Does anyone disbelieve in God but believe in the Spiritual Realm?

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May 13, 2002
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#41
^^Urban myth or whatever. I'm sure we've all heard the "we only use [insert random number] percentage of our brains" countless times before. It's funny how people accept things as fact simply because they've heard it time and time again.

Claim: We use only ten percent of our brains.

Status: False.

Origins: Someone
has taken most of your brain away and you probably didn't even know it. Well, not taken your brain away, exactly, but decided that you don't use it. It's the old myth heard time and again about how people use only ten percent of their brains. While for the people who repeat that myth, it's probably true, the rest of us happily use all of our brains.

The Myth and the Media

That tired Ten-Percent claim pops up all the time. In 1998, national magazine ads for U.S. Satellite Broadcasting showed a drawing of a brain. Under it was the caption, "You only use 11 percent of its potential." Well, they're a little closer than the ten-percent figure, but still off by about 89 percent. In July 1998, ABC television ran promotional spots for The Secret Lives of Men, one of their offerings for the fall season's lineup. The spot featured a full-screen blurb that read, "Men only use ten percent of their brains."

One reason this myth has endured is that it has been adopted by psychics and other paranormal pushers to explain psychic powers. On more than one occasion I've heard psychics tell their audiences, "We only use ten percent of our minds. If scientists don't know what we do with the other ninety percent, it must be used for psychic powers!" In Reason To Believe: A Practical Guide to Psychic Phenomena, author Michael Clark mentions a man named Craig Karges. Karges charges a lot of money for his "Intuitive Edge" program, designed to develop natural psychic abilities. Clark quotes Karges as saying: "We normally use only 10 to 20 percent of our minds. Think how different your life would be if you could utilize that other 80 to 90 percent known as the subconscious mind."

This was also the reason that Caroline Myss gave for her alleged intuitive powers on a segment of Eye to Eye with Bryant Gumbel, which aired in July of 1998. Myss, who has written books on unleashing "intuitive powers," said that everyone has intuitive gifts, and lamented that we use so little of the mind's potential. To make matters worse, just the week before, on the very same program, correct information was presented about the myth. In a bumper spot between the program and commercials, a quick quiz flashed onscreen: What percentage of the brain is used? The multiple-choice answers ranged from 10 percent to 100 percent. The correct answer appeared, which I was glad to see. But if the producers knew that what one of their interviewees said is clearly and demonstrably inaccurate, why did they let it air? Does the right brain not know what the left brain is doing? Perhaps the Myss interview was a repeat, in which case the producers presumably checked her facts after it aired and felt some responsibility to correct the error in the following week's broadcast. Or possibly the broadcasts aired in sequence and the producers simply did not care and broadcast Myss and her misinformation anyway.

Even Uri Geller, who has made a career out of trying to convince people he can bend metal with his mind, trots out this little gem. This claim appears in his book Uri Geller's Mind-Power Book in the introduction: "Our minds are capable of remarkable, incredible feats, yet we don't use them to their full capacity. In fact, most of us only use about 10 per cent of our brains, if that. The other 90 per cent is full of untapped potential and undiscovered abilities, which means our minds are only operating in a very limited way instead of at full stretch. I believe that we once had full power over our minds. We had to, in order to survive, but as our world has become more sophisticated and complex we have forgotten many of the abilities we once had" (italicized phrases emphasized in original).

Evidence Against the Ten-Percent Myth

The argument that psychic powers come from the unused majority of the brain is based on the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance. In this fallacy, lack of proof for a position (or simply lack of information) is used to try to support a particular claim. Even if it were true that the vast majority of the human mind is unused (which it clearly is not), that fact in no way implies that any extra capacity could somehow give people paranormal powers. This fallacy pops up all the time in paranormal claims, and is especially prevalent among UFO proponents. For example: Two people see a strange light in the sky. The first, a UFO believer, says, "See there! Can you explain that?" The skeptic replies that no, he can't. The UFO believer is gleeful. "Ha! You don't know what it is, so it must be aliens!" he says, arguing from ignorance.

What follows are two of the reasons that the Ten-Percent story is suspect. (For a much more thorough and detailed analysis of the subject, see Barry Beyerstein's chapter in the 1999 book Mind Myths: Exploring Everyday Mysteries of the Mind.)

1) Brain imaging research techniques such as PET scans (positron emission tomography) and fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) clearly show that the vast majority of the brain does not lie fallow. Indeed, although certain minor functions may use only a small part of the brain at one time, any sufficiently complex set of activities or thought patterns will indeed use many parts of the brain. Just as people don't use all of their muscle groups at one time, they also don't use all of their brain at once. For any given activity, such as eating, watching television, making love, or reading, you may use a few specific parts of your brain. Over the course of a whole day, however, just about all of the brain is used at one time or another.

2) The myth presupposes an extreme localization of functions in the brain. If the "used" or "necessary" parts of the brain were scattered all around the organ, that would imply that much of the brain is in fact necessary. But the myth implies that the "used" part of the brain is a discrete area, and the "unused" part is like an appendix or tonsil, taking up space but essentially unnecessary. But if all those parts of the brain are unused, removal or damage to the "unused" part of the brain should be minor or unnoticed. Yet people who have suffered head trauma, a stroke, or other brain injury are frequently severely impaired. Have you ever heard a doctor say, ". . . But luckily when that bullet entered his skull, it only damaged the 90 percent of his brain he didn't use"? Of course not.

Variants of the Ten-Percent Myth

The myth is not simply a static, misunderstood factoid. It has several forms, and this adaptability gives it a shelf life longer than lacquered Spam. In the basic form, the myth claims that years ago a scientist discovered that we indeed did use only ten percent of our brains. Another variant is that only ten percent of the brain had been mapped, and this in turn became misunderstood as ten percent used. A third variant was described earlier by Craig Karges. This view is that the brain is somehow divided neatly into two parts: the conscious mind which is used ten to twenty percent of the time (presumably at capacity); and the subconscious mind, where the remaining eighty to ninety percent of the brain is unused. This description betrays a profound misunderstanding of brain function research.

Part of the reason for the long life of the myth is that if one variant can be proven incorrect, the person who held the belief can simply shift the reason for his belief to another basis, while the belief itself stays intact. So, for example, if a person is shown that PET scans depict activity throughout the entire brain, he can still claim that, well, the ninety percent figure really referred to the subconscious mind, and therefore the Ten-Percent figure is still basically correct.

Regardless of the exact version heard, the myth is spread and repeated, by both the well-meaning and the deliberately deceptive. The belief that remains, then, is what Robert J. Samuelson termed a "psycho-fact, [a] belief that, though not supported by hard evidence, is taken as real because its constant repetition changes the way we experience life." People who don't know any better will repeat it over and over, until, like the admonition against swimming right after you eat, the claim is widely believed. ("Triumph of the Psycho-Fact," Newsweek, 9 May 1994.)

The origins of the myth are not at all clear. Beyerstein, of the Brain Behaviour Laboratory at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, has traced it back to at least the early part of the century. A 1998 column in New Scientist magazine also suggested various roots, including Albert Einstein and Dale Carnegie ("Brain Drain"). It likely has a number of sources, principally misunderstood or misinterpreted legitimate scientific findings as well as self-help gurus.

The most powerful lure of the myth is probably the idea that we might develop psychic abilities, or at least gain a leg up on the competition by improving our memory or concentration. All this is available for the asking, the ads say, if we just tapped into our most incredible of organs, the brain. It is past time to put this myth to rest, although if it has survived at least a century so far, it will surely live on into the new millennium. Perhaps the best way to combat this chestnut is to reply to the speaker, when the myth is mentioned, "Oh? What part don't you use?"

Acknowledgments:

I am indebted to Dr. Barry Beyerstein for providing research help and suggestions.

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm
 

Hemp

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Sep 5, 2005
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#42
The Red Sin said:
With the 4 or so percent we use of our brain, where does the other 90+ percent of the unused parts of our brain do?
stick to christianity.
dont want u also fuckin up spirituality for us.



