Exactly, it's Mac's mythical list and that's where I place him. If he beats Cotto, he might jump a spot. It's far from absurd since any one of those fighters in the top list could be #1 at any given time. We all got opinions and you know the saying about opinions, but in the end we're all entitled to em.
Boxing pound 4 pound top 10
- Thread starter 2-0-Sixx
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So what makes you think that Mayweather jumps directly back into the #1 spot after beating the LIGHTWEIGHT champion in a WELTERWEIGHT fight?
After 2 years of inactivity, then coming back to defeat a handpicked opponent IMO does not warrant taking back the #1 spot.
His victory was impressive, but who he got it over wasn't. Marquez is a great fighter, but obviously would've been drubbed by even the 10th best welterweight.
The fact of the matter is that Pacquiao has been fighting more frequently, and against better opposition, and he's moving up in weight fighting much bigger and stronger men doing so.
Its obvious you don't like Manny, c'mon man. You're bashing him every chance you get on here.
@ MOREBASS... If you consider keeping it real bashing Pacman, then I'll take that. I've never bashed Pacman (I thought he won the first Marquez fight and have been a fan since he destroyed Barerra with lesser skill) or said anything derogatory about him. Find one post where I call him out his name or questioned his heart or will as a fighter. When you find it let me know. I just call it like I see it, and try to keep it fair across the board. Pacman is a beast at the lower weights, but don't get me started on hand picked opponents, because that's exactly what Cotto is supposed to be. Pac had Mosely basically dying to take the fight and he would have taken less money, but he wouldn't sign for it because his people know it would be career suicide, especially since Mosely knocked off Margarito in the way he did. He wanted Cotto due to how bad Cotto has looked in previous fights. And remember Marquez called Mayweather out, of course he jumped at the fight, why not? if you can't get who they consider number 1, then destroy number 2 and corner number 1 in.
Ranking him 4 in the world really aint a bad rating. I could see if I left him out altogether, cause that would be hating. Some of these fighters like Mosely are clearly being ducked and that is the only reason they are not consistent and that is wrong in my eyes. To me the most avoided fighters should be very highly ranked and that's B. Hop, Mosely, Williams and Clottey (2 of which many wish were washed up by now). I aint gonna penalize them because they can't get big money fights. Pacman is a great fighter in my eyes, sitting at number 4 can't be a bad thing.
Ranking him 4 in the world really aint a bad rating. I could see if I left him out altogether, cause that would be hating. Some of these fighters like Mosely are clearly being ducked and that is the only reason they are not consistent and that is wrong in my eyes. To me the most avoided fighters should be very highly ranked and that's B. Hop, Mosely, Williams and Clottey (2 of which many wish were washed up by now). I aint gonna penalize them because they can't get big money fights. Pacman is a great fighter in my eyes, sitting at number 4 can't be a bad thing.
I hear you man, but you cannot sit there and say that Manny & co. have hand picked his opponents. In De La Hoya, he took a challenge that probably 90% of the media, boxing experts, and boxing fans thought that he was going to get brutally KO'd in.
The fact that he proved everyone wrong, and how convincingly did it, is in my opinion the reason why people just can't accept the fact that it was his speed that was the difference maker in that fight and not De La Hoya's weight cut and age. We all knew the stipulations before hand, and every thought that despite the fact that his better days were past him, and that he had to cut an additional 3 pounds from his last fight, that Oscar would still be too much for the much smaller fighter.
Then, he goes and fights Ricky Hatton in his division, a division where he had reigned supreme for 4 years prior, going undefeated in. He goes out and anhialates Ricky in less than 6 minutes.
Now, he's taking on Miguel Cotto, who is arguably the best welterweight in the world, or at worst the man who beat the best welterweight in the world. The fight with Cotto was chosen over the Mosley fight for two reasons: the first is that head to head, Cotto already holds a victory over Mosley; and the second, is that Cotto fights for Top Rank, obviously keeping all of the revenue in house and the ease of making the fight for Arum was the dealbreaker.
All very tough fights for Manny, with all of his opponents being much bigger and stronger.
The fact that he proved everyone wrong, and how convincingly did it, is in my opinion the reason why people just can't accept the fact that it was his speed that was the difference maker in that fight and not De La Hoya's weight cut and age. We all knew the stipulations before hand, and every thought that despite the fact that his better days were past him, and that he had to cut an additional 3 pounds from his last fight, that Oscar would still be too much for the much smaller fighter.
Then, he goes and fights Ricky Hatton in his division, a division where he had reigned supreme for 4 years prior, going undefeated in. He goes out and anhialates Ricky in less than 6 minutes.
