David Haye vs Wlad Klitschko (July)
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Then which ATG besides a faded Larry Holmes did Tyson beat to make it to your list? People for the most part pick Tyson to beat people that beat fighters far better than himself on a consistent basis based only on his ferocity in the ring. That's a flawed argument, I can use my eyes to see what I think would happen between two fighters that I've seen plenty of.
Quality of opponents is the only way to judge fighters if you never watch them fight. i.e. the only way I can judge how someone like Burley would do against ATG middleweights is by his opponents and reading about him because only one fight of his is available on film. The only way to rank him as an ATG is by quality, but to look at two men fight and make an observation on who I think would win or if this person could give that person fits it's absolutely not the only way.
Quality of opponents is the only way to judge fighters if you never watch them fight. i.e. the only way I can judge how someone like Burley would do against ATG middleweights is by his opponents and reading about him because only one fight of his is available on film. The only way to rank him as an ATG is by quality, but to look at two men fight and make an observation on who I think would win or if this person could give that person fits it's absolutely not the only way.
In fairness Tyson isn't ranked very high on the all time great list. Many historians of the sport don't have Tyson ranked in the top 100 at all or if he is it's right around that 100 spot. There has been great debate for some time on how good Tyson really was, because of his resume. He beat guys like Spinks, Bruno & Ruddock of course before going to prison. But he was the youngest heavyweight champ of all time and of course he unified the division in a very short amount of time, the first person to do so since Ali. So he did have some historic accomplishments. And the fact he went to prison for four years can't be overlooked. Tyson is not a very good example because of such strange circumstances. There is a lot of "what could have been" when looking back at Tyson.
Regardless, the reason I'm sure HERSEY picked Tyson to beat Wlad is because Wlad was KO'd by Corrie Sanders. And Brewster. And Ross Puritty. And knocked down three times against Peter. The guy is chinny. He doesn't like being hit. We don't see it often the last few fights but Wlad kind of freaks out whenever someone gets in close and starts touching him. He gets all panicky and clinches and looks very uncomfortable and awkward. If Tyson can bob & weave inside and just land one big hook it's over.
Yeah, that's a good point, and I think when talking about old times it's legit. But how is it any different from looking at a prospect who looks really, really good, then the first time he steps up gets totally smashed on? How many times have you seen that happen? So you never really know how good a fighter is until he fights a good fighter.
And what if that same prospect never stepped up and just continued fighting lower level guys? People would think "wow this guy is a beast he just dominates everyone!" But his skills, talent, would be deceiving because he never stepped up.
This is why I believe Vitali is the Klitschko who ranks higher and would do better against past champs. We've seen him in the ring with an all time great in Lennox Lewis and it was a hell of a fight. He held his own (if not for his face melting off). Wlad's best wins....they just don't do much for me. Byrd, Peter, Ibragimov....these guys would all get killed by decent fighters of old as well.
Regardless, the reason I'm sure HERSEY picked Tyson to beat Wlad is because Wlad was KO'd by Corrie Sanders. And Brewster. And Ross Puritty. And knocked down three times against Peter. The guy is chinny. He doesn't like being hit. We don't see it often the last few fights but Wlad kind of freaks out whenever someone gets in close and starts touching him. He gets all panicky and clinches and looks very uncomfortable and awkward. If Tyson can bob & weave inside and just land one big hook it's over.
Yeah, that's a good point, and I think when talking about old times it's legit. But how is it any different from looking at a prospect who looks really, really good, then the first time he steps up gets totally smashed on? How many times have you seen that happen? So you never really know how good a fighter is until he fights a good fighter.
And what if that same prospect never stepped up and just continued fighting lower level guys? People would think "wow this guy is a beast he just dominates everyone!" But his skills, talent, would be deceiving because he never stepped up.
This is why I believe Vitali is the Klitschko who ranks higher and would do better against past champs. We've seen him in the ring with an all time great in Lennox Lewis and it was a hell of a fight. He held his own (if not for his face melting off). Wlad's best wins....they just don't do much for me. Byrd, Peter, Ibragimov....these guys would all get killed by decent fighters of old as well.
