Is Religion the Source of Morality?

Vyasadeva · Jan 12, 2003

Damn mayn, I cannot compete word for word with your rhetoric. It's real funny though that you try to come off as some theological scholar, when you misspell damn near every other word you write.

And you telling me that I'm a "youngster" is real amusing, I'm a 26 year old grown ass man little fella, and judging from the formulation of your theistic position I can tell you are either a teenage cat or have no more than a 9th grade education.

This perfectly captures the nonsensical philosophy you have conditioned into your head. Pull your head out your dumb ass and you just might learn something son.

You display super-ignorance by disrespecting a sacred spiritual literature (do you see me calling the Bible "bullshit"?), and futhermore you are of the pea-brained mentality that one must ONLY read the Bible. Since the Vedas are not the Bible they are "bullshit". Yeah fuckin right, only a retarded forrest gump intellect havin moron would say some shit like that.

You don't say that type of dumb shit because it is the truth, you say it because you WANT it to be true and you say it because you fear being wrong. Your fear of finding out that a different philosophy might know God causes you to make unfounded and patently idiotic claims, such as "If you supposedly believe in the bible, why do you believe in these bullshit Vedas?"

I've dealt with more than my share of Bible thumping ignoramuses like yourself, and discussing spirituality with you simpletons is like the metaphor of the pig in shit. Pigs eat shit and live in shit. And if a person tries to improve the condition of the pig by pulling him up out of his shit infested environment, the pig will not budge. The pig runs back to the shithole because the pig is happy eating shit and sleeping in shit. You, my friend, are the pig that is eating shit and living in shit. Therefore since you are convinced that the shit you are eating is good and is the thing worth eating, there is no chance of you removing yourself from that shit.

And the Bible is not the "shit" that I am talking about. The "shit" I am talking about is the faulty and illogical philosophy surrounding the Bible that you have formulated in your neanderthal level brain.

There is a saying that one should not throw pearls to the swine.

Your piggish mentality is the only impediment to you seeing the truth value of other scripture, and when one has such a strong will to continue to eat shit, there is no use in a person who possesses pearls to bother giving them to the pig.

I never said any such thing you non reading muthafucka. Krsna is ETERNALLY the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I never said anything about Him "retiring". You have NO IDEA about the intricacies involved or the purposes of His various incarnations, so do not make yourself look like such a fool by speculating on shit you don't know about.

I already know my soul is eternal. God is eternal and since my soul is a fragmental part and parcel of Him, I am also eternal. My body is temporary, therefore it is an illusion. The soul is the reality.

Damn mayn you are fuckin killin me. Sound WAVES and Sound VIBRATIONS are exactly the same fuckin thing!

Yeah dumb ass, *WE* need air to speak. Do you think that God NEEDS air to speak? Why would you assume that God *needs* anything at all? Since God is full and complete within Himself, He does not NEED anything in order to DO anything. All is carried out by His WILL alone.

How do you know God has no vocal chords? Dog you really ARE just making this shit up as you go aren't you?

Your ignorance is mesmerizing. Obviously you have never read the Vedas, or you would know that there are 4 regulative principles that one needs to follow in order to progress in spiritual life.

1 - No meat eating
2 - No illicit sex (sex for pleasure)
3 - No gambling
4 - No intoxication (drugs/alcohol)

Now ask yourself dummy, which of these principles do you violate every day? I would bet at least 3 of them. So once again your claim that all other religions compared to the Bible as being "very free" is seen to be more misinformation from the well of ignorance you seem to be tapped into.

Yes, Jesus said that, and it is true. But what you have painfully shown is that you have ZERO understanding of the difference between the spiritual being that Christ eternally *IS*, and the temporary material body of flesh that was named Jesus.

Christ was not placing emphasis on his material body, but since you don't have any spiritual understanding, you interpret that quote from Jesus as a demand to believe in his flesh body, rather than the glorious affirmation of the divine spirit soul residing in each of us which is eternally light, and truth.

You don't even know what my beliefs are fool! Hahahhaa man all you know is that you can't pigeonhole me, and since you have no idea about the transcendental knowledge described in the Vedas, all you can do is make yourself look like a lil whiny ass girl and claim that they are "myth" and "bullshit".

You are just like that Jehova's Witness bitch that came to my door a few weeks ago. Yall both got your mind made up, and instead of being receptive to differing viewpoints, all you want to do is force the Bible down everyone's throats. I already have a Bible, and I comprehend it perfectly well. There is "milk" and "meat" in the Bible, and the bullshit you have been posting is all nonsense which leads me to believe that you can't even grasp the simple "milk" teachings.

Since all your posts are just repetitious rhetoric about me needing to ONLY believe the Bible, and ONLY believe in Jesus, I guess I'm bout done with this exchange with you. When you ready to talk about some real spiritual shit and transcendental knowledge, gimme a holla.

And n9neWUNsixx5150, it is good to see that there are cats with truly open minds here, unlike this kid who claims to be so openminded, yet his words display a mentality of the exact opposite. You explained perfectly the way a person can believe in two things and not have them contradict each other.

It is only the subjective personal opinion of weak minded cats like miggidy, who try to make God into a mutually exclusive thing. They say He is ONLY found in the Bible and Jesus, and that everything else CANNOT be real knowledge of God. Sincere souls can easily understand that since God is unlimited, He cannot be limited to any one book or dogma. A person who tries to pop that ole "ONLY the Bible" shit is obviously an unenlightened individual who simply WANTS it to be "only the Bible".

Peace.

