18 Year old burns flag and goes to court! Real american HERO or real american FOOL?

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Apr 25, 2002
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#81
Journals and letters written by the fur traders who did man Fort Clark make it clear that they were appalled by the epidemic, in part because they had Indian wives and children and were thus a part of the Indian community.[14] The traders also had economic interests in keeping the Indians healthy. The trader Jacob Halsey—who himself contracted the smallpox—lamented that “the loss to the company by the introduction of this malady will be immense in fact incalculable as our most profitable Indians have died.”[15] The traders would not seem to have any incentive to wage biological warfare on their own families and their “most profitable Indians”, much less put their own lives at risk.

Churchill claims that vaccine was withheld by “the army”, citing Stearns & Stearns.[16] What the Stearns actually wrote was that “great care was exercised in the attempt to eliminate the transfer of the smallpox” by the traders, and that “a physician was dispatched for the sole purpose of vaccinating the affected tribes while the pestilence was at its height.” It is difficult to see how Churchill could have derived his reading of events from the Stearns.[17]

Churchill argues that the “post surgeon” ordered the Indians to scatter, thus strategically spreading the disease. But an eyewitness on the scene—the trader Jacob Halsey—complained in a letter that:

I could not prevent [the Indians] from camping round the Fort—they have caught the disease, notwithstanding I have never allowed an Indian to enter the Fort, or any communication between them & the Sick; but I presume the air was infected with it…my only hope is that the cold weather will put a stop to this disease…pray send some vaccine.[18]

This letter is printed as an appendix to Chardon’s journal, the only primary source that Churchill cites in support of his story.

What if the U.S. Army had been active in the region? Given the opportunity, would Army officers have had any motive to use biological warfare against the Mandans? Five years earlier, in 1832, Congress had passed an act and appropriated funds to establish a program for inoculating Indians on the Missouri River.[19] Given this Congressional mandate to protect Indians from smallpox, given the lack of hostilities between the U.S. military and the Mandans or any other Plains Indians at that time, and given the military’s lack of presence in the area of the Mandans at the time, Churchill’s version of events does not seem plausible, even in the context of counterfactual speculation.

Churchill argues that the disease’s vector was smallpox blankets given as gifts by the Army. None of the sources that Churchill cites mentions gift blankets. Available evidence indicates that the disease’s vector was either the trader Jacob Halsey himself, who arrived on the St. Peter already infected, or an Arikira Indian woman who also arrived on the steamboat in the same condition.[20] The primary source that Churchill cites makes it clear that the local traders considered the disease to be entirely accidental, and as unwelcome by the local whites as by the Indians.

Could Churchill’s Charge of Genocide Still Be Valid?

Is it possible that Churchill has additional sources which he did not cite that might still validate his charge against the US Army? Could it be that Churchill is guilty of no more than sloppy citations? In all fairness to Churchill, the smallpox blanket hypothesis of Plains epidemics dates back to the 19th century. In 1884, Hubert Howe Bancroft wrote of a smallpox outbreak in 1836, commenting in a footnote:

Beckwourth, the negro, was accused, I do not know how justly, of willfully sowing smallpox among the pestiferous Blackfeet, by disposing to them of certain infected articles brought from St. Louis.[21]

This story suggests that one element of Churchill’s version is not original to him—the deliberate infection, originating from St. Louis. But problems remain. Bancroft cites no sources, restricts this observation to a footnote, and does not seem confident in the rumor’s reliability. Testing the rumor against what is known, we find immediate contradictions. First, the Mandan epidemic broke out in June 1837, not 1836, and Mandan territory was distant from Blackfeet territory. Contemporary versions of the Beckwourth rumor have him visiting the Crow—not the Blackfeet—in the spring of 1837. Second, Beckwourth had been employed by the American Fur Company, and was trying to renew his contract with the company when he visited the Crow in 1837. He had operated a trading post among the Blackfeet, and married two Blackfeet women. Furthermore, Beckwourth had lived among the Crow for six to eight years, and had additional wives and relatives among that tribe as well. Beckwourth would have no more motive to deliberately infect his family members—and the potential trading partners of the company with which he was seeking a contract—than would the traders at Fort Clark.[22]

The trader Jacob Halsey wrote on November 2, 1837, that the smallpox epidemic had been introduced among the Blackfeet by a sojourning member of their own tribe, who had returned home on the steamboat St. Peter.[23] Thus Bancroft’s version of events is directly contradicted by the Halsey letter, which is contained in a book cited by Churchill.

