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CZAR

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Aug 25, 2003
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You always fall back to that. I've said countless times on here, I can't stand Floyd outside of the ring, but inside of the ring he's been great. He could've been an all time great if he would've tested himself more but he cherry picked or waited too long for certain fights. I think most hardcore fans feel that way. Leonard, Hearns, and Duran tested themselves, took some L's and no one really criticizes them for it. Floyd talks about how he thinks he's the best ever, a lot of hardcore fans are going to take issue with that because it's a diss to the history of the sport. But he's great, no question.
No you guys just dont see your hate for Floyd thats all. Your hate for him outside the ring shows even when discussing him. Its all good though no worries. Got Em!!

yeah I'm a fan of GGG and I've discussed ways I think he can be beat as well. This is a thread to discuss all things boxing.
Well its no big thing to discuss how to beat GGG. He has done anything in boxing yet? He is still building his fan base in America and really hasnt fought anyone accept Hobo with a Shotgun lol. Big difference. Might as well discuss how to beat Wilder next lol. Got Em!!
 
May 13, 2002
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Well its no big thing to discuss how to beat GGG. He has done anything in boxing yet? He is still building his fan base in America and really hasnt fought anyone accept Hobo with a Shotgun lol. Big difference. Might as well discuss how to beat Wilder next lol. Got Em!!
Your comprehensive skills suck. About as good as Floyds reading skills. It's like you're incapable of following a discussion.
 
Feb 10, 2006
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But at least he was getting paid! Now what will happen next? He will co-main event with Floyd on Cinco de Mayo vs Carl Froch? He looses money there cuz HBO was planning on giving him the full on main event ppv money. Even then, HBO is on a mission to hurt Showtime's money at any cost meaning less money for Floyd, less money for JCC. I hope Devon Alexander KO's Khan and destroys Haymon's plans.
 

HERESY

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In my opinion, even a wildly swinging guy like Maidana would've beaten Floyd with a higher output.
There is no way a wildly swinging guy is going to throw 1000 punches. He's going to gas out. And again, throwing that high of a number against a counter puncher is suicide.

He gets tired. Obviously, just throwing 1000 punches won't beat him. But if you're able to get him on the ropes and can punch all night, I like that guys chance.
Again, you can throw a lot of punches on the ropes but how many of those punches are effective punches? He's slipping, he's parrying the punches, using his glove and rolling his shoulder. In other words, he isn't taking damage like another person in a similar situation would.

You're also comparing numbers from when Floyd moved a hell of a lot more than he does now and really prove my point,
No, I'm showing you the numbers of the fighters you introduced to the discussion. What I've also shown you is that his numbers either avg out or increase depending on who he is fighting. So to say you can beat him by throwing 1000 punches or even because you have a higher output means nothing when the numbers show that isn't the case.

he can be beaten by throwing less than a 1000.
So why is he still undefeated? One minute you're saying he can be beaten by throwing 1000 now you're saying he can be beaten by throwing less than 1000. So which is it?

Castillo threw and landed more than Floyd in that first fight.
And? Look at the percentages again. Floyd threw around 60 less punches and landed 40 less. Now here is what you're not getting, look at Floyd's Jabs thrown at 297 and landing 91 for 31%. Now look at Castillio's 129 thrown and 30 landed for 23%. You have an 8% difference between the two and that is huge. Now look at the power shots. You have Floyd throwing 30 more power shots than Castillo throwing jabs and Castillo throwing close to 380 power shots yet the percentages between both is only 2%. Think about that for a minute.

And if they fought, I think GGG would beat Floyd.
They wouldn't fight. No way Floyd moves up and no way GGG moves down, not even for a catch weight.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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Here are stats http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Jose_Luis_Castillo_vs._Floyd_Mayweather_Jr._(1st_meeting)

Yes Floyd landed and threw more jabs however that's irrelevant since his jabs were not effective, they didn't slow down or stop Castillo from getting on the inside and landing power shots and more effective punches.
I'd say that is what contributed to the scores being the way they were. To throw that many jabs and have that high a percentage, yet throw fewer power shots, within the same percentage of your opponent and not get knocked out?

Jab stats are only relevant if the jab is controlling and dictating the tempo of the fight but his were not that night. Castillo controlled the fight. Definitely the most uncomfortable fight of Floyds career where he wasn't in control.
Again, if a person is landing that high a percentage of jabs a person can be said to control the fight. Was Floyd in control the entire fight? No, was Castillo? No.

I'd argue that his numbers are going up because he's aging, not using his feet like he used to and he's forced to fight more. Perfect example is the first Maidana fight; he had no business struggling with a guy of his caliber.
Again, his numbers are either averaging out or they are increasing because he's adjusting to what his opponent is doing. Floyd is using his feet, Floyd isn't moving his upper body and moving his head and neck like he used to.