Now, he's taking on Miguel Cotto, who is arguably the best welterweight in the world, or at worst the man who beat the best welterweight in the world. The fight with Cotto was chosen over the Mosley fight for two reasons: the first is that head to head, Cotto already holds a victory over Mosley; and the second, is that Cotto fights for Top Rank, obviously keeping all of the revenue in house and the ease of making the fight for Arum was the dealbreaker.
All very tough fights for Manny, with all of his opponents being much bigger and stronger.
The fight with DLH was a calculated risk my friend, one in which the factors had to take away DLH's strengths to make it a worthwhile fight and in the end it turned out to be a joke. The Hatton fight showed Hatton was shot just as Mayweather had previously said. Manny is a warrior, no doubt. So is Mayweather.
You know, it was only a joke because of the outcome. No one thought that Manny had a chance, and even further almost no one predicted that he was be totally dominated like he was.
Hindsight is 20/20, but we can dig up the threads on this very board, and the general consensus was that it was a complete mismatch in Oscar's favor, even at 147.
Hatton shot?
That's a stretch considering he dominated a very game Malignaggi in his previous fight. It was easily his best performance since his signature with against Tszyu (sp?)
No doubt these guys are all warriors, but Manny's performances recently leave little doubt who the best fighter in boxing is. That's all I'm saying, though I do understand these are all subjective.
Hindsight is 20/20, but we can dig up the threads on this very board, and the general consensus was that it was a complete mismatch in Oscar's favor, even at 147.
Hatton shot?
That's a stretch considering he dominated a very game Malignaggi in his previous fight. It was easily his best performance since his signature with against Tszyu (sp?)
No doubt these guys are all warriors, but Manny's performances recently leave little doubt who the best fighter in boxing is. That's all I'm saying, though I do understand these are all subjective.
Mayweather should be number one pound for pound because he's undefeated and he beat the crap out of Marquez (who gave PacMan lots of trouble) and plus he took on a "heavier" Oscar De La Hoya. Mayweather beat an undefeated Ricky Hatton too.
Mayweather is pound for pound number 1 in the world until he gets beat and that's "if" he gets beat.
Mayweather is pound for pound number 1 in the world until he gets beat and that's "if" he gets beat.
It includes heavies. There are a ton of P4P lists. Boxrec has both Klitchkos in the top 10 and some other ones put them down around 15 or so. Rings includes heavies as well, it says "Pound For Pound - All Weights" on their web site.
Dawson or Williams could easily take Donaire, Vazquez or R Marquez' spot.
You just hate all Euro fighters. A year ago you would have flipped out about Calzaghe being top 3. Admit it, you hate European fighters! Haha.
Dawson or Williams could easily take Donaire, Vazquez or R Marquez' spot.
You just hate all Euro fighters. A year ago you would have flipped out about Calzaghe being top 3. Admit it, you hate European fighters! Haha.
boxrec don't count for anything, no one takes their p4p rankings seriously since they just use some computer program. They have hopkins #1 and Hozumi Hasegawa #6. (Hopkins is by far my favorite fighter and even I don't think he should be #1).
Anyways, I've always excluded heavies from p4p since the term was invented to judge the smaller guys skills. Some people include heavies, some people don't. Besides why would you want Wlad in there anyways?!? How can you tell if he's any good if the HW division is a joke?
That's what I said, I actually have Williams listed as my #6.
Nah, I'm fan of David Haye and I like Arthur Abraham, carl froch is growing on me. Plus I do like a number of Russian and ex-soviet fighters.
Calzaghe is just a fag though!
Anyways, I've always excluded heavies from p4p since the term was invented to judge the smaller guys skills. Some people include heavies, some people don't. Besides why would you want Wlad in there anyways?!? How can you tell if he's any good if the HW division is a joke?
That's what I said, I actually have Williams listed as my #6.
Nah, I'm fan of David Haye and I like Arthur Abraham, carl froch is growing on me. Plus I do like a number of Russian and ex-soviet fighters.
Calzaghe is just a fag though!
Had DLH won the fight it would have been even more of a joke and a circus. I'm discrediting that fight because it should have never happened in the first place. You strip any fighter down from a weight he has carried for years and he will not be the same fighter. If Pac beats Cotto and I doubt he will unless Cotto forgets how to box overnight, then I'll give him props.
@206 I disagree with you on that. Anytime a fighter has inherited a belt without beating the true champ, we call them a paper champ. Well if that's the case, Pacman is a paper p4p, where as Mayweather earned his and the only way to take it away is to beat the man. He's back now and I don't even think he needs to fight Pac to regain his position. If he goes on to beat Mosely, he should regain it. If he beats a few others like Cotto or Clottey, who pose a real threat, he regains it no matter what Pac does. Pac don't want that fight. If he loses to Cotto he'll be looking to fight Mayweather, but if he wins, he'll never fight him.