For the sake of argument, give Churchill the benefit of the doubt. Excuse Churchill for being ignorant of Beckwourth’s biography, for not noticing the Halsey letter in the Chardon volume he cites, and for confusing Bancroft with Thornton. The problem remains: Where did Churchill get the idea of smallpox blankets originating in an Army infirmary? Where did Churchill get the idea that there was a post surgeon who told the Mandans to scatter and spread the disease? Where did Churchill get the idea that the Army withheld vaccine? These are the specific charges with which Churchill indicts the US Army with genocide. Not only do all of Churchill’s cited sources fail to support these charges—the broader literature fails to support the charges as well. Whence, then, did Churchill derive them?

Could Churchill have derived his story from an oral tradition? One of Churchill’s sources—Stearn & Stearn (81)—relates a story of a Mandan chief stealing an infected blanket from the steamboat. In the Stearns rendition, the trader Chardon tried to retrieve the infected blanket by promising to exchange it for clean ones. However, the source cited by the Stearns—Zenas Leonard’s narrative—does not contain this story. In fact, Leonard’s narrative ends in 1835, two years prior to the Mandan outbreak, and does not mention either Chardon or smallpox. Nor do the Stearns themselves seem to give the story much credence. Even if true, the story still directly contradicts Churchill’s claim that the army distributed infected blankets obtained from a military infirmary.

The Mandans do seem to have developed suspicions about the traders as the source of the disease. Chardon reports that on Sunday, July 30, 1837, a “Mandan Warrior” named Four Bears gave a speech blaming “the whites” for the epidemic. Chardon transcribes Four Bears’ speech into his journal, commenting that:

They threaten Death and Distruction to us all at this place, saying that I was the cause of the small pox Makeing its appearance in this country.[24]

Obviously the Mandans had a legitimate hypothesis on that point. But the contemporary Mandan grievances did not involve the Army or even mention it. Furthermore, Churchill does not cite Mandan oral history. Churchill cites sources that radically contradict his version.

Conclusion

Situating Churchill’s rendition of the epidemic in a broader historiographical analysis, one must reluctantly conclude that Churchill fabricated the most crucial details of his genocide story. Churchill radically misrepresented the sources he cites in support of his genocide charges, sources which say essentially the opposite of what Churchill attributes to them.

It is a distressing conclusion. One wants to think the best of fellow scholars. The scholarly enterprise depends on mutual trust. When one scholar violates that trust, it damages the legitimacy of the entire academy. Churchill has fabricated a genocide that never happened. It is difficult to conceive of a social scientist committing a more egregious violation.
 
Mar 15, 2005
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#82
Stealth said:
We have the Bill of Rights in place so that revolution is possible. We have free speech so we can speak out against our government. We have the right to bear arms so that we can defend ourselves should the government ever become too oppressive. The entire point of the Bill of Rights is to ensure that we are free to speak out and act out against our country should it become too corrupt. In the future, it may be necessary to speak out against our government, to overthrow or government, or to burn our flag. That is why we were given those rights..
I agree wit you but......

the war on terrorism, the Patriot Act, and Homeland Security have all been put in place to counteract these rights we once had.....the government has us on locc now and no one will ever be able to pull off a real revolution......

but if you somehow figure out how ill be the 1st to sign up!
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#83
hmmm...Genocide and NOT Genocide...both in 1 article

Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?
By Guenter Lewy
http://www.artsandlettersmagazine.com/GuenterLewy.html

In this article Guenter Lew argues that certain aspects of Native American/white interactions were genocide but the minority were not.

Which brings me to the final point I will address regarding genocide:
I do not justify America's actions, I have merely that slavery on the whole and Native American conflict on the whole were not genocide. I do not deny that Americans function from a realist standpoint even if rhetoric is pouring with idealism.

