Who should be responsible for fixing the problems with blacks in the US?

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Apr 25, 2002
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I would make a response but Heresy basically said everything I was going to say, so why make the same post twice?

Heresy is right when he says blacks are still slaves mentally, economically and sometimes physically. I've brought up these issues in my previous post about blacks being slaves mentally or holding onto the slave mentality. And you know what? You couldn't give a response to it.

Great post Heresy
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
I don't need to answer any basic questions posed to me to prove any person wrong. Why did you ask me these questions.. to test my knowledge on the statistics of the black community?
NO! I ASKED YOU THOSE QUESTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE RELEVENT TO THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY. IM NOT TRYING TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT. WHAT I WANT YOU TO DO IS LOOK AT THE *REAL* PROBLEMS IN THE COMMUNITY. IM NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOU OR PERSUADE YOU.
I don't need numbers in order to see a problem, I need my eyes and ears.
WHY ARE YOU NOT DISCUSSING THESE PROBLEMS? THESE ARE *PROBLEMS* WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. NOT *OPINIONS* AND WHAT YOU "THINK" ARE PROBLEMS. BLACKS NOT LISTENING TO WHITES IS NOT A DOCUMENTED CASE/PROBLEM. BLACK ON BLACK CRIME IS. BLACKS FEELING THAT WHITES WHO HELP WHITES ARE RACIST IS NOT A PROBLEM IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. BLACK ECONOMICS AND NETWORKING ARE. YOUR EYES AND EARS ARE CLOSED. THESE ARE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS YET YOU REFUSE TO ELABORATE.
You have yet to provide answers to any of your own questions, so you are obviously not trying to help me understand your point of view.
YOU DONT SEE THE QUESTIONS AS PROBLEMS. YOU SEE THE QUESTIONS AS A MATCH OF WITS. WHEN YOU STOP LOOKING AT IT LIKE THAT WE CAN DISCUSS SERIOUS ISSUES.
I know that there are more black people with AIDS then whites, I know there are more white owned companies and television networks then black, I know what you are asking in all of your questions, but just because I can't give you exact numbers your going to sit there and tell me im in no position to make any of my statements and that I don't understand? You are wrong here, regardless your admittance.
LISTEN. I CAN CARE LESS IF YOU CAN GIVE ME EXACT NUMBERS HOWEVER THAT DOES PROVE ME RIGHT WHEN I SAY YOU KNOW *NOTHING* ABOUT PROBLEMS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. SO YOU CANT GIVE ME THE EXACT NUMBERS? BIG DEAL!!! WHAT I WANT YOU TO GIVE ME IS YOUR INSIGHT AND SOLUTIONS TO:

BLACK POVERTY
BLACK ON BLACK CRIME
THE AIDS RATE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY
BLACK EDUCATION


SO FAR YOU HAVE FAILED TO GO IN DEPTH.
He poses questions such as these, because he feels that because he read the answers in a book, that he knows something that not eveyone might, and somehow it make him superior to those he argues.
I POSE THESE QUESTIONS TO YOU SO YOU CAN SEE THAT BLACKS ARE *STILL* SLAVES ECONOMICALLY,MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY. I DONT POSE THEM TO YOU TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD. I DONT NEED TO INSULT YOU OR GET YOU IN A JAM TO MAKE ME LOOK GOOD. WHAT I WANT TO DISCUSS ARE PROBLEMS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND WHO SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR FIXING THEM. HOWEVER *BEFORE* THAT CAN BE ADDRESSED ONE MUST LOOK TO THE *ROOT* OF THE PROBLEM.
When he is left riddled in confusion he results to asking these questions in order to dig himself out of a hole. "The statistics he knows, they show problems exist, I know of these problems, I simply don't know the exact number." Does this really make me unintelligent? Does this mean I am in no position to comment on any African American problems? You are wrong Tom.
TOM IS A GOOD NAME. UNCLE TOM TRIED TO FREE THE SLAVES. IT WAS SAMBO WHO IDENTIFIED WITH HIS CRUEL OPPRESOR

"MASSAH I BE HABBIN TO LISSEN TO EBREAYTHANG YU SAY MAASUH. I BE NEEDIN TO HANG ON YO EBREY WHIM TO SURBIBE N DIS CRUE WORL MASSAH. MASSAH I BE A GOO LIL BOY N NOT BE READIN AND WRITIN FO MASELF LIK DEM ODER SLABES U BE HABBIN MASSA"

NOW PAY ATTENION. IF YOU KNOW OF THESE PROBLEMS WHY ARE YOU NOT DISCUSSING THEM???? THESE ARE PROBLEMS THAT *SEVERAL* PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD HAVE BROUGHT UP. *YOU* FAIL TO ELABORATE ON THEM. YOU ARE IN POSITION TO COMMENT ON PROBLEMS. HOWEVER YOU ARENT COMMENTING ON "PROBLEMS". THATS THE DIFFERENCE. WE WANT TO DISCUSS BLACK ECONOMICS AND BLACK ON BLACK CRIME. YOU WANT TO DISCUSS BLACKS NOT LISTENING TO WHITES.

