Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito Nov 13th, Cowboys Stadium
- Thread starter 2-0-Sixx
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Stop it 2-0-Sixx you got proven wrong with facts. I'm not talking about 5 other fighters I'm talking about your statement that Cotto has as good of a resume as Mayweather. I broke down your weak ass Cotto list now deal with it. Do you really think that your name calling is helping your case. Not at all. It just proves my point. Why are you speaking on my non-prime list, but yet you can't say anything about Mayweather's prime list. You give Cotto credit for the Jab win but not Mayweather and he beat dude before Cotto. Not only did Mayweather beat Jose Castillo once, but he did it again to shut you hater up. If Mayweather lost to Castillo then Cotto lost to both Mosley and Cottley using your dumb ass logic. You know your boxing but you are a hater for real when it comes to Mayweather. Just because you like the way a guy fights, doesn't mean dude is a great fighter. Cotto has never beaten a elite or even good fighter. Every time dude steps up to fight a real good fighter he gets his ass beat. Now how in the world can his resume even be talked about in the same sentence as Pac-Man or Mayweather. Pac-Man and Mayweather win all their big fights clean cut, that's what makes them great and elite fighters. I know you hate Mayweather but the facts are their. How can you have a great resume when you get your ass beat in all your big fights? Please answer that question for me.
b-hop fought more champions than both of them though. This was confirmed in The Ring Magazine where they showed Hopkins fought more champs than anyone else (that's highly ranked) at 21 total, floyd & pacquiao were the closest to that at I believe 13-14 or right around there.
Roy Jones Jr x2 (multiple champ, hall of famer)
Kelly Pavlik (champion)
Joe Calzaghe (multiple champ, hall of famer)
Ronald Wright (multiple champ, possibly hall of fame)
Antonio Tarver (multiple champ, borderline hall of famer)
Jermain Taylor x2 (multiple champ)
Howard Eastman (champ)
Oscar De La Hoya (multiple champ, hall of famer)
Robert Allen (champ)
William Joppy (champ)
Felix Trinidad (multiple champ, hall of famer, hopkins ruined)
Keith Holmes (champ)
Antwun Echols (multiple champ, hopkins ruined him)
Syd Vanderpool (champ)
Simon Brown (multiple champ)
Glen Johnson (multiple champ, borderline hall of famer)
John David Jackson (multiple champ)
Joe Lipsey (25-0, ranked #1 hopkins ended his career)
Segundo Mercado (champ, hopkins ruined him)
Lupe Aquino (champ)
Roy Ritchie (14-0 hopkins ended his career)
On top of that hopkins had 21 MW title defenses which is obviously a record and didn't lose during that stretch of time for over 10 years, until he was 40 years old and that was against taylor, which is highly debated till this day.
Roy Jones Jr x2 (multiple champ, hall of famer)
Kelly Pavlik (champion)
Joe Calzaghe (multiple champ, hall of famer)
Ronald Wright (multiple champ, possibly hall of fame)
Antonio Tarver (multiple champ, borderline hall of famer)
Jermain Taylor x2 (multiple champ)
Howard Eastman (champ)
Oscar De La Hoya (multiple champ, hall of famer)
Robert Allen (champ)
William Joppy (champ)
Felix Trinidad (multiple champ, hall of famer, hopkins ruined)
Keith Holmes (champ)
Antwun Echols (multiple champ, hopkins ruined him)
Syd Vanderpool (champ)
Simon Brown (multiple champ)
Glen Johnson (multiple champ, borderline hall of famer)
John David Jackson (multiple champ)
Joe Lipsey (25-0, ranked #1 hopkins ended his career)
Segundo Mercado (champ, hopkins ruined him)
Lupe Aquino (champ)
Roy Ritchie (14-0 hopkins ended his career)
On top of that hopkins had 21 MW title defenses which is obviously a record and didn't lose during that stretch of time for over 10 years, until he was 40 years old and that was against taylor, which is highly debated till this day.
How many of those guys that hopkins beat were really all that good though? He was the best middleweight in a crappy time for Middleweights. Much like the Klitchko's are now.
Tarver and Glen Johnson have NO place in the hall of fame breh, come on now.
Hopkins didn't ruin Trinidad by any means. Trinidad RUINED Vargas, big difference.
You and I will never see eye to eye on this. Hopkins is a no doubt hall of famer and a great fighter in his own right but his resume isn't as good as De La Hoya's
Tarver and Glen Johnson have NO place in the hall of fame breh, come on now.
Hopkins didn't ruin Trinidad by any means. Trinidad RUINED Vargas, big difference.
You and I will never see eye to eye on this. Hopkins is a no doubt hall of famer and a great fighter in his own right but his resume isn't as good as De La Hoya's
This is exactly what I said:
Never once did I say I personally believe Cotto's resume is better than floyd. My entire argument was that Cotto's resume is better than MOST boxers today, with exception to a few elite guys. That's it.