You have a different perception of what you consider genocide than I. You have used the UN term and also added "numbers" and "influence" which i dont really understand. Under your definition, a hanging, a terrorist event, gang violence, and other events which most would agree are not genocide can be termed so. I prefer to look at genocide through a definition which limits the scope of the use of the word: of systematic, intentional, destruction, of a race, ethnicity or religious group; as a collective action, with the results of death. I prefer to seperate incidents like the Holocost, the Balkans, Rwanda from slavery and Native American/white relations. That does not mean I condone them, that does not mean I don't agree they were wrong, tragic and horrible, disgraceful to the United State, and that doesnt even mean think they are less horrid than genocide. Merely that I see genocide different than you. We can sit and debate all we want, but I dont see you changing your mind anytime soon, nor do I think you have provided and argument that will make me change my mind...

Speculation, perception and possible outcomes are what policy makers have to develop their desicion. Theres no sure thing.

It doesnt matter who owns the news stations, what matters is our news and our culture is all over the world, which means that people are more aware of American actions and politics than other places...meaning our actions are magnified.

We can continue to debate Bush and Kerry but it wont go anywhere. Ive stated they have different platforms and named things they would do differently. You have stated they have the same backgrounds. You also havent stated what your alternative is to democracy here in America? This being the fourth time ive asked you to demonstrate how you will/would create change outside the process?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#84
RE: Regarding the 80% of Indians dying from disease

Once again you AVOID questions and attempt to cover up your obvious contradictions. Not only that but you've cut and pasted every wikipedia and answer.com page one would consider relevant to our debate. The obvious results are "Frankenstein" type post's that lead in circles; dump our readers in the lap of boredom and open doors which lead to various straw man arguments and fallacies.

Do we need to continue?

Here are the results of my search for the 80% figure on Indians dying of disease
What you meant to type is "here are the results of my Google search for the 80% figure on indians dying of disease...something I “thought” I was asked about time and time again.”

The problems, with these erroneously labeled “searches” are not solely the sources (nice job of using blogger haven alternet.com as a “credible” source”), but the fact that they are derived from something that may or may not have been implied. I don’t recall asking you to prove the 80% figure. If I did please post it and I will stand corrected. What I do recall typing is at the time the statement was made no validation was presented to support your claim. Why you attempted to validate your estimated figure 5-10 posts later is beyond me. However these searches do NOTHING to answer the questions posed to you, I’ll prove it.


You said:

The fact that upto 80% of Indians died from disease is disputable
My direct response to your frivolous statement was:

If it's FACT how can it be disputable?
No longer needing/wanting clarification, no longer interested in your figure of approximation and for the sake of argument, I proceeded to throw the "disputable fact" out the window:

For the sake of argument let’s just say 80% of the native population did die from disease.
With that being said why are you trying to validate your 80% claim? You should consider expounding on the following:

1.) What percentage of that 80% died due to disease being spread on purpose?

2.) What percentage of that 80% died due to systematic removal/displacement (Trail of tears for example)?

3.) If 80% of the native population died because of disease what is the percentage of those who died from war and how many people does that translate to?


These three questions have been asked of you at LEAST twice, yet you find time to clarify the 80% statement? You have time to clarify figures and site online encyclopedias but why have you not answered the questions posed to you? Do not for one second think these questions are irrelevent to our discussion. IMHO, your entire argument is simply "if they didn't do it on purpose it can't be genocide". With that being said address what was done on purpose.


More to come.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#85
HERESY you make alot of good points..my question is how can we fix these problems...if the voting system is fucked like you say then what in your opinion are some real solutions to these issues we face? in fact id like an answer from both sides of the fence on that in everyones eyes what if anything can be done to change...if we can change
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#86
Your research is nothing....

I'll begin this post by addressing your second post. You stated:

Also, can you explain when Indians were given infected blankets at Trail of Tears?
Yes.

In the research I did today I found 2 examples of alleged blanket infections, and neither involved the Trail of Tears? 1 involved Britain.
How dare you classify your continual use of google and shameless use of cut & paste as "research"? Your actions are despicable and thats putting it lightly.


I'll address the rest tommorow

EDIT:

@suspect I will answer your question as soon as I finish off madd dogg.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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suspect#1 said:
HERESY you make alot of good points..my question is how can we fix these problems...if the voting system is fucked like you say then what in your opinion are some real solutions to these issues we face? in fact id like an answer from both sides of the fence on that in everyones eyes what if anything can be done to change...if we can change
dance?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#89
Since I have to explain it to you....