IF YOU DONT KNOW STATISTICS THAT DOESNT MAKE YOU UNINTELLIGENT. IF YOU KNOW THE STATISTICS THAT DOESNT MAKE YOU INTELLIGENT. PERSONALLY I WILL GO ON THE RECORD AND SAY YOU ARE "LIMITED" IN YOUR KNOWLEDGE. SPECIFICALLY KNOWLEDGE PERTAINING TO THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY. THAT DOESNT MAKE IT A BAD THING BECAUSE YOU CAN LEARN. IT CAN BE A BAD THING WHEN YOU REFUSE TO LEARN AND ELABORATE ON WHAT YOU KNOW/LEARNED.
When I see an African American kid, poor and hungry sitting in a rough ass neighborhood, someone who needs help, why the fuck do I need to know the exact number of people like this, I know there are to many, that is all that really matters.
CAN YOU ARTICULATE WITHOUT USING FOUL LANGUAGE? ARE YOU UPSET? NOW YOU ARE HINTING ON A PROBLEM IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. POVERTY. HOW CAN *WE* REDUCE THE NUMBERS OF BLACK KIDS THAT ARE POUR AND HUNGRY? HOW CAN WE GET THEM RESOURCES? DO THEY KNOW ABOUT THE RESOURCES THAT MAY BE AVAILIABLE?
In order to help the problem that there are a big number of black people with aids, why is it important to know the ratio to white people?
BECAUSE IT DEALS WITH THE EXPLOITION OF BLACK SEXUALITY, HOW ITS CULTIVATED AND PROMOTED. ITS IMPORTANT TO KNOW HOW THE RATIO COMPARES BECAUSE WHITES ARE THE MAJORITY IN COMPARISON TO BLACKS. WHY ARE THE NUMBERS DIFFERENT? IS IT BECAUSE MORE WHITES USE CONDOMS? IS IT BECAUSE OF POPULATION PER SQUARE MILE? IS IT DUE TO *RESOURCES* THAT WHITES HAVE ACCESS TO THAT BLACKS DONT EVEN KNOW EXIST? DEMOGRAPHICS AND STATISTICS ARE RELEVENT.
Tell me why I need to know the ratio of Black owned television stations to white, in order to help the poverty situation?
YOU *SHOULD* KNOW THEM SO YOU CAN ELABORATE ON BLACK ECONOMICS AND BUSINESS. WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE NUMBERS/RATIOS YOU WILL SEE THAT BLACKS ARE IN ECONOMIC SLAVERY. WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE RATIOS YOU WILL SEE THAT BLACKS *TRIED* TO OWN COMPANIES.


WHEN YOU KNOW THE NUMBERS YOU WILL SEE THAT BLACKS ARE *NOT* ON THE LEVEL OF WHITES DUE TO CERTAIN ACTIONS BY WHITES *AND* BLACKS. ONCE AGAIN 90% OF THE MUSIC BIZ IS COMPRISED OF MINORITIES. MINORITIES DONT OWN 10% OF THAT BUSINESS IN WHICH THEY ARE THE *MAJORITY*. THIS LEADS TO THE EXPLOITION OF BLACK LABOR,CULTURE AND IDEAS FOR MONETARY VALUE. THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT *NEEDS* TO BE ADDRESSED.
You know what, fuck numbers, I know there are problems in this world and I don't need you to test me on this shit.
YOU SEEM TO BE UPSET. I DONT KNOW YOU BUT YOUR IRRATIONAL RANTS AND CURSE WORDS MAKE IT SEEM LIKE YOU'RE ANGRY.

1.IM NOT TESTING YOU ON YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE NUMBERS.