@206 I disagree with you on that. Anytime a fighter has inherited a belt without beating the true champ, we call them a paper champ. Well if that's the case, Pacman is a paper p4p, where as Mayweather earned his and the only way to take it away is to beat the man. He's back now and I don't even think he needs to fight Pac to regain his position. If he goes on to beat Mosely, he should regain it. If he beats a few others like Cotto or Clottey, who pose a real threat, he regains it no matter what Pac does. Pac don't want that fight. If he loses to Cotto he'll be looking to fight Mayweather, but if he wins, he'll never fight him.
Pound 4 pound isn't a title though.
Roy Jones was pound 4 pound #1. He gets KTFO, the #2 guy beomes the top man (and he earned that right despite not actually beating Jones). Was bernard hopkins a paper champ? Fuck no, his resume speaked for itself.
Hopkins was p4p #1, he loses to Taylor, Mayweather becomes #1 (and he also earned that despite not actually fighting bernard, obviously). So in your logic Mayweather was paper champ? Obviously not.
Mayweather retires, #2 pacquiao moves up to #1 (and he earned that right based on his resume, just like Mayweather & Hopkins before).
Manny is now #1. See the pattern? Either Floyd needs to beat Manny, or Manny needs to lose, just like everyone else.
You're right though, there are exceptions. For example if Floyd were to keep beating elite fighters and if manny were to take on lesser opponents, but we all know that's not happening.
Roy Jones was pound 4 pound #1. He gets KTFO, the #2 guy beomes the top man (and he earned that right despite not actually beating Jones). Was bernard hopkins a paper champ? Fuck no, his resume speaked for itself.
Hopkins was p4p #1, he loses to Taylor, Mayweather becomes #1 (and he also earned that despite not actually fighting bernard, obviously). So in your logic Mayweather was paper champ? Obviously not.
Mayweather retires, #2 pacquiao moves up to #1 (and he earned that right based on his resume, just like Mayweather & Hopkins before).
Manny is now #1. See the pattern? Either Floyd needs to beat Manny, or Manny needs to lose, just like everyone else.
You're right though, there are exceptions. For example if Floyd were to keep beating elite fighters and if manny were to take on lesser opponents, but we all know that's not happening.
I'm not 2-0 but I'm a fan of random list making.
01. Roy Jones Jr.
02. Pernell Whitaker
03. Oscar De La Hoya
04. Julio Cesar Chavez
05. Ricardo Lopez
Reasoning for this list you ask?
Roy Jones .. whatever you thought of him Roy Jones graced P4P lists for most of the 90s. Undefeated in the 90s minus the DQ to Griffin RJJ took out Hopkins, Toney & McCallum as convincingly as possible.
Pernell Whitaker .. if I have to explain this you're either gay or a commie.
Oscar De La Hoya .. also hated by a lot of people but in the 90s was an undefeated 4 divisional champion until he fucked himself over against Trinidad by not fighting.
JCC .. another guy who graced P4P lists for most of the early 90s and his ranking IMO is probably left overs for fights from the 80s but nonetheless an excellent fighter from the 90s.
Ricardo Lopez .. this one is probably complete bias but Lopez was probably the best very small man I've ever seen. Retired undefeated avenging the only blemish on his record which was a draw to Rosendo Alvarez.
.. and Mike Tyson wouldn't be in my 90s P4P list. He started the year off by getting blown away in one of the biggest upsets in boxing history fought a few more times, went to prison then got beat up by Evander Holyfield a little while and the downward spiral of his career followed not too long after that.
01. Roy Jones Jr.
02. Pernell Whitaker
03. Oscar De La Hoya
04. Julio Cesar Chavez
05. Ricardo Lopez
Reasoning for this list you ask?
Roy Jones .. whatever you thought of him Roy Jones graced P4P lists for most of the 90s. Undefeated in the 90s minus the DQ to Griffin RJJ took out Hopkins, Toney & McCallum as convincingly as possible.
Pernell Whitaker .. if I have to explain this you're either gay or a commie.
Oscar De La Hoya .. also hated by a lot of people but in the 90s was an undefeated 4 divisional champion until he fucked himself over against Trinidad by not fighting.
JCC .. another guy who graced P4P lists for most of the early 90s and his ranking IMO is probably left overs for fights from the 80s but nonetheless an excellent fighter from the 90s.