I also agreed with you; I don't think simply throwing a 1000 punches is much of a plan, there must be more to it, like Castillo didn't simply plod forward and throw punches, no he had an excellent game plan by mixing up what he did to get inside sometimes he worked off the jab, he used A LOT of head movement, he got very low to get insid, he threw punches from all sorts of odd angles, etc. Basically the plan was to mix it up, be unpredictable while applying pressure (unlike guys like Guerrero who obviously had a very limited weapons and would try and fail at the same thing over and over again).
And how did that work out for Castillo in the end? He lost. How did it work out in the second fight?

There are multiple good plans that would be effective the problem again is the talent.

What are these good plans? Time and time again people say there is a plan but the guy is still undefeated.

For example,, I always thought a stylistic nightmare for Floyd would be a tall fighter with a long jab who boxes from the outside which would force Floyd to be the aggressor. But there are no Tommy Hearns type fighters around. Floyd's great pull counter would be ineffective against a guy like that and by forcing Floyd to be the aggressor you're putting him outside of his comfort zone, making him play a game that isn't his best.
How is that a plan when the success would depend on a fighter being tall with a longer jab/reach? All of what you said requires a fighter that is physically different from the avg fighter in that weight class, which Hearns was. And Floyd isn't outside of his zone being the aggressor. Again, look at the stats for Cotto, Canelo and Ghost. What do you see there?

On the flip-side, an intelligent and highly skilled offensive fighter with great stamina would also give him problems (think a prime Roberto Duran). These types of guys don't exist right now between 140-154. There are plenty of aggressive fighters but none that are as highly skilled or as intelligent.
This I agree with and said in the past that I would have Duran edge him out. But it would also depend on what Duran showed up.

Right now there is no plan to beat the guy.
 
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But at least he was getting paid! Now what will happen next? He will co-main event with Floyd on Cinco de Mayo vs Carl Froch? He looses money there cuz HBO was planning on giving him the full on main event ppv money. Even then, HBO is on a mission to hurt Showtime's money at any cost meaning less money for Floyd, less money for JCC. I hope Devon Alexander KO's Khan and destroys Haymon's plans.
Chavez is still under contract with Top Rank for one more fight. I doubt Bob Arum would let that happen, not until he fights again first and his contract expires.
 
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Here are stats http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Jose_Luis_Castillo_vs._Floyd_Mayweather_Jr._(1st_meeting)



I'd say that is what contributed to the scores being the way they were. To throw that many jabs and have that high a percentage, yet throw fewer power shots, within the same percentage of your opponent and not get knocked out?
If you watch the fight and not just look at jab stats, his jab was not effective, it was not keeping Castillo off him a nor was it controlling the tempo of the fight.



Again, if a person is landing that high a percentage of jabs a person can be said to control the fight. Was Floyd in control the entire fight? No, was Castillo? No.
Castillo most certainly had control the majority of the fight. He was in charge (ring generalship), he was landing the harder more effective punches and controlled effective aggression.



Again, his numbers are either averaging out or they are increasing because he's adjusting to what his opponent is doing. Floyd is using his feet, Floyd isn't moving his upper body and moving his head and neck like he used to.



And how did that work out for Castillo in the end? He lost. How did it work out in the second fight?
It worked out perfectly for Castillo, unfortunately for him the wrong decision was made by the judges. Can't fault him for poor scoring.




What are these good plans? Time and time again people say there is a plan but the guy is still undefeated.
I've already mentioned a couple, the problem as I also mentioned is the quality/skills of the opponent. They might have the right plan but they lack the skills or talent. v



How is that a plan when the success would depend on a fighter being tall with a longer jab/reach? All of what you said requires a fighter that is physically different from the avg fighter in that weight class, which Hearns was. And Floyd isn't outside of his zone being the aggressor. Again, look at the stats for Cotto, Canelo and Ghost. What do you see there?
I was talking about a combination of attributes along with a plan. Guerrero could have the greatest mastermind trainer in the world and it wouldn't matter because he lacks the physical skills and attributes.



This I agree with and said in the past that I would have Duran edge him out. But it would also depend on what Duran showed up.

Right now there is no plan to beat the guy.
Just like there is no plan to beat Joe Calzaghe, Sven Ottke, Deontay Wilder, etc.

Of course there are good plans, but you need the TALENT to be successful enough to win. B level fighters aren't good enough.
 
May 13, 2002
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Who has been worse for boxing Arum or Haymon?

Think we need a poll?
lately Haymon, without question. Biggest cock blocker in the sport. Arum still gives us good fights at least, no Garcia vs Salka's.

I do look forward to whenever Arum steps down though and DeBouff takes over Top Rank. I think he's a more progressive thinker, Arum is still acting like it's 1945.
 

HERESY

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If you watch the fight and not just look at jab stats, his jab was not effective, it was not keeping Castillo off him a nor was it controlling the tempo of the fight.
Bro, I've watched that fight at least five times now. Why do you think the judges scored it the way they did? You have two 115-111 and a 116 and 111. And lets not forget that Floyd had issues with the shoulder and was also butted. And back to the jab, he jabbed to the body for the most of the night, hell yes it was effective.

