If you don't like America.....why don't you leave?

[Dirty Shoez]

1st off, let’s keep my name out your mouth (or off the keyboard or whatever) unless it’s a direct conversation.

Worry about you. i will take care of me.

2nd try to find an instance where I have flat out and blatantly stated I ‘…hate the gov’t..’ as you so proclaim. Time after time you fail to understand it is not the gov’t which I detest, rather the officials within the system who dictate private interest over indigent public needs (and according to your perspective, one would think you would too)…

The Government and those in Government are the same thing. You need to stop playing word games. I don't need a verbatim quote to be able to claim you hate the United States. Your other words speak loud enough.

"If someone was to not have a dick, then they'd be a bitch."
"So you're saying all women are bitches?"
"NO! AND I DARE YOU TO FIND ME AN INSTANCE WHERE I SAID SO!"

It is the same shit.

3rd I guess this’ll be something we’ll have to agree to disagree with, but Cannabis (aka HEMP, bud, ect.) are not DRUGS (like Meth, Coke, Ex, Acid, or any OTC or pharmaceutical heroin based prescription pill), especially in my book.. ( It’s an herbal gift from the almighty… Despite the crooked DEA (or accompanied FDA, ATF, ect.) classification as a schedule 1, however this is another thread.

Martha Stewart is a felon, and you are a drug user. And if you use drugs every day, then surely you are a drug addict.

I guess this is kinda the same way I consider dropping White PHOSPHORUS (element #15 on the periodic table) on a civilan population a gross human right violation and use of Chemicle weapon, despite the US gov’t dissenting ‘Official Position’

Refer to the link i posted. It bitch-slaps every one of you fake Internet Pundits with REAL LIFE FACTS.

Hey I know, since the Dutch hasn’t sprayed the mid-East with Napalm, why don’t I go move to the Netherlands for a year, b/c Marijuana is legal there, I‘d be so much more knowledgeable… (stops and thinks), actually, not a bad idea, oops except for the fact that I’ve already visited there, and guess what, I’d rather live in SEATTLE, network with local musicians, coach JV baseball, enjoy the support of and giving back to my family and community, advocate the enforcement of international/domestic human rights, stay active and informed in local and federal politics, and develop a greater understanding of Real Estate (and other self-directed hustles).

Leaving the country for 3-5 years won't stop you from doing all that for the next 20-40+ years of your life.

Wait a minute, how can anyone do that without first living in a 3rd (or even 4th world country, which by the way are even ‘worse’ than my fictional prespective of unidentifiable 3rd word countries) for a 2-3 years.

Anyway, I hadn’t intended to spend so much time, ah well.

OK.

Ahh to be young and naive. Your Degree doesn’t ultimately dictate your professional field. I know religion majors who started out as a temp answering phones, and is now one of the top associates in a contracting firm. I know finance majors who’ve become DJ’s.

Good for you....???? Remind me again how it is naive to believe that someone who majors in Accounting or Finance is more likely to get a job in, say, Accounting or Finance, than a History major (B.A.) is going to get a job...uh...recounting history?

Or are you doing like we both know you're doing, and just throwing out words that have absolutely no business being used here?

As I’m sure you’ll come to see, more often than not, it’s who you know not what you know, and what you’re willing to sacrifice….

In the Big City, Yes. In the rest of the Cities.....No. We don't have time for politics and other beurocratic bullshit--what matters is that the job gets done.

And one more thing,

Tadou, do you know what gov’t system your ideals share… the Khmer Rouge, have the people move out to small towns and villages out of the city and teach children to have 100% faith in the gov’t. (there’s no plausible way for corruption there)

Imagine how much better it would be to just bow down to an omnipotent oppressive autocratic regime which only favor‘s the WEALTHY (see Chris Rocks definition of wealth)…

That's neato, Stalin Jr. I didn't realize that.

Afterall that’s what you’ll end up with if the people remain uniformed & uneducated, hence ’No Child Left Behind’ and Fox News!

QUACK!!!!!!

Is that right?...Oops, look what I found...

So that proves what I said didn't come a month after you joined....how again?

What part of the American dream is living in Mexico?

The part where I live abroad on Uncle Sam's dime, so i might experience the world and come back and share my experiences to make my community a better and more understanding place, esp. towards Mexicans or other Latinos.......?

Like he already said, keep my name out of your mouth unless you're speaking/typing directly to me. My name isn't dick, so keep it out of your mouth... :dead:

You've posted in this thread multiple times. You are in this forum every day. As such, I will say your name any time I feel like it.

You act as if i am bringing up your name on other forums you don't go to and have no knowledge of. There is no need to act like a little douchebag.

And you don't wreck any arguments except your own, you're just too blind to see it.

Yeah, that must be it. Sort of like the whole, "Make Love, Not War" gay hippie philosophy that you undoubtedly share in. "In a war, both sides are the losers"...fair enough. But one of the Losers comes out of it with more money, more power and more respect, and the other, as a little bitch and a punching bag.

I'd also like to say that I do NOT hate our government, I just strongly disagree with the way it's being lead, who is leading it, and the reasons they are leading it.

