Perfection

[2-0-NINE]

When have I said that God is unable to make something that may look like Him?

Right here

How can a non-created God intend to create something like Him?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

wait ...were we not perfect untill eve ate the apple and then gave it to adam and introduced good and evil to us

How would this affect a perfect God's perfect creation, especially given that this perfect God knew that this forbidden fruit would be eaten?

 

[ilikeballs]

he didnt know...the devil tempted eve and she ate the fruit that caused them to know good and evil...when he realized what they had done he told the the devil he would be cast from heaven for commiting such an act that led to what we are today

 

[ilikeballs]

it even saids that lucifer was too bright for his own good and that is what caused him to belive that he could overthrough god

 

[Hutch]

Assuming that pain is created, yes. God is ultimately responsible for all creation.

If pain is not created, but is eternal, then the issue becomes that of pain being perfect due to it's being eternally sanctioned by a perfect God.

So either way, pain is perfect.

If God is such an omnipotent being and he was either the cause or everything or perpetuated/sanctioned the eternal, then everything would have to be considered perfect. By that definition, child molesterers, rapists and even satan himself are perfect because they were born from the mind of God.

 

[ilikeballs]

If God is such an omnipotent being and he was either the cause or everything or perpetuated/sanctioned the eternal, then everything would have to be considered perfect. By that definition, child molesterers, rapists and even satan himself are perfect because they were born from the mind of God.

wasnt satan perfect...untill his fall from grace

 

[Hutch]

I know its not directed at me, but your question goes back to the definition of perfection.

Exactly. I think it is impossible to define true perfection.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Right here

"How can a non-created God intend to create something like Him?"

So now we are talking about two different things. When I made that statement I was referring to the fact that creation is created and God is not. Now, this aside, you are asking if a perfect God can create something that "may look like Him". Sure. Why not? But what does this have to do with the fact that creation is automatically lower than God by the mere fact that it is created? And furthermore, how does this prove that creation being lower than God constitutes it as imperfect? Since we know that God could have only intended to create something that was lower than Him, and given that a perfect God only create perfect things, it follows that creation, although lower than God, must be perfect. It is perfect at conception, it is perfect in it's duration, and it is perfect at destruction.

 

[Hutch]

wasnt satan perfect...untill his fall from grace

again though, if he had the capacity to do evil such that it would result in his fall from grace, then was he perfect in the first place? Wouldn't having the inherent capacity to perform evil acts be an imperfection, meaning that he was never perfect in the first place?

 

[2-0-NINE]

wasnt satan perfect...untill his fall from grace

Sinless, but not perfect, perfect meaning he would be able to overthrow God.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

he didnt know...the devil tempted eve and she ate the fruit that caused them to know good and evil...when he realized what they had done he told the the devil he would be cast from heaven for commiting such an act that led to what we are today

Now you are just contradicting a perfect and omniscient (all-knowing) God. Relatively speaking, our actions are imperfect (i.e. the result doesn't always match our intent) because we can only speculate on the future. A perfect God's intent always follows to it's result. God never becomes frustrated unless He wills Himself to be. And in that case, such so-called "frustration" is simply His transcendental pastime.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

If God is such an omnipotent being and he was either the cause or everything or perpetuated/sanctioned the eternal, then everything would have to be considered perfect. By that definition, child molesterers, rapists and even satan himself are perfect because they were born from the mind of God.

You are correct. Now the next question concerns the intent upon which there became creation.

 

[Ethereal]

again though, if he had the capacity to do evil such that it would result in his fall from grace, then was he perfect in the first place? Wouldn't having the inherent capacity to perform evil acts be an imperfection, meaning that he was never perfect in the first place?

But if the perfect design that is Satan had the ability to do evil (as that is how he was designed) and he acted upon that capability, how does that constitue imperfection?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

wasnt satan perfect...untill his fall from grace

If the Bible states that Satan was previously perfect, then that would be a great example to show Stockton how being lower than God does not constitute imperfection.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

again though, if he had the capacity to do evil such that it would result in his fall from grace, then was he perfect in the first place? Wouldn't having the inherent capacity to perform evil acts be an imperfection, meaning that he was never perfect in the first place?

That is, if we assume that the inherent capacity to perform evil is itself imperfect. But how exactly does that follow? The fact that we can poorly use our free will exemplifies the fact that it is free. How is this an imperfection? Some may say that it is imperfect because the result is suffering, but then why is suffering imperfect? If you keep thinking in this line of reasoning, you will come to realize that a perfect God's creation, including His system of reward and punishment, must be perfect.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

if god is perfect...and his creations are perfect...if he created us to love him...then didnt he contistute a perfect plan to see who truly loves him and who doestn love him...because he wanted us to have a choice...if you think of it like that then good knew that satan would fall from grace and thus be the catalist for his perfect plan.

You're getting the idea. My only disagreement is that I would say this is God's perfect plan to bring all souls back to Him but on their own accord, not that God is judging to see who loves Him. Since we know that God is knowledgable even of the future, there is no question of God experimenting to find out who loves Him. We all love God. This mode of love for God is simply covered at the moment; it is dormant. Religion/spirituality is aimed at awakening it. This is what I believe, anyway.

 

[ilikeballs]

You're getting the idea. My only disagreement is that I would say this is God's perfect plan to bring all souls back to Him but on their own accord, not that God is judging to see who loves Him. Since we know that God is knowledgable even of the future, there is no question of God experimenting to find out who loves Him. We all love God. This mode of love for God is simply covered at the moment; it is dormant. Religion/spirituality is aimed at awakening it. This is what I believe, anyway.

ok ...but what about those that awaken to the knowledge but refuse god

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

ok ...but what about those that awaken to the knowledge but refuse god

By "awaken" I am referring to the awakening of the dormant love for God. Therefore those who awaken do not refuse God, by definition.

Though, perhaps you meant something else...

 

[ilikeballs]

ok .... but arent those who dont seek this knowledge punished...the ones that are, shall i say "brainwashed" by society

 

[ilikeballs]

ill ask that question a different way...if you die without this knowledge will you be punished??