He didn't have to beat any all time greats to make the list. The fact that he fought ATG's, coupled with his accomplishments (youngest heavyweight, unifying the belts, etc), and the fact that many of his opponents had way more experience than he did puts him on the list. Bonecrusher, Tucker, Green, Thomas, etc. Are boxing fans asking for the Klitschko era? Nope. They are saying they want the "Tyson era" or the 80's and 90's, a time where the division was full of up and comers and people who were established.
And a prime Tyson destroys both Klitschkos. A prime Tyson will bob and weave like 206 mentioned, he's slipping, he is constantly guarding (and one of few people who is actually good at countering from that guard stance), he's jabbing, he's throwing in combinations, he is going to the body when he gets inside and then he's going for your head. I'm sorry, but neither Klitschkos have anything to counter those tactics.
See above.
And the brothers lack quality opponents. There are archives/films of a lot of ATG that you can watch. Moreover, when considering ATGs, you also have to consider the fact that they were fighting each other without a lot of problems (no random drug testing or shit like that), the fights were longer, and for black fighters, a fucked up political climate.
You'll be hard pressed to see the Klitschkos on anyones top 100 list.
And a prime Tyson destroys both Klitschkos. A prime Tyson will bob and weave like 206 mentioned, he's slipping, he is constantly guarding (and one of few people who is actually good at countering from that guard stance), he's jabbing, he's throwing in combinations, he is going to the body when he gets inside and then he's going for your head. I'm sorry, but neither Klitschkos have anything to counter those tactics.
See above.
And the brothers lack quality opponents. There are archives/films of a lot of ATG that you can watch. Moreover, when considering ATGs, you also have to consider the fact that they were fighting each other without a lot of problems (no random drug testing or shit like that), the fights were longer, and for black fighters, a fucked up political climate.
You'll be hard pressed to see the Klitschkos on anyones top 100 list.
Popularity doesn't = greatness. I don't care what Tyson has done popularity wise or how scary he was, he doesn't have the wins to back anything up and yet people say he'd crush almost anyone but if it's said about Wlad it's a joke.
We can argue all you'd want but the fact remains Wlad can't go back in time to fight people and I'll go by what I've seen and how I think the match ups would play out. I never claimed Klitschko to be the greatest ever but he'd damn sure beat some of the guys that people say are the greatest of all time.
I'd be hard pressed to find Klitschkos in a top 100 heavyweight list?
And there's not as much film as you'd think. A lot of shotty highlight films etc. The extremely popular fighters have plenty but even someone as good as Gene Tunney has barely any film out there for him (especially full fights).
We can argue all you'd want but the fact remains Wlad can't go back in time to fight people and I'll go by what I've seen and how I think the match ups would play out. I never claimed Klitschko to be the greatest ever but he'd damn sure beat some of the guys that people say are the greatest of all time.
I'd be hard pressed to find Klitschkos in a top 100 heavyweight list?
And there's not as much film as you'd think. A lot of shotty highlight films etc. The extremely popular fighters have plenty but even someone as good as Gene Tunney has barely any film out there for him (especially full fights).
That's exactly my point though. Everyone does it with prospects. To say I can't watch 2 guys fights and assess their skills and think it would be a tougher fight than expected is just silly.
I said Gamboa would be a future HOF'er when he first bust on the scene (maybe even on this website) based only on what I watched him do, he could've got KOd in 7th fight and it'd look like a silly comment, that's why people fight. I'm not right all time but from watching Klitschko fight and watching plenty of footage of heavyweight greats I can make up my own mind without having to look at records.
There's not many guys throughout that fight Klitschkos style at his height and with his power so it's not like they fought a guy similar to him that anyone can make a reasonable comparison. HERESY saying they'd be destroyed is just as much a guess as me saying they'd be competitive.
I said Gamboa would be a future HOF'er when he first bust on the scene (maybe even on this website) based only on what I watched him do, he could've got KOd in 7th fight and it'd look like a silly comment, that's why people fight. I'm not right all time but from watching Klitschko fight and watching plenty of footage of heavyweight greats I can make up my own mind without having to look at records.
