The Passion Is The Best Movie I have Ever Seen

[2-0-Sixx]

Here's a link, I know you said atheist believe that there was a man named Jesus but here is something that may be considered proof.

I definitely wouldn’t consider that link to be “proof” of Jesus’ existence. Even if scientists announced the writings to be authentic and from the correct time period, it still wouldn’t be solid proof. It definitely would make the claim much stronger, but like the article mentioned, the bones of course are still missing.

I don’t think we really should get into this topic…maybe on a new thread. For sake of argument, lets just say Jesus did exist.

If we are taking about the Biblical God then it must be agreed he is all powerful, all knowledgable and omnipresent.
Because he is these things he can bend and distort logic. Logic can be distorted by a being that is ALL powerful. Thus your logic is faulty. It would be faulty and illogical to claim something is all powerful if he cannot bend logic. Thus your claim can be thrown out or simple rewritten…. You also have to remember that he is all powerful. He can do ANYTHING he wants. If that is change the illogical into the logical then he can since it is within his grasps. Thus our logic would not be enough to completely understand this.

So you define All-powerful as beyond logic. A nice retreat.

There is a problem with claiming god as both logical and illogical…something I will get into more detail on a later post.

So far, this is how the Christian mentality is:
· How do you know God is all powerful?
· The Bible tells me so.
· How do you know the Bible is right?
· God inspired it
· How do you know God inspired it?
· The Bible tells me so.
· How do you know the Bible is right?
· God inspired it
· How do you know God inspired it?
· The Bible tells me so.
· Etc
This will continue on and on and on. There is no logic in this approach, which explains why you state “god can do the illogical”.

Let me put it this way, if God knows I’m going to watch ‘American Psycho’ in one hour, I must watch ‘American Psycho’. It may seem like I have a choice of watching ‘American Psycho’ or watching ‘The Simpsons’, but in fact I will be doing what God knows I will do no matter what.

It may seem as if we have free will, but it’s more of an illusion because we must choose what the omniscient God knows we will choose. Remember, he “created” us and we can only choose the actions that he knew we would choose from the start.

Think of it this way. Imagine if by some magical chance, you were able to create a magical universe inside of a glass jar. Before you created this universe, you decide what outcomes will occur for the life inside of the jar. Once you create this life, remember, you know every outcome. To blame any of this life for their “actions” wouldn’t make sense because you knew every outcome before you created it. ----I hope that made sense

Another fun question for the “illogical-all-powerful” god is, “can he can create a square triangle?”

An additional question I would like to ask is whether God exists outside of time or exists as part of time?

Maybe he is a 'sick being' because he would rather love than hate. That's up to you. I personaly think it is better to love than to hate. But being human I dont think that is always possible. He is not human though and it is possible for him.

This might be a good argument except for the fact that God obviously “chose” not to be loving, according to the bible. There are tons of examples of how God killed or unleashed his “wrath” in the “Good book” which kills your argument that god would rather love then hate.

When did I say he was all loving? God can forgive and he can love, these are true. But those that get out of line WILL be dealt with.

You never specifically stated that god was all loving that’s why I asked the question, “So God is all-loving now?”. I have heard many Christians describe god as all loving and I wanted to know if you shared this belief.

“Well since there is no right or wrong for you (morally speaking), then you are right; there is no evil. But I will use a more contemporary view of evil.
Evil: Morally bad or wrong. (Thats from Dictionary.com)
Now, you said that there is no evil, just actions. But you do believe in morals, at least your own personal morals. Well I'm only assuming, of course, but I believe you have a concept, even if its your own concept, of 'bad' and 'good.' Or of things you should do which are morally acceptable, or those which are not. Now evil would be something like murder. I bet you dont find that 'morally acceptible.' Neither does God. The first Murder was not by God, it was by Man.”

I will accept this.

I see your point although I dont agree. Realistically speaking if I were an atheist I would agree that God was to blame. Im not and I have tried my best to explain why that is.

Well, refer to my “Creation in a jar” comment.

My bad. It was late and I wrote this before I went to Bed. But to answer your question, look at Droopys sig. He states the Universe Just is. Then Science tells us that Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so logically it has always been which is illogical because EVERYTHING MUST have a beginning or an end (at least in terms of time). Yet its hard for you to believe that God exists and is also eternal.

This is not necessarily true…many people believe that there is no beginning and no end. If matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, the universe has always existed. If the universe has always existed, then there was no creation of the universe. If there was no creation of the universe, there is no creator of the universe.



That’s all the time I have for now. Part II will come soon. Peace

 

[MEXCOM]

I apologize if my answers seem half-assed at best, i am terribly tired.

I definitely wouldn’t consider that link to be “proof” of Jesus’ existence. Even if scientists announced the writings to be authentic and from the correct time period, it still wouldn’t be solid proof. It definitely would make the claim much stronger, but like the article mentioned, the bones of course are still missing.

Well I did you could take it as proof. I mean how many people do you know where named Yeshua (Jesus to others) and had a brother by that same name with the father being Joseph? Not many.

I don’t think we really should get into this topic…maybe on a new thread. For sake of argument, lets just say Jesus did exist.

Agreed.

So you define All-powerful as beyond logic. A nice retreat.