MurdaousTHUG · Jan 12, 2003

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaa

n9newunsixx5150 · Jan 12, 2003

@miggidy

This isn't an argument. It never really was. It should be obvious that V adheres to the bible as well as the vedas. I think its great that people have found proof to back up biblical events. Considering the popularity of the bible, it makes sense that we have found bits of evidence to back it up. Not as many people have been searching for evidence to back up the Vedas. Only because they are not as widely known as the Bible. You have to understand, the nature of people is to believe first and then look for facts to back up their beliefs. This is always the way it works. And since the majority of people adhere exclusively to the bible, they will find facts for it. V was never trying to put down Christianity. He doesn't doubt that it has facts to back it up. But, he is seemingly questioning your beliefs, only because you had been questioning his. You have no (physical) "credibility" of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Just as V has no (physical) "credibility" of the divinity of Krsna. We only have faith, which in my opinion is much more solid than physical facts, knowing the true nature of the physical world. Also, you have facts backing up events in the bible, but how do you know the bible isn't written on some fact and some myth? Does logic persuade you to believe that if some things appear to be actual happenings from the bible that all of the bible must be true?? Don't get either of us wrong. We're only using the logic you used against the Vedas, against the Bible to show you how petty and "material" your thought process is. We believe in the bible. But, more importantly, WE BELIEVE IN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST. Now that that has been made CLEAR, we can be on our way. We (V and I) are always open to hearing other's ideas and perceptions, as long as they are not exclusive. If you decide to approach these topics with the mentality of further discovery you may be satisfied with your findings. But just as V said, if a pig is comfortable in shit why try to move it? In the end it will be you who decides to open your mind to knew ideas.....................................WUN

THA WILD · Jan 12, 2003

Vyasadeva said:

^^^ Do you actually believe that bullshit ass nonsense? That was one of the most elementary and unintelligent arguments for atheistic morality I have ever read.

It *is* possible to behave morally without having religion, but for an atheist to claim that there is an objective moral standard all humankind should abide by is completely illogical and contradictory. What argument can the atheist provide as to why I should not kill them? If there is no outside authority then what reason can they give me to not carry out any desire which I may have?

According to the atheist philosophy, if I kill a person I am unaccountable to anything other than the immediate retribution given to me by members of society. For them there is no such thing as sin, or karma, or sovereign authority. As such, the atheist argument for the evil of killing falls apart because without an objective absolute moral standard to refer to, the atheist has no platform on which to condemn my actions other than personal & subjective criteria, which is inadequate and selfishly derived.

How can the atheist reconcile the fact that they view things as "right" and "wrong", two polar opposites, while simultaneously claiming that there does not exist an Absolute transcendental standard? On one side is "wrong", on the other side is "right". So where is this line drawn? Do we each get to draw it for ourselves? If I decide it is "right" to kill babies, then how can the atheist say that I am "wrong", unless he accepts the existence of an objective standard to which the both of us can refer to?

That's true, what Sicx posted is what I come to except from commies. Commies are all atheists, because that bullshit document, tha Communist Manifesto (their "Bible"), insinuates that "religion is opium". Instead that shit tome tells its sheep followers to worship Communist leaders like if they were God.

2-0-Sixx · Jan 13, 2003

All comunist are atheist huh? You sure about that? Karl Marx did say "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people." But that does not mean ALL comunist are atheist.

Oh really? That shit tome tells? lol

n9newunsixx5150 · Jan 13, 2003

Quote:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

What blind words...

What heartless world do you conceive of? Only the atheists live in this heartless world. Fortunately for you (and everyone else), atheists do not determine the standard for existence. Just as you believe the world is heartless, so shall it be to your perception. To everyone else, (those who have faith), know better and LIVE better. It really is bottom-lined with "optimism" versus "pessimism". What do YOU think is healthier? If you realized the power of belief you would not be so quick to judge religion. How will you ever realize this power if you already decided to close your mind from it?

Snubnoze · Jan 13, 2003

as far as morality, it comes from the individual, not the religion dictated towards him. You got people in the church commiting sins, and you got people outside the church commiting immoral acts. Religion isn't what makes the person moral, its the individual himself...

HERESY · Jan 13, 2003

WHAT YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE HELD AGAINST YOU.

100% ACCURATE.

SOMEONE MADE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT.

THIS IS *NOT* TRUE. I BELIEVE IN THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST. I AM *NOT* A CHRISTIAN.

FIRST OF ALL DO ANY OF YOU KNOW THE *ORIGINS* OF THE *WORD* CHRISTIANITY OR CHRIST? WHAT IT MEANS? WHO IT WAS USED FOR ETC ETC ETC?

SOMEONE SAID THIS:

THE BIBLE TELLS YOU TO **QUESTION** EVERYTHING. EVERY DOCTRINE EVERY VOICE EVERY SPIRIT EVERY MAN ETC ETC ETC.

YESHUA HA MASHIACH SAID ONE GOSPEL. HE STATED THAT ANY OTHER GOSPEL IS NOT OF YHWH.

ONE GOD
ONE BAPTISM
ONE FAITH
ONE GOSPEL

WHO IS HE?

THIS IS YOUR ANSWER?

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YESHUA IS THE CHRIST, THE MASHIACH.......HOW COME YOUR VIEWS *DONT* STOP WITH HIM? DIDNT HE SAY THAT HE *ALONE* IS THE WAY TO GET TO YHWH?

WHICH ONE IS ALL POWERFUL.......

YESHUA OR KRSNA? WHO IS THE SUPREME PART OF THE GOD HEAD?

1.WHY IS IT THAT NO ONE ARGUED AGAINST MIGGS HISTORICAL EVIDENCE?

2.WHERE IS THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS HINDUISM? YOU HAVE PROOF OF A KING DAVID,SOLOMON,ETC ETC ETC.......

3.IF SOMEONE ADHERES TO THE BIBLE HOW CAN THEY *TRUELY* ADHERE TO SOMETHING ELSE? DOESNT THE BIBLE SAY THAT YOU ARE EITHER HOT OR COLD?

4.WHY IS CHRISTIANITY THE *ONLY* RELIGION/FAITH THAT CATCHES HEAT ON THIS SITE? I HAVE WITNESSED SO MANY PEOPLE BASH IT RIDICULE IT ETC ETC ETC. YET NO ONE MAKES THREADS DIRECTED AT ISLAM, SATANISM, MORMONISM ETC ETC ETC......

5.FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONSTANTLY POSTING IN THIS THREAD WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE HAVE YOU READ AND HAVE YOU READ IT FROM START TO FINISH?

6.HAS ANYONE STUDIED ESCHATOLOGY?

7. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW THE WORD/NAME FOR PEOPLE WHO TAKE BITS AND PIECES FROM ONE RELIGION OR DOCTRINE AND MESH IT WITH ANOTHER?

:h:

PS IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU SAID FEEL FREE TO REPLY. I DIDNT SAY *WHO* SAID IT BECAUSE I WAS UNABLE TO CATCH THE NAMES.

Snubnoze · Jan 13, 2003

Heresy, what you think bout mormons? Arn't they christianity based? The way you listed it you make it apear to be something seperate...

n9newunsixx5150 · Jan 13, 2003

@Heresy

quote:
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YESHUA IS THE CHRIST, THE MASHIACH.......HOW COME YOUR VIEWS *DONT* STOP WITH HIM? DIDNT HE SAY THAT HE *ALONE* IS THE WAY TO GET TO YHWH?

Do you dwell in the physical or can you perceive this spiritually?
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quote:
WHICH ONE IS ALL POWERFUL.......

The one. There is only one. Whether you recognize it as Christ or Krsna.
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quote:
YESHUA OR KRSNA? WHO IS THE SUPREME PART OF THE GOD HEAD?

what's in a name?
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quote:
1.WHY IS IT THAT NO ONE ARGUED AGAINST MIGGS HISTORICAL EVIDENCE?

No one is disagreeing with him!!!!!
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quote:
3.IF SOMEONE ADHERES TO THE BIBLE HOW CAN THEY *TRUELY* ADHERE TO SOMETHING ELSE? DOESNT THE BIBLE SAY THAT YOU ARE EITHER HOT OR COLD?

"Either hot or cold" doesn't mean the bible is "hot" and everything else is "cold" (or vice cersa)....
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quote:
4.WHY IS CHRISTIANITY THE *ONLY* RELIGION/FAITH THAT CATCHES HEAT ON THIS SITE? I HAVE WITNESSED SO MANY PEOPLE BASH IT RIDICULE IT ETC ETC ETC. YET NO ONE MAKES THREADS DIRECTED AT ISLAM, SATANISM, MORMONISM ETC ETC ETC......

I would say mainly because of its massively interpreted exclusiveness.
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quote:
5.FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONSTANTLY POSTING IN THIS THREAD WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE HAVE YOU READ AND HAVE YOU READ IT FROM START TO FINISH?

When I can get time I am going to study the bible as much as I can. I feel it deserves more attention than I can give it at this moment. I do read a little each day. Also, this thread isn’t specifically about Christianity or the Bible. And who is to say that the Bible is complete? Not you, of course or anyone at that matter…
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quote:
6.HAS ANYONE STUDIED ESCHATOLOGY?

Not yet. Tell me a little about it.
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quote:
7. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW THE WORD/NAME FOR PEOPLE WHO TAKE BITS AND PIECES FROM ONE RELIGION OR DOCTRINE AND MESH IT WITH ANOTHER?

Heresy? (J/K)
Next you will suggest that we are taking the bible out of context. The bible, like any spiritual doctrine, was meant to be learned from. If I can't read a story from the bible, "take it out of context" and apply it to my life and reality, what good are the teachings? If they are not meant to be taken out of context at all, then they do not apply to me simply because I was not written about, personally............

Vyasadeva · Jan 14, 2003

Of course one should always question things and then question them some more. But ultimately there exists a transcendental Absolute Truth within which all questions and answers reside. That Absolute Truth is God.

If there does not ultimately exist an answer for every question, one simply enters into illogical infinite regression, where one doubts and rejects everything until he doubts his own existence, and spirals downward into dementia like Nietzche, eventually talking to horses and going insane from not knowing any more what is real and what is imagined.

But one must understand the difference between relative truths and the absolute truth.

Gospel means something, such as an idea or principle, accepted as unquestionably true. God is that which is unquestionably true, and if I speak of Him in a truthful manner, I am speaking the Gospel, even if it is not a verse from the Bible. The verses in the Bible are Gospel, as are those in the Vedas. Unless one can see the all-pervading feature of the Supreme Lord, his knowledge of Him will remain limited and constricted.

YHWH is one name of God. God is limitless, therefore He has unlimited names. The teachings which describe YHWH correspond to a particular time and circumstance in human history. KRSNA as described in the Vedas refers to the eternal Personality of Godhead. Although they are different names, the Supreme Lord has invested in His millions of names the same spiritual potency as Himself. When one utters a name of the Lord whether he is saying YHWH or KRSNA he is vibrating a spiritual sound and reaps the benefits of it.

You and I might call God by different names, but He is the ONE same God, it is our recognition of His existence and our actions in line with His will is which is ultimately important.

He is the Logos, the Son of God, the eternally liberated saviour of fallen souls. He is a pure devotee of the Supreme Lord, as evidenced by his activities which were not motivated by personal sense gratification or material gain, but by acting in such a way as to deliver the conditioned souls. His every word, thought and action were in accordance with the will of the Supreme Lord, and this is evidence of his purity and perfection.

Krsna says in the Bhagavad-Gita Ch. 12 Text 18:

"One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equiposed in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contamination, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn't care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and engaged in devotional service, is very dear to Me."

That sounds alot like Jesus to me, especially when he was on the cross and even at that time he prayed for his enemies "for they know not what they do".

Jesus is guru (spiritual master).

My answer to what? This cat's posts are like preaching to the choir mayn. I do not need to have "facts" of the Bible shoved down my throat because I already believe in it's authenticity. I do not need to be lectured to on the divinity of Christ because I already know he is the Son of God.

However, as most "Christians" do, this cat thinks that one who dares to read a different book and believes in a God different than what they know as YHWH, needs to be "corrected" and told *ONLY* to believe exactly what they do. Jesus taught unity not exclusivity, and I understand Jesus better than the majority of so-called "Christians" do.

I'm tryin to get this cat to open his mind, and he's tellin me to close mine.

Because I know what he meant in John 3:16. Christ was not pointing his finger at his material body and saying "This body is the truth, the light, and the way", he was talking about his spirit soul, which is eternally light, and full of knowledge.

Jesus was saying that unless one becomes fully spiritual and pure as he was, then one will not enter into the spiritual kingdom and will remain in the material world. One does not become fully spiritual by simply saying or thinking "I believe in Jesus". One becomes fully spiritual by controlling the senses, controlling the mind, and changing one's consciousness from that of the material conception to that of spiritual vision. And when one makes such a transformation, the senses and mind become purified, and with purified senses one can directly experience the spiritual reality of God and Jesus. And at the time of death, it is the state of the mind which determines the next destination of the spirit soul.

If one is truly Christ conscious, and with a purified mind thinks of him and acts for him at all times, then there is no doubt that at death they will attain his nature. That is the special power of Jesus Christ. However, Christ is NOT the Supreme Lord, which is why he said that noone gets to God but *THROUGH* him. The spiritual master is the transparent medium through which one may view God, but he is not God.

KRSNA is.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:9 "Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name."

Krsna said in the Gita 14:4 "It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Jesus, who is the Son of God, addresses God the father, and KRSNA is that father.

There is no need to argue against something which is already accepted.

The reason this request is illogical is because the Vedas are transcendental knowledge. They do not describe material temporal things and events. They are above the material platform and are pure spiritual knowledge. Therefore there is little in the way of "historical evidence" to support it because the original writings predate history and do not describe material or worldly things.

There are examples of evidence, such as the Srimad Bhagavatam prophecising the appearance of Gautama Buddha (1.3.24), describing how he would preach to and convert the faithless atheists. The Bhagavatam also predicted the appearance of Lord Caitanya (11.5.32) in the beginning of the age of Kali, and the life of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu was recorded, as his birth took place in recent history in 1486.

As n9neWUN said, they are not mutually exclusive things.

More accurate than "hot and cold", one is said to be either sleeping or awake. If he is awake, he sees that ALL IS GOD, and if he is sleeping he thinks one may only see God in specific places.

I can't speak for any other threads or statements about the religion, but my conversation here doesn't really even have anything to do with "Christianity".

All I wanted to know is exactly how this cat has come to the absolute knowledge that "ONLY" the Bible is true, and everything outside it is "mythological".

Since that is obviously a claim which extends beyond the empirical validity of "Christianity", and this cat wants to play like a 5 year old and call sacred spiritual literature "bullshit", I can't say that he represents Christ or "Christianity", more like a perverted vision of it's philosophy.

I have the KJV and the NASV. I've read it through twice, once when I was like 12 and again about 2 years ago. Excellent book.

Have you ever read the Bhagavad-Gita?

I haven't studied it, but I have a homeboy who got into it. I know it has something to do with the end-times and is a doctrine about the end of the world.

The end of our short ass lives is much more immediate and important than the end of the world, which is millions of millenia away from occuring.

Trying to "mesh" religions is done by the lost ones and is counterproductive, but seeing with spiritual vision the undeniable similarities in them due to their common teaching of an Ultimate Reality is enlightenment.

sanatana-dharma is the eternal religion of the soul. Therefore no "meshing" is involved. Respect for religions, yes, assimilation of them, no.

Peace.

HERESY · Jan 14, 2003

no need to answer a question with a question. either you can answer it or you cant. if you perceive it as spiritual or physical in the END its the SAME. spiritually he is the ONLY way. PHYSICALLY his DEATH made a way.

not so. please read a bible and see if it says that. QUOTE]what's in a name? [/QUOTE] a lot. you wouldnt see a cow and start naming it BASS DRUM would you? of course not. certain names are exalted. some are brought down.

if you say so.

oh it does my friend. i will get you the verses and show you next time i post.

LMAO!

1.this thread isnt specifically about christianity or the bible yet this is an excerpt of the thread

i suggest YOU read the start of the thread again. pay attention to how many times that christianity,christian and bible are listed. compare that to the other religions/faiths that are listed.............

2. what is your reason for making a statement in regards to the bible being complete? did i say it was or wasnt complete? how is it relevent to my question? lol!

tell yourself about it. go to www.google.com and type the word in.

you said it i didnt.

this statement has NOTHING to do with the question i asked which is:

7. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW THE WORD/NAME FOR PEOPLE WHO TAKE BITS AND PIECES FROM ONE RELIGION OR DOCTRINE AND MESH IT WITH ANOTHER?

please stick to the subject matter. if you do not know the answer simply say "i dont know".

@Vyasadeva i will answer your reply later.