@ the question posted,
like heresy said, not all who are spiritual believe in a God.
This includes those such as the people who believe in the mind.

now me personally, i cannot see how one believes in spirituality and all that comes with it but deny an existence of a creator.
but i guess that comes down to if the person accepts ID theory or not, at least for me.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#43
HERESY said:
This is incorrect. A person can believe in a spiritual world where no gods or god exists. I believe in another thread you said you only speak on things where you have expertise in. With that being said, can you explain animism and religions involving ancestor worship, and why they may have a spiritucal realm but no god or gods?
according to your precious bible animists are wrong

=> they are out of the discussion for me

stop arguing for the sake of arguing, it is clear what I want to say - evolution is incompatible with the supernatural and we all know evolution is a fact
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#44
according to your precious bible animists are wrong
But the bible doesn't really have anything to do with this.

=> they are out of the discussion for me
Why? The topic is "Does anyone disbelieve in God but believe in the Spiritual Realm". You say it is logically impossible to do so, but not only did I say you were incorrect, I provided you with proof. You can't toss those who follow animism out of the equation because their beliefs don't coincide with the bible. Why? Because the bible is not the standard we are using in this thread. :)

stop arguing for the sake of arguing, it is clear what I want to say - evolution is incompatible with the supernatural and we all know evolution is a fact
No, I am not arguing just for the sake of arguing, you are NOT clear in the thoughts you wish to convey, and the belief that evolution is incompatible with the supernatural and that evolution is a fact is still up for debate--which is why you have people fighting over I.D. in schools.
 

ThaG

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Jun 30, 2005
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#45
people would have never been fighting over ID in schools if this was a normal country

but it's not, it is USA, so all kinds of ridiculous things are possible...

including having 94% of the population being believers....
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#46
people would have never been fighting over ID in schools if this was a normal country
What is a "normal" country?

but it's not, it is USA, so all kinds of ridiculous things are possible...
Ridiculous things are not exclusive to america.

including having 94% of the population being believers....
Matter of opinion. I would say there are more ridiculous things such as the lack of a nationwide health care system and the fact that the gap between rich and poor is widening.
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#47
FunK-3-FivE said:
Haha what?
Yeah maybe its like 70% physiological and 30% supernatural...
Or wait maybe 40% physiological and 60% supernatural...
Or do you think it's 50/50?

I think you fail to realize with Physiological effects, were looking at strictly physical and tangible things.
^^ That's my point, you're looking at strictly physical and tangible things, when you simply cannot observe the intangible things that could also be happening. It would be a mistake to say that although yes, this synapse fired, and this alkaloid was released from the brain at this time, so that's all that happened. So much more could have happened but since it is not objectively observable, we write it off.

I know that there are different dimensions, different planes of existence. Since our sensory faculties can only observe phenomena in our immediate plane of existence, science says that that is the only plane that exists. If and when scientific tools, or our own limited perception advances enough to detect energy in other planes of existence, it will be accepted.

Has anyone done any research into subliminal learning? Author Eldon Taylor, Ph.D. writes about an experiment he conducted, in a lecture about subliminal communication, he used an overhead projector and transparencies for visual support. He would also use an additional slide projector with a smaller wattage bulb, presenting subliminally (underneath the overheads brighter light) a three digit number. the slide of the number was not consciously visible. After the audience had responded to a selection test of 5 alternative 3 digit numbers in multiple choice format, correct number selection rate was over 70 percent (chance alone would be 1 in 5, 20 percent.),

I've also read about subliminal tapes or messages in which the desired message is embedded in static or noise so that it is unable to discern the original message with the conscious mind. The unconscious mind however hears everything and later splits all the layers separately and is able to pick out the original message as it's own layer.

The point is that we are exposed to LOTS of stimuli. We have to shut out so much information just to survive, otherwise we would be overwhelmed with the immense barrage of information, and would go crazy. So our conscious mind is only able to perceive a portion of the stimuli that we experience. What else is going on that is imperceptible to us?

ThaG said:
so, if you claim there is such a thing as soul and out-of-body experiences or anything else non-material in us, you have to explain how it appeared in evolution and you can't do that because evolution is entirely based on chnages in the physical and functional properties of organisms
From the perspective of evolution, what if organisms did evolve spirituality based on a simple survival impulse. A heightened sense of perception is beneficial to know if a predator is nearby even if it is unheard and unseen. A heightened sense of perception is beneficial to make you "care" about your community and your offspring in order to preserve the species. Navigation in the spiritual realm via dreaming is beneficial to sort out the barrage of stimuli we packed into our subconscious in our waking state.