2.I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS BECAUSE THEY WILL ALLOW US TO LOOK AT THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN A MORE "PRECISE" FASHION.
You are a selfish man, and I feel you care more about yourself then helping anybody in this world.
YOUR OPINION. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO IT.
You just want to be heard, you want a podium and a MIC so you can get your biased opinion out.
I HAVE THOSE ALREADY. TWO MIC STANDS AND 3 MICS. MY OPINIONS ARE BIASED YET I SAID I AGREED WITH SOME OF YOURS....
Pay attention and Note that everything this guy has said in this post, and almost everything he has said in this thread, has absulutely nothing to do with the topic.
NOT TRUE. EVERYTHING I HAVE POSTED IS RELEVENT TO THE PROBLEMS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND FIXING THE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN PROPERLY IDENTIFIED.
He changed the topic from "who should be responsible for fixing black problems" to "who knows more about the statistics of black problems".
I DID NOT CHANGE THE TOPIC THE TOPIC STILL STANDS. WE ARE DISCUSSING PROBLEMS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. PROBLEMS SUCH AS BLACK ECONOMICS,SEXUALITY,CULTURE,CRIME,MORTALITY RATE AND EDUCATION. BEFORE WE CAN DISCUSS WHO SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE WE NEED TO DISCUSS *WHAT* THEY SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR.
Game Over
WE HAVENT STARTED YET.
Good Day Tom.
GOOD NIGHT "RICHARD" (DICK).


:classic: :classic: :classic:


:h:

EXCUSE MY TYPOS PETER.
 
1. "one thing keeping racism alive as strongly as it exists today is people like you guys on this board who think that “black” people are still slaves"

This is concerning those that think every incident in life is racialy motivated. For example, a student having a teacher tell her that her paper is not original, she assumes it is because she is black. When something like this occurs over and over hate begins to develope and problems start to exist.


1. Well...I never said that I thought EVERY incident in life is racially motivated. In this particular situation, I did. And that is my right.
2. Look at it like this...If you had one ear, and over & over throughout your childhood, kids teased you about having one ear. If you were picked last to be on a dodgeball team, your first reaction would probably be that you were picked last because you had one ear. This may or may not be true, as in the situation with my teacher. But this is how human perception works. Your perceptions are based on past experiences & emotions.


Thank you for your time.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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Locahontas said:
Here's the Black Wall Street Story for anyone interested:

http://www.blackwallstreet.freeservers.com/The Story.htm
Thanks for the black wallstreet link....

It was such a devestating event. You down right had to be a devil, unconcious, wicked, inhuman in order to do such atrocities to a group of people...And these weren't just a few people, these were white people by big numbers. And if you weren't apart of it, a lot of whites condoned such atrocities. You see them huddle around and watch lynchings like it was some kind of celebration.

Incredible, devestating and demoralizing to the black community.

Imagine if these 600 businesses were still around today?



The body of a dead Black man is displayed out in the open for other Black men to view as they were being "Interned" at the convention center during the worst riot in US History. This hidden part of history is fully exposed on this site. Learn how over 15,000 Black people were left homeless then run out of town and thousands were killed or wounded by fellow white Americans on May 31st, 1921.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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PURE WICKEDNESS!!!

AP Documents Land Taken From Blacks Through Trickery, Violence and Murder

By TODD LEWAN and DOLORES BARCLAY
Associated Press Writers

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For generations, black families passed down the tales in uneasy whispers: ''They stole our land.'' These were family secrets shared after the children fell asleep, after neighbors turned down the lamps - old stories locked in fear and shame.

Some of those whispered bits of oral history, it turns out, are true.

In an 18-month investigation, The Associated Press documented a pattern in which black Americans were cheated out of their land or driven from it through intimidation, violence and even murder.

In some cases, government officials approved the land takings; in others, they took part in them. The earliest occurred before the Civil War; others are being litigated today.

Some of the land taken from black families has become a country club in Virginia, oil fields in Mississippi, a major-league baseball spring training facility in Florida.

The United States has a long history of bitter, often violent land disputes, from claim jumping in the gold fields to range wars in the old West to broken treaties with American Indians. Poor white landowners, too, were sometimes treated unfairly, pressured to sell out at rock-bottom prices by railroads and lumber and mining companies.

The fate of black landowners has been an overlooked part of this story.

The AP - in an investigation that included interviews with more than 1,000 people and the examination of tens of thousands of public records in county courthouses and state and federal archives - documented 107 land takings in 13 Southern and border states.
In those cases alone, 406 black landowners lost more than 24,000 acres of farm and timber land plus 85 smaller properties, including stores and city lots.

Today, virtually all of this property, valued at tens of millions of dollars, is owned by whites or by corporations.

Properties taken from blacks were often small - a 40-acre farm, a general store, a modest house. But the losses were devastating to families struggling to overcome the legacy of slavery. In the agrarian South, land ownership was the ladder to respect and prosperity - the means to building economic security and passing wealth on to the next generation. When black families lost their land, they lost all of this.

Besides the 107 cases the AP documented, reporters found evidence of scores of other land takings that could not be fully verified because of gaps or inconsistencies in the public record. Thousands of additional reports of land takings from black families remain uninvestigated.