:H:

n9newunsixx5150 · Jan 14, 2003

quote:
this statement has NOTHING to do with the question i asked which is:

7. DO ANY OF YOU KNOW THE WORD/NAME FOR PEOPLE WHO TAKE BITS AND PIECES FROM ONE RELIGION OR DOCTRINE AND MESH IT WITH ANOTHER?

Like V said, no one is attempting to "mesh" together religions. I felt your question really didnt apply to the conversation and definitely not to me.
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quote:
2. what is your reason for making a statement in regards to the bible being complete? did i say it was or wasnt complete? how is it relevent to my question? lol!

It is relevant to the conversation. As you *assume* that the bible is the complete doctrine of God. I was just making a point.
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quote:
not so. please read a bible and see if it says that. QUOTE]what's in a name? [/QUOTE] a lot. you wouldnt see a cow and start naming it BASS DRUM would you? of course not. certain names are exalted. some are brought down.

names are names are names. blah blah blah. It is the meaning behind the name. The spirit "behind" the body. I shouldn't have to sit and explain such simple truths.
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quote:
no need to answer a question with a question. either you can answer it or you cant. if you perceive it as spiritual or physical in the END its the SAME. spiritually he is the ONLY way. PHYSICALLY his DEATH made a way.

YES! PHYSICALLY his DEATH made a way. So stop idolizing his physical body, it was only a representation of his spirit. If you believe Jesus Christ, the physical being, is your ticket to heaven then you may not be going. Because like you said, Jesus died physically. And now I will once again answer with questions.... What is spirit? Is it bound by flesh? May one understand and appreciate Jesus' selfless sacrifice and also understand the nature of his SPIRIT?

HERESY · Jan 14, 2003

it applies to the convo. the last ten posts have had to do with christianity/hinduism and which is valid. one side is accepting both while the other side is accepting one. so yes its valid. please read the thread again. once again if you do NOT know the word simply say no.

on the contrary its not relevent to the thread. this is why:

1.i have not assumed anything nor have i taken a position. i have YET to say (in this thread) if the bible is the complete doctrine of GOD.

2.i simply stated what was in the BIBLE. not HERESY views. does the bible say to seek outside doctrines ,dogmas etc etc etc?

so far you have explained nothing? if you would read a bit more instead of glancing over posts (this is why i often place you on ignore) you would have take heed to when i said:

. when you understand that you will see that your post has no merit.

can you explain to me *how* his physical death made a way?

who is idolizing his body? is his body in the grave or did he ascend? his body was a "representation of his spirit"????? what does the bible say about the PHYSICAL jesus?

can your words be backed up with bible scriptures? since jesus is a product of the bible can you use the bible to prove your statement? if you can please do.

is this a case of circulus in probando?????

:h:

ps i will let you have the last word because in the end this will be another case of you NOT answering questions posed to you (like teh hell and god threads).

n9newunsixx5150 · Jan 14, 2003

quote:
it applies to the convo.

Asking the question, it is easy to see what you are trying to imply. I deny you of this *.*
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quote:
on the contrary its not relevent to the thread. this is why:

1.i have not assumed anything nor have i taken a position. i have YET to say (in this thread) if the bible is the complete doctrine of GOD.

2.i simply stated what was in the BIBLE. not HERESY views. does the bible say to seek outside doctrines ,dogmas etc etc etc?

Ok, you had not stated your position in this thread. Perhaps I am jumping the gun a bit. I know you only adhere to the bible so I am basing it on that fact.
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quote:
so far you have explained nothing? if you would read a bit more instead of glancing over posts (this is why i often place you on ignore) you would have take heed to when i said:

I read *everything*. I understand the meaning behind "names". If there is one, then is this one Jesus or Yeshua? Because it can't be both. That would be implying that a name is variable depending on language. If I created a language where Jesus was pronounced "Larry", the meaning behind it would embody the same thing. And perhaps, if I wish, "bass drum" could mean "cow" in another language. The fact still remains: names are names are names. In and of themselves they are letters. Once again, I UNDERSTAND THE SPIRIT BACK OF THESE NAMES. There is the word, but it is empty without the intent.
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quote:
certain names are exalted. some are brought down.

. when you understand that you will see that your post has no merit.

No, you will see the broader reality of things with what I stated above. God is above human language. Do you worship letters of the alphabet?
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quote:
can you explain to me *how* his physical death made a way?

There can be much speculation on specifics here. I will tell you that I do not adhere to the idea that Jesus' flesh was the key factor. When he resurrected his body was new. I do not believe, at that point, that his body was truly bound by flesh. Of course, he manifested in form so as people could be witness to it. In your above quote I only stated what you had said to lead to a point. I made my point. If you wish to reply in regards to it, good. If not, then I can accuse you of doing that which you accuse me of doing. Not reading and keeping on topic.
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quote:
who is idolizing his body? is his body in the grave or did he ascend? his body was a "representation of his spirit"????? what does the bible say about the PHYSICAL jesus?

Spirit creates flesh. It needs not say this in the bible. I know you don't adhere to the idea that flesh creates spirit.
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quote:
can your words be backed up with bible scriptures? since jesus is a product of the bible can you use the bible to prove your statement? if you can please do.

No. Jesus is not a "product of the bible". Jesus was a real person and the new testament was written as a product of him. In light of this, I do not need to use the bible to prove my statement. Consider that the bible may not be complete. If this is so, then how can one righteously limit there mind to it? No one here is arguing against the bible's teachings. Only, one of us is attempting to close minds from further truth.
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quote:
ps i will let you have the last word because in the end this will be another case of you NOT answering questions posed to you (like teh hell and god threads).

ps: I answered all questions which applied to the conversations and applied to me. Perhaps you didn't look hard enough........

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HERESY · Jan 14, 2003

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

............