Castillo most certainly had control the majority of the fight. He was in charge (ring generalship), he was landing the harder more effective punches and controlled effective aggression.
Nope. I used to agree that he won the fight. Now I see it as a draw at best. And lets not forget there was a knockdown in rd 2 that should have been called. And we won't even go into the size advantage he had over Floyd (two weight classes if my memory is right) and the holding and hitting he was doing. Now watch the fight again and see what happens when the fight is in the middle of the ring. And then go to what happened later in the fight, 10th round I believe, the ref lets Castillo throw 10 shots to the back without stepping in.

It worked out perfectly for Castillo, unfortunately for him the wrong decision was made by the judges. Can't fault him for poor scoring.
It didn't work out perfectly. He lost.

I've already mentioned a couple, the problem as I also mentioned is the quality/skills of the opponent. They might have the right plan but they lack the skills or talent. v
Everything you've mentioned requires someone/something that is physical. Younger, stronger, faster, longer reach, taller, etc. None of that is a plan.

I was talking about a combination of attributes along with a plan. Guerrero could have the greatest mastermind trainer in the world and it wouldn't matter because he lacks the physical skills and attributes.
But I am talking about the plan. What is the plan?

Just like there is no plan to beat Joe Calzaghe, Sven Ottke, Deontay Wilder, etc.
I didn't say there was, but do you see people rambling on every thirty seconds about how those guys? Nope. You see all these boxing guys talking about they have the plan to beat Floyd, shit even Oscar said it before and after the fight. Where is this fuckin plan? Retarded ass Bradley says it, Roach says it, this guy says it, that guy says it yet all the things they are saying people should do, they do it and it ends up MEANINGLESS.

Of course there are good plans, but you need the TALENT to be successful enough to win. B level fighters aren't good enough.
So in other words there is no plan.
 
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HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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Golovkin/Ward Forget It

I agree witht he guy. He doesn't need Ward and he has echoed what I've said for some time now. Ward has been called out by the top light heavyweights, multiple times now, so many times it's in the hundreds, yet he hasn't moved up.

Get in the ring Andre and take a fight, any fight, but stop begging for guys that are smaller than you to move up.
 
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Bro, I've watched that fight at least five times now. Why do you think the judges scored it the way they did? You have two 115-111 and a 116 and 111. And lets not forget that Floyd had issues with the shoulder and was also butted. And back to the jab, he jabbed to the body for the most of the night, hell yes it was effective.



Nope. I used to agree that he won the fight. Now I see it as a draw at best. And lets not forget there was a knockdown in rd 2 that should have been called. And we won't even go into the size advantage he had over Floyd (two weight classes if my memory is right) and the holding and hitting he was doing. Now watch the fight again and see what happens when the fight is in the middle of the ring. And then go to what happened later in the fight, 10th round I believe, the ref lets Castillo throw 10 shots to the back without stepping in.



It didn't work out perfectly. He lost.
If you believe Floyd won the fight then it's not worth going down that road of debating the fight, since we hold different opinions on who was victorious and going back and forth doesn't really have to do with the topic at hand (what is the plan?).

As for the excuse about Floyds shoulder or hand, like my man naner says all we can do is judge what we saw in the ring. everything else are simply excuses. we never seen any x-rays, medical reports, etc, so excuses are excuses and can't be debated.





Everything you've mentioned requires someone/something that is physical. Younger, stronger, faster, longer reach, taller, etc. None of that is a plan.
But I am talking about the plan. What is the plan?
Well that's partially my point man, there aren't any skilled fighters atm who are capable of beating him. all I see are b level fighters.

But yes I also talked about a plan. if you had a guy who was tall or average height for the division who had a srong jab, speed and boxed from the outside that would force Floyd to be the aggressor and put him in an uncomfortable position, that is the game plan. but size alone isn't going to do it which is why I don't bring up Paul Williams since he was a come forward fighter. see what I'm saying? You need the right attributes, skills and game plan against floyd, that's why I bring up attributes. like I said it didn't matter what a guy like Guerreros plan was, if he doesn't have the skills nothing will work.







I didn't say there was, but do you see people rambling on every thirty seconds about how those guys? Nope. You see all these boxing guys talking about they have the plan to beat Floyd, shit even Oscar said it before and after the fight. Where is this fuckin plan? Retarded ass Bradley says it, Roach says it, this guy says it, that guy says it yet all the things they are saying people should do, they do it and it ends up MEANINGLESS.
Well right, their plans are worthless if the fighter isn't skilled enough to implement the plan. I mean we go back to Maidana He had the right idea, the right plan, but he wwasn't good enough to do it for 12 rounds.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here, I'm just saying it's a combination of skills and strategy. You need to have both. Maidana = good plan, lack of skills. Zab Judah = good skills, lack of strategy (mental midget).



]
 
May 13, 2002
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To me it depends on what Khan shows up. Also, if he can dominate Alexander I can see him getting the Floyd fight.
Khan is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. Fairly tall, long jab, good boxer and has speed. But he can get hurt from a strong gust of wind lol so idk . Stylistically he has what it takes to give Floyd problems. But his leaky defense and china chin are big time liabilities. I'd like to see this fight next, it's an interesting match up. If not Khan vs Pacquiao would be cool too.