Two thousand have been collected in recent years by the Penn Center on St. Helena Island, S.C., an educational institution established for freed slaves during the Civil War. The Land Loss Prevention Project, a group of lawyers in Durham, N.C., who represent blacks in land disputes, said it receives new reports daily. And Heather Gray of the Federation of Southern Cooperatives in Atlanta said her organization has ''file cabinets full of complaints.''

AP's findings ''are just the tip of one of the biggest crimes of this country's history,'' said Ray Winbush, director of Fisk University's Institute of Race Relations.

Some examples of land takings documented by the AP:

•After midnight on Oct. 4, 1908, 50 hooded white men surrounded the home of a black farmer in Hickman, Ky., and ordered him to come out for a whipping. When David Walker refused and shot at them instead, the mob poured coal oil on his house and set it afire, according to contemporary newspaper accounts. Pleading for mercy, Walker ran out the front door, followed by four screaming children and his wife, carrying a baby in her arms. The mob shot them all, wounding three children and killing the others. Walker's oldest son never escaped the burning house. No one was ever charged with the killings, and the surviving children were deprived of the farm their father died defending. Land records show that Walker's 2 1/2-acre farm was simply folded into the property of a white neighbor. The neighbor soon sold it to another man, whose daughter owns the undeveloped land today.

• In the 1950s and 1960s, a Chevrolet dealer in Holmes County, Miss., acquired hundreds of acres from black farmers by foreclosing on small loans for farm equipment and pickup trucks. Norman Weathersby, then the only dealer in the area, required the farmers to put up their land as security for the loans, county residents who dealt with him said. And the equipment he sold them, they said, often broke down shortly thereafter. Weathersby's friend, William E. Strider, ran the local Farmers Home Administration - the credit lifeline for many Southern farmers. Area residents, including Erma Russell, 81, said Strider, now dead, was often slow in releasing farm operating loans to blacks. When cash-poor farmers missed payments owed to Weathersby, he took their land. The AP documented eight cases in which Weathersby acquired black-owned farms this way. When he died in 1973, he left more than 700 acres of this land to his family, according to estate papers, deeds and court records.

• In 1964, the state of Alabama sued Lemon Williams and Lawrence Hudson, claiming the cousins had no right to two 40-acre farms their family had worked in Sweet Water, Ala., for nearly a century. The land, officials contended, belonged to the state. Circuit Judge Emmett F. Hildreth urged the state to drop its suit, declaring it would result in ''a severe injustice.'' But when the state refused, saying it wanted income from timber on the land, the judge ruled against the family. Today, the land lies empty; the state recently opened some of it to logging. The state's internal memos and letters on the case are peppered with references to the family's race.

In the same courthouse where the case was heard, the AP located deeds and tax records documenting that the family had owned the land since an ancestor bought the property on Jan. 3, 1874. Surviving records also show the family paid property taxes on the farms from the mid-1950s until the land was taken.

AP reporters tracked the land cases by reviewing deeds, mortgages, tax records, estate papers, court proceedings, surveyor maps, oil and gas leases, marriage records, census listings, birth records, death certificates and Freedmen's Bureau archives. Additional documents, including FBI files and Farmers Home Administration records, were obtained through the Freedom of Information Act.

The AP interviewed black families that lost land, as well as lawyers, title searchers, historians, appraisers, genealogists, surveyors, land activists, and local, state and federal officials.

The AP also talked to current owners of the land, nearly all of whom acquired the properties years after the land takings occurred. Most said they knew little about the history of their land. When told about it, most expressed regret.

Weathersby's son, John, 62, who now runs the dealership in Indianola, Miss., said he had little direct knowledge about his father's business affairs. However, he said he was sure his father never would have sold defective vehicles and that he always treated people fairly.
Alabama Gov. Don Siegelman examined the state's files on the Sweet Water case after an inquiry from the AP. He said he found them ''disturbing'' and has asked the state attorney general to review the matter.

''What I have asked the attorney general to do,'' he said, ''is look not only at the letter of the law but at what is fair and right.''

The land takings are part of a larger picture - a 91-year decline in black landownership in America.

In 1910, black Americans owned more farmland than at any time before or since - at least 15 million acres. Nearly all of it was in the South, largely in Mississippi, Alabama and the Carolinas, according to the U.S. Agricultural Census. Today, blacks own only 1.1 million of the country's more than 1 billion acres of arable land. They are part owners of another 1.07 million acres.

The number of white farmers has declined over the last century, too, as economic trends have concentrated land in fewer, often corporate, hands. However, black ownership has declined 2 1/2 times faster than white ownership, the U.S. Civil Rights Commission noted in a 1982 report, the last comprehensive federal study on the trend.

