Heresy, Sorry for taking so long, finally had some free time.
N.P.
The fact that the real history isn't taught only adds to the fact that what these people are reacting to is the oppression they have been facing for generations and continue to do so.
Teaching starts at
home, and it is on the person to
CHOOSE if they will continue in ignorance or seek intelligence. A lot of black history was NOT taught in school, and it continues to not be taught in school, but that does not give anyone (including myself) the right to break the law. If they are not teaching certain facts or certain histories in school it is then on the people (the race/group) or the parents to instill these truths.
The reason why it should not be used for justification is because they are not attacking the real problem. The real problem is the mexican government, and no matter how many times a person tries to spin it blame needs to fall back on the mexican government. Does it fall on them solely? No, america shares some blame (due to capitalism), but to keep implying the land was "stolen" and using that as justification for taking over an economic/political infrastructure is lunacy.
If the system needs change, then the people should do what needs to be done in order to make that change. Whether it is protesting, marching, etc.
Protest in mexico.
You seem to be really impressed with the civil rights movement, your same argument could be said (and was) about that movement. If the system is failing people, it requires change.
Fact: The majority of civil rights activist in america were
legal citizens.
Fact: The civil rights activist were protesting in the country they were BORN in and not countries their ancestors stem from.
Fact: The mexican people are doing more prostests in america than in mexico.
Fact: The mexican government is a major contributor to the economic plight of mexican people.
FACT:
MEXICAN CITIZENS HAVE AN INFRATSRUCTURE TO FALL BACK ON. AFRICAN AMERICANS DID NOT (AND PRESENTLY DO NOT) HAVE AN INFRASTRUCTURE BESIDES THE AMERICAN ONE. :dead:
Your comparison of the civil rights movement to the current movement of america is shabby. Why? You didn't see african americans saying "this land is our land and we need rights because our ancestors were slaves." When they protested and fought for civil rights they did so because their views were "WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND WE ARE EQUAL". The messages are COMPLETELY different, and while you may have had some radical movements (and no I'm not talking about the panthers), you still have movements and messengers of peace that fought in a different way.
Yes, under the current law they are criminals. But, from my perspective as well as many others, the law is a bunch of bull shit.
The perspectives of others and yourself may be food for thought here, and it may even be food for thought to someone offline, but the bottom line is it holds no weight over the laws of this land and the u.s. constitution. Just because you
believe something is B.S. doesn't actually make it B.S.
And since I believe this, the fact that I'm breaking the law by aiding an illegal immigrant means absolutely nothing to me because I know that what I am doing is the correct thing to do. Fuck the Law.
Thats on you, and if you want to be considered a felon and have to experience all the hardships that come with being one go ahead and be my guest. Now, also remember, when you say "fuck the law" I can
GUARANTEE you that if something happens to one of your loved ones, and you don't have the ability to handle the matter yourself, you'll PRAY for "the law" to help you out.
WE WERE HERE FIRST! That cannot be disputed.
No, it
can be disputed, and if you read my posts regarding this matter (in two other threads) you'll see the evidence/links I presented. Because I posted the evidence does that mean I agree with it? No, it simply means another view worthy of consideration has been presented.
The land wasn't technically "stolen", but please read about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the circumstances surrounding it and you'll understand why.
I already discussed it in another thread. While I did not specifically mention the name of the treaty, I did mention the land that was not stolen and the monetary compensation that was rewarded and the mexican governments choice to do all of this. So, with that being said, why do we have all the "this land was stolen" rhetoric coming from the illegal immigration side, but even more importantly WHAT VIOLATION OF THE TREATY HAS OCCURED? If violations of the treaty have occured (there are arguments for this), more emphasis should be placed on this instead of "we were here first".
The thing that you are missing is that Mexicans are a mixture of both European and Indian blood.
The thing you are missing is that I've already stated this
MANY times in the past immigration threads, and the other thing you're missing is the fact that a lot of mexicans have AFRIKAN blood in them, but considering the FACT that the majority of mexicans in america identify as WHITE, I can see the reason why you would possibly leave this out and place a partial emphasis on europeans.
Native Americans have their own land here in the United States, they recieve aide from the government because of what happened in the past. The Natives of the Americas have many things in common and are very similar in culture, yet because we have Spanish in us as well, we don't get our indigenous past recognized. In fact, too many Mexicans disregard their true indigenous past which adds more to the ignorance involved while making these border laws.
What you fail to realize is that the united states government often VIOLATED its deals with native americans, so it is ok to break them off a piece, and in my opinion they should probably be given more, but unfortunately that will never happen. The thing is people are using the "we are related to natives" rhetoric simply for economic and political gain. Tell me about the treatment of natives in mexico.
Here is a question that was asked by MR. NICE GUY, and to this day no logical answer has been provided:
IF you or anyone else arguing that all Natives from the Americas are related actually believed in the principles you are so adamantly arguing for, than you would be compelled to make the SAME argument for Northern Native Americans right to enter into Mexican territory, as you believe all of this land (the America’s) is rightfully Native American territory. Why then are you only arguing for Mexican’s ability to enter into the US as it is “their land” and not for Northern Native Americans right to reside in Mexico or become citizens, as by your argument that is their land as well?
Please answer this question.
Mexicans should be treated in a similar fashion to Native Americans because we are partly the same. Now, I am not talking about reperations or anything like that, but I would like to see more schools dedicated to teaching our indigenous past and I also would like for these people trying to pass these border laws to understand that we were here first
Understanding if you were here first, second, third, fourth or LAST is NOT important in the grand scheme of things. What IS important is the FACT that this land is now controlled by a certain group of people, and these people control the laws. Ok, so you were here first, and?????? What does that mean? How does that entitle you to anything?
half of us has been here thousands of years.
Where is the proof of this?
What is the difference between these people being easily influenced this way, and others being easily influenced to be against immigration.
No difference exists, but in MY case the difference is the METHOD of persuasion and the results of it. One who is easily influenced to be against illegal immigration will not take the time to look at both sides objectively, do the research and formulate an opinion based on the findings.
Fact: The majority of people these days, especially in this country, are morons and are very easily influenced.
Don't act like the people in these marches are the only ones.
No one is acting as if the people in the marches are the only ones who are morons and easily influenced. If that is what you get from my posts I feel sorry for you. Now, can you show me an instance of were I have done this? If no instance exists why would you tell me to not act like it?
There is no other motive because like I have said many times, the main purpose of these marches was to show people the numbers of people who are here working and trying to make a living.
No, the motive was very simple and it goes back to the core message of nationalists. Watch the links I posted.
These marches were made to show people that they are NOT criminals, but everyday working people like everyone else here.
No, the majority of the marches I have watched or read about have a lot to do with the nationalist agenda and message. Watch the links I posted.
The difference is that they are considered illegal. But in no way shape or form are they like other criminals, they may be considered it because of the law, but that is it.
They ARE like other criminals because they are
BREAKING the current laws of this country. Are they commiting Type 1 crimes or Mala In Se?
NO! Is illegal immigration Mala Prohibita?
YES! So, you are incorrect in stating "in no way shape or form are they like other criminals.", and I suggest you learn the DIFFERENCES in crime (types) and study penal code before you respond to this one.
The legal process of becoming citizens is so backtracked that it takes years upon years upon years to become a citizen here or to get here legally. Also, when the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed, it stated that Mexicans were to be treated differently than immigrants from other countries because of the Mexican/US relationship. Mexicans were supposed to have a special privilage when it came to the border and immigration.
So, because it is backtracked one should break the law? Also, I see more provisions for mexicans
who were already in america as opposed to those who were not. Do provisions exist for those who were not here? Possibly, and thats on YOU to bring it to the light, and if you do THIS is what emphasis should be placed on; THE VIOLATION OF A WRITTEN AGREEMENT.
I can see that you are obviously very impressed with what blacks did in this country, and it is easly understandable. The civil rights movement did very many good things. They had to sacrifice a lot and many people died fighting. The Chicano movement can be tied in with the civil rights movement as well, so it wasn't only blacks.
No one has implied that the PAST chicano movement can not be tied in to civil rights, nor has anyone implied that the civil righst were only blacks. However, the FACTS show the MAJORITY of people who fought and DIED for civil rights in america WERE black, and these people had
NO INFRASTRUCTURE to rely on outside of the american one. The same
cannot be said for Mexicans, Jews, Asians, Arabs etc.
But, what exactly did they gain? Black people are still the poorest, black people still get harrassed by police, black people still don't have that much representation in the government. What exactly is so great about today?
First of all, part of the reason these things occur is because blacks in america have
NEVER had a TRUE infrastructure to rely on, nor do the majority of blacks have a HISTORY or CULTURE they can truly identify with. Mexicans in america can trace their lineage to mexico and have a strong sense of culture. A lot of the beliefs were handed down from generation to generation and are still carried on to this day. The same cannot be said about blacks in america because most do not know what parts of afrika they come from, and afrikan culture was stripped from blacks on purpose. Mexicans from mexico have the ability to come to america and "make it" because they have TWO systems they can utilize. Can you say the same for blacks?
What exactly is so great about today? Well for starters I have the right to attend college, run my business, purchase property, vote and do things that only white males were allowed to do. I have the ability to live my life as a HUMAN BEING and not as 3/5 of a human or an animal. I have the ability to do things that ALL MEN should be afforded. YOU probably will NEVER understand this because you do NOT understand the struggles of afrikan people in america and you don't know their history. Do blacks in america have problems? Yes, and anyone who knows me will tell you I'm VERY vocal about these problems, however change does not come overnight. You had Jim Crow laws all the way up till the 1960's, so technically blacks have only been "
equal" for around 40-50 years. Also, with the assasination of black leaders, the systematic destruction of black families (single parent homes, freeway rick/crack epidemic) what do you expect? You expect blacks to be on top like whites who have been on top for 400 years, or like the so-called jews who have benefitted from slavery? Better yet, how about mexican immigrants who have two infrastructures?
I am not taking anything away from the great things that came from the movements in the 60's, but you are acting like black people MADE it.
No I'm not and the next time you accuse me of doing something I am not doing my gloves will come off. I have been respectful up til this point, but if you don't want me to spin this thread in another direction I suggest you keep it cool and refrain from accusations. If I
appear to be doing something or you don't understand what I am trying to convey, it is better to ask for clarification or pose a question.
As far as acting as if black people have made it this is not the case. However, black people have the CHANCE to make it IF black people practice the same techniques the so-called Jews and Asians practice. Black people will have the chance to make it IF black people place less emphasis on materialism and adopt forms of social conservatism. What you are missing is the FACT that I am saying blacks died for what they believed in and didn't use the "easier said than done" cop out that pro immigration people use when they are told mexicans need to protest and change the mexican government. Regardless of what results you are not aware of results HAVE come from the civil rights movement, and blacks do have a long way to go, so stick to what has been said instead of relying on fallicies to further your argument.
If Congalangus Rice and Colon Powell equal black people making it to you, than I honestly don't know what to say to you.
No one mentioned them, and they are globalists. Here is a black guy that is making it:
http://www.afromexico.com/persnal.htm
Blacks and other minorities are FAR from being equal. Let's just say that everyone in this country now has equal civil rights regardless of race, gender, etc, which is not true by the way. But, what good is having equal rights when economically there is no way in hell that there will ever be an equality. Whites have so much money and power in this country that equal civil rights don't mean shit when it comes to economics.
The majority of whites in america don't have much power. Yes, some of them may be allowed more rights or privelages than others, but a poor white male is in the same boat as a poor black male when you really look at it.
The good part about having civil rights is you now have the ability to at least ATTEMPT to carve your own path. Whites have money and power in america, but that money and power is reserved for the "haves and have mores".
Equal civil rights DO mean shit if you have the ability to make money, save, build an infrastructure, open your own banks, and keep the dollar amongst your people and in your community. BLACK WALL STREET is a PRIME EXAMPLE of this, but look what happened? They were not treated equal and the place was DESTROYED. So, you are
INCORRECT when saying civil rights don't mean shit when it comes to economics, because one CAN'T make a dollar and utilize it if one has limited rights.
I will address the rest of your post tommorow afternoon.