MaddDogg said:

Dance? Because I told him he would get an answer after I finish answering you? He actually made his post while I was in the process of making my last post. The last post I made to you is actually LONGER, but I didn't include the rest because I didn't have time to proof read it. When I pressed send and read my post thats when I came across his post. I went back in acknowledged his post and told him when he would receive an answer.


Can I answer the rest of the b.s. you have typed or do you want me to ignore your b.s. (typical american mentality) and address his question?
 
Jul 26, 2005
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#90
warfare!!!

America taught us gang behavior, we just took too many drugs and exhatterated it..

Don't burn a flag, is like saying burn my blue rag and I break your face... If you're not from my territory-FU*K OFF.

They say it's against the law to burn an american flag? How about how they burn US with taxes? How they burn regular people and give freevees to rich muthafu*kas... I say burn another flag. That's one less oppressed human individual.

I love anarchy, because they hate me, so the next time there's a riot, I'll join and sock a rich white man in the fu*kin face. HOUND...

They want me dead, so I'll live longer and flip the bird all day every day cuzz!!!
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#92
suspect#1 said:
HERESY....are you still gonna answer my question ? thanks
@suspect I will answer your question as soon as I finish off madd dogg.
After I typed that I made another post. I asked madd dogg:

Can I answer the rest of the b.s. you have typed or do you want me to ignore your b.s. (typical american mentality) and address his question?
So the question you should be asking is if madd dogg wants me to finish addressing his statements or to address you. If he wants me to finish addressing his posts you'll have to wait. I won't go back and forth explaining myself to the both of you, quoting the both of you and devoting multiple posts to the both of you. Keep asking me questions and you might not ever get a answer.........
 
May 17, 2002
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#95
The only way that you can change the system is if you can get he money to pay for a system change. no money = no change, no freedom, no "rights"

according to how legislators say it we're not "losing rights" we're just beter defining the "parameters/perimeters" of freedom LOL. perimeters and freedom are diametrically opposed.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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Well sense this post is back...

Oh yes. The wonderful blog. What a shitty thing to have on the internet, unless of coure the bloggers are historians, professors, and credible sources. Guenter Levy teached at University of Mass. http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html Here is a link to his article at a history website. Thomas Brown is a historian and Professor of Sociology, who also cited HIS sources at the end of his article bashing the Indian Blanket “Genocide” of 1837. ]Jacqlueine Keeler is a blogger, but she is also a Native American. The point of throwing her in there was to show that even Indians use high figures involving deaths from disease.

And by the way, since your getting technical, I never stated “it’s a fact” I stated “estimates run as high as 80%” (but I guess they also run higher) and THEN I stated “The fact that 80% of Indians died from disease is disputable." You also stated "(which you have shown no proof of)" so there are some estimates. So pretty much I don’t understand what the point was of your manipulation of my words and argument including quoting other things people have said like I said them, also substituting my personal view on flag burning for what I feel is right…but anyways...

1.) What percentage of that 80% died due to disease being spread on purpose?

2.) What percentage of that 80% died due to systematic removal/displacement (Trail of tears for example)?

3.) If 80% of the native population died because of disease what is the percentage of those who died from war and how many people does that translate to?

I cant answer these...Can you answer these questions? No you cant. Can you imagine anyone in the 18th century taking down that precise of statistic? If we have only have estimates on disease figures, why would we have percentages on smaller figures? Do you think the fact that there were a number of ways of spreading the disease: sexual contact, trade, 2nd degree through other Indians, animals, displacement, travel and migration, war and hospitals, wounded soldiers, intentional (and mind you, the fact that whites aren’t immune to small pox, so any contact with the disease puts them at harm as well)…that the overwhelming majority of disease was spread unintentionally?

Is that all you wanted?
 
Apr 25, 2002
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#97
HERESY said:
Keep asking me questions and you might not ever get a answer.........
Yes.

Lets see:

"A lot of people dont like the system...but if you dont like the system, what would you prefer?...is there a viable alternative?