The decline in black landownership had a number of causes, including the discriminatory lending practices of the Farmers Home Administration and the migration of blacks from the rural South to industrial centers in the North and West.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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However, the land takings also contributed. In the decades between Reconstruction and the civil rights struggle, black families were powerless to prevent them, said Stuart E. Tolnay, a University of Washington sociologist and co-author of a book on lynchings. In an era when black Americans could not drink from the same water fountains as whites and black men were lynched for whistling at white women, few blacks dared to challenge whites. Those who did could rarely find lawyers to take their cases or judges who would give them a fair hearing.

The Rev. Isaac Simmons was an exception. When his land was taken, he found a lawyer and tried to fight back.

In 1942, his 141-acre farm in Amite County, Miss., was sold for nonpayment of taxes, property records show. The farm, for which his father had paid $302 in 1887, was bought by a white man for $180.

Only partial, tattered tax records for the period exist today in the county courthouse; but they are enough to show that tax payments on at least part of the property were current when the land was taken.

Simmons hired a lawyer in February 1944 and filed suit to get his land back. On March 26, a group of whites paid Simmons a visit.

The minister's daughter, Laura Lee Houston, now 74, recently recalled her terror as she stood with her month-old baby in her arms and watched the men drag Simmons away. ''I screamed and hollered so loud,'' she said. ''They came toward me and I ran down in the woods.''

The whites then grabbed Simmons' son, Eldridge, from his house and drove the two men to a lonely road.

''Two of them kept beating me,'' Eldridge Simmons later told the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. ''They kept telling me that my father and I were 'smart niggers' for going to see a lawyer.''

Simmons, who has since died, said his captors gave him 10 days to leave town and told his father to start running. Later that day, the minister's body turned up with three gunshot wounds in the back, The McComb Enterprise newspaper reported at the time.

Today, the Simmons land - thick with timber and used for hunting - is privately owned and is assessed at $33,660. (Officials assess property for tax purposes, and the valuation is usually less than its market value.)

Over the past 20 years, a handful of black families have sued to regain their ancestral lands. State courts, however, have dismissed their cases on grounds that statutes of limitations had expired.


Holman Stadium in Vero Beach, Fla., was built on land once owned by the Espy family
AP/Ron Frehm [16K]
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A group of attorneys led by Harvard University law professor Charles J. Ogletree has been making inquries recently about land takings. The group has announced its intention to file a national class-action lawsuit in pursuit of reparations for slavery and racial discrimination. However, some legal experts say redress for many land takings may not be possible unless laws are changed.

As the acres slipped away, so did treasured pieces of family history - cabins crafted by a grandfather's hand, family graves in shaded groves.

But ''the home place'' meant more than just that. Many blacks have found it ''very difficult to transfer wealth from one generation to the next,'' because they had trouble holding onto land, said Paula Giddings, a history professor at Duke University.

The Espy family in Vero Beach, Fla., lost its heritage in 1942, when the U.S. government seized its land through eminent domain to build an airfield. Government agencies frequently take land this way for public purposes under rules that require fair compensation for the owners.
In Vero Beach, however, the Navy appraised the Espys' 147 acres, which included a 30-acre fruit grove, two houses and 40 house lots, at $8,000, according to court records. The Espys sued, and an all-white jury awarded them $13,000. That amounted to one-sixth of the price per acre that the Navy paid white neighbors for similar land with fewer improvements, records show.

After World War II, the Navy gave the airfield to the city of Vero Beach. Ignoring the Espys' plea to buy back their land, the city sold part of it, at $1,500 an acre, to the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1965 as a spring training facility.

In 1999, the former Navy land, with parts of Dodgertown and a municipal airport, was assessed at $6.19 million. Sixty percent of that land once belonged to the Espys. The team sold its property to Indian River County for $10 million in August, according to Craig Callan, a Dodgers official.

The true extent of land takings from black families will never be known because of gaps in property and tax records in many rural Southern counties. The AP found crumbling tax records, deed books with pages torn from them, file folders with documents missing, and records that had been crudely altered.

In Jackson Parish, La., 40 years of moldy, gnawed tax and mortgage records were piled in a cellar behind a roll of Christmas lights and a wooden reindeer. In Yazoo County, Miss., volumes of tax and deed records filled a classroom in an abandoned school, the papers coated with white dust from a falling ceiling. The AP retrieved dozens of documents that custodians said were earmarked for shredders or landfills.

The AP also found that about a third of the county courthouses in Southern and border states have burned - some more than once - since the Civil War. Some of the fires were deliberately set.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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On the night of Sept. 10, 1932, for example, 15 whites torched the courthouse in Paulding, Miss., where property records for the eastern half of Jasper County, then predominantly black, were stored. Records for the predominantly white western half of the county were safe in another courthouse miles away.