Just a thought, entertain it.



P.S. I still can't understand the part in scientific theory that says since it is not observable, we KNOW it doesn't exist. I think science would advance by remaining critical, but avoiding the dogmatic rigidity.
 
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#48
This topic was going all ovdr the place. I originally wanted to see if any of the athiests also believe in a spiritual realm. But it seems like none of them do. Question answered.
 
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#53
Hypnagogia (also spelled hypnogogia) are the experiences a person can go through in the hypnagogic (or hypnogogic) state, the period of falling asleep. Hypnopompia are the experiences a person may go through in the hypnopompic state, the period of waking up. The term hypnagogia often encompasses hypnopompia as well. Hypnagogic sensations collectively describe the vivid dream-like auditory, visual, or tactile sensations that can be experienced in a hypnagogic or hypnopompic state. These sensations can be accompanied by sleep paralysis, the sensation that the body is temporarily paralyzed after waking or before falling asleep.

The term “hypnagogic” is derived from the French word hypnagogique, coined by the 19th century French psychologist Louis Ferdinand Alfred Maury from the Greek words hupnos, meaning sleep, and agogos, meaning leading. Frederic William Henry Myers coined the complementary term hypnopompic, from hupnos and pompe, meaning sending away.
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[edit] Hypnagogic sensations

Hypnagogic sensations are vivid dream-like experiences that occur as one is falling asleep or waking up. Accompanying sleep paralysis can cause the sensations to be more frightening. The features of these sensations generally vary by individual, but some are more common to the experience than others:

Most common

* Vividness
* Falling sensation
* Fear

Common

* Sensing a "presence" (often malevolent)
* Pressure/weight on body (especially the chest or back).
* A sensation of not being able to breathe
* Sense of impending doom/death

Fairly common

* Auditory sensations (often footsteps or indistinct voices, or pulsing noises). Auditory sensations which are described as noise instead of sensations of distinct or comprehensible sounds, are often described to be similar to auditory sensations caused by nitrous oxide by persons who have experienced both.
* Visual sensations such as lights, people or shadows moving around the room

Less common

* Floating sensations (often described as out-of-body experiences)
* Seamless transition into fully immersive lucid dreaming, also associated with out-of-body experiences
* Tactile sensations (such as a hand touching or grabbing)

Rare

* Vibration
* Involuntary movements (sometimes the feeling of sliding off the bed or even up walls).
* The feeling of being pulled in different directions

During the hypnagogic state, an individual may appear to be fully awake, but has brain waves indicating that the individual is technically sleeping. Also, the individual may be completely aware of their state, which enables lucid dreamers to enter the dream state consciously directly from the waking state (see wake-initiated lucid dream technique). Many artists, musicians, architects, engineers, and others demanding creativity to be successful have benefited from hypnagogia, where the mind can be free and open to creative and new ideas.[citation needed]

An experience of the hypnagogic state is not an uncommon occurrence with 30 to 40 percent of people experiencing it at least once in their lives.[citation needed] However, it could be a sign of a sleep disorder, such as narcolepsy and insomnia, or associated with temporal lobe epilepsy.

The hypnagogic state can be accompanied by or associated with anomalous phenomena such as alien abduction, extra-sensory perception, telepathy, apparitions, or prophetic or crisis visions. This conduciveness to anomalous phenomena can be correlated with the initial increase of alpha and the later increase of theta brainwaves.
 

Hemp

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Sep 5, 2005
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#54
nhojsmith said:
what if someone believes in evolution in the purest sense, ie complex coming from simple. what i mean is, hypothetically, humans can tap into the spiritual realm (our mind, sefl perceptioon, whatever) because we are the most advanced as we know it, our "creator" was chance encounters of organic compounds and amino acids etc, things that dont even have a conciousness. Theoretically, my most recent "creator" were sperm and egg, hardly all powerful and all knowing, see what im sayin?