"I don't hate women. I just hate anyone who's not a man!"

Stop the word games. The GOVERNMENT = THE PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT. ---- The SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT = The SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. ---- This is how people with half a brain or more understand these things.

I'm allowed to believe what I want, just as you are, but the difference is you DO NOT EVER show respect. So you won't get it back until you stop acting like a little hoe cake.

Respect != Contempt. Understand this, sir. I respect what you say and I respect your right to say it. But you need to understand that I am still allowed to think you are a fruit for saying it.

Oh yeah, what happened to hittin me up on Yahoo? I still got the same screen name. Got somethin to say to/about me, say it to ME.

You weren't online last night. And fuck son, you aren't online right now. What, do you want me to go buy a fucking Sidekick and keep it on my side, so when your candy ass finally decides to hop online YOU can get at ME? -- Right after I made my post last night, I left Yahoo on for some 3 hours. Not one sign of you.

You need to find yourself online, friend. Because I am going to ask you to explain to me how the American Dream doesn't exist. Then I am going to have you explain how the opposite of Conformist is a Rebel (you will agree with this when i propose it); and then I am going to make fun of you for being a white man rebelling against a system that was created FOR YOU; and yet, you walk around calling other people idiots. It will be classic.

 

[I AM]

Just cause the system was set up to benefit white males doesn't mean that I should take advantage of something that I feel is wrong. That's principle and defines character, something you don't know about or have. Just for you, I'm signing into Yahoo. So holler at your fucking boy.

And calling someone a "fruit" or whatever for believing what they do, is NOT respect. That's disrespect. If you don't understand that, it's on you. I really don't feel the need to go on with this anymore, cause I know how you operate on here. Good day to you sir.

 

[Dirty Shoez]

Hey Tadou, weren't you also in AA because of a drinking problem/dui/mip (or some shit)? Now tell me how you justify talking about someone else's "drug problems/drug use"? You speak all this bullshit and point fingers...Well buddy, seems like you're the only one who has fingers pointed away from you-isn't that shocking? Not really, cause since you can't get anyone to suck your dick you must have to do it yourself.

Something like that...??? Are you mad because Marijuana is a drug; and that you ADMIT OPENLY ON THESE FORUMS that you use it; and that as a result, you are in fact a drug user?

How does me being compelled by a judge to go to AA have anything to do with you being a drug-user? Is a judge compelling you to use drugs? I'm missing your point here.

What you're doing now is like me running around admitting to robbing houses; and then you call me a criminal, and then i get all butt-hurt and bring up some shit you did in the past. The fact of the matter is, if i rob houses, I am a criminal. Period.

You need to stop acting like a little girl and accept the fact that you are a drug-smoker.

And much applause to L-Mac for that question, "what part of the American dream is living in Mexico?"

Cause if you're a true blue American, you'd want to be in YOUR country and ONLY your country.

See above. If our country didn't had a single immigrant, then maybe you'd have a point. But seeing as though we have MILLIONS--you don't have a leg to stand on.

Funny how some asshole Conservative like me is going to end up doing more for poor Minorities and Immigrants than you will probably ever do in your Liberal lifetime. It's just plain hilarious, when you really think about it.

And that American Dream you speak of is an illussion. It's a way that the gov't has brain washed people into comforming to their beliefs, because the ONLY way you can acheive the American Dream is by doing what the gov't tells you...Well, if you wanna be the gov't's bitch and get butt fucked by them all day, you go right ahead.

I will happily get politically buttfucked as long as it means making $60K a year teaching minorities to be better people; instead of running around like a douchebag screaming about how corrupt everything is, yet, being an Advertising major, coming up with ways to trick consumers into buying the White Man's products to make a living.

 

[I AM]

Yes, I smoke weed. It's a magic plant, lol, not a drug. Oh yeah, I'm not an advertising major either. Back to the convo on Yahoo tho.

 

[Dirty Shoez]

Major...Minor...Took the 101...its all the same thing :cheeky:

I have voiced my opinions on this subject in the past. No need to make another thread about it.

Uhh...ok then. I guess I'll take that as a Win (Rap = Black Artform), and we can move on.

See the above.

Likewise.

Who are you to tell me what I need to do? I do what I want to do, and if you don't like how I respond you don't NEED to reply.

OK then. Lets try this again.

"One would request that you not..."
"It would be preferable if you would not..."
"You might placate me if you would agree to..."

I guess "You need to" was a bit to informal for you. My apologies.

Which is what I basically did a paragraph or two after I asked the question. However, you are the one presenting the topic so its on you to clarify. You should be thankful someone DID ask you to clarify your statement before voicing opinions.

Then one would request that you put things in order, placing your request for clarification AFTER you had made your own elaboration.

This is NOT Jeopardy and you are NOT Alex. I couldn't care less if you are going to put up with pointless question-asking or if you have wasted time doing so in the past. YOU need to clarify what you say regardless regardless of ANYONE asking you to or not.

Verily I do not.