The door to the Paulding courthouse's safe, which protected the records, had been locked the night before, the Jasper County News reported at the time. The next morning, the safe was found open, most of the records reduced to ashes.

Suddenly, it was unclear who owned a big piece of eastern Jasper County.

Even before the courthouse fire, landownership in Jasper County was contentious. According to historical accounts, the Ku Klux Klan, resentful that blacks were buying and profiting from land, had been attacking black-owned farms, burning houses, lynching black farmers and chasing black landowners away.

The Masonite Corp., a wood products company, was one of the largest landowners in the area. Because most of the land records had been destroyed, the company went to court in December 1937 to clear its title. Masonite believed it owned 9,581 acres and said in court papers that it had been unable to locate anyone with a rival claim to the land.
A month later, the court ruled the company had clear title to the land, which has since yielded millions of dollars in natural gas, timber and oil, according to state records.

From the few property records that remain, the AP was able to document that at least 204.5 of those acres had been acquired by Masonite after black owners were driven off by the Klan. At least 850,000 barrels of oil have been pumped from this property, according to state oil and gas board records and figures from the Petroleum Techno logy Transfer Council, an industry group.

Today, the land is owned by International Paper Corp., which acquired Masonite in 1988. Jenny Boardman, a company spokeswoman, said International Paper had been unaware of the ''tragic'' history of the land and was concerned about AP's findings.

''This is probably part of a much larger, public debate about whether there should be restitution for people who have been harmed in the past,'' she said. ''And by virtue of the fact that we now own these lands, we should be part of that discussion.''

Even when Southern courthouses remained standing, mistrust and fear of white authority long kept blacks away from record rooms, where documents often were segregated into ''white'' and ''colored.'' Many elderly blacks say they still remember how they were snubbed by court clerks, spat upon and even struck.

Today, however, fear and shame have given way to pride. Interest in genealogy among black families is surging, and some black Americans are unearthing the documents behind those whispered stories.

''People are out there wondering: What ever happened to Grandma's land?'' said Loretta Carter Hanes, 75, a retired genealogist. ''They knew that their grandparents shed a lot of blood and tears to get it.''

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Bryan Logan, a 55-year-old sports writer from Washington, D.C., was researching his heritage when he uncovered a connection to 264 acres of riverfront property in Richmond, Va.

Today, the land is Willow Oaks, an almost exclusively white country club with an assessed value of $2.94 million. But in the 1850s, it was a corn-and-wheat plantation worked by the Howlett slaves - Logan's ancestors.

Their owner, Thomas Howlett, directed in his will that his 15 slaves be freed, that his plantation be sold and that the slaves receive the proceeds. When he died in 1856, his white relatives challenged the will, but two courts upheld it.

Yet the freed slaves never got a penny.

Benjamin Hatcher, the executor of the estate, simply took over the plantation, court records show. He cleared the timber and mined the stone, providing granite for the Navy and War Department buildings in Washington and the capitol in Richmond, according to records in the National Archives.

When the Civil War ended in 1865, the former slaves complained to the occupying Union Army, which ordered Virginia courts to investigate.

Hatcher testified that he had sold the plantation in 1862 - apparently to his son, Thomas - but had not given the proceeds to the former slaves. Instead, court papers show, the proceeds were invested on their behalf in Confederate War Bonds. There is nothing in the public record to suggest the former slaves wanted their money used to support the Southern war effort.

Moreover, the bonds were purchased in the former slaves' names in 1864 - a dubious investment at best in the fourth year of the war. Within months, Union armies were marching on Atlanta and Richmond, and the bonds were worthless pieces of paper.

The blacks insisted they were never given even that, but in 1871, Virginia's highest court ruled that Hatcher was innocent of wrongdoing and that the former slaves were owed nothing.

The following year, the plantation was broken up and sold at a public auction. Hatcher's son received the proceeds, county records show. In the 1930s, a Richmond businessman cobbled the estate back together; he sold it to Willow Oaks Corp. in 1955 for an unspecified amount.

''I don't hold anything against Willow Oaks,'' Logan said. ''But how Virginia's courts acted, how they allowed the land to be stolen - it goes against everything America stands for.''

EDITOR'S NOTE - Associated Press Writers Woody Baird, Allen G. Breed, Shelia Hardwell Byrd, Alan Clendenning, Ron Harrist, David Lieb and Bill Poovey, and investigative researcher Randy Herschaft contributed to this report.
 