I dont necessarily believe this, but this is the first thing i thought of when you said you "cannot see".

i did say "it comes down to who accepts intelligent design, and who doesnt".
because to me, evolution is real and cannot exist wihtout an intelligence of some sort.


scientists and people from this forum always claim that "the weak died off"
implying that the flaw was lethal.
not all flaws are deadly, correct?
so why are these creations including humans, a fly catcher plant, or any other complex perfected "beings" without harmless flaws such as a dead body part such as a hand just stickin out?
also, pay attention to the detailing such as thorns on a plant seem to be especially made for a specific reason that only aware beings are conscious of, and its use.

if the chaos theory is correct, then the chance of a thorn comming out and not an unlimited ammount of things is 0%.
there IS a guide behind the evolution process.
i didnt mean to make this a long reply, u dont have to reply to all of it.
 

TROLL

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#56
try to follow me on this one...

I believe 'god' is a structure of cycles that consist's in our daily lives.. god is 'eternal' in the sense that, nothing is gonna stop the natural process that we all experience.. birth/conception, growth, death... you can find 'god' in the treez, the animals, the weather etc.. things such as plastics and steelz, go through the growth/decay process, but since they are not a living consciousness, are exempt from the birth/death cycle.. in this case, replace birth/death with creation/destruction, which are basically the same thingz, just diffrent descriptions..

i believe 'heaven' is a frequency our consiousness reaches after it trancends the energies that are emitted from the earth.. the spritual realm is a parallel state of existence that consists of channels and streams of ethereal mass that connects the memories of someone who has died, being replayed in friends and families brainwaves to the consciousness of their deceased loved ones.. the stronger and more prevalent the memories of someone who has died, the more able they are to commune indirectly with the person who is replaying those memories of them because those channels, when strong enough, act as a gateway to the person they are remembering.. the same goes for inanimate objects in conjunction with the person who has passed.(ghosts) when those memories start fading, the more their consiousness is decsending to the harmonious frequency of unfettered bliss..'heaven'..

my bad for any typos, i had to rush this one cuz im at werk..
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#59
taetae said:
Peep these references. the first is from the skeptics dictionary. It doesn't seem to promote a scientific explanation. http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P2.html

Some "scientific" info on DMT
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_journal2.shtml
it doesn't seem to promotes scientific explnation?????????????

REM is thought to be generated in the lateral portions of the nucleus reticularis pontis oralis (RPO) immediately ventral to the locus ceruleus in the pontine reticular formation. The neurotransmitters in this region have not been clearly determined, but are neither cholinergic nor monoaminergic. The RPO receives projections from cholinergic regions in the laterodorsal tegmental nucleus (LDT) and the pedunculopontine tegmental nucleus (PPT) as well as from ventromedial portions of the medulla. The RPO, LDT, and PPT are collectively thought to be part of the REM-on neural population (Steriade & McCarley, 1990). These populations are hypothesized to interact with REM-off noradrenergic neurons in the locus ceruleus and seratonergic neurons in the raphe system. These latter populations are most active during waking and least active during REM. Interactions between the REM-on and REM-off populations are thought to control REM onset and offset (Steriade & McCarley, 1990).
SP may reflect an anomaly of the functioning of the monoaminergic systems and/or their inhibition of the REM-on cholinergic system. Experimental and clinical dissociations have been demonstrated among major components of REM: namely, PGO activity, atonia, and EEG desynchronization (Hishikawa & Shimizu, 1994). Hishikawa & Shimizu speculate that SP may be produced by hyperactivation of the Sleep-on populations or, they deem more likely, hypoactivation of the Sleep-off populations. That SP may be alleviated by serotonin and adrenergic reuptake inhibitors is taken to be consistent with this hypothesis. Also involved may be suprapontine systems involving the reticular system, including the hippocampus and amygdala.