You will take what I say and you will give me your opinion of it. Should you feel the urge to ask a question, what you need to do instead is pretend you are me, type a bunch of shit out, and then afterwards, ask me if i agree with it. You will do this to demonstrate that you care about the topic.

I am certainly not going to type a bunch of shit out when I'm not even sure if you're paying attention, knowing that you might just be saying this "please clarify" shit just to fuck with me and waste my time.

Do you honestly believe the majority of people you come across know what social conservatism is? You are giving mankind too much credit. I asked what YOUR definition was because I honestly feel your definition does not truly describe social conservatism.

You are pretending a knowledge of Social Conservatism. Therefore, reason compels you to give your own version first, and then either ask if i agree with it, or don't; and what parts i would change. Simply asking "Define ____?" is unreasonable.

And yes, the people do know the system that i speak of. Whether or not they choose to ascribe it a name is up to them.

You wasted time saying it would happen, and why should I trust you?

Why wouldn't you? Are you going to sit there and tell me you are incapable of imaging how, if i were to say the Black Community needed more Conservative leaders, some idiot would pop out and scream about Wars and Tax Cuts for the Rich and being an Uncle Tom and so on? Don't be naive.

I never implied I was a mod. How is this relevent?

Moderator. As in, in a Debate, the Moderator selects and asks questions. Not the participants. I am not talking about the Internet.

This is yet another example of this concept that, apparently, is completely foreign to you. You act as though you've never seen a televised or otherwise structured debate before.

The clarification was not to benefit me but benefit others and yourself. I did draw info from what you said and told you I agree with you IF that was YOUR definition of social conservatism. The true definition and practice of social conservatism exceeds your miniscule definition which is another reason why you should have clarified yourself from the start. It is a dead issue now.

It is dead because you will not shut up asking me to clarify it, instead of clarifying it yourself.

I said the black community needed Social Conservatism; and then i named a few examples of what that would entail and which facets would help the most. I didn't say, "This is my essay on Social Conservatism", and then proceed to type out a 30 page thesis. You need to understand this.

If you need clarification, then you need to learn how to draw that information out of the other person.

This is true. But i would remind you that there is a distinct difference between clarification and elaboration (and reiteration, even.)

The government should not be free of skepticism simply because they provide education.

And thus, the playing field is created. It is now up to the both of us to decide in what amounts Skepticism is encouraged and at what amount does it becomes destructive.

It has everything to do with how a child is raised and what they learn growing up, especially when you claim immoral behavior leads to distrust of the government.

I claim no such thing. What i do claim is the correlation that the more someone is outside of the society's boundaries (excessive promiscuity, drug use, et al), the more likely they are to distrust the government. Morality is of no consequence.

I would also argue that the more goats one milks each day, the more likely they are to vote Republican. Would you disagree with THAT, or are you simply being combative because i used the hookers/drugs example and you like one and/or the other?

If you are not a member of the global elite, trusting the government 100% is sheer lunacy. Even if you are a member of the global elite it is still lunacy. Trust the government 100% for what? If you were to say trust in God or trust in yourself 100% I would agree with you.

Thus, before your analysis continues, we might both be considered loons. Surely the man with a delusional mind should do anything BUT trust himself 100%.

Trust in the government 100% and be a mindless lamb fit for the slaughter? The government has never given the poor a fair shake, so why should anyone trust a government that has constantly shown it does not have the peoples best interest in mind?

First of all, I would remind you that I have been (and still am) poor, so you should watch your use of the word Never.

Secondly, I would remind you of what i said earlier about a playing field being created. You say the one thing, I say the opposite and then we battle for the middle. This shit we are doing now is only the beginning in a series of debates and threads, if you are willing to make this all come to fruition.

People can believe what they want to as soon as they have convictions and a reason for believing the way they do. You have many people that will NEVER go to college and NEVER land a good paying job, but you feel they should remain a silent voice? Your social conservatism sounds more like elitism with every post you make.

Apparently, you are making a concerted effort to not even attempt to meet me half-way or excercise logic. Fair enough. i will do your work for you.

Friend, if you don't want to go to college, then good for you. You should never be forced to. If you just want to be a fucktard and skip it all, then go ahead. Hate the government all you want. Curse them every step of the way, especially when you find yourself needing a $15/hour job to feed your family, and yet, your skills are not up to par.

What I am telling you, good sir, is that if you are going to go straight from High School to College; and you plan to work straight through college, not taking any quarters off; and immediately after you graduate, get a good job; then it would be better for you if you trusted the Government through each individual step of the process, especially during the transitory periods, to deliver you to where you are trying to go.

Anything less, and you're going to sound like a toothless 70-year old yelling out "I DON'T NEED YOUR DAMN HELP!", when verily, You ought to accept it.

 

[Dirty Shoez]

I agree with you.

Thx.

What hinders them more self hatred or hatred for the government?

When they are so closely correlated, it is hard to judge them separately as you are asking.

What is more of a stumbling block not having someone to mentor you and boost your self worth or placing trust in a government that continues to do a misjustice to your people?

There are mentors all around you no matter where you live. The same for "misjustice", which could be anything from the price of milk being too high to a crack being on the sidewalk in front of your house but not your neighbor's.

Again, I would remind you that I come from a smaller town and not one of these bigger 1/2 million plus cities, where gross inequality is to be EXPECTED. Like I told another man earlier today, the bigger cities are for people who already have Momentum (i.e., just attained a college degree, or a good-paying job, etc); not for people to go to when they don't have shit.

Before you can tackle issues one may have with the government, you must first adress why they have the issues. The government is not capable of giving ANYONE a better life. Each man is capable of giving HIMSELF a better life.

...With the help of the Government. To refuse that help, the man would have to be a fucktard and a halfwit.

IMHO it was never a matter to be settled.

Thus the reason for my sarcasm.

No one has implied all black youth live in big cities. Your point? The government does many despicable acts each day. Deal with it.

"Keep this in mind when you are dealing with black youth who do not understand the things you do or have the experience you have."

I am a Black youth, so what else could you have possibly been talking about, besides that not all Blacks grow up the way I did, in a small town? Unless you were wasting my time with the "Everybody is different" argument, only later to argue, "Everybody should be equal".


"The government does many despicable acts each day"

I would love to see you make a 24-hours time-line of this, outlining all the horrible things the Government is responsible for doing in one given day.

Yes it is saddening, and if a politician is saying this shouldn't that be one more reason NOT to trust the government 100% as you suggested?

No. This would be a reason not to trust loud-mouthed Opposition candidates.

Poor people can afford college if they know of the resources availiable to them. A lot of people may want to go to college but don't know how to go about doing it. I have witnessed this first hand and continue to see it each day.

So you agree that the Government has made it possible for the vast majority of people to go to college, but because of outside factors, many are unaware.

You blame this factor on The Government not having its own TV channel and T-Shirt line. I blame this on local politicians, state senators, liberal activists, etc. having agendas and generally being stupid assholes. "Save Our Schools!" protests don't do very well with the knowledge that everyone, in fact, CAN afford to go to school and that gov't funding ISN'T in danger of disappearing.

I have not mischaracterized anything. I distrust the government MORE than the average crackhead so whats my excuse?

"I do NOT like this government, and I don't do ANY of the things you mentioned" -- This is a mischaracterization.

If A is a Dog and B is a mammal, then: If X = A, X = B.
YET...if X is a mammal, that DOES NOT mean X is a dog.

You took the result of what i said and tried to disprove it by reversing my example. It doesn't work that way.

Whether or not you or anyone else hates the government (B) is inconsequential. My statement was that the more people engage in sex and drug behavior (A), the more likely they are to hate the government (B). (Please don't make me waste my time explaining what "The more ___, The More ___" means.)

The average crackhead PROBABLY has a REASON for not trusting the government and will differ based on experience. You may encounter a drugged out army vet who detests the government. His issue may be stem from being denied benefits or physical disabilities that prevent him from holding a job and force him to live in shelters.

Methinks having an expensive drug habit necessitates living in shelters and not holding a job.

Have you considered the root of the problem? The household. The one parent in the home, the father pushing drugs and in and out of jail, the mother with a different man each night? The parent telling the child they are a mistake and destroying any and all sense of self worth and dignity? Rejection of authority starts at HOME.

Again, you say these things, and your examples are firmly rooted in what happens in the big city and in SPECIFIC neighborhoods; and NOT what happens in smaller cities in ALL neighborhoods.

Again...the Root doesn't matter. Hypocrisy matters. Hypocrisy is something that manifests itself in people all over the place, in every social class, in equal numbers (if not MORE among the Rich!). Hypocrites cannot be expected to do much of anything, least of which is raising themselves out of poverty.

I have no comment on Sixxness and JoMoDo and have no knowledge of them doing drugs. I thought we were discussing black children are they black?

We have been talking about the youth of America, period. I decided to give you a current example of people you regularly come into contact with that fit your stereotype and i wanted to see if your blanket statement would hold up.

Your response being a question of no consequence, I guess we can take that as a No.

It has also been proven that the government you suggest trusting 100% does business with drug cartels. What is your point?

You tell me. What do drug cartels have to do with people choosing both to do drugs and to hate the government (choosing, being the key word)?

We won't continue an endless circle, and her experiences are not applicable to everyone. Can everyone who is broke go to school and possibly earn a degree? Yes if they are DISCIPLINED, have the capacity to learn and have the ability to tap into resources availiable.

Exactly. You are moving towards the argument that being Disciplined is the exception rather than the rule; and that the great majority of our youth today are undisciplined and have not had built into them the capacity to learn and utilize resources.

You think one way. I think the other. I have witnessed mine in action. You have witnessed yours. The result of mine is prosperity and hope. The result of yours is hopelessness and sadness. You will not change my mind to a sad and hopeless one, and i will not change yours to a prosperous and hopeful one.

It does not. Especially when the judicial system is designed to hinder progress and not rehabilitate.

Sure it is, and sure it does. There is not much I can even say to things like this, friend.

I have seen the system work. I have also witnessed people that say "fuck the system", and as a result, they are not doing so well. Or well. Doesn't matter. But i do know that the more likely someone is to utilize the System, the better off i have seen them. The reverse does not hold true. Therefore, the only result I can possibly obtain, is that the System is working.

True, but these are strands within a greater web. I vote on a local level, but does that mean these people are not prone to error or have my interest in mind?

I wouldn't know. All i can tell you is that working within the System, on a whole, is more beneficial than working outside of it.

Actually, in my experiences it has leaned more towards acceptance of the government and often reminds me of the relationship between Sambo and Massa.

Or Neo-Sambo and the Democratic Party. The ones who are telling minorities: "Hold! Stay where you are! Do not improve yourselves, lest the Republicans be able to take the credit! It would be better if you wait til we are back in power, so that we might prove to the world that we were right all along! Trust, we will deliver you if only you would vote for us, and castigate those who would side with the Conservatives!"

It makes as much sense as telling someone to trust the government 100%.

Friend, trusting in the Government 100% makes about as much sense as "Giving 100%!" on a job or what have you. Both are impossible. It is the ideal that matters.

They have been subconsciously doing it because it has been done to THEM. It is a cycle that NEEDS to be broken.

It is not always a cycle, friend. Some people are just plain fucking assholes. It's just like when your parents are the nicest people in the world, and yet, your brother still fucked with you and beat you up when you were young. Thats not a cycle. Thats an asshole.

The same happens when people get older, if they've grown up getting their way and never getting in trouble. They're going to fuck with anyone and everyone until they finally get bitch-slapped; and even then, they might STILL convince themselves it was only a fluke, and continue in their ways.

 

[Dirty Shoez]

I am speaking from my point of view and for ME. Like you, I have friends who have never experienced the above and they feel they don't need college. In each instance it is a case of the person NOT being able to learn (because

they have NOT learned HOW to learn) or not having discipline.

And I am telling you right now, that in middle-America, it is the exact opposite. People know perfectly well how to learn, they just don't want to, because it's "cool" to hate the government, to neglect their studies, to go out every week, to buy new jordans, to make 3-4 token minority friends, and all this other shit. For fucks sake, even people IN college do all of the above except for the neglect college part! You will see them as you continue!

I have walked the streets of Frisco, Oakland, Camden, San Diego, Chicago, L.A. and Harlem and made it a point to talk to those who are considered the dredge of society. You have people who have DEGREES eating out of GARBAGE CANS. We live in a world where blessings come and go - one minute you are up and the next you are down. Always remember that because ANYONE of us can be in that position within a matter of moments.

Agreed. Regardless of the functionality of the System or the Greatness of the Government, ANY ONE OF US could find ourselves eating out of garbage cans for WHATEVER Non-Systematic, Non-Government-Faulted reason. Excellent point.

Quite the opposite. From what I see most dealers become users and users continue to use. Big-time dealers are usually those who have been in the game and actually make a BUSINESS out of it. But, why are you mentioning drug users when I mentioned dealers? The user is not relevent please stick to what has been posted.

The user is extremely relevant. Have you forgotten where you even BEGAN with your example? If you don't want users to be included, then you ought not mention people who hold degrees and "barely eat each month".

Doing so, and refusing to admit drug abusers into the equasion, you might as well be saying people with degrees are idiots because they aren't guranteed anything, but if you sell drugs you ARE guaranteed a good living.

What do you tell a person who has seen drugs and quick money since they were born? What do you tell a person who has been in and out of the system since he was 12 years old?

The first, I would tell that they are lucky to witness such a marvelous spectacle. Because most drug users die or end up in jail or have some other unfortunate consequence happen; they don't usually "eat well".

The second, I wouldn't know. I know several people who have, technically, been "in and out of the system", but every single one of them were capable of doing better. They just chose not to and to blame their faults on someone or something else.

My job is to make MY life easier. Good day.

No shit. Thus the reason it is called an idiom.

 

[Kreep]

As for this post, I'm currently making arrangements to make hijra (migrate) to either Saudi Arabia or Yemen. But I have some felonies, as well as other obstacles getting in my way. But insha'Allah as soon as I can get past some of these laws, I'm out. Until then, I'm stuck here...

 

[Dirty Shoez]

Al-Hamdu Lil-Laah. Verily He knows what is best for you.

 

[HERESY]

Uhh...ok then. I guess I'll take that as a Win (Rap = Black Artform), and we can move on.

How is it a win? I never implied it was not an art form and even suggested you read past threads and post pertaining to the subject. I am NOT in disagreement with you as far as it being a black art form in ORIGIN.

I guess "You need to" was a bit to informal for you. My apologies.

No, it was not too informal and you can keep your sarcasm.

Then one would request that you put things in order, placing your request for clarification AFTER you had made your own elaboration.

I do not need to I was responding in the order YOU presented the information. If anything, YOU should have clarified social conservatism as soon as you mentioned it instead of doing so one to two paragraphs later.