LOOK MAN IM ***NOT*** TALKING ABOUT IF YOU KNOW GREEK OR HEBREW. THATS ***NOT*** WHY I ASKED YOU THE QUESTION. IT HAS ****NOTHING**** TO DO WITH LANGUAGE MAN. READ INTO WHAT IM ASKING YOU. SOME NAMES ARE EXALTED AND CARRY POWER WHILE OTHERS ARE CAST DOWN.... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A LANGUAGE......WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IS SOMETHING ***SPIRITUAL***.

SEE THE ABOVE. IT HAS **NOTHING** TO DO WITH ALPHABET OR LANGUAGE.

DO YOUR VIEWS COINCIDE WITH THE BIBLE AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE PHYSICAL JESUS?

NO COMMENT.

THE *REAL* TOPIC IS "IS RELIGION A SOURCE OF MORALITY".....IM JUST STEPPING IN AND COMMENTING (AFTER I HAVE READ WHAT WAS POSTED). BY THE WAY I HAVE ANSWERED THE ORIGINAL QUESTION POSED BY THE THREAD STARTER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE WE CAN START A NEW THREAD.

YOUR ANSWER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY QUESTION. I ASKED YOU FOUR THINGS BASED ON YOUR STATEMENT.

1.who is idolizing his body?
2.is his body in the grave or did he ascend?
3. (REVISED) how is his body was a "representation of his spirit"?????
4.what does the bible say about the PHYSICAL jesus?

YOU SAYING :

DOES NOT ANSWER ANY OF THE 4 QUESTIONS.

IS JESUS MENTIONED IN THE HINDU WRITINGS THAT HAVE BEEN LISTED? SINCE JESUS IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE AND WE ARE DISCUSSING THE BIBLE IT WOULD BE ONLY FAIR TO USE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT JESUS TO BACK UP YOUR VIEWS.

YOU ARE DOING THE ***SAME*** THING YOU DID IN THE HELL THREAD. YOU ***CANNOT*** THROW OUT SOURCE MATERIAL. HOWEVER I WILL PLAY WITH YOUR WORDS.

YOU CANT USE A BOOK ON MUSICAL CHORDS TO EXPLAIN HOW TO PAN SOUNDS IN THE STEREO SPECTRUM. THEY ARE BOTH DEALING WITH MUSIC BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT.....THINK ABOUT IT......

SINCE THE **BIBLE*** IS OUR SOURCE MATERIAL IN REGARDS TO JESUS AND CONTAINS RELEVENT INFO ABOUT JESUS IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE THAT YOU USE IT TO PROVE YOUR STATEMENT. SIMPLY PUT HOW CAN YOU SAY *ANYTHING* ABOUT JESUS WITHOUT CONSULTING THE TEXT THAT IS RELEVENT TO JESUS? THIS IS ILLOGICAL.

THE BIBLE BEING INCOMPLETE HAS *NOTHING* TO DO WITH THE RELEVENCE OF JESUS AND YOU PROVING YOUR POINT. IF THATS THE CASE WHY DID YOU EVEN MENTION THE GOSPELS IN THE FIRST PLACE? NOW HERE IS A QUESTION FOR YOU.

HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THE BIBLE IS COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE IF YOU HAVE NEVER *STUDIED* THE BIBLE?

IF ITS INCOMPLETE AND YOU CANT USE IT AS A CREDIBLE SOURCE WHY BELIEVE IN JESUS?

DID THE BIBLE SAY TO "STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED"???? IF SO WHY HAVE YOU NOT STUDIED?

DOES THE BIBLE SAY TO *ACCEPT* ANY OTHER DOCTRINE OUTSIDE OF THE GOSPEL (THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST) AS TRUTH? IF SO SHOW ME.

IF ANYONE IS GUILTY OF DOING THAT ITS YOU. THE BIBLE *STRICTLY* FORBIDES FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF OTHERS. YOU ARE NOT ARGUING THE BIBLES TEACHINGS YET NOTHING YOU HAVE SAID CAN EVEN BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE. NOTHING COMES REMOTELY CLOSE.

C YA AROUND SPORT

:h:

PS YOU HAVENT ANSWERED *ANYTHING* ONLY DANCED AROUND.

HERESY · Jan 14, 2003

compare the following between hinduism and christianity.

GOD

CREATION OF THE WORLD

MAN

SIN

SALVATION

DEATH

COMPARE WHAT IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE TO WHAT IS FOUND IN THE VEDAS,BHAGAVAD GITA, PURANAS AND ANY OTHER HINDU WRITTINGS.

I WOULD LOVE FOR SOMEONE TO POST WHAT EACH ONE SAYS ABOUT THE 6 THINGS I LISTED.

:h:

PS YHWH HAS *NEVER* BEEN IMPERSONAL.

n9newunsixx5150 · Jan 14, 2003

quote:
LOOK MAN IM ***NOT*** TALKING ABOUT IF YOU KNOW GREEK OR HEBREW. THATS ***NOT*** WHY I ASKED YOU THE QUESTION. IT HAS ****NOTHING**** TO DO WITH LANGUAGE MAN. READ INTO WHAT IM ASKING YOU. SOME NAMES ARE EXALTED AND CARRY POWER WHILE OTHERS ARE CAST DOWN.... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A LANGUAGE......WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IS SOMETHING ***SPIRITUAL***.

I understand what you are saying. I am not trying to make any implications about language other than words and names are just letters. Once again, I understand the spirit behind the name Yeshua. What I am talking about is also ***spiritual***.
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quote:
YOU SAYING :Quote:
Spirit creates flesh. It needs not say this in the bible. I know you don't adhere to the idea that flesh creates spirit

DOES NOT ANSWER ANY OF THE 4 QUESTIONS.

