Heresy, Sorry for taking so long, finally had some free time.
"I disagree with this 100%. You can teach the real history in school all you want, but what will that actually accomplish? What will prevent the students from learning the history and forming a counter culture or learning the history and later starting a rebellion?"
The fact that the real history isn't taught only adds to the fact that what these people are reacting to is the oppression they have been facing for generations and continue to do so.
"In some cases yes, in some cases no. However, reacting to the current system should not be used to justify what people are doing."
Why not? If the system needs change, then the people should do what needs to be done in order to make that change. Whether it is protesting, marching, etc. You seem to be really impressed with the civil rights movement, your same argument could be said (and was) about that movement. If the system is failing people, it requires change.
"Well, technically they ARE criminals because they are aiding someone who is breaking the law. If your buddy robs a bank and you drive him away guess what? If you're in a car and you drive someoen to the other side of town so they can smother someone guess what? If you aid a fugitive of the law guess what? Again, what do you expect people to do when one side has made it VERY clear about what they intend to do."
Yes, under the current law they are criminals. But, from my perspective as well as many others, the law is a bunch of bull shit. And since I believe this, the fact that I'm breaking the law by aiding an illegal immigrant means absolutely nothing to me because I know that what I am doing is the correct thing to do. Fuck the Law.
"In each and everyone of those vids you'll find MANY signs OR people stating the "this is our homeland", "we were here first", " Aztlan is ours", "We are not illegal we are indiginous" rhetoric. You'll see many people talking about freedom and equality, and all of this goes back to the core message; we were here first, this land was stolen, and now we want it back. So yes, the majority DO hold the nationalist mentality I have spoken about."
WE WERE HERE FIRST! That cannot be disputed. The land wasn't technically "stolen", but please read about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the circumstances surrounding it and you'll understand why. The thing that you are missing is that Mexicans are a mixture of both European and Indian blood. Native Americans have their own land here in the United States, they recieve aide from the government because of what happened in the past. The Natives of the Americas have many things in common and are very similar in culture, yet because we have Spanish in us as well, we don't get our indigenous past recognized. In fact, too many Mexicans disregard their true indigenous past which adds more to the ignorance involved while making these border laws. Mexicans should be treated in a similar fashion to Native Americans because we are partly the same. Now, I am not talking about reperations or anything like that, but I would like to see more schools dedicated to teaching our indigenous past and I also would like for these people trying to pass these border laws to understand that we were here first, half of us has been here thousands of years.
"Fact: You were not at every march.
Fact: I have constantly stated that the many of the people DON'T know why they are really protesting, and you stating that they don't know is PROVING my point. That point is THEY ARE EASILY INFLUENCED BY THOSE WHO ARE PROMOTING THE "THIS LAND IS OUR LAND" AGENDA."
What is the difference between these people being easily influenced this way, and others being easily influenced to be against immigration.
Fact: The majority of people these days, especially in this country, are morons and are very easily influenced.
Don't act like the people in these marches are the only ones.
"No motive? How can you say there was no other motive?"
There is no other motive because like I have said many times, the main purpose of these marches was to show people the numbers of people who are here working and trying to make a living. These marches were made to show people that they are NOT criminals, but everyday working people like everyone else here. The difference is that they are considered illegal. But in no way shape or form are they like other criminals, they may be considered it because of the law, but that is it.
"Why can't they go through the legal process of becoming citizens? If they did so would they face seperation?"
The legal process of becoming citizens is so backtracked that it takes years upon years upon years to become a citizen here or to get here legally. Also, when the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed, it stated that Mexicans were to be treated differently than immigrants from other countries because of the Mexican/US relationship. Mexicans were supposed to have a special privilage when it came to the border and immigration.
http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/ghtreaty/
"So how come millions of people are not protesting in mexico? I don't want to read or hear the "easier said than done" excuse, because thats all it is. Again, black people were slaves for CENTURIES, and the civil rights movement isn't something that started or ended in the 60's. Black people had to DIE so people could enjoy freedom. Black people had to stand up in the country they lived in order to make a statement and change. So, I will ask you again, and hopefully you won't continue to dance around the questions (like you previously have.) How come millions of people are not protesting in mexico?"
I can see that you are obviously very impressed with what blacks did in this country, and it is easly understandable. The civil rights movement did very many good things. They had to sacrifice a lot and many people died fighting. The Chicano movement can be tied in with the civil rights movement as well, so it wasn't only blacks. But, what exactly did they gain? Black people are still the poorest, black people still get harrassed by police, black people still don't have that much representation in the government. What exactly is so great about today? I am not taking anything away from the great things that came from the movements in the 60's, but you are acting like black people MADE it. If Congalangus Rice and Colon Powell equal black people making it to you, than I honestly don't know what to say to you. Blacks and other minorities are FAR from being equal. Let's just say that everyone in this country now has equal civil rights regardless of race, gender, etc, which is not true by the way. But, what good is having equal rights when economically there is no way in hell that there will ever be an equality. Whites have so much money and power in this country that equal civil rights don't mean shit when it comes to economics. If you have the time, please read this very good essay by Karl Marx explaining what I am talking about here.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm
The point of all this is that blacks and all other minorities are part of a bigger picture in this country, they are just part of the poor and exploited lower class. They have a lot to go in order to be equal. Now, I'm sure you'll say that what do illegal Mexicans have to do with this movement, but like Mr. Trotsky, I believe that the movement has to be worldwide and not just in one country. There is a minority of people which have too much power, the NWO or whatever. It doesn't matter to me, the fact is that people are running this show with the masses not aware of it and more importantly not doing anything about it. A movement in just one country is easily stopped or controlled (Cuba, Venezuela). But, a worldwide movement is a completely different story. And I believe that the fight these illegals are fighting is a fight not only against the racist lawmakers of this country, but more importantly the fight between us (the masses) and them (those in power).
And I won't dance around your question, look at what is going on in Mexico right now. THERE ARE protests happening there and things are starting to unfold. More people are becoming radicalized and it's only a matter of time before something major goes down.
"No, YOU mentioned the wall and you were implying that its purpose was to keep people out. I am telling you that the wall was built to keep people IN and that the two are DIFFERENT. Yes, the result is to contain or limit the movement of people, but you comparing the Berlin Wall to the wall being built at the borders is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, both are fruit, but they are different fruit."
What was so wrong about the Berlin wall? To me, it was the fact that it seperated families and a people as a whole. The same can be said for this wall, period. The purposes are different, but the results are the same and this is why I am against the wall at the border. IMO the negatives of the wall outweigh the positives by a lot.
"Yes, some illegal immigrants are already here, but the problem is an ON GOING PROBLEM. Are you trying to imply that the problem has been solved and no more illegal immigrants are coming to america? The problem is not only the illegals that are currently here. The problem is also the influx of illegal immigrants. A wall would limit or stop the current immigration problem to some extent. "
I am implying that a wall will not stop people from coming here. But, it will seperate families and make it a lot harder for people to go back and forth. A wall would make the numbers less, but it definetely will not stop the whole movement. So like I said above, negatives outweigh the positives.
"You are starting to use many fallicies to support your position. If 1 illegal immigrant or 10 million are deported that does not solve the problem. The MAJORITY of the problem comes from the CONSTANT illegal immigration that is happening this very minute. This country can sustain the 10 million that are already here, but this country CANNOT sustain 2 million entering each year AND the rise of birth that will result from it.
As far as deportation that is not the only option. Death and concentration camps would not be out of the norm if things get out of hand."
The problem of overpopulation is not just a US problem, but a worldwide problem. And the US should not ignore their responsibility as citizens of this earth by thinking that they are special and deserve more than others outside of the country. This is where the resources are, so this is where the people will come. What is this country doing to solve the problem of overpopulation and pollution and everything connected? I don't know the exact number, but this country uses a HUGE amount of the world's resources and I personally don't think people here are more special than people elsewhere. So the fact that people coming here illegaly have such a negative impact on the economy of this country and may result in it falling apart means nothing to me because I look at this problem as a worldwide issue, and not just from this countries perspective.
As for your comment on the bottom, you should be slapped across the face. If you are being sarcastic, I apoligize because it was not clear to me.
"I've lived in San Diego for some time and I've been to LA several times. I've never confused either with a city of mexico. In fact, I don't know of anyone who has confused it with a city of mexico. What cities in mexico are as diverse as la or san diego? Yes, these cities have large groups of hispanics, but they also have a lot of other racial groups (blacks, whites,asians,jews) that you won't see walking around in the average mexican city. Also, the cities you listed have more modernization/industrilization, so where would the confusion come in?"
Confused was the wrong word, I simply want to make fact that there are cities in the United States that have billboards in spanish, store signs in spanish, and look very similar to a city like Guadalajara or Mexico city.
"Which will have a more negative effect, a wall being made to curtail out of control immigration or the entrance of 2 million people (below the poverty level) for the next 20 years? Please, answer this question. Yes, the walls are going to piss people off, but what you fail to realize is people are going to be pissed off regardless."
The world is being overpopulated, therefore the resources are being consumed quicker and are more in demand now than ever. The United States is where a lot of resources are, so people will come here. If you are saying that the US should continue the way it is with consuming such a large amount of the world's resources while millions starve to death everyday, then this is something we disagree with.
"The video pro immigration people have yet to refute. I've posted it before and people failed to address it. If I were a betting man, I'd say the same thing is going to happen in this thread.
http://www.techniguy.com/Newsletters...entalIssue.htm"
The numbers and facts cannot be refuted, you are correct. But, like I said before, I don't give a shit about the economy here because the current situation is something that needs change IMO. Therefore, if the economy fails because of this immigration, it actually helps with what I believe should happen anyways. People need to step up and take control, and if this helps, then I am not going to stop it.