May 6, 2002
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Damn what Tenk posted hits too close to home. Especially "According to historical accounts, the Ku Klux Klan, resentful that blacks were buying and profiting from land, had been attacking black-owned farms, burning houses, lynching black farmers and chasing black landowners away. " My family went thru this for generations in Virginia and to this day we still aint got all our land back.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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GUILLOTINE said:
Damn what Tenk posted hits too close to home. Especially "According to historical accounts, the Ku Klux Klan, resentful that blacks were buying and profiting from land, had been attacking black-owned farms, burning houses, lynching black farmers and chasing black landowners away. " My family went thru this for generations in Virginia and to this day we still aint got all our land back.
One of the most important thing in economics is land, if you have land you have the abililty to do endless things on it. Land is crucial especially to blacks, losing all those acres all across the country is DEVESTATING.

I HONESTLY can't imagine how someone could have soo much HATE for a group of people. To have that type of hate it's like being conscious without a conscious. People think slavery is our only thing to "complain" about. FUCK NO!! It's more than slavery it's fucking bullshit like this after slavery that has caused black problems. Stealing land from black folks, bombing businesses in massive numbers, Jim Crow Law, discrimination in the work force that contribute to black suffering. You mix in ignorant black folks and here we are now...

The funny thing is that a lot of black folks don't know about Black Wall Street, and the land that was stolen. Maybe if they were taught this in school there would be some black folks now that would want to ressurect black wall street. Thats why I say that we need more African/African American history taught. I think private schools is the way to go, I can see some uproar about black folks asking public schools to incorporate black teachings.
 
May 8, 2002
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EDJ said:
MCLEANHATCH,
EVEN THOUgH YOU LOST YOUR RIgHT TO ADDRESS ME(CAUSE YOU WOULD KILL YOUR OWN FAMILY IF IT CAME DOWN TO IT, THAT'S FUCCED UP), I'LL MAKE THIS EXCEPTION.
you need to quit LYING i NEVER said that!!!!!! stop EXAGERATING


EDJ said:
MCLEANHATCH,
ALL WHAT YOU STRESSED IS FINE AND DANDY CAUSE IN SOME KIND OF FORM OR FASHION, WE HAVE TO BE PERCEPTIVE. THE THANg WITH NITRO IS THAT HE HAS NO BUSINESS TRYIN' TO JUDgE OTHAS WHILE HE'S WORKIN'. NOBODY gAVE HIM THAT "AUTHORITY". HE SHOULD JUST DO HIS JOB INSTEAD OF TRYIN' TO FIgURE MUTHA-FUKAS OUT, WHICH IS IRRELEVANT TO HIS JOB.
last time i checked this was a free country and there was no law against "thought" or what you think of in your mind
 
May 8, 2002
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Nitro the Guru said:
Now, for everyone to read. You just called me a racist. Now justify your comments on calling me a that, all while mainting the worth of your every comment on here about me judging people, and in doing so, being labed a racist.
and wasnt he saying something to the extend that people have no right to judge others.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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Locahontas said:
@Tenk...so you're thinkin along the lines of some type of private school marketed towards African-American students that teaches these 'black-based' subjects? If so, good idea, if not...then I had a good idea!
Yeah I would say that there will be a lot of Afrocentric focus BUT it could be geared towards all different types of people that live in the innercity. I'd love to have classes that deal with the issues of what these kids go through in there neighborhood. Teach USEFUL material, material that they could take and use NOW, material where they could help battle the problems in there neighborhood. You have to preach communication and teamwork, because thats the only way you can battle all of this stuff.
 
Mar 18, 2003
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HERESY said:
these are NOT problems rather they are OPINIONS. what you are listing is what YOU believe the problem is. however you have said NOTHING relevent about BLACK ECONOMICS,PHYSICAL OR MENTAL SLAVERY. BLACK PEOPLE ARE *STILL* SLAVES.
These are problems that I see with my own eyes, regardless weather you want to acknowledge them or not. I have said nothing relevant to black economics or mental slavery... what the fuck is your point? I don't know a great deal about them, nor did I ever claim to. That statement would be usefull had I said I knew everything about the black community, or I knew every problem. I see things from a different perspective, I see some problems that you are blind to, and I listed just a few of them, and got the typical response that I expected.

HERESY said:
*YOU* ARE NOT CAPABLE OF DOING THAT.
Wrong. You are not capable of doing that. I am more then willing to talk about what I know, and open my ears to that which I don't. If you would stop trying to argue every single thing I say, then maybe that would be possible.

HERESY said:
THIS HAS TO BE THE DUMBEST ANALOGY I HAVE *EVER* READ ON THE SICCNESS. "WHY" DOES THE CHILD FEEL THAT WAY? YOU KNOW WHAT FORGET IT..
I have seen you make that statement to just about everyone you argue on this board, I think its safe to say it has lost any meaning it ever carried. Yeah it would be in your own best interest to forget this part.