You will take what I say and you will give me your opinion of it. Should you feel the urge to ask a question, what you need to do instead is pretend you are me, type a bunch of shit out, and then afterwards, ask me if i agree with it.
You will do this to demonstrate that you care about the topic.

I will respond how I see fit, and if you do not want to reply, you have the option to not do so. I will not conform to your rules, policies, and standards. As long as I do not belittle you and you do not make foolish attempts to belittle me, we can continue this "discussion" and exchange views.

I am certainly not going to type a bunch of shit out when I'm not even sure if you're paying attention, knowing that you might just be saying this "please clarify" shit just to fuck with me and waste my time.

You are certainly not going to type a bunch of shit out yet you have typed several pages responding to me and several pages slinging mud back and fourth with other members. How are you not sure, if I am paying attention when I have responded to EVERYTHING you have said? I have better things to do than fuck with YOU and waste your time. You are simply a screen name on siccness.net and have no influence in my world. Keep that in mind.

You are pretending a knowledge of Social Conservatism.

How do you come to that conclusion when I have yet to elaborate on what I truly feel social conservatism is?

Therefore, reason compels you to give your own version first, and then either ask if i agree with it, or don't; and what parts i would change. Simply asking "Define ____?" is unreasonable.

Did you not read the various things I typed after I asked you about social conservatism? Please go back and read. Asking someone to define something is NOT unreasonable. What if others or I had NEVER heard of social conservatism and said, "Social conservatism is eating noodles, and playing basketball with A.D.A.Ts, and do you agree tadou? Or do you feel we should play with rocks instead of adats" would that make sense? No. You are the one who introduced the idea to the discussion and YOU have the duty to clarify and convey the ideas in a precise manner.

And yes, the people do know the system that i speak of. Whether or not they choose to ascribe it a name is up to them.

It is not logical to assume someone knows something. If I had ascribed the wrong attributes and meaning to your definition I would have been at fault. No matter how much you try to spin it you should clarify your thoughts and viewpoints.

Why wouldn't you? Are you going to sit there and tell me you are incapable of imaging how, if i were to say the Black Community needed more Conservative leaders, some idiot would pop out and scream about Wars and Tax Cuts for the Rich and being an Uncle Tom and so on? Don't be naive.

Why would I trust you? You have given me no reason to trust you and insist on making issue out of nothing so I will pass. In the past, some have openly stated a position similar to yours and not ONE person said anything about tax cuts and Uncle Toms.

Moderator. As in, in a Debate, the Moderator selects and asks questions. Not the participants. I am not talking about the Internet.

We are BOTH asking and answering questions tadou so why use the analogy of debate? Are YOU the moderator? If so, why are you biased and why have you typed several pages insulting others? I understand that you started this thread, but if your position is Moderator why are you even replying to me?

This is yet another example of this concept that, apparently, is completely foreign to you. You act as though you've never seen a televised or otherwise structured debate before.

No, it is a concept that you have erroneously applied to our discussion.

It is dead because you will not shut up asking me to clarify it, instead of clarifying it yourself.

I only recall asking you to clarify your position once or twice. I did clarify it myself. Please read the first post.

I said the black community needed Social Conservatism...You need to understand this.

Useless info.

This is true. But i would remind you that there is a distinct difference between clarification and elaboration (and reiteration, even.)

I am going to quote your previous statement:

Drop all the politics and war and economics and all this other shit.

You do not believe this statement needs clarification. I did not ask you to elaborate I asked you to clarify and even provided examples on what you could have possibly meant by politics, war and economics.

And thus, the playing field is created. It is now up to the both of us to decide in what amounts Skepticism is encouraged and at what amount does it becomes destructive.

I have already stated when it should be encouraged and when it is destructive. Please refer to my two previous posts. If you are incapable of comprehending what has been stated please let me know.

I claim no such thing. What i do claim is the correlation that the more someone is outside of the society's boundaries (excessive promiscuity, drug use, et al), the more likely they are to distrust the government. Morality is of no consequence.

If they had morals or the family values you claim they should strive for, morality is of consequence. Do you not understand the lack of morality is often the cause of such destructive behavior? Excessive promiscuity and drug use IS immoral. If it you did not consider it immoral or imply it, why would you type?

and are content to spend all their money at the club, fornicating, having all kinds of sex in crazy porno positions

And

strong families; intelligent, college-educated parents; and bright young Black children that are ready to take on the world. We need less abortions and pre-marital sex, and more parental involvement and personal integrity.

You can say what leads to distrusting the government 24-7, but if you fail to identify the source of the distrust, you have no leg to stand on.

 

[HERESY]

I would also argue that the more goats one milks each day, the more likely they are to vote Republican. Would you disagree with THAT, or are you simply being combative because i used the hookers/drugs example and you like one and/or the other?

I would not agree or disagree with it because it is of no concern to me. Even if it were of concern, I would not voice my opinions or lean one-way or the other unless I had info to validate my position. That is different from you saying

(I say that without a survey-in-hand, but to me, it makes perfect sense and I hope it will to you as well.)

And proceeding to argue the position anyway.