No you didn't. All you did was discredit every single win/loss of Cotto's career and that's bullshit, as anyone's resume can be nitpicked apart (like I did with Floyd's just to show an example of how easy it is, even Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard can be nitpicked apart. Again, my arguement is that Cotto's resume is great, especially in the modern day of the "duck" and avoiding fighters. Cotto fights everybody and he deserves big time props for that.
It's in good humor you sensitive pansy
I'm not saying he has a better resume then floyd
Never once did I say I personally believe Cotto's resume is better than floyd. My entire argument was that Cotto's resume is better than MOST boxers today, with exception to a few elite guys. That's it.
No you didn't. All you did was discredit every single win/loss of Cotto's career and that's bullshit, as anyone's resume can be nitpicked apart (like I did with Floyd's just to show an example of how easy it is, even Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard can be nitpicked apart. Again, my arguement is that Cotto's resume is great, especially in the modern day of the "duck" and avoiding fighters. Cotto fights everybody and he deserves big time props for that.
It's in good humor you sensitive pansy
It wasn't the best MW era in history but it was no where near as bad as the heavyweight division is now. On top of that, if hopkins didn't rule the MW division for so long, it would have been a much more competitive era.
In addition, Hopkins MW era makes today's MW's look like a bunch of losers.
I said borderline, meaning they are close to it.
And I actually think Glen Johnson deserves to get in, he's fought EVERYONE has been robbed countless times. Plus his destruction of Roy Jones (which wasn't a one lucky punch like tarver) speaks volumes of how good he was at his peak. Calzaghe also ducking him FOUR TIMES tells you something as well.
There are A LOT of guys in the hall of fame that weren't as good as Glen Johnson was.
He ruined him mentally, without a doubt.
Trinidad was 44-0 at the time and was the biggest boxer at the time. After the loss he retired for two years, then came back and never looked as good as he did pre-hopkins. Hopkins took his soul.
haha, where the hell did that come from? Who said anything about oscar de la hoya? I'm talking about right now out of active fighters. Oscar is retired.
Oscar's resume is one of the best ever as far as who he fought. I never said otherwise. Oscar fought EVERYONE and their mama.
As far as ranking all time pound 4 pound though, Hopkins is higher than Oscar, as Hopkins was the superior fighter and his accomplishments outweight Oscar's. Oscar fought the better opposition but Hopkins never lost the way Oscar did nor did he get any gift decisions like oscar did (pernell whitaker & Strum).
In addition, Hopkins MW era makes today's MW's look like a bunch of losers.
I said borderline, meaning they are close to it.
And I actually think Glen Johnson deserves to get in, he's fought EVERYONE has been robbed countless times. Plus his destruction of Roy Jones (which wasn't a one lucky punch like tarver) speaks volumes of how good he was at his peak. Calzaghe also ducking him FOUR TIMES tells you something as well.
There are A LOT of guys in the hall of fame that weren't as good as Glen Johnson was.
He ruined him mentally, without a doubt.
Trinidad was 44-0 at the time and was the biggest boxer at the time. After the loss he retired for two years, then came back and never looked as good as he did pre-hopkins. Hopkins took his soul.
haha, where the hell did that come from? Who said anything about oscar de la hoya? I'm talking about right now out of active fighters. Oscar is retired.
Oscar's resume is one of the best ever as far as who he fought. I never said otherwise. Oscar fought EVERYONE and their mama.
As far as ranking all time pound 4 pound though, Hopkins is higher than Oscar, as Hopkins was the superior fighter and his accomplishments outweight Oscar's. Oscar fought the better opposition but Hopkins never lost the way Oscar did nor did he get any gift decisions like oscar did (pernell whitaker & Strum).
2-0-Sixx we had a good one going today. LOL, you made work fun today. You know we always clowning with each other it's all in good boxing fun. What up ChrisHoggalypse you know your shit. FYI, B-Hop ruined J. Taylor, Pavlik, and Tito. Tito ruined Vargas, David Reid, Joppy, and Oba Carr. Man I love boxing..
Straight up, the MW division sucks right now. There are maybe 5-6 people tops that I really even care to see including Williams who really isn't even a middleweight. The Middleweight div. definitely wasn't that good then either though. Just because one guy is at the head of the division doesn't make the division bad breh. Look at how the Welterweight division was since about 2006. You had a solid 10-11 guys fighting to try and get a shot a Mayweather even though he wouldn't fight any of them lol There were still plenty of good fights to be had and plenty of guys you would've liked to see at least challenge for the title, even if you thought Floyd would beat them or not. I can't say the same for BHOP's title run. Like I said, BHOP is great but I'm no more impressed by his resume than I am Roy Jones Jr.'s. They both fought everyone in their division's but the names on it aren't that great. They both have standout names on theirs but I don't think either of them are top 20 all time fighters. We can agree to disagree.
I don't think Tarver or Johnson could do enough to get themselves in the hall of fame at this point. If Tarver were to somehow beat both Klitschko brothers, maybe he gets in. He would only be a 2 division champion and he doesn't have a ton of defenses of those belts either. Same with Johnson. Johnson has been on the end of a lot of bad decisions but it is what it is. Should've knocked them out I guess?
Roy Jones was damaged goods by the time he fought Tarver. He never looked the same after coming down from HW. Just as you said that Tavoris Cloud shouldn't consider going to 168 because of the breaking down of muscle to make the weight, Jones dropped about 30lbs of tight muscle to get back down to LHW. It's not healthy and his reflexes, power and speed showed that.
Trinidad tried numerous times to get a rematch with BHOP but hopkins wanted a majority stake in the fight. Just like BHOP refused to fight Jones Jr. unless it was 50-50 even though Trinidad and Jones brought way more to the table financially. Plus, Hopkins doesn't want to deal with Don King, so that didn't help. Trinidad retired because he couldn't get that fight and there wasn't much else to do at Middleweight. The division sucked at that point.
Trinidad came back after 2 years and looked rusty but then as good as ever against Mayorga. Say what you want about Mayorga but he's not the best guy to look good against. He was also the first guy to knock Mayorga out in his return after 2+ years. He lost to Winky Wright afterwards which anyone who knew anything about boxing could've guessed. I never bet on sports and I won some good bets on that fight. He would never do well against a style like DLH out boxing him, Bhop out boxing him, or Winky's high guard and controlling him with foot movement.
I brought up DLh as a comparison point. Not sure how you can say that Hopkins is more accomplished than DLH. That's honestly kinda silly to me. Oscar got a couple gift decisions and also lost some bad decisions too. That's boxing. A lot of people thought that Winky did enough to win against BHOP but also thought he beat Calzaghe? He was in a lot of close fights, it's boxing. Judges make bad decisions. You also have to take into account that Oscar's fanbase was way bigger, so the crowd cheers more even if he hits a guy on the gloves as opposed to clean landing shots. That sways judges all the time. Not saying it's okay, but it happens. That's not DLH's fault
I don't think Tarver or Johnson could do enough to get themselves in the hall of fame at this point. If Tarver were to somehow beat both Klitschko brothers, maybe he gets in. He would only be a 2 division champion and he doesn't have a ton of defenses of those belts either. Same with Johnson. Johnson has been on the end of a lot of bad decisions but it is what it is. Should've knocked them out I guess?
Roy Jones was damaged goods by the time he fought Tarver. He never looked the same after coming down from HW. Just as you said that Tavoris Cloud shouldn't consider going to 168 because of the breaking down of muscle to make the weight, Jones dropped about 30lbs of tight muscle to get back down to LHW. It's not healthy and his reflexes, power and speed showed that.
Trinidad tried numerous times to get a rematch with BHOP but hopkins wanted a majority stake in the fight. Just like BHOP refused to fight Jones Jr. unless it was 50-50 even though Trinidad and Jones brought way more to the table financially. Plus, Hopkins doesn't want to deal with Don King, so that didn't help. Trinidad retired because he couldn't get that fight and there wasn't much else to do at Middleweight. The division sucked at that point.
Trinidad came back after 2 years and looked rusty but then as good as ever against Mayorga. Say what you want about Mayorga but he's not the best guy to look good against. He was also the first guy to knock Mayorga out in his return after 2+ years. He lost to Winky Wright afterwards which anyone who knew anything about boxing could've guessed. I never bet on sports and I won some good bets on that fight. He would never do well against a style like DLH out boxing him, Bhop out boxing him, or Winky's high guard and controlling him with foot movement.
I brought up DLh as a comparison point. Not sure how you can say that Hopkins is more accomplished than DLH. That's honestly kinda silly to me. Oscar got a couple gift decisions and also lost some bad decisions too. That's boxing. A lot of people thought that Winky did enough to win against BHOP but also thought he beat Calzaghe? He was in a lot of close fights, it's boxing. Judges make bad decisions. You also have to take into account that Oscar's fanbase was way bigger, so the crowd cheers more even if he hits a guy on the gloves as opposed to clean landing shots. That sways judges all the time. Not saying it's okay, but it happens. That's not DLH's fault
If hopkins didn't exist at MW there would have been numerous guys that could have dominated or had good runs, including Trinidad. Echols, Keith Holmes, Joppy, David Jackson, all these guys were solid fighters and if it wasn't for hopkins, they likely would have had stellar careers.
Compared to right now though, it was a great division. Right now you have two junior middleweights as your best middleweights, that really tells you how bad it is now. (although on the brightside there seems to be a lot of good promising talent on the rise..)
No modern fighter is top 20 all time great bro. No one. Not even pacquiao.