There's not many guys throughout that fight Klitschkos style at his height and with his power so it's not like they fought a guy similar to him that anyone can make a reasonable comparison. HERESY saying they'd be destroyed is just as much a guess as me saying they'd be competitive.
I do see what you're saying, and I agree with most all of it, I guess it's just the fact that Wlad is so damn chinny. That really hurts his legacy and when we do these fantasy fight matches for debate, it's really, really hard to overlook the fact that he got KO'd multiple times by guys no heavyweight fighter should be getting KO'd by. So even though Wlad has improved his game, that chin, man, it's still his weakest point. When we talk about guys in the past with power, it's hard to say Wlad could beat them based on that.
A lower level example of that is Amir Khan. Yeah he's doing real well right now, but think if he fought Aaron Pryor or Chavez Sr. or any other 140 pound great? It's impossible to pick Khan because his chin is his weak point.
I disagree with HERSEY in regards to Vitali, though. I think he is a badass (he's just old now).
If you could combine Vitali's chin and Wlad's jab, then there is the ultimate fighter!
A lower level example of that is Amir Khan. Yeah he's doing real well right now, but think if he fought Aaron Pryor or Chavez Sr. or any other 140 pound great? It's impossible to pick Khan because his chin is his weak point.
I disagree with HERSEY in regards to Vitali, though. I think he is a badass (he's just old now).
If you could combine Vitali's chin and Wlad's jab, then there is the ultimate fighter!
He does have the wins to back it up. Look at the quality of opponents he has faced and beaten and look at the quality of opponents both Klitschko's have beaten. Tyson wins. Again, you aren't going to find the Klitschkos on anyones all time greatest heavies list. However, you WILL find Mike Tyson on numerous lists. And who said anything about popularity or how scary he was? People understand that the 80's and 90's was a good time for the heavyweight division, what do you have now? A circus act.
A PRIME Tyson has the SKILLS to chop both men down. One would have been chopped down in under five the other would have crumbled by nine.
Not with fighting medicore opponents. The best person either opponent has fought is Lennox Lewis and contrary to what you may believe, Lewis was actually on the decline. Yes he took out Tyson, who was past his prime when they fought in 8 rounds, but he took out Vitali in 6. Tyson had 3 losses and like two or three no contests on his record when he fought Lewis. Klitschko had one loss before Lewis made him look retarded.
Right now you will find them because they are active and have a few belts, but when it comes to a top 100 ATG or Heavy ATG you won't see them.
Not as much film as I think? Again, there are a lot of films of the ATGs. You won't find as many films of Jack Johnson as you would an Archie Moore, or Ali, but they are out there. It simply depends on the fighter and the era. Of course the mor eyou go back the less footage you'll see but there are plenty of blogs, tube sites, restoration sites and boxing sites that have the material, not to mention some of the stuff old collectors may have.
and @ 206, I have Tyson, Big George, Norton, Bruno, Louis, Ali and a couple of others to KO Vitali. If Lewis can make him look retarded then the other guys, in their PRIME, would feast on this guy.
A PRIME Tyson has the SKILLS to chop both men down. One would have been chopped down in under five the other would have crumbled by nine.
Not with fighting medicore opponents. The best person either opponent has fought is Lennox Lewis and contrary to what you may believe, Lewis was actually on the decline. Yes he took out Tyson, who was past his prime when they fought in 8 rounds, but he took out Vitali in 6. Tyson had 3 losses and like two or three no contests on his record when he fought Lewis. Klitschko had one loss before Lewis made him look retarded.
Right now you will find them because they are active and have a few belts, but when it comes to a top 100 ATG or Heavy ATG you won't see them.
Not as much film as I think? Again, there are a lot of films of the ATGs. You won't find as many films of Jack Johnson as you would an Archie Moore, or Ali, but they are out there. It simply depends on the fighter and the era. Of course the mor eyou go back the less footage you'll see but there are plenty of blogs, tube sites, restoration sites and boxing sites that have the material, not to mention some of the stuff old collectors may have.
and @ 206, I have Tyson, Big George, Norton, Bruno, Louis, Ali and a couple of others to KO Vitali. If Lewis can make him look retarded then the other guys, in their PRIME, would feast on this guy.