"Your point about the Presidential election and your point about American intervention seem to demonstrate one thing to me: it is not just America that pisses you off, but a world where the state is supreme actor...Would you agree that your problem isnt just with America, but with the current world system? And if so what world system would you prefer?"

"We can continue to debate Bush and Kerry but it wont go anywhere. Ive stated they have different platforms and named things they would do differently. You also havent stated what your alternative is to democracy here in America?"

suspect#1 said:
HERESY you make alot of good points..my question is how can we fix these problems...if the voting system is fucked like you say then what in your opinion are some real solutions to these issues we face? in fact id like an answer from both sides of the fence on that in everyones eyes what if anything can be done to change...if we can change
suspect#1 said:
HERESY....are you still gonna answer my question ? thanks
Clever to throw the subject back to me...

also:

"but the overwhelming majority of disease death was caused by contact between two groups of people...thats how Europe got the black plague...was that genocide?"

"...you have cited American intervention as events mainly in the interest of American....NAME A STATE THAT DOESN'T! ISNT THE POINT OF A STATE TO PROTECT ITS PEOPLE AND THEIR INTEREST? IS THE POINT OF A STATE TO GO SPREAD MORALITY AND GOOD DEEDS FOR ALL THE WORLD!?"

"Also, can you explain when Indians were given infected blankets at Trail of Tears?"...also if so...intentionally?

Please do respond.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#98
Hold on you didnt answer ANY of my questions. I asked if YOU wanted me to continue to address your foolishness first and THEN reply to suspect or if you wanted me to ignore YOU and answer his question (which is similar to yours).


I'm not answering all that other shit. No way I'm gonna do that, after you ignored questions for over ten posts.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#99
I do NOT find a site filled with bloggers to be a source of any substantial and rational thought. The only person that WOULD find that site credible is YOU and believe me that’s NOT saying much. I find the books written by Dr. David E. Stannard (UHM American Studies Professor, author), speeches given by Steve Melendez (member of the Paiute tribe, president of the American Indian Genocide Museum), Lindsay Glauner (author, DePaul University College of Law graduate and Michigan State University graduate), Lilian Friedberg (scholar, author), www.indiancountry.com and www.marxists.org to be more CREDIBLE and IMPARTIAL when it comes to the perplexity of the native american people and the genocide they have experienced.

CASE CLOSED.

And by the way, since your getting technical, I never stated “it’s a fact” I stated “estimates run as high as 80%” (but I guess they also run higher) and THEN I stated “The fact that 80% of Indians died from disease is disputable." You also stated "(which you have shown no proof of)" so there are some estimates..
You’re obviously Corky, and a shameless liar. On page four of this thread you stated:

disease probably killed up to 80% of the native american population, not combat.
On my first reply on page five I replied with:

the estimated 80% (which you've shown no proof of) may be attributed to displacement.
On page five your first reply contained the statements:

but the overwhelming majority of disease death was caused by contact between two groups of people
And

The fact that upto 80% of Indians died from disease is disputable
In my second reply on page five I replied to #1 with:

You have provided no evidence to support your claim that the majority of native deaths were caused by sickness. So why call it "overwhelming majority"? Disease was caused by by contact between the two groups of people? Why have you not mentioned the deaths caused by displacement?
It’s obvious that I NEVER asked you to post your evidence but I did question how you could state an “overwhelming majority” without providing sufficient information.

In my second reply on page five I replied to #2 with:

If it's FACT how can it be disputable? For the sake of arguement lets just say 80% of the native population did die from disease.
A simple question in response to your red herring yet it remained unanswered. If it is FACT how is it disputable? I did NOT reply to your #2 with “you have shown no proof”. I replied with the above. STOP MANIPULATING MY WORDS AND STICK TO THE FACTS. EITHER READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU REPLY OR DON’T REPLY AT ALL.

So why did I toss the 80% statement out the window? Not only was it for the sake of argument but it was due to your words:

I dont have time to look that up but you seem to have a lot of time on your hands to cut and paste qoutes and make the same argument over and over so you look it up.
Read that over and over……

So pretty much I don’t understand what the point was of your manipulation of my words and argument including quoting other things people have said like I said them, also substituting my personal view on flag burning for what I feel is right…but anyways...
I never manipulated your words. You had MANY chances to clarify your claims and correct them. What do you? You put on your janitorial outfit (yeah the pink looks good on you) and proceed to sweep it all under the rug for over ten posts. NOW you want to clear the air and make yourself appear to be Hogan’s Hero. I'm sorry man but it's not going to work that way. I NEVER quoted ANYONE and made it appear as if you said what they said. YOU said:

Fear is just one of several emotions flag burning can envoke
My response to that was:

So far everyone against flag burning has been against it because it appears to be disrespectful.
What did I do after that? I showed YOUR statements which did NOT manifest fear but pure hatred and a call for violence against those who burned the flag. After that I showed the statements of others to show they were NOT in fear and ALSO called for violence. What I did was provide PROOF that flag burning by Americans does not instill fear but that sociopaths such as you attempt to do it by calls of extreme violence. No manipulation on my part simply a case of showing that YOU yourself did NOT exhibit emotions that you claimed flag burning caused. CASE CLOSED.


I cant answer these...Can you answer these questions? No you cant.

Simply put if you cannot answer the questions you have no leg to stand on. You are telling the board that 80% of natives (an esitimated figure) have died because of disease; that it was NOT genocide, yet you can’t elaborate on the percentage of that 80% that DID die as a result of it being spread on purpose. Good job, Leaping Lanny. You’re incapable of showing the board how many people from your approximate figure died from disease as a result of systematic removal/displacement yet you say it wasn’t genocide. Again good job! Finally you are unable to provide figures showing how many natives DID die from war yet you’re still clinging to your 80% figure as if it’s written on a slab of stone by the finger of God. Incredible!!!!! How can you maintain your 80% figure and position that it was NOT genocide?

Can you imagine anyone in the 18th century taking down that precise of statistic?
Ask yourself that question and then ask if your 80% figure is FACT or simply a number that cannot be verified……

If we have only have estimates on disease figures, why would we have percentages on smaller figures?
Everyone reading this thread has now witnessed the decimation of the saying "no such thing as a dumb question".


Do you think the fact that there were a number of ways of spreading the disease: sexual contact, trade, 2nd degree through other Indians, animals, displacement, travel and migration, war and hospitals, wounded soldiers, intentional (and mind you, the fact that whites aren’t immune to small pox, so any contact with the disease puts them at harm as well)…that the overwhelming majority of disease was spread unintentionally?
I believe the Native americans were victims of genocide. If natives died from accidental disease; that were caused by systematic displacement (on purpose) an act of genocide has occurred. The act that was done ON PURPOSE led to the death of the natives ACCIDENT OR NOT.

In closing I would like to say that I will no longer respond to your bullshit. I constantly asked you questions to which NO answer was given. I answered your questions UNTIL you started to play games and drag this thread to oblivion's porch. I gave you ample time to clarify your statements but you seem to want to address points of arguements that were made over 10 posts ago. I left the ball in your court hoping you would ask me to address the rest of your questions. What do you do? Type utter nonsense. It’s OBVIOUS that you're no wordsmith and that’s proven by your jugglery in attempts to prove your point. My advice to you? You guessed it.....stop posting.


:HGK:
 
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If you call ultra-left wing professors, Marxists, Presidents of Genocide musuems and writers who grossly manipulated their statistics in an underlying effort to remove the Columbus holiday (Stannard) IMPARTIAL sources you are spinning the story worse than Fox News my friend.

You have sat and disected every two lines of each post I make and asked dozens of questions yet refuse to take the time to answer a handful of questions I have asked you. Your own post on my 80% figure again shows that I NEVER SAID it was a fact, and your childish name calling is an effort to draw attention away from the issue I have brought at hand which you continue to shy away from. Furthermore you have asked me to answer questions like "what percent of Indians died from disease being spread on purpose" which you know cannot be answered, even in your favor, and use them in your favor anyways. I maintain my position that there were instances of Genocide but you cant characterize the American/Indian relations taking place from 17-19th century as such due to numerous other factors...

I see it my way and you see it yours. If you cant provide answers to the basic points of your argument and need to slander my name and make it my responsibilty to answer impossible questions we become deadlocked as we are now. And will be. So I agree, lets let this post die and move on. Thanks for playing.
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