Hopkins & Jones are however top 50 fighters of all time and hopkins is top 3 or 4 all time great Middlewight, which says a lot.
I would have Marvin Hagler #1, #2 Carlos Monzon, #3 Bernard Hopkins.
I think I made a strong case for Johnson and I stand by that. I've read several articles recently that agree with me and I'm satisfied with that. Bottom line is I said he was "borderline" hall of fame anyway so it should be a non-issue.
Damaged goods? His first fight coming down from HW was against Tarver, which he won. He lost the rematch with a one punch knock out. Against Johnson, it wasn't a case of someone being damaged it was a case of Johnson beating the shit out of him by his extreme aggression, strength and pure determination & hunger. It was a savage beating and Johnson should get credit for it. In fact he did - he was fighter of the year that year with wins over Tarver & Roy Jones. He would have fought Calzaghe immediately after but Calzaghe pulled out (four times).
It's a little different. With Cloud I am saying he is naturally a light heavyweight. Roy Jones was never naturally a heavyweight.
Also, I think the roy jones excuse of him losing weight is overblown like crazy. You know why? Because Jones had a YEAR AND A HALF of time from going down back to his regular 175 weight, fought Tarver (and won), then fought Tarver again and lost. A year and a half is plenty of time. People act like Jones weighed 200+ pounds plus and immediately went down in weight and lost to tarver. No, he had a year and half!
The concern is when you rapidly lose weight, not when you do it in a year and a half...
What does this have to do with anything? Why in the world would hopkins rematch a fighter he absolutely dominated? This is retarded. This is like saying Pacquiao should get critisized because Cotto or David Diaz wants a rematch.
IMO rematches should only occur because of close fights or contraversy. Not after you get dominated.
For the record Tarver also wanted to rematch Hopkins.
Shannon Briggs is also asking for an immediate rematch with Vitali Klitschko.
Silly point.
Little lesser known fact is that Hopkins eventually agreed to 60/40 split, then when Hopkins got the contract the fine print made it about 70-30 in Jones' favor and like Hopkins said, he's nobody's bitch.
Hopkins and Jones also agreed to fight two other times then Jones lost (tarver & Johnson and again later after Calzaghe).
For whatever reasons, they didn't fight when they should have (2001-2002). It shouldn't really matter though since they werne't in the same weight class at the time (hopkins was still MW while Jones was LH).
Trinidad had tons of options man don't act like hopkins was the only person in the world. Oscar de la hoya, roy jones, winky, etc etc etc etc
Mayorga is an extremely mediocre fighter.
Might as well bring up sugar ray robinson while we're at it.
Most boxing historians rank hopkins higher than oscar on the all time great list for a reason bro. There is the common saying that oscar was good but lost all his big fights (which I don't personally totally agree with). But really, if you think about it, his best win was Vargas. He should have lost to Whitaker, Sturm, he beat a lot of faded guys like Chavez sr, Hector Camacho, etc., beat up Gatti who was tiny, etc.
Now, I'm not trying to sound like bigface discrediting Oscar, because he had an amazing career, but to me, hopkins was the far superior fighter in every regard.
And those are all post 40 years of age (including Taylor). And that speaks volumes about hopkins. The only fight he legitimately lost was to Roy Jones. Hopkins, from Roy Jones, till the age he was 40 years old, hardly lost a round. That is amazing and that's why historians have hopkins ranked higher than oscar.
Compared to right now though, it was a great division. Right now you have two junior middleweights as your best middleweights, that really tells you how bad it is now. (although on the brightside there seems to be a lot of good promising talent on the rise..)
No modern fighter is top 20 all time great bro. No one. Not even pacquiao.
Hopkins & Jones are however top 50 fighters of all time and hopkins is top 3 or 4 all time great Middlewight, which says a lot.
I would have Marvin Hagler #1, #2 Carlos Monzon, #3 Bernard Hopkins.
I think I made a strong case for Johnson and I stand by that. I've read several articles recently that agree with me and I'm satisfied with that. Bottom line is I said he was "borderline" hall of fame anyway so it should be a non-issue.
Damaged goods? His first fight coming down from HW was against Tarver, which he won. He lost the rematch with a one punch knock out. Against Johnson, it wasn't a case of someone being damaged it was a case of Johnson beating the shit out of him by his extreme aggression, strength and pure determination & hunger. It was a savage beating and Johnson should get credit for it. In fact he did - he was fighter of the year that year with wins over Tarver & Roy Jones. He would have fought Calzaghe immediately after but Calzaghe pulled out (four times).
It's a little different. With Cloud I am saying he is naturally a light heavyweight. Roy Jones was never naturally a heavyweight.
Also, I think the roy jones excuse of him losing weight is overblown like crazy. You know why? Because Jones had a YEAR AND A HALF of time from going down back to his regular 175 weight, fought Tarver (and won), then fought Tarver again and lost. A year and a half is plenty of time. People act like Jones weighed 200+ pounds plus and immediately went down in weight and lost to tarver. No, he had a year and half!