No there isn't. All I do is collect fights. There's plenty of great fighters that don't have much in the way of film out there. Willie Pep has 241 records with plenty of hall of famers mixed in there and his most popular fights against Sandy Saddler aren't even all out there. Like I said popular fighters have plenty out there, but the great fighters that weren't popular at the time is slim pickings. If it's so easy for you to find I'd gladly give you a list and compensate you for easy work.
Yes there is, and while I don't collect fights, my big bro does (I've mentioned him before in this forum and he's the reason why I pay attention to boxing.)
You aren't reading, fam. It simply depends on the fighter and the era. Of course the more you go back the less footage you'll see but there are plenty of blogs, tube sites, restoration sites and boxing sites that have the material, not to mention some of the stuff old collectors may have. Are you going to find all of Pep's fights? No. All of Moores? No. All of Panama Al Browns? No, and btw I'm just listing him because he was a throwback fighter. Can you find some footage of the ATG? Yes, but it's not like there isn't footage out there, there is. It may not be every single fight, or even ten percent of a boxers fights, but material is out there.
See above and refer to my previous post. Join some of the boxing forums on the webs, peep some tube sites, etc. Better yet, I'll ask my bro where to look and who he can possibly connect you with.
You aren't reading, fam. It simply depends on the fighter and the era. Of course the more you go back the less footage you'll see but there are plenty of blogs, tube sites, restoration sites and boxing sites that have the material, not to mention some of the stuff old collectors may have. Are you going to find all of Pep's fights? No. All of Moores? No. All of Panama Al Browns? No, and btw I'm just listing him because he was a throwback fighter. Can you find some footage of the ATG? Yes, but it's not like there isn't footage out there, there is. It may not be every single fight, or even ten percent of a boxers fights, but material is out there.
See above and refer to my previous post. Join some of the boxing forums on the webs, peep some tube sites, etc. Better yet, I'll ask my bro where to look and who he can possibly connect you with.
I got the sites and I wasn't trying to be condescending, even though I just reread it and it came off like that. I'm being serious though I'll pay for certain if he has access to certain things that I couldn't come across.
Pretty much any Willie Pep fight besides..
Ralph Walton (12-9-5), 1945-01-23
Ray Famechon (59-5-0), 1950-03-17
Sandy Saddler III (114-7-2), 1950-09-08
Sandy Saddler IV (127-9-2), 1951-09-26
Armand Savoie (38-8-5), 1952-10-01
Fabela Chavez (43-15-4), 1952-11-19
Gil Cadilli II (22-3-3), 1955-05-18
Joey Cam (31-7-0), 1955-06-01
Jackie Lennon (8-10-3), 1965-04-26
Sugar Ray Robinson(exhibition), 1965-12-19
Sandy Saddler(exhibition), 1973-03-09
.. anything from the Archie Moore/Ezzard Charles fights. Anything Charley Burley except his second fight with Oakland Billy, who unfortunately Burley carried because he was his friend, so you couldn't really see what he was capable of. I'd take even slim highlights of Burley if they exist somewhere. Let him know I got plenty to trade as well, old and new. I'll take any old film I don't already have.
Pretty much any Willie Pep fight besides..
Ralph Walton (12-9-5), 1945-01-23
Ray Famechon (59-5-0), 1950-03-17
Sandy Saddler III (114-7-2), 1950-09-08
Sandy Saddler IV (127-9-2), 1951-09-26
Armand Savoie (38-8-5), 1952-10-01
Fabela Chavez (43-15-4), 1952-11-19
Gil Cadilli II (22-3-3), 1955-05-18
Joey Cam (31-7-0), 1955-06-01
Jackie Lennon (8-10-3), 1965-04-26
Sugar Ray Robinson(exhibition), 1965-12-19
Sandy Saddler(exhibition), 1973-03-09
.. anything from the Archie Moore/Ezzard Charles fights. Anything Charley Burley except his second fight with Oakland Billy, who unfortunately Burley carried because he was his friend, so you couldn't really see what he was capable of. I'd take even slim highlights of Burley if they exist somewhere. Let him know I got plenty to trade as well, old and new. I'll take any old film I don't already have.
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