Ricardo Lopez .. this one is probably complete bias but Lopez was probably the best very small man I've ever seen. Retired undefeated avenging the only blemish on his record which was a draw to Rosendo Alvarez.
.. and Mike Tyson wouldn't be in my 90s P4P list. He started the year off by getting blown away in one of the biggest upsets in boxing history fought a few more times, went to prison then got beat up by Evander Holyfield a little while and the downward spiral of his career followed not too long after that.
P4P has the same relevance as a Belt, so yeah there can be a Paper P4P (I just coined it). 2-0-Sixx, you must think I'm new to the sport of boxing to spell it out like that. you know I know how it works, the only point you keep missing is in all those scenarios you so carefully spelled out, some one lost or got KTFO as you so skillfully put it LOL (I'm just teasing you). But seriously, the biggest difference in this case is Floyd has never got KTFO or lost any bouts for that matter. Do ya see the pattern??? Like I said before, Floyd doesn't even need to fight Manny to regain his position and you know like I know Manny will lose before Mayweather does. First, he's fighting way out of his weight range (though his fans are loving it to this point), and yeah he's making alot of money and wowing his fans by beating set ups. Well of course their is lots of risk in the fights he's taking, but like I said before, if he is truly trying to do something special, go after the real big dogs in these higher weight classes instead of the calculated risks where at least if he loses he gets a big check. If he really wants to be special, take on a Clottey, Casamayor, Mosely, Shit take on a Nate Campbell or Bradley or even the Baby Bull. He's playin safe just like you think Mayweather is, or better yet he's only taking a risk that will financially pay off if he loses and so be it (he's earned the right to in his fans eyes). He's not seeking out the best of the best though. He won't even fight most of the African American fighters because they are very athletic and elusive fighters who won't stand right in front of him and let him tee off and you know this is historically correct by looking at his list of opponents. So again, Mayweather can get his P4P back without ever facing Manny.
Set ups? I still don't understand how you can say that. He's fighting Cotto, who holds wins over 3 of the top 10 best welterweights in the world right now. Cotto has easily fought the best welterweights out of any active welterweight today...and the fight is far from a gimme fight. Cotto still might just beat the shit out of Pacquiao, but the fact is that he's taking the risk. That would be like Floyd moving up to '54 to fight Paul Williams, which we all know he'd NEVER do.
None of those fights would even be a remotely big fight, with the exception of a Mosley fight, which obviously is still a possibility down the line, but besides that I don't see Pacquiao moving back down to 135.
Besides, you mention Clottey and Mosley but the fact is that Cotto has already beat both of these guys, so in a sense he's going above and beyond what you say he should be doing.
1.) Manny Pacquiao
2.) Floyd Mayweather
3.) Juan Manuel Marquez
4.) Bernard Hopkins
5.) Shane Mosley
I fought with the 5 spot, between Mosley and Cotto...but I honestly had Clottey winning the fight with him (Cotto) by 2 rounds...so I don't know.
Most are good lists, but the moron who said Marquez should be off the list is retarded. A lightweight champion moving up 2 divisions to fight (arguably) the best p4p fighter of your lifetime, and he should be removed.
SMH
2.) Floyd Mayweather
3.) Juan Manuel Marquez
4.) Bernard Hopkins
5.) Shane Mosley
I fought with the 5 spot, between Mosley and Cotto...but I honestly had Clottey winning the fight with him (Cotto) by 2 rounds...so I don't know.
Most are good lists, but the moron who said Marquez should be off the list is retarded. A lightweight champion moving up 2 divisions to fight (arguably) the best p4p fighter of your lifetime, and he should be removed.
SMH
First off, Cotto got the win on paper on Mosely and Clottey, but those wins are as good as a winning a dollar in the lotto and you know it. You tellin me a Bradley vs. Pacquiao fight wouldn't be a big fight? Are you kidding me? You mean "big" as in a a money fight with a huge draw or as an epic battle? All the names I mentioned would give Manny a huge fight. Cotto is a set up fight in the sense that it's only an option because he is scared to fight Mosely and Mayweather. In fact, Cotto is the fight he will probably wish he didn't take in the long run. If he loses to Cotto, alot of big money will be off the table. He has the cards in his hands as long as he doesn't lose. The only reason we are even talking about Manny is because the game of boxing is looking right past alot of talented fighters who are just as good but not as marketable at this point. That's the same reason boxing is losing it's luster. it's putting all of it's money behind Pacquiao instead of developing the story lines on alot of fighters who are worthy of the same type of PR, but could change soon if Cotto doesn't get old overnight. Though I believe he lost to Clottey and Mosely, I think he is physically gifted enough to beat a game Pacman.