Thus, before your analysis continues, we might both be considered loons. Surely the man with a delusional mind should do anything BUT trust himself 100%.

Nevertheless, trusting in the government 100% IS delusional so where does that place you?

First of all, I would remind you that I have been (and still am) poor, so you should watch your use of the word Never.

Previously you said:

I am living this American Dream, friend.

Living the american dream is not poverty. IMHO living the american dream is not working for money but having your money work for you. Living the american dream would also mean you have overcome numerous obstacles. You are STILL in school and have NOT over come all the obstacles you are faced with, tadou. Even when you DO climb the mountain, do you know what will happen? Someone else will have a better car, a better home, and a better-looking trophy.

Personal question: If the american economy were to collapse tommorow were, would it leave you and your american dream? Do you have ANY assets or tangibles such as gold or silver bullion?

Secondly, I would remind you of what i said earlier about a playing field being created. You say the one thing, I say the opposite and then we battle for the middle. This shit we are doing now is only the beginning in a series of debates and threads, if you are willing to make this all come to fruition.

Thanks for the offer but I have better things to do.

Apparently, you are making a concerted effort to not even attempt to meet me half-way or excercise logic. Fair enough. i will do your work for you.

Your response has nothing to do with my statement, which was in response to

and once they graduate college and find a good paying job, they can believe whatever the fuck they want.

I simply do not believe this is the case and call for each man to examine himself before he attempts to stand for what he feel is right.

When they are so closely correlated, it is hard to judge them separately as you are asking.

Therefore, you have no answer. I win this one.

There are mentors all around you no matter where you live.

If you grew up in a rough neighborhood or ghetto (and exhibit a certain mentality), your mentors are the pimps with all the women and dealers with big cars. The mother working 12 hours a day and going to school for nine is considered a dummy. The father who is doing right by his family and supporting his wife and kids by living to paycheck to paycheck is loser. The guy catching a bus to school when he can easily slang a zip is considered a fool. More and more youth have a corrupt mentality and do not look to be mentored by hard working law-abiding people. These people have nothing to show for, scrape, and crawl so why would they look to them?

The price of milk and crack on the sidewalk are not sufficient answers to the question asked. What is more of a stumbling block not having someone to mentor you and boost your self worth or placing trust in a government that continues to do a injustice to your people?

...With the help of the Government. To refuse that help, the man would have to be a fucktard and a halfwit.

Not everyone is in NEED of help from the government. You have many people who have been successful without the help of the government. The government is not taking your class nor passing exams. Keep that in mind.

Thus the reason for my sarcasm.

Which you should save for someone else.

I am a Black youth, so what else could you have possibly been talking about, besides that not all Blacks grow up the way I did, in a small town? Unless you were wasting my time with the "Everybody is different" argument, only later to argue, "Everybody should be equal".

You do not have to live in a major city to experience hardships. Try Camden NJ or Richmond CA. Once again, I see no logic in your statement.

I would love to see you make a 24-hours time-line of this, outlining all the horrible things the Government is responsible for doing in one given day.

I do not see how you would enjoy it considering you want to raise the youth to trust the government 100%.

No. This would be a reason not to trust loud-mouthed Opposition candidates.

...That are seeking re-elections or positions within the government you believe should be trusted 100%.

So you agree that the Government has made it possible for the vast majority of people to go to college, but because of outside factors, many are unaware.

Yes.

You blame this factor on The Government not having its own TV channel and T-Shirt line.

Refrain from insults or forming assessments based on speculation. You are being problematic and sowing seeds of discord when you do so. Real chop, man.

I blame this on local politicians, state senators, liberal activists, etc. having agendas and generally being stupid assholes.

I have done the same in debates with Nitro and 916. Please refer to past threads.

and that gov't funding ISN'T in danger of disappearing.

This is NOT true for california and certainly not true in states where the state now controls the school systems.

If A is a Dog and B is a mammal, then: If X = A, X = B.
YET...if X is a mammal, that DOES NOT mean X is a dog.

You took the result of what i said and tried to disprove it by reversing my example. It does not work that way.

Whether or not you or anyone else hates the government (B) is inconsequential. My statement was that the more people engage in sex and drug behavior (A), the more likely they are to hate the government (B). (Please don't make me waste my time explaining what "The more ___, The More ___" means.)

By your own admission, you are making this argument without any stats or information to validate your claim. Why continue it?

Methinks having an expensive drug habit necessitates living in shelters and not holding a job.

In addition, not having benefits and a home could have contributed to start of drug use.

Again, you say these things, and your examples are firmly rooted in what happens in the big city and in SPECIFIC neighborhoods; and NOT what happens in smaller cities in ALL neighborhoods.

The issues I listed may be found in smaller cities and all neighborhoods. Take a trip down south to mississipi or lousiana.

Again...the Root doesn't matter.

If the root is the problem how can you say, it does not matter?

Hypocrisy matters. Hypocrisy is something that manifests itself in people all over the place, in every social class, in equal numbers (if not MORE among the Rich!). Hypocrites cannot be expected to do much of anything, least of which is raising themselves out of poverty.