The concern is when you rapidly lose weight, not when you do it in a year and a half...
What does this have to do with anything? Why in the world would hopkins rematch a fighter he absolutely dominated? This is retarded. This is like saying Pacquiao should get critisized because Cotto or David Diaz wants a rematch.
IMO rematches should only occur because of close fights or contraversy. Not after you get dominated.
For the record Tarver also wanted to rematch Hopkins.
Shannon Briggs is also asking for an immediate rematch with Vitali Klitschko.
Silly point.
Little lesser known fact is that Hopkins eventually agreed to 60/40 split, then when Hopkins got the contract the fine print made it about 70-30 in Jones' favor and like Hopkins said, he's nobody's bitch.
Hopkins and Jones also agreed to fight two other times then Jones lost (tarver & Johnson and again later after Calzaghe).
For whatever reasons, they didn't fight when they should have (2001-2002). It shouldn't really matter though since they werne't in the same weight class at the time (hopkins was still MW while Jones was LH).
Trinidad had tons of options man don't act like hopkins was the only person in the world. Oscar de la hoya, roy jones, winky, etc etc etc etc
Mayorga is an extremely mediocre fighter.
Might as well bring up sugar ray robinson while we're at it.
Most boxing historians rank hopkins higher than oscar on the all time great list for a reason bro. There is the common saying that oscar was good but lost all his big fights (which I don't personally totally agree with). But really, if you think about it, his best win was Vargas. He should have lost to Whitaker, Sturm, he beat a lot of faded guys like Chavez sr, Hector Camacho, etc., beat up Gatti who was tiny, etc.
Now, I'm not trying to sound like bigface discrediting Oscar, because he had an amazing career, but to me, hopkins was the far superior fighter in every regard.
And those are all post 40 years of age (including Taylor). And that speaks volumes about hopkins. The only fight he legitimately lost was to Roy Jones. Hopkins, from Roy Jones, till the age he was 40 years old, hardly lost a round. That is amazing and that's why historians have hopkins ranked higher than oscar.
In regards to Hopkins ranking higher than Oscar by boxing historians:
*In 2002 The Ring Magazine released their "top 80 fighters of all time" and Hopkins was #50 and Oscar was #76. (Hopkins is even higher now considering since then he beat Oscar, Joppy, Eastman, Pavlik and won LHW titles over the age of 40.
*Bert Sugar's top 100 list (who is notorious for ranking oldschool fighters extremely high) has Hopkins at #91 and Oscar didn't make the list at all.
*ESPN's top 50 of all time list (from 2007), ranks Hopkins at #47 and Oscar didn't make the list.
*In 2002 The Ring Magazine released their "top 80 fighters of all time" and Hopkins was #50 and Oscar was #76. (Hopkins is even higher now considering since then he beat Oscar, Joppy, Eastman, Pavlik and won LHW titles over the age of 40.
*Bert Sugar's top 100 list (who is notorious for ranking oldschool fighters extremely high) has Hopkins at #91 and Oscar didn't make the list at all.
*ESPN's top 50 of all time list (from 2007), ranks Hopkins at #47 and Oscar didn't make the list.
This is going to take longer than I feel like talking about at the moment, especially since I said I would be willing to agree to disagree but in order to what you said...
Trinidad is already a sure fire hall of famer, he had a plenty good run to begin with. He'd fought like 44 times before he retired, faced top opposition, Champion in 3 weight classes etc... Jackson and Echols were not dominant outside of facing Hopkins was my point. Those guys weren't bad fighters but they were greats by any means either. It's not out of the realm of possibility that a top 5 MW in this generation could beat one from BHOP's era. This era still sucks for the most part for MW's but they certainly weren't GREAT by any criteria in Bhops era. Regardless of whether BHop was at the top or not.
I'm not a pacquiao fan by any means and that's a long conversation in itself. I think he's feasted on guys past their prime more than anyone including DLH but, he's a top 20 fighter all time. I may not like it, but he is and he's not even retired yet.
There may very well be people that agree with you about Glen Johnson but he wasn't dominant in a not so good LHW division. Why should that be Hall of Fame worthy? Tarver was never "great" and Jones had already been knocked the hell out by Tarver by the time Johnson did it. He beat some other titlists and he's had a good career but the hall of fame should be for the very best fighters.
Roy Jones WAS damaged goods. He didn't have a year and a half before he fought Tarver and that was a close fight too man. It's not like he wiped the floor with Tarver the first fight, which is why Tarver asked if Roy had any excuses before the fight started. Jones had 8 months between his HW fight with Ruiz, then about 14 months total before fighting Tarver the 2nd time. He only had about a year and a half total before fighting Glen Johnson after coming down from HW, so yes, it's a very big deal. He wasn't exactly a natural light heavyweight either but on top of that, they'd built up tight muscle for his fight with Ruiz. So naturally a heavyweight or not, it was mostly muscle he lost to come down. Even if it's wasn't all muscle, name a fighter that's dropped that much weight and been successful in their next five fights or at all in their career. That's why it was a big deal that he was even trying to do it.
The point about the BHOP-Tito rematch wasn't about bhop. I'm not criticizing him for that. I'm saying that Tito didn't have a lot of options that help a fighter like him get excited to train. That's the one guy he wanted and he couldn't get him. He had a grip of money and had a hall of fame career already. People have retired for less reasons.
Tito didn't have a TON of options at that time. Oscar wasn't going to go up to 160 and Tito always said in that era that 160 is his weight division. It's no secret that he had trouble making weight or just wasn't motivated enough or whatever. He looked soft at the weight in terms of his body and he wasn't going lower, Oscar wasn't going higher at that time either. Winky Wright was best known for losing to Vargas and beating Bronco McKart. He wasn't a ppv interest even after he beat Mosley, how is that a good option after fighting in such a large stage for the last 6 years like Tito had?
Mayorga is well beyond mediocre as a fighter and only slightly better by achievements, but a lot of people picked him to beat Mayorga at that time. He had a crappy record when he fought Tito, he'd just become the dude at 147lbs by beating the crap out of Vernon Forrest. He'd BARELY lost to Cory Spinks, beat some other dude I can't remember then fought Trinidad. He was more than a viable opponent at that time. In retrospect, he's not much more mediocre than Taylor and he beat BHOP twice. Disputed decisions or not.
I brought up DLH because he was a more accomplished fighter in his era. No reason to bring up Robinson, or even Leonard for that fact.
Trinidad is already a sure fire hall of famer, he had a plenty good run to begin with. He'd fought like 44 times before he retired, faced top opposition, Champion in 3 weight classes etc... Jackson and Echols were not dominant outside of facing Hopkins was my point. Those guys weren't bad fighters but they were greats by any means either. It's not out of the realm of possibility that a top 5 MW in this generation could beat one from BHOP's era. This era still sucks for the most part for MW's but they certainly weren't GREAT by any criteria in Bhops era. Regardless of whether BHop was at the top or not.
I'm not a pacquiao fan by any means and that's a long conversation in itself. I think he's feasted on guys past their prime more than anyone including DLH but, he's a top 20 fighter all time. I may not like it, but he is and he's not even retired yet.
There may very well be people that agree with you about Glen Johnson but he wasn't dominant in a not so good LHW division. Why should that be Hall of Fame worthy? Tarver was never "great" and Jones had already been knocked the hell out by Tarver by the time Johnson did it. He beat some other titlists and he's had a good career but the hall of fame should be for the very best fighters.
Roy Jones WAS damaged goods. He didn't have a year and a half before he fought Tarver and that was a close fight too man. It's not like he wiped the floor with Tarver the first fight, which is why Tarver asked if Roy had any excuses before the fight started. Jones had 8 months between his HW fight with Ruiz, then about 14 months total before fighting Tarver the 2nd time. He only had about a year and a half total before fighting Glen Johnson after coming down from HW, so yes, it's a very big deal. He wasn't exactly a natural light heavyweight either but on top of that, they'd built up tight muscle for his fight with Ruiz. So naturally a heavyweight or not, it was mostly muscle he lost to come down. Even if it's wasn't all muscle, name a fighter that's dropped that much weight and been successful in their next five fights or at all in their career. That's why it was a big deal that he was even trying to do it.
The point about the BHOP-Tito rematch wasn't about bhop. I'm not criticizing him for that. I'm saying that Tito didn't have a lot of options that help a fighter like him get excited to train. That's the one guy he wanted and he couldn't get him. He had a grip of money and had a hall of fame career already. People have retired for less reasons.
Tito didn't have a TON of options at that time. Oscar wasn't going to go up to 160 and Tito always said in that era that 160 is his weight division. It's no secret that he had trouble making weight or just wasn't motivated enough or whatever. He looked soft at the weight in terms of his body and he wasn't going lower, Oscar wasn't going higher at that time either. Winky Wright was best known for losing to Vargas and beating Bronco McKart. He wasn't a ppv interest even after he beat Mosley, how is that a good option after fighting in such a large stage for the last 6 years like Tito had?
Mayorga is well beyond mediocre as a fighter and only slightly better by achievements, but a lot of people picked him to beat Mayorga at that time. He had a crappy record when he fought Tito, he'd just become the dude at 147lbs by beating the crap out of Vernon Forrest. He'd BARELY lost to Cory Spinks, beat some other dude I can't remember then fought Trinidad. He was more than a viable opponent at that time. In retrospect, he's not much more mediocre than Taylor and he beat BHOP twice. Disputed decisions or not.
I brought up DLH because he was a more accomplished fighter in his era. No reason to bring up Robinson, or even Leonard for that fact.
I'm aware of how good pacquiao is but unless he beats mayweather he's not going to be top 20. You're talking about 100+ years of the sport, guys with hundreds of fights, etc. It's very hard to do for a modern fighter. This is the Rings top 20 (from 2002):
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
And that doesn't even include Salvador Sanchez, Charley Burley, Kid Gavilian, Emile Griffith, Gene Tunney, Dick Tiger , Panama Al Brown, Kid Chocolate , Fighting Harada, Holyfield, Foreman.
I don't know if pacquiao can take anyones spot there as of right now. Beat mayweather then yeah, top 20. Until then he's somewhere between 25-40. And I'm a huge pacquiao fan.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
And that doesn't even include Salvador Sanchez, Charley Burley, Kid Gavilian, Emile Griffith, Gene Tunney, Dick Tiger , Panama Al Brown, Kid Chocolate , Fighting Harada, Holyfield, Foreman.
I don't know if pacquiao can take anyones spot there as of right now. Beat mayweather then yeah, top 20. Until then he's somewhere between 25-40. And I'm a huge pacquiao fan.
Once again I never said Bhop's MW era was one of the greatest but it was solid and far better than it was now. His era was the best since hagler/hearns/leonard days.
Hopkins also unified ALL of the belts something no man has done in ANY weight class. Count 'em:
This is also why historians rank hopkins high. he beat everyone in the division and took all the belts and defended them.
I don't know why you continue to press this issue when I said multiple times now "borderline" hall of fame, meaning close to it or debatable, etc. Let it go.
You are proving my point. 14 months that's plenty of time to lose weight and get adjusted. Further, I think more than anything the reason Jones loss wasn't because of losing weight, it was in fact he was getting a little older. Because Jones never used basic boxing fundementals and relied pretty much 100% on reflexes, once those started to slip just a little bit he got hit more.
Ask yourself if hopkins didn't destroy Tito would he have retired? Nope, he was planning on fighting Roy Jones it was to be the next super fight in boxing.
Tito lost to hopkins, lost his desire to box. In other words Hopkins took his soul. Hopkins took tito's love for the game and sent him into retirement. Similar Marquez did that to Prince Nasim. You beat an undefeated fighter so badly some of them go into hiding. Tito & Prince are examples of that.
Tito was a huge attraction he could have fought anyone and made a shitload of money. He choice not to. Why? Hopkins took the fighting spirit out of him. He didn't love the game no more.
haha wow man just stop. Taylor was a great fighter, a highly achieved Amateur and won bronze in the Olympics and was groomed from the start to be one of the next greats. Hopkins "lost" to taylor at age 40, a factor you continue to ignore.
Mayorga was basically a club fighter who won a couple of good fights and shocked vernon forrest. He's kind of like a carlos baldimor a tough dude with very limited skills that overachieved.
For the record I LOVE mayorga.
Again hopkins ranks higher than oscar all time though, so you can say oscar is more "accomplished" but he's not better. More money more fans, yes, better or more accomplished, no.
Hopkins also unified ALL of the belts something no man has done in ANY weight class. Count 'em:
This is also why historians rank hopkins high. he beat everyone in the division and took all the belts and defended them.
I don't know why you continue to press this issue when I said multiple times now "borderline" hall of fame, meaning close to it or debatable, etc. Let it go.
You are proving my point. 14 months that's plenty of time to lose weight and get adjusted. Further, I think more than anything the reason Jones loss wasn't because of losing weight, it was in fact he was getting a little older. Because Jones never used basic boxing fundementals and relied pretty much 100% on reflexes, once those started to slip just a little bit he got hit more.
Ask yourself if hopkins didn't destroy Tito would he have retired? Nope, he was planning on fighting Roy Jones it was to be the next super fight in boxing.
Tito lost to hopkins, lost his desire to box. In other words Hopkins took his soul. Hopkins took tito's love for the game and sent him into retirement. Similar Marquez did that to Prince Nasim. You beat an undefeated fighter so badly some of them go into hiding. Tito & Prince are examples of that.
Tito was a huge attraction he could have fought anyone and made a shitload of money. He choice not to. Why? Hopkins took the fighting spirit out of him. He didn't love the game no more.
haha wow man just stop. Taylor was a great fighter, a highly achieved Amateur and won bronze in the Olympics and was groomed from the start to be one of the next greats. Hopkins "lost" to taylor at age 40, a factor you continue to ignore.
Mayorga was basically a club fighter who won a couple of good fights and shocked vernon forrest. He's kind of like a carlos baldimor a tough dude with very limited skills that overachieved.
For the record I LOVE mayorga.
Again hopkins ranks higher than oscar all time though, so you can say oscar is more "accomplished" but he's not better. More money more fans, yes, better or more accomplished, no.
I'm pretty much tired of debating this, mainly cause you'll never stop arguing it and I realize that. but Taylor was not a great fighter, you through that word around loosely. Plenty of fighters could've dominated 1 division over and over but choose to move up in weight for bigger challenges, another reason why they don't rack up as many defenses but also end up making more money than hopkins has. He achieved a ton in the MW division, no doubt but it's not like other people couldn't have done that too. People freakin HATE de la hoya. People either give his credit or hate on him. He won titles from 130-160. That's more impressive than defending belts in the same weight class. Tito took off 2 years. What was going on in the MW division during that time? Nothing at all. He's the move beloved puerto rican fighter ever and one of the richest fighters and most accomplished of his generation, why would he keep fighting? He had no chance against Roy Jones at 175 or even 168. That would've been silly and everyone would agree. Hopkins ranks higher in ability, not accomplishment. A lot of people on all time lists didn't achieve as much as DLH that are higher than him on the list but they were more skilled, that's why they're there. Same thing with Hopkins
But no one had done what hopkins did. 20 title defenses and unified ALL of the belts. No one did that.
hehe oscar's "belt" at 160 was fraudulent you know that.
How come you don't comment on the fact no boxing historian has oscar ranked higher than hopkins? All you're doing is saying oscar had a great career, which agreed on from the start. My arguement here is simple - hopkins ranks higher than oscar all time, and this is backed by boxing historians, people who know far more about boxing that us combined.
IMO it isn't. People who weight jump pick and choose a fight or two then leave the division. They don't stick around and DEFEND the belts against mandatories and the #1, #2, #3 ranked guys. So sometomes (not always) weight jumping and winning titles is a not as impressive as fightint EVERYONE in one division.
Take Marvin Hagler for example. He fought his entire career at 160 pounds. 67 fights. He fought EVERYONE, unified the belts and defended I believe 14 times. Is that less impressive than someone like oscar who goes up in weight wins a title or two then dumps them and moves on? I don't think so. And historians would agree as Hagler is a top 20 fighter all time.
Why are you stuck on MW? Tito could have fought from 154 - 168. His plan prior to losing to Hopkins was to fight Roy Jones at 168. He had options. But he lost his desire, simple as that.
For the love of the game? Why does roy jones, bernard hopkins, holyfield, tyson, ali, leonard, etc etc etc keep fighting after being rich as fuck?
Again, if hopkins didn't whoop his ass he would have never of retired. Hopkins took his manhood.
That's besides the point. At the time Roy Jones vs Tito at 168 was already in place and was being built up. Tito was a 7-1 favorite to beat Hopkins. All tito has to do was win and Don King has Roy Jones set up for a super PPV event. This is well documented. hind site is 20/20. Looking back it's easy to see jones would have beat tito, but at the time it was the super fight everyone wanted. And hopkins derailed it by knocking out tito and tito retired as a result. This is factual.
Oscar's best win is Vargas so I'm sorry his accomplishments are not the same as hopkins.
hehe oscar's "belt" at 160 was fraudulent you know that.
How come you don't comment on the fact no boxing historian has oscar ranked higher than hopkins? All you're doing is saying oscar had a great career, which agreed on from the start. My arguement here is simple - hopkins ranks higher than oscar all time, and this is backed by boxing historians, people who know far more about boxing that us combined.
IMO it isn't. People who weight jump pick and choose a fight or two then leave the division. They don't stick around and DEFEND the belts against mandatories and the #1, #2, #3 ranked guys. So sometomes (not always) weight jumping and winning titles is a not as impressive as fightint EVERYONE in one division.
Take Marvin Hagler for example. He fought his entire career at 160 pounds. 67 fights. He fought EVERYONE, unified the belts and defended I believe 14 times. Is that less impressive than someone like oscar who goes up in weight wins a title or two then dumps them and moves on? I don't think so. And historians would agree as Hagler is a top 20 fighter all time.
Why are you stuck on MW? Tito could have fought from 154 - 168. His plan prior to losing to Hopkins was to fight Roy Jones at 168. He had options. But he lost his desire, simple as that.
For the love of the game? Why does roy jones, bernard hopkins, holyfield, tyson, ali, leonard, etc etc etc keep fighting after being rich as fuck?
Again, if hopkins didn't whoop his ass he would have never of retired. Hopkins took his manhood.
That's besides the point. At the time Roy Jones vs Tito at 168 was already in place and was being built up. Tito was a 7-1 favorite to beat Hopkins. All tito has to do was win and Don King has Roy Jones set up for a super PPV event. This is well documented. hind site is 20/20. Looking back it's easy to see jones would have beat tito, but at the time it was the super fight everyone wanted. And hopkins derailed it by knocking out tito and tito retired as a result. This is factual.
Oscar's best win is Vargas so I'm sorry his accomplishments are not the same as hopkins.