HERESY said:
BTW *ALL* OF THESE PROBLEMS YOU ARE PRESENTING ARE PURE SPECULATION AND BASED ON OPINION. THEY CANNOT BE SUBSTANIATED BY FACT. LETS TALK ABOUT *REAL* PROBLEMS IN TEH BLACK COMMUNITY. LIKE THE AIDS RATE AMONGST BLACK MEN AND WOMEN 14-30.
No, these are all based on what I see and hear. I don't need the stats to be on paper for me to know they exist. Your just upset that I have presented you with problems that I see, and your only reply is to try and discredit them by saying they are opinion and I don't have proof. What is proof.. somebody going and asking a thousand people and getting an average? Now you can take what I have said in acknowledgement, or you can argue your life away just to try and discredit my words. Makes no difference to me, my belief's on the matter won't change, until I see a change.

HERESY said:
THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE STATEMENT IS YOUR OPINION IT CANT BE VALIDATED WITH ANY STATISTICS.
LOL @ Statistics. Go read the above statement & reply, and have your fix of proof.

HERESY said:
IM NOT ASKING YOU QUESTIONS TO PROVE ME RIGHT. IM ASKING YOU QUESTIONS TO SEE IF YOU *UNDERSTAND* THE CONDITION OF TEH BLACK COMMUNITY. YOUR "PROBLEMS" ARENT PROBLEMS. THEY ARE *YOUR* BELIEFS.
I understand the condition of the black community, to a certain extent. In other words, there are many things I don't know about, but I never claimed to. My problems are problems, you just refuse to accept them.

HERESY said:
THE PROBLEMS THAT I ELABORATE ON (WHICH YOU REFUSE TO PARTAKE IN)
Where do you get this idea that I refuse to partake in any of these subjects? All you keep saying is "lets talk about this, lets talk about that" but you have yet to address any of these matters yourself. You are a LIAR.

HERESY said:
FOCUS ON ALL RACES BUT YOU CANT HELP OTHERS IF YOU CANT HELP YOURSELF. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH HELPING ALL RACES. I SAID THAT (IN ONE OF MY FIRST POSTS). HOWEVER FOCUS *NEEDS* TO BE PLACED ON THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND ITS PROBLEMS. WANNA KNOW WHO NEEDS TO LOOK AT IT MORE CLEARLY? *BLACK PEOPLE*!!!!
I completely agree.

HERESY said:
I DONT THINK ANYONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT.COMPARE *YOUR* PROBLEMS TO *MY* PROBLEMS. WHAT YOU LISTED IS NOT BASED ON ANY FACTUAL FINDINGS OR DOCUMENTED REPORTS. THEY ARE YOUR OPINIONS AND *VIEWS* ABOUT THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND BLACK/WHITE RELATIONS. MY LIST DEALS WITH *SPECIFIC* PROBLEMS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. YOU HAVE *NOT* LISTED *ONE* PROBLEM IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

YOU HAVE NOT ELABORATED ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE,BLACKS ON WELFARE,BLACKS IN PRISON,BLACK CRIME,BLACK EDUCATION,BLACK SEXUALITY AND EXPLOITATION ETC ETC ETC.
That is because these are problems, that to my knowledge are already know by me you and everyone else in this thread. If you want to talk about them, then I am all for it. I am trying to shed some light on problems that are not widely known or talked about by ANYONE. You can talk all you want about how I don't have "stats" on my problems, but save yourself some time because it isn't going to satisfy anyone other then you, Tenk and your cheerleaders. As far as I am concerned, they will still exist, end of story.

HERESY said:
THESE ARE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS YET YOU REFUSE TO ELABORATE. YOU DONT SEE THE QUESTIONS AS PROBLEMS. YOU SEE THE QUESTIONS AS A MATCH OF WITS. WHEN YOU STOP LOOKING AT IT LIKE THAT WE CAN DISCUSS SERIOUS ISSUES.
Wrong. I know the questions you ask are problems, problems I know that exist, which is why I question the relevance. I think you see the questions as a battle of wits, i just question it.

Now the rest of your post is continually questioning me about my knowledge about the African American community and the problems that plauge it. I gave you insight on some of the problems I see, weather you want to believe them or not is up to you, but I know them to be true. As to how often, when, and where, are all questions that I cannot answer. I use vulgar language in my posts and quite often in life not because I am angry, but to better express what it is that I have to say. You accuse me of not elaborating on specific problems you present, but neither have you, for that you are a hypocrite. If you want to talk about these things then do it, don't talk about talking about them.