Perhaps you should look deeper. Also, I cannot tell you off hand what the bible says specifically about these subjects. If this answer satisfies you more, good. I never said I was a biblical scholar. I am reading it, but I have much further to go. Perhaps no one is idolizing his body, but I put that out to make clear my point.
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quote:
IS JESUS MENTIONED IN THE HINDU WRITINGS THAT HAVE BEEN LISTED? SINCE JESUS IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE AND WE ARE DISCUSSING THE BIBLE IT WOULD BE ONLY FAIR TO USE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT JESUS TO BACK UP YOUR VIEWS.

YOU ARE DOING THE ***SAME*** THING YOU DID IN THE HELL THREAD. YOU ***CANNOT*** THROW OUT SOURCE MATERIAL. HOWEVER I WILL PLAY WITH YOUR WORDS.

YOU CANT USE A BOOK ON MUSICAL CHORDS TO EXPLAIN HOW TO PAN SOUNDS IN THE STEREO SPECTRUM. THEY ARE BOTH DEALING WITH MUSIC BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT.....THINK ABOUT IT......

The name Jesus is not mentioned in Hindu writings, I assume since I have not read very much Hindu writings yet. I know I could have overlooked answering that question given that it was rhetorical. But, because you seem to misperceive it as "avoiding the topic", I did.
Well, consider that the bible does not fully express Jesus. Or that it may be incomplete. And, no one is "throwing out" source material.
I do not see the connection between your analogy on "music" with what I wrote. I stated that the bible is a product of Jesus. How can one decide that his life is completely embodied in the bible when it was the bible which was inspired by him? Suggesting this is like for me to read your interview you are going to do with that Vallejo newspaper and assuming that this article must embody all multi-dimensional characterisitics of this man known as Heresy.
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quote:
SINCE THE **BIBLE*** IS OUR SOURCE MATERIAL IN REGARDS TO JESUS AND CONTAINS RELEVENT INFO ABOUT JESUS IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE THAT YOU USE IT TO PROVE YOUR STATEMENT. SIMPLY PUT HOW CAN YOU SAY *ANYTHING* ABOUT JESUS WITHOUT CONSULTING THE TEXT THAT IS RELEVENT TO JESUS? THIS IS ILLOGICAL.

Once I have a better knowledge of the bible these truths will be further reconciled. And because I cannot quote the bible word for word doesn't mean that I am completely in the dark on the topic. If you have something contrary to say, say it. I invite you to quote the bible if you feel I have missed the point of the teachings. The only difference, it seems, is that I *also* read in between the lines.
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quote:
HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THE BIBLE IS COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE IF YOU HAVE NEVER *STUDIED* THE BIBLE?

IF ITS INCOMPLETE AND YOU CANT USE IT AS A CREDIBLE SOURCE WHY BELIEVE IN JESUS?

Studying it or not will not give me absolute fact that it is or not. I was only **suggesting** it MAY be incomplete to make a point. I do not think **truth** begins and ends within a single book. I know that many of the teachings of various other doctrines can be reconciled with the bible. I do not adhere to the idea that "one doctrine replaces another". Also, I never said it wasn't credible. When I suggest it being "incomplete" I am only speaking of the possibility that you may be missing "truths" that you did not see before. And, if I can reconcile some truths between other faiths, then why can't I find more. Why must the common points between faiths be overlooked?
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miggidy · Jan 14, 2003

n9newunsixx5150 said:

N9ne I understand bro. But do know that it was an open mind that lead me to God in the first place. I was once a dog who ate what the powers that be fed me.
With no question I absorbed what they taught. But I found it was was all a game of deception when my eyes opened up. You and V are quick to label me narrow minded all because I have concluded that there is only one God and that the biblical account of him is the only way. You guys have no idea where I'm coming from. I am not a born Christian who knows nothing about the divinity of Christ.
And I am not a zombie breed by urban culture...
Don't think that I'm narrow minded for concluding that the God of the bible is the ultimate reality. I found this to be true in many ways.
The difference between you, V, and I isn't a state of closed or open mind.
You two are still searching for the ultimate reality through any medium.
I am a few steps ahead in the journey as I already found the ultimate reality.
Don't get offended by this, as I don't mean it in an offensive way.
I am being sincere here, I truly feel that you will reach the same conclusion that I have reached, as long as you keep searching.

I like the approach one has with an open mind. I mean it was an open mind that lead V to God in the first place.
I jumped on him because he claimed to believe in the divinity of Jesus.
Well as you know, that is contradictory because Jesus clearly states all through out the gospel that he is the only way.
Now if you were to look at the whole picture from outside, in a perspective of one who believes in God, then it is safe to assume that the Vedas, the bible and the Quran speak of the same God.
That's what I thought at first when I started digging info on religion.
I found that Krishna, Allah, and the biblical God are all different.
They are similar but have their own characteristics.
And they are separated by these characteristics, the biblical God would never say the things Allah says, and Allah would never agree with Krishna.
Research their teachings, and you will see that they all have similar philosophies,
but are quite distinct.
I totally understand that you guys believe in God, judging by the way you guys are searching for him through the many religions of the world.
But to say that you believe in the divinity of Christ is taking this too far.
Why? If you believe in Christ, then it means that you believe in the New Testament's account of his life. And the New testaments account of God is different then the teachings of any other religion. There for you are contradicting yourself.
I hope you understand this, and not just claim that I'm narrow minded for saying this.
You can't just take from the bible only what settles with you best.
It's the truth, you can't just believe in some parts of the bible. If you accept some then you must accept the entire account because it all comes from the same source.
It all comes from the same source, it doesn't make sense to believe parts of it since you don't find it reliable enough to accept the entire bible.
You understand what I'm saying?

Now as far as the bible having more facts supporting it because it's more popular, Hmmmm.... I understand your point....
But shouldn't believers of the Vedas be looking for facts to back up their beliefs?
I mean that they should be trying to spread their beliefs because they believe are legit. And it would make perfect sense to seek facts to back up their claims.
I don't buy that there isn't much facts supporting the Vedas because there haven't been people seeking them.
I mean, Muslims are always looking for facts to support the Quran.
Sure Islam is very popular too but so is Buddhism. I think believers of the Vedas should throw in more effort. But who's to say they haven't already done that.
It is only speculation that the Vedas have no solid facts because there is a lack of effort to seek evidence to support them.

Now you state that the facts supporting the bible are only facts to support events in the bible. True, most are but there is also facts that support actions of God.
For instance the remains of the burnt up cities of Sodom and Gomorrah whom God destroyed in the book of Genesis. There we have found ashes buried to prove that they actually did burn thousands of years ago in a direct act from God.
Proving the divinity of God at least. Now as for Jesus, the only proof would be to witness his power. But that alone doesn't mean much as there will always be people who would rebel and question him. So it does come down to faith as you said.
But you cannot deny how people questioned the entire bible and looked at it as false. But you gotta ask yourself, does a false book have so many proven claims?
It doesn't make sense does it? The bible has revealed a lot of details from the ancient world that people discredited that is until evidence is discovered supporting the details. So far the bible has a perfect track record.
I made a judgment call having known this, and it is my conclusion giving the facts that the entire bible is legit. At least until proven otherwise.
There's no time to waste cuz I'll miss the boat. And this boat ain't coming back for a second trip. Might as well jump in now since I have nothing to lose and everything to gain, you know what I mean?

Peace,
Miggidy

miggidy · Jan 14, 2003

@Vyasadeva

Hey, I never said I majored in English LOL!
Naw bro, we’re the same age.
About the pigs now, well I used to be a pig that ate what “they” fed me.
Now I eat independently.
As for you, you have stopped eating their shit
but you’re looking and still haven’t found your next meal....
You know, I’ve been thinking.
I want to apologize for snappin, I mean I can tell now that you do not fully understand the teachings of Jesus. There for I will ease off since you are not at my level yet. I mean, I only jumped on you because you claimed to believe in Jesus’ divinity.
I was hard on you but it was only because you claimed to understand Jesus.
But it’s my bad for assuming….

With that out of the way.
How long have you been searching for God?
Meaning searching for God in the religions of the world?
I ask because you seem to be in the same position that I found
myself when I opened my eyes and finally realized that there is a god after all.
I started searching everywhere for him, through history and religion.
It leads me to the White Brotherhood religion of the Mayas and worked my way down every religion. It turns out that some Maya God had foretold that he would send to Earth a person similar to that of Jesus. Today it’s members claim that they prophesized his coming. They knew ahead of time because he was one of their founders.
Then this led me to the Sumerian tablets, which I urge you and or anyone else to check them out. The Sumerian tablets tell a story of creation that sort of made sense. But what struck me was the fact the tablets tell of a story of man’s creation identical to the biblical scriptures. And then it also has a story identical to the great flood found in Genesis.
Also the tablets speak of the sons of God coming down from the heavens and taking women as wives. They gave birth to the Anunaki, and the bible speaks of the Nehalem whom were born to women who married some Angels that came down from heaven.
This is then backed up by the Book of Enoch found in Ethiopia, which clearly states that
these angels were watchers for mankind but then they lusted for woman.
They left their post to marry women giving birth to the Nehalem also known as the “Giants” found in Genesis. According to the book of Enoch, this pissed God off and prompted him to kill everyone. What happened was that the Nehalem spread evil in man’s heart. They started eating everything including themselves, in other words, cannibalism. They taught man how to make weapons of war, they taught them how to use spells for evil magic. (if that’s what you want to call it)….
So everything was corrupt, God destroyed everything with the Flood.
Interesting, some dude in the days of the Old Testament recorded these evil spells, demon casting, etc… in a book he named the Necronomicon. As you know, Wicca freaks hold this book as their equivalence of the bible. Satan worshippers use this book.
But as far as I know, these books were destroyed by the church around the 3rd century.
A copy of this book is very likely to exist in the hands of someone, that’s why you see so many followers of Satan now days performing rituals from this book.
What’s funny is that the church doesn’t believe the book of Enoch to be legit.
Seems to me that they find it disturbing there for they canned it.

I was an atheist at the time but this really got my attention.
The Sumerian tablets seem to go into detail in what Moses wrote in the book of Genesis.
There’s a few differences and contradictions but yet the similarities are striking.
Anyway this led me to picking up the bible for educational purposes. While at the same time, I had a few number of questions about God that had been killing me.
Something inside kept telling me to look into the bible for my answers. I never listened and looked for my answers through people. Which was a big mistake because I was getting mixed messages. So I finally picked up the bible and began to read.
Right off the back I noticed how ignorant I was to biblical scripture.
I found a lot of my answers, the most important ones.
And every now and then, I come across a question,
But the funny thing is that no matter how tough the question is, I find my answer.
I tried proving the bible wrong and have failed.
And I learn new stuff about it every day, the bible is as perfect as a book can be.
Well as far as I can tell….

So the difference between you and I is that I’m already out of that phase.
I’ve learned about all kinds of shit and everything comes back to the bible.
I still keep an open mind to everything else though.
I will never make the mistake of being stubborn again, ever again.
So if you have stumbled across anything interesting, feel free to share.

****Cont.****

Is Religion the Source of Morality?

Sicc OG

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Fresh

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Anti-feminist

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Anti-feminist

THE HIDDEN HAND...

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

Sicc OG