Good post, but the part I wanted to address ^ ^ ^...
I agree boxing is looking past these fighters, but it's the fans, also. Real fans (you, as an example) see the value of a Timothy Bradley vs. Manny Pacquiao fight. But these casual fans who buy the PPV and buy the seats to see Oscar or Floyd or Hatton in a huge super-fight aren't interested in a good-to-great fighter because there's no glamour and glitz. If you want to see an example, see the Israel Vasquez/Raphael Marquez fights, in order. (Not directed at you, but at anyone reading this.) You probably have seen or heard about these fights. But look at the crowd. Watch as it grows from the first, where half the arena was empty, to the last, when it was a packed house with celebrities in attendance.
Bradley, Campbell, etc. need exposure, yes...but Manny wasn't a big name until he made himself one. Before the Morales fight, who thought he'd be fighting Oscar? He made the most of what he got. I wish we could see more of these good-to-great fighters who aren't as well known in bigger fights, but the FAN has to support them (MONEY), and to do that, the promoters and corporations have to support them...I think I'm going in circles, but you get my point. This is kind of like the whole 'which came first, the chicken or the egg'...
Anyways, a big fight to us isn't the same as a big fight (MONEY) to Bob Arum, Oscar De La Hoya, etc.
I'd love to see Bradley and Pacquiao...but would that generate the money a fight with Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, etc. would?
I agree boxing is looking past these fighters, but it's the fans, also. Real fans (you, as an example) see the value of a Timothy Bradley vs. Manny Pacquiao fight. But these casual fans who buy the PPV and buy the seats to see Oscar or Floyd or Hatton in a huge super-fight aren't interested in a good-to-great fighter because there's no glamour and glitz. If you want to see an example, see the Israel Vasquez/Raphael Marquez fights, in order. (Not directed at you, but at anyone reading this.) You probably have seen or heard about these fights. But look at the crowd. Watch as it grows from the first, where half the arena was empty, to the last, when it was a packed house with celebrities in attendance.
Bradley, Campbell, etc. need exposure, yes...but Manny wasn't a big name until he made himself one. Before the Morales fight, who thought he'd be fighting Oscar? He made the most of what he got. I wish we could see more of these good-to-great fighters who aren't as well known in bigger fights, but the FAN has to support them (MONEY), and to do that, the promoters and corporations have to support them...I think I'm going in circles, but you get my point. This is kind of like the whole 'which came first, the chicken or the egg'...
Anyways, a big fight to us isn't the same as a big fight (MONEY) to Bob Arum, Oscar De La Hoya, etc.
I'd love to see Bradley and Pacquiao...but would that generate the money a fight with Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, etc. would?
MR. CLEEN I find it so hypocritical of you to critisize Pacquiao for fighting "set ups" and "not taking risks" while maintaining Floyd is #1!!!!!! Floyd fought Marquez, a 130 pound fighter, instead of a true welterweight or a 154 pound fighter. Prior he fought Ricky Hatton instead of Cotto or Margarito or Shane Mosley. Prior to that he fought Oscar, sure the risk there was Oscar was bigger, well the same risk was there for Pacquiao, sure you can look back and say Oscar was weight drained at 147, but Pac was a 135 pound fighter at the time!!! Prior Floyd fought Carlos 'fucking' Baldimor, a big LOL on that one. Prior he fought Zab Judah who was coming off a loss!!! And what was before that? In Floyd's on words, a "C-Class fighter" in Arturo Gatti. All the while, Pacquiao was fighting the best mexicans on the planet and continuing to move up in weight. You're talking about "why doesn't pac fight mosley, clottey, etc." WHY THE FUCK DOESN'T FLOYD, WHO IS A TRUE WELTERWEIGHT?!?!? That's why Pac is #1.
So if you criticize Pac then you need to do the exact same for floyd.
I'm a fan of both fighters, Pac & Floyd, they are the best in the game imo. But if you want to compare resumes & who is the bigger risk taker, absolutely no fuckin question that goes to Pac.
Sure Floyd WAS #1 and is undefeated. But when you retire, you retire your belts and that #1 p4p spot. You cant just come back, beat a guy you're supposed to win and reclaim that spot. No, you have to re-earn it.
So if you criticize Pac then you need to do the exact same for floyd.
I'm a fan of both fighters, Pac & Floyd, they are the best in the game imo. But if you want to compare resumes & who is the bigger risk taker, absolutely no fuckin question that goes to Pac.
Sure Floyd WAS #1 and is undefeated. But when you retire, you retire your belts and that #1 p4p spot. You cant just come back, beat a guy you're supposed to win and reclaim that spot. No, you have to re-earn it.