In addition, one must address the origins of hypocrisy and hypocrites before providing solutions.

We have been talking about the youth of America, period.

Not always and definitely not when you mention social conservatism and black youth fornicating.

I decided to give you a current example of people you regularly come into contact

I do not regularly come in contact with sixx or JoMoDo. I do not know them from a can of paint. I see them here on the siccness and rarely reply to them. I don't consider net personas as actual people I COME IN CONTACT WITH.

Your response being a question of no consequence

Actually, my response was I have no comment on Sixxness and JoMoDo and have no knowledge of them doing drugs.

You tell me. What do drug cartels have to do with people choosing both to do drugs and to hate the government (choosing, being the key word)?

They provide the substance and the government does business with them. Please see my previous posts.

Exactly. You are moving towards the argument that being Disciplined is the exception rather than the rule; and that the great majority of our youth today are undisciplined and have not had built into them the capacity to learn and utilize resources.

Being disciplined SHOULD be the rule and the majority of youth today are undisciplined and have not had built into them the capacity to learn and utilize resources. This is ESPECIALLY true for black youth in urban environments.

 

[HERESY]

You think one way. I think the other. I have witnessed mine in action. You have witnessed yours. The result of mine is prosperity and hope. The result of yours is hopelessness and sadness. You will not change my mind to a sad and hopeless one, and i will not change yours to a prosperous and hopeful one.

What results have you seen tadou? Living in mexico or being able to order snails in a foreign language is achievement? How can a person learn if they are not disciplined and don’t know how to learn? That is hopelessness and sadness, and a problem that needs to be addressed and rectified.

Sure it is, and sure it does. There is not much I can even say to things like this, friend

Another for me.

Or Neo-Sambo and the Democratic Party.

This may be true for what you have experienced, but it is not the case for me. The rest of the subject matter does not require a statement from me.

Friend, trusting in the Government 100% makes about as much sense as "Giving 100%!" on a job or what have you. Both are impossible. It is the ideal that matters.

Trusting the government 100% were YOUR words, but now that you see how insane it is, you imply "it’s the thought that counts.” If you do not believe it, do not type it and attempt to use it to validate your position.

It is not always a cycle, friend. Some people are just plain fucking assholes. It's just like when your parents are the nicest people in the world, and yet, your brother still fucked with you and beat you up when you were young. Thats not a cycle. Thats an asshole.

This has nothing to do with your statement that

They have been subconsciously preparing these people that they are berating and insulting to hate the government the same way they do.

If they are subconsciously doing it and passing it on, it IS a cycle and crushes your idea that the morally corrupt are more prone to hating the government. Why not just say they hate the government because they are assholes?

The same happens when people get older, if they've grown up getting their way and never getting in trouble. They're going to fuck with anyone and everyone until they finally get bitch-slapped; and even then, they might STILL convince themselves it was only a fluke, and continue in their ways.

Regardless of what they believe, once they have been bitch -slapped the cycle has been broken.

And I am telling you right now, that in middle-America, it is the exact opposite. People know perfectly well how to learn, they just don't want to, because it's "cool" to hate the government, to neglect their studies, to go out every week, to buy new jordans, to make 3-4 token minority friends, and all this other shit. For fucks sake, even people IN college do all of the above except for the neglect college part! You will see them as you continue!

They do not WANT to learn because they lack DISCIPLINE. If they had discipline, they would not neglect studies, would want to learn, would not go out every week, would not be concerned with the latest fashions, and would not place emphasis on friends. They would have the I HAVE TO GET *MINE* mentality.

Agreed. Regardless of the functionality of the System or the Greatness of the Government, ANY ONE OF US could find ourselves eating out of garbage cans for WHATEVER Non-Systematic, Non-Government-Faulted reason. Excellent point.

You still don't get it...

The user is extremely relevant. Have you forgotten where you even BEGAN with your example? If you don't want users to be included, then you ought not mention people who hold degrees and "barely eat each month".

Not all of these people are users. They could have found themselves in debt paying for student loans and eventually were tossed to the sidewalk. Once again, users have no relevancy in our topic.

Doing so, and refusing to admit drug abusers into the equasion, you might as well be saying people with degrees are idiots because they aren't guranteed anything, but if you sell drugs you ARE guaranteed a good living.

The users are relevant IF they started out as DEALERS. I asked you about DEALERS and you refused to elaborate. No problem.

The first, I would tell that they are lucky to witness such a marvelous spectacle. Because most drug users die or end up in jail or have some other unfortunate consequence happen; they don't usually "eat well".

How is this a marvelous spectacle when it has destroyed many black families and led to a large population of black males incarcerated or six feet deep?

Do you know anyone who has grown up in a drug environment?

The second, I wouldn't know. I know several people who have, technically, been "in and out of the system", but every single one of them were capable of doing better. They just chose not to and to blame their faults on someone or something else.

So you would offer no advice or moral support? Thanks for taking the bait.

No shit. Thus the reason it is called an idiom.

Jargon.

 

[HERESY]

I will let you have the last word, but I am done with this thread. ENJOY LIFE.