Retreat? Not really. If you are all powerful you can do ANYTHING, logic would then have no meaning. It would be illogical not to believe this.

There is a problem with claiming god as both logical and illogical…something I will get into more detail on a later post.

Well the problem would not be him being logical and illogical. The problem is believing he is omnipotent and not believing he can follow logic or make this own.

So far, this is how the Christian mentality is:
· How do you know God is all powerful?
· The Bible tells me so.
· How do you know the Bible is right?
· God inspired it
· How do you know God inspired it?
· The Bible tells me so.
· How do you know the Bible is right?
· God inspired it
· How do you know God inspired it?
· The Bible tells me so.
· Etc
This will continue on and on and on. There is no logic in this approach, which explains why you state “god can do the illogical”.

Well let's look at it like this. You are claiming there is no God. Right now we are talking about the Hebrew/Christian God. I believe he is all powerful. If he is all powerful his power can encompass all that is logical or illogical, that is the meaning of omnipotent, thinking otherwise is idiocy.

Let me put it this way, if God knows I’m going to watch ‘American Psycho’ in one hour, I must watch ‘American Psycho’. It may seem like I have a choice of watching ‘American Psycho’ or watching ‘The Simpsons’, but in fact I will be doing what God knows I will do no matter what.

He may know you will do it but that doesnt mean it wasnt your choice. Regardless of whether or not there is a God, you would watch American Phsycho in an hour. God has nothing to do with it because you will ultimately decide. So if there is not God and you are forced to do this because you will ultimately decide that watching this movie is what you want to do does this still mean you have no 'free will?"

It may seem as if we have free will, but it’s more of an illusion because we must choose what the omniscient God knows we will choose. Remember, he “created” us and we can only choose the actions that he knew we would choose from the start.

this again falls under what i said above. Think about this situation.
1) I have a time machine.
2) I see you will watch the simpsons at 8pm on friday.
3) you watch the simpsons at 8pm on Friday.
4) I go back in time to thursday.
5) I know you will watch the simpsons on friday at 8pm.
6) You watch the simpsons come friday.
Now the question is this: Since I knew what you were going to watch does this mean you never really had a choice? It was just an illusion? Is your next act an illusion because no matter what happens you will do what certain act?
Now you may something like, "God created us, he knew what we would do!" Well like I said what if I went back in time and knew everything you would do, does that make your life an illusion? Since I knew every single action you would take? No. It would only be considered that you have no free will if I acted directly and made you do everything. God never makes us do anything, just because he knows what you will do does not mean he makes you do any of it.

Think of it this way. Imagine if by some magical chance, you were able to create a magical universe inside of a glass jar. Before you created this universe, you decide what outcomes will occur for the life inside of the jar. Once you create this life, remember, you know every outcome. To blame any of this life for their “actions” wouldn’t make sense because you knew every outcome before you created it. ----I hope that made sense

Yes that would be true IF I decided their outcomes. God has never decided any of your or my actions. Just because he knows does not mean he directly interferes with our lives to the point where we have no say in anything we do.

Another fun question for the “illogical-all-powerful” god is, “can he can create a square triangle?”

Not being God I would not know. But seeing as omnipotent is all powerful, I would say yes. But being omnipotent, I doubt God has to prove anything to us.

An additional question I would like to ask is whether God exists outside of time or exists as part of time?

isnt there a theory out there that says 'time' doesnt really exist and that its just a change in perception?

This might be a good argument except for the fact that God obviously “chose” not to be loving, according to the bible. There are tons of examples of how God killed or unleashed his “wrath” in the “Good book” which kills your argument that god would rather love then hate.

Like I explained before: God loves, but there are those without salvation (those that do not listen to him) they paid for what they did, as we will all pay one day.

You never specifically stated that god was all loving that’s why I asked the question, “So God is all-loving now?”. I have heard many Christians describe god as all loving and I wanted to know if you shared this belief.

No. I do believe he prefers Love and cannot hate (hate being used in an evil sense). But that does not mean he cant hate the corruption he see's. obviously the actions of man have pissed him off more than once.

“Well since there is no right or wrong for you (morally speaking), then you are right; there is no evil. But I will use a more contemporary view of evil.
Evil: Morally bad or wrong. (Thats from Dictionary.com)
Now, you said that there is no evil, just actions. But you do believe in morals, at least your own personal morals. Well I'm only assuming, of course, but I believe you have a concept, even if its your own concept, of 'bad' and 'good.' Or of things you should do which are morally acceptable, or those which are not. Now evil would be something like murder. I bet you dont find that 'morally acceptible.' Neither does God. The first Murder was not by God, it was by Man.”

I will accept this.

then i will move on.

Well, refer to my “Creation in a jar” comment.

I replied to that.

This is not necessarily true…many people believe that there is no beginning and no end. If matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, the universe has always existed. If the universe has always existed, then there was no creation of the universe. If there was no creation of the universe, there is no creator of the universe.

You yourself refered to God in terms of time. Now time must have a beginning. Must time have been a beginning point? Beyond that beginning point was there nothing? If yes how do you know? If no, the same question applies, how do you know?

That’s all the time I have for now. Part II will come soon. Peace

I'll wait, you're responces are well thought out.