REM SP with HHEs differs from REM dreams in that during SP there is little or no blocking of exteroceptive stimulation and there is no loss of waking consciousness. SP with HHEs differs from dream experience in that the sensory cortex may be receiving both externally and internally generated information. The peculiarity of the HHEs in SP may, in part, be a result of the brain's attempts to integrate endogenous cortical arousal originating in the pons with normal sensory input. A similar peculiarity may exist for motor pattern arousal during SP. McCarley and Hobson argue that, during dream generation by internal stimulation of motor programs, we interpret the activity of the pattern generators and their corollary discharge as movement. The lack of peripheral feedback, though not normally necessary for effective control, may contribute to a sense of unreality to the apparent movement and hence to the "bizarreness" of dreams. Pontine activation of motor patterns during SP appears to be less common in SP than in dreams, if subjective reports of illusory movement are to be taken as evidence. Volitional attempts at movement during SP are common, however, and the absence of feedback is most often, though not always, experienced as paralysis rather than illusory movement. Thus it appears that, during SP, the frontal cortex is more sensitive to the absence of feedback than during dreaming. When motor programs
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#60
Read this again.

Our research has led us to conclude that hallucination is probably not too strong a term for the experiences associated with sleep paralysis. We take our definition of hallucination from Slade & Bentall (1988). A hallucination is an experience of perception in the absence of an appropriate stimulus, but which has the impact of a conventional perception and is not under the control of the experient. A hallucination has the quality of being a sensation related to external event rather than merely a product of the imagination. It does not seem to be merely an idea. It has the quality of objectivity, that is, something beyond the willing and wishing of the experient. The "object" of the hallucination" is taken to exist independently of the will of the experient. The experience is, in principle, a publicly available phenomenon. The hallucinator should also believe that any appropriately situated person should be able to confirm these experiences. These qualities of sensation, objectivity, existence, and independence, are among the defining qualities of hallucinations (Aggernaes, 1972).

There are probably several degrees of a hallucinatory experience, as distinct from illusions and normal or conventional sensations. A "full-blown" hallucination seems like a real experience and is believed to be a real experience. One might say the individual is both hallucinating and is deluded by the hallucination in to accepting it as a real experience. A hallucination proper may be said to have occurred if the sensation seems quite authentic even if the experient judges the experience to be, for some reason, suspect. It seems re�����������������������������������������������������������������������������al but there is also something counterfeit about the experience. A pseudo-hallucination also has this counterfeit quality but it also lacks the fullness of a conventional sensation. It has an ethereal, "as-if" quality, lacking the richness of a true sensation. An illusion is simply a misinterpretation of a conventional stimulus.
Sleep paralysis related experiences appear to range from what might be best termed fleeting illusions to true hallucinations. The distinction between illusions and hallucinations is one of long standing harking back at least to Esquirol (1832). Most of the experiences associated with sleep paralysis appear to be hallucinations and quasi-hallucinations (e.g., Slade & Bentall, 1988). People experiencing HHEs are sometimes convinced of their reality but are often able to take a more critical sense, at the same time. This appears to be more common after people have read something about SP and HHEs and come to believe that the experiences are of a hallucinatory nature. Often however, there is no loss of intensity or vividness of the experience. The knowledge or belief that the experience is illusory reduces, for some, the terror of the experiences but appears to have relatively little impact on the apparent reality of the experiences. The quasi-hallucinatory HHEs, though frequently vivid, often have an ethereal and insubstantial quality. These quasi-hallucinations probably best describe the large majority of sleep paralysis and range from vaguely disturbing to extremely terrifying. They usually also motivate a least some search for meaning. The HHEs of sleep paralysis would include misinterpretations of shadows and indistinct objects in a dark room. Finally there may be some people who experience full-blown hallucinations during sleep paralysis in which they not only have vivid and complex imaginative experiences but are also convinced that these experiences have objective external sources. Such people are unlikely to describe their experience as one of sleep paralysis but perhaps as one of demon possession or alien abduction.

*****************************************************
There are at least two major traditional hypotheses concerning the connection between neurophysiological events and visual imagery in dreams. The visual imagery of dreaming may arise either from the direct stimulation of visual areas of the cortex during the PGO spike, in which case the rapid eye movements may reflect attempts to scan the images (Ladd, 1892; Roffwarg, Dement, & Muzio, 1962), or conversely, the mages may be produced by the oculomotor impulses in response to direct stimulation from the gigantocellular pontine reticular field (Hobson & McCarley, 1977; McCarley & Hobson, 1979).


Sorry, ThaG, what was a hypothesis again? I forgot.

This is only ONE of many different types of supernatural experiences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience