who here will vote for Ron Paul, the only honest n level headed man running?

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ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#81
I don't think it will be worse. I think it will allow a more natural cycle of supply & demand determined prices, competition, innovation, and most importantly failure when failure is prudent. After all the political stuff is stripped away...the government answer to everything, under the current system, is more government jobs. How long before the government is half (or more) of our economy? The last 30 years in particular have seen government, government spending, and most negative indicators grow exponentially.
BTW, why exactly would it be a bad thing for the government to provide half of the jobs?

In fact, have you ever asked yourself what the purpose of having a job is and how the current system came to be?

People need jobs so that they can feed themselves. People in centuries past used to feed themselves by living off the land. Which wasn't a very pleasant existence under a feudal system but they didn't have a job as we understand it today and the concept was unknown. Then as populations grew, the industrial revolution unfolded and land holdings became consolidated to be worked on a large scale, people were driven off from the land to the cities and to the factories where they were given miserable wages with which they were to buy food to feed themselves. And if they were fired or unable to work for some reason, they were left with no means to feed themselves. Which wasn't at all better for them than the feudal system of agricultural labor because back then while it was hard labor they were putting in, it was not 14 hours a day in a mine or a factory with horrible working conditions, 6 or even 7 days a week, all year long. Getting from that state of things to the current situation where people work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, have vacations, health insurance, can retire with a pensions, etc., took a very long process of people fighting for better conditions and employers and governments making small concessions, one by one.

However, all of those developments didn't change the fundamental point, which is that people need jobs to feed themselves. But do you really need jobs to do that and are jobs the best way to do so? No, if the goal is for people to be fed, housed and clothed, then the most efficient way to do so is to feed, house, and clothe people without going through the complicated process of giving them jobs, having to grow the economy to generate jobs for an ever expanding population, etc. Which can be done with a fraction of the energy, material and labor inputs that go into the economy today. In fact, what we have now is pretty much the most wasteful way one can imagine of accomplishing that goal and it is not even accomplished for disturbingly large numbers of people, even in supposedly prosperous places. But for people to understand that would require a giant leap forward in their rational thinking abilities and ecological awareness and an unprecedented shift in their worldviews, not really likely to happen anytime soon if ever
 

WXS STOMP3R

SENIOR GANG MEMBER
Feb 27, 2006
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#85
All i know is my wealth has increased dramatically over the last 10 years while the majority of the population's has declined. Ron Paul may be right on a lot of policy, but i'll keep riding the Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama train til that mother fucker burns and I am right there in the soup line too.
YOUR EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO GOT THIS COUNTRY INTO THE MESS IT GOT ITSELF INTO.
 

:ab:

blunt_hogg559
Jul 6, 2005
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#86
if Ron Paul were in charge we definitely would have seen osama after he got blasted. i'll give Ron Paul that much.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#91
Libertarianism is absolutely incompatible with sustainability - it embraces precisely the same cognitive and behavioral flaws of the human species that have gotten us into this mess to begin with and makes them a virtue.
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#92
Libertarianism is absolutely incompatible with sustainability - it embraces precisely the same cognitive and behavioral flaws of the human species that have gotten us into this mess to begin with and makes them a virtue.


That's quite the tangent to my point. I never said libertarianism with the solution to our problems.

Although I do hope we embrace some of the ideals of libertarianism in any solutions. The government doesn't need run my life or anyone else's to maintain a sustainable society (and it already does a pretty shitty job at it as it is).
 
Mar 8, 2006
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www.thephylumonline.com
#93
Libertarianism is absolutely incompatible with sustainability - it embraces precisely the same cognitive and behavioral flaws of the human species that have gotten us into this mess to begin with and makes them a virtue.
It makes those cognitive behavioral flaws a choice, instead of a mandate/sole mechanism of economic growth/measurement. It certainly doesn't promote government bloat, which is massively unsustainable, not only financially, but also in terms of resource management/preservation.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#94
It makes those cognitive behavioral flaws a choice, instead of a mandate/sole mechanism of economic growth/measurement. It certainly doesn't promote government bloat, which is massively unsustainable, not only financially, but also in terms of resource management/preservation.
1. The state is not the one consuming resources and wrecking the environment, people are. In fact, the state does not exist as some abstract entity that exist independent of the rest of society even though most people tend to see it this way, i.e. in an us-vs-the-state frame. But that's not the case - the state consists of the people in the administration, the people who work in governmental agencies, the people who work in the police, the military, etc. Those people are "the state", they are not particularly different from the rest of the population, they come from it after all, and whatever moronic things the state does are done in fact by those people.

2. It is a sign of utter lack of understanding of what sustainability means to say "government spending is unsustainable". Well, it may or not be economically unsustainable but this is completely irrelevant. The financial economy is something that does not actually exist - numbers that are assigned value by convention get moved around, and they are not even printed on paper any more. What is financially sustainable is entirely a social problem and can be very easily solved - in principle all debts could be cancelled and we start anew; not happening of course, because the people who these money are owed will not agree because they don't have enough common sense to understand the necessity of doing so, but this is something that is in principle doable. However, the real meaning of sustainability is biophysical and there there are no solutions even in principle other than voluntary contraction of involuntary collapse. Governmental spending has very little relevance to that problem while private activity is a major contributor to the unsustainability of the system.

3. Libertarians believe that if you let people do whatever the fuck they want (even within the constraint that they don't cause obvious harm to others) this will lead to optimal outcome for everyone. Which is bollocks. And it is bollocks because implicit in it is the assumption that people can foresee the unintended consequences of their actions and that they will account for the associated negative externalities. The best minds the human species has produced have very hard time foreseeing unintended consequence, how exactly is the average person who has little more intelligence than a slime mold expected to do so, especially when his selfish interest dictates that he doesn't pay attention to it? There is one absolutely necessary condition for being a libertarian and it is complete lack of any ecological literacy whatsoever. I have yet to see one that does not meet it.
 
Mar 8, 2006
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#95
1. The state is not the one consuming resources and wrecking the environment, people are. In fact, the state does not exist as some abstract entity that exist independent of the rest of society even though most people tend to see it this way, i.e. in an us-vs-the-state frame. But that's not the case - the state consists of the people in the administration, the people who work in governmental agencies, the people who work in the police, the military, etc. Those people are "the state", they are not particularly different from the rest of the population, they come from it after all, and whatever moronic things the state does are done in fact by those people.

It's a "top-down" economic system which depends on spending and consumption for growth...almost half of the economy depends on government spending. The system is built on mass consumption. I can only think of one way to curb consumption, and that is to make the economy less dependent on mass consumption. Due to the croneyism in Washington and at the state level, the same companies who provide predatory credit and overleverage that debt through complex financial products and mechanisms actually profit from the welfare state. They make money whether we can pay our bills or not. Walmart and JPMorgan actually lobby the government to put more people on food stamps.

2. It is a sign of utter lack of understanding of what sustainability means to say "government spending is unsustainable". Well, it may or not be economically unsustainable but this is completely irrelevant. The financial economy is something that does not actually exist - numbers that are assigned value by convention get moved around, and they are not even printed on paper any more. What is financially sustainable is entirely a social problem and can be very easily solved - in principle all debts could be cancelled and we start anew; not happening of course, because the people who these money are owed will not agree because they don't have enough common sense to understand the necessity of doing so, but this is something that is in principle doable. However, the real meaning of sustainability is biophysical and there there are no solutions even in principle other than voluntary contraction of involuntary collapse. Governmental spending has very little relevance to that problem while private activity is a major contributor to the unsustainability of the system.

Dude. What?

Sustainability is the capacity to endure. For humans, sustainability is the long-term maintenance of well being, which has environmental, economic, and social dimensions, and encompasses the concept of stewardship, the responsible management of resource use. In ecology, sustainability describes how biological systems remain diverse and productive over time, a necessary precondition for human well-being.

The government has their tentacles around every aspect of the private sector.


3. Libertarians believe that if you let people do whatever the fuck they want (even within the constraint that they don't cause obvious harm to others) this will lead to optimal outcome for everyone. Which is bollocks. And it is bollocks because implicit in it is the assumption that people can foresee the unintended consequences of their actions and that they will account for the associated negative externalities. The best minds the human species has produced have very hard time foreseeing unintended consequence, how exactly is the average person who has little more intelligence than a slime mold expected to do so, especially when his selfish interest dictates that he doesn't pay attention to it? There is one absolutely necessary condition for being a libertarian and it is complete lack of any ecological literacy whatsoever. I have yet to see one that does not meet it.

How does this NOT describe, to a T, the current method of government? They are SHITTY at risk assessment. See: United States 2011.

Also, your statements regarding Libertarians lacking ecological literacy is a complete farce, as I am a Libertarian and am in the process of moving to what I hope will eventually be an 80% PermaCulture and off-grid lifestyle. I would put my parents and 2 of my 3 siblings in this same category as well.
.................
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#97
Also, your statements regarding Libertarians lacking ecological literacy is a complete farce, as I am a Libertarian and am in the process of moving to what I hope will eventually be an 80% PermaCulture and off-grid lifestyle. I would put my parents and 2 of my 3 siblings in this same category as well.
Just because you have moved to an off-grid lifestyle does not mean you are ecologically literate. There is some correlation between the two things but it is very weak, in fact most people who practice PermaCulture and live off-grid are not not ecologically literate. Based on your answers, you aren't either and just prove my point once again
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#98
2. It is a sign of utter lack of understanding of what sustainability means to say "government spending is unsustainable". Well, it may or not be economically unsustainable but this is completely irrelevant.
So what you are saying is

1) It is a sign of utter lack of understanding of what sustainability means to say "government spending is unsustainable".
2) Well maybe it is unsustainable
3) Never mind that is irrelevant because it doesn't fit ThaG's context of sustainable

The financial economy is something that does not actually exist - numbers that are assigned value by convention get moved around, and they are not even printed on paper any more.
The financial economy still represents actual resources so saying government spending is irrelevant to sustainability is loco because the amount of government spending correlates to the amount of resources it consumes, and we have a finite amount of resources.

To be fair, it's not just government spending, but government policies that assume infinite economic growth which are unsustainable.

What is financially sustainable is entirely a social problem and can be very easily solved - in principle all debts could be cancelled and we start anew; not happening of course, because the people who these money are owed will not agree because they don't have enough common sense to understand the necessity of doing so, but this is something that is in principle doable.
How would canceling all debts solve the problem if we continued using an economic model that assumes infinite growth? We would delay the problem, but find ourselves right back in this situation some time in the future. That hardly seems like a solution.

However, the real meaning of sustainability is biophysical and there there are no solutions even in principle other than voluntary contraction of involuntary collapse. Governmental spending has very little relevance to that problem while private activity is a major contributor to the unsustainability of the system.
US Government spending as a percent of GDP last year was 40%....and growing :confused: