Police shoot man 81 times *WARNING THIS IS GRAPHIC AND UNEDITED*

[HERESY]

So their are no High Speed chases in Concord ? Right.

From what I understand, and from what I've read (concerning their policy) there is a no chase policy that is enforced.

Apples and Oranges sounds like what you are doing comparing a boyfriend to a Husband or a Father, it really doesnt matter, for the sake of debate, it does not matter to me, just that they have a relationship with the person they want to see.

I'm comparing apples an oranges by mentioning the FACT that he wanted to see the woman who was PREGNANT with his child? An EX relationship is a FORMER relationship. It is DEAD, DONE AND NO LONGER. A person wanting to see a person he is STILL in a relationship (because he probably doesn't know if she herself is alive or dead with his unborn child) is something DIFFERENT, now please, explain how your position makes sense, because I don't actually see the point you're trying to make here.

It would be wonderfull if we lived in Utopia and everytime things were bad we could act up and have a loved one who cares listen to us. This is not the case. I live in a real world were I know if I act stupid I am going to get treated that way. Does he not have any responsibility for his own actions?

Depending on his mental stability at the time he may or may not have to take responsibility for his actions. You claim to study criminal justice, so why don't you take 2 minutes of your time and explain Mens Re, Actus Reus and how both may be applied to the guy who was killed (based on what you see in the video.)

I took 3 classes. I like the Cop shows especially First 48, if you dont watch it your missing out.

No, instead of watching cop shows I make sure I hit the court houses (for extra credit) and read a gangload of books (for my personal knowledge.) Also, what cj courses did you take exactly?

I didnt sink my argument at all. First I think of this more as a debate, I see we will both not change our views and thats fine.

If this were a policy debate you would have sunk your argument. Have you taken a debate class before? If so you should see where your entire argument has been sunk (by your own doing not mine.)

So if this guy is out of his mind you are supposed to be more kick back in your attempt to get him in to custidy ?

No, you are supposed to be safe, ease the situation and not be confrontational. Failing to do so will result in a loss of life, liability issues and lawsuits (and all three have occured in this instance.)

Nope it goes the other way. He is unpredictable. So although he might not be in his right mind, HE IS STILL A THREAT. Say he has a gun, are we having this debate ?

No one is removing the fact that he could be a threat, but the question is was he a threat? If he is saying he will go PEACEFULLY if he is able to talk to the mother of his child how much of a threat is he? What would it hurt by meeting the demand and ending the situation before it escalated in death? Are law enforcers supposed to protect and serve? Yes. Is apprx 80% of police work non crime related? YES! With that being said why not do what it takes to lesson the loss of life and liability? If he has a gun he could still be a threat, but the question is who is he a threat to? Himself or the officers? Yes, he could have shot and killed an officers if he had a gun, but as I mentioned before we had to watch a video were a MURDERER who the police KNEW WAS A MURDERER had a gun on HIMSELF while the negotiator sat less than four feet away from him. Now, as I have said before, it only takes a 90 degree turn and that gun could have been pointed and fired at the negotiator. In this case was the gunman a threat? If so why did he have a negotiator?

Again I think you are thinking that I am for the cops on this. I am not.

What part of my posts lead you to believe this?

They should have used non lethal means or even waited a little longer.

You say they should have used non lethal means, yet you implied he shouldn't be allowed to talk to his girl because every crazed EX boyfriend is going to want the same thing. :dead:

Cops talking shit to him is not going to help squash it and get him to come in peacefully.

How do we know his ENTIRE course of actions were NOT a result of what the police previously said or did to him? If cops talking shit to him is not going to ease the situation maybe talking to him in a respectful tone WILL. BTW, do you know what most complaints against cops across the nation involve?

My main point is that if he would not have acted this way this would not have happened.

We are past this point. Yes, he acted irrational, but here are the questions that need answering:

1. What caused his irrational behavior?

2. Was he in control of his mental faculties at the time?

3. Could the death have been avoided if police had taken a different form of action?

See, you (and others reading and posting) are stuck on blaming this man hitting him with the spotlight, but it is not that simple. No matter what he did police are supposed to remain within the guidelines laid down by the department, and it appears that their use of discretion was inappropriate. My point? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Everyone always looks to pass the blame somewhere else, at some point people have to be accountable for their own actions.

Refer to my questions about Mens Rea and Actus Reus.

He did not deserve to die but he choose a path of actions that lead to his demise.

If he had not acted the way he did chances are he would still be alive. If he had acted the way he did but police chose a different method of handling the situation chances are he would be alive. Why are you making it seem as if he had sole responsibility in all of this?

 

[Ethereal]

The people on this message board don't dictate policy, and why should they place more emphasis on the suspect when a lot of emphasis is not placed on sharing protocol and information with the general public? Do you honestly expect a group of people, who have NO KNOWLEDGE of how things work in the CJ system, to all of a sudden look at the suspect when relations between the police and the community have been strained?

Everytime that I have seen something like this posted it usually follows that people immediatley place the blame on police officers and really don't attempt to understand it from their point of view. That is why I stated that people on this message board should not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

So anytime a cop approaches someone they should just surrender? What part of the penal code is this?

It's not part of any penal code. It is for their own safety and well being. I'm not saying if a cop approaches them that they should assume the position. Rather, they should listen to the cop and do exactly what they say.

Are officers supposed to uphold the law? A yes or no will suffice. Are officers trained to uphold the law? A yes or no will suffice. Is killing a man one of the seven points taught by departments and academies or is bringing in the suspect and having them go through the CJ system?

The answers to these questions are obvious. Similar questions can be applied to the suspect for which he did not act in accordance. I'm not saying the cops were right in what they did.

This makes NO sense at all. Please read what you are replying to and read what I was replying to.

Sure it does. If the police are trying to arrest someone who is mentally ill, and they are not aware of this, they should expect the suspect to go quietly.

Take a criminal justice course if your local JC offers one. If that is not an option call up your local police department and ask to speak with the counselors on duty. Ask if they can give you pamphlets and info about officers who shoot (and sometimes kill) and how they are affected by the course of action. I hope they give you a bunch of info pertaining to the climbing suicide rate of officers, and info about alcoholism (due to stress and tragic events while on duty.)

I have already taken a criminal justice class. Thank you.

Judging from the video (what they actually said) they were not open to negotiations. Why not? If there is a problem with tracking down where she was why not tell him? If they had no direct line or she was not in the system yet why not tell him?

I don't know.

 

[HERESY]

Everytime that I have seen something like this posted it usually follows that people immediatley place the blame on police officers and really don't attempt to understand it from their point of view. That is why I stated that people on this message board should not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

And why do they jump to conclusions? Because they have no knowledge of the CJ system, how it works, and have strained relations with the police. Since we know this to be true, what do you suggest the people and the police do to spread awareness?

It's not part of any penal code. It is for their own safety and well being. I'm not saying if a cop approaches them that they should assume the position. Rather, they should listen to the cop and do exactly what they say.

Yes or no, have people been killed while cooperating with the police?

The answers to these questions are obvious. Similar questions can be applied to the suspect for which he did not act in accordance. I'm not saying the cops were right in what they did.

Nitro, police officers are held to a higher standard than citizens. This guy could have disobeyed all day long, but that does not mean the officers have teh right to be judge, jury and executioner. Use discretion to EASE the situation instead of using discretion to ESCALATE a situation that results in death. Remember, police are TRAINED to operate in a certain way, and when they deviate from this training or use discretion that isn't "ethical" many problems arise.

Sure it does. If the police are trying to arrest someone who is mentally ill, and they are not aware of this, they should expect the suspect to go quietly.

So what you're saying is police expect everyone to go along quietly?

I have already taken a criminal justice class. Thank you.

I don't know which class you have taken, but from the looks of what you're posting it doesn't really seem as if you got your monies worth. It is hard to believe a person who has taken an intro to criminal justice course would even say, "I disagree. Maybe the officer who resigned accidently killed someone who was not threatening his life. He might see this one in a different light." IMHO, any person with knowledge pertaining to the problems police officers go through after shootings (which is probably taught in every intro cj course) wouldn't make the same claims you make.

I don't know.

Yet you place more blame on the victim....

 

[BigE916WRM]

So you are saying that because he might have been wacked out he should not be held accountable for his actions ?

I could break down every reply of yours but I just got home and I am drunk at almost 5:30 in the AM so you win this round.

I will say this your questioning of my studies is a bit insulting, I dont need to lie about classes I have taken to kick it in this forum.

TBC

 

[HERESY]

So you are saying that because he might have been wacked out he should not be held accountable for his actions ?

No, I am saying IF he WAS wacked out he does not understand his actions, and because he does not understand his actions, he is not accountable. The LAW supports this, so if you don't agree with it, why don't you do something to change the current laws pertaining to mental issues/insanity and accountability?

Did you NOT say:

not many people in their right mind would act that way.

Again, if many people in their right mind act a certain way, and this mans behavior is not the same as the general public, is it safe to say he is out of his mind? If he is out of his mind how can you expect him to help himself out? How can you expect him to take responsibility for his actions or to go along peacefully?

I could break down every reply of yours but I just got home and I am drunk at almost 5:30 in the AM so you win this round.

No problem, I wasn't sitting here waiting for a reply. You can reply when you sober up or never reply at all.

I will say this your questioning of my studies is a bit insulting, I dont need to lie about classes I have taken to kick it in this forum.

Why do you find my questioning insulting? Have I implied you lied? Have I implied you flunked out? No, I have done neither, so why take my questioning as a bit insulting? Listen, if you say, "I live in a real world were I know if I act stupid I am going to get treated that way. Does he not have any responsibility for his own actions? ", why SHOULDN'T I ask you explain what I asked you to explain? If you ARE capable of explaining it, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE MADE THE CLAIM YOU DID, NOR WOULD YOU ASK TRIVIAL QUESTIONS.

 

[BigE916WRM]

" You claim to study criminal justice, so why don't you take 2 minutes of your time and explain Mens Re, Actus Reus and how both may be applied to the guy who was killed (based on what you see in the video.)

"Why do you find my questioning insulting? Have I implied you lied? Have I implied you flunked out? No, I have done neither"

However you word it, when you say "you claim" to start with, it usually means you dont believe.

The fact is that he posed a threat. In a court later on after evaluations is when they decide if he is competent to be held accountable for his actions, not when he is in public posing a threat.

 

[HERESY]

However you word it, when you say "you claim" to start with, it usually means you dont believe.

No, it doesn't, and if something usually means something is there a possibility that it could mean something else? You made a claim, and it would be wrong to just come out and deny it, but it would also be wrong to believe it just because you said. So, I asked for some evidence that would actually validate your claim, and NOW I am leading more towards you not...welll...you should be able to see where I am going here.

The fact is that he posed a threat.

Posed a threat to who? Where citizens in the vincinity? Did he have a weapon?

In a court later on after evaluations is when they decide if he is competent to be held accountable for his actions, not when he is in public posing a threat.

Can you please explain to the board what 5150 is, and after you do so I'd like for you to explain why a person who is labled as such is done so when he is POSING A THREAT TO THE PUBLIC AND BEFORE HE SETS FOOT IN A COURTROOM. :dead:

 

[BigE916WRM]

Words games do not change perception. Its easy to always change things when it suits your needs. It has been years since I took my CJ classes almost 10 and I am sure laws have changed and the courses were basic. I never claimed to be an expert in the field. I am sure your knowledge in this field is much more than mine, but I would say I got you in common sense and street smarts, and sports.

You actually want to debate that he was not posing a threat ? Are you serious ? Who knows if he has the gun ? how many times did he imply that he did have one and was more than willing to use it.

You are avoiding the main point. While he is a threat to the public, you have to get him under control if he is sane or insane.

So basically the victim has no accountability for his own actions in this ?

Why did the US as a whole not get up in arms over this story ? because of the victim and his actions leading up to his death.

 

[HERESY]

Words games do not change perception.

You have the right to perceive things how you want, and regardless of how you do it, I know what my intentions where when I made the comment and asked the questions.

It has been years since I took my CJ classes almost 10 and I am sure laws have changed and the courses were basic.

OK.

I never claimed to be an expert in the field.

You sure didn't, and trust me when I say this, but I doubt many people looked upon you as an expert.

I am sure your knowledge in this field is much more than mine, but I would say I got you in common sense and street smarts, and sports.

1. You got me in common sense? First of all you lack common sense for even bringing up three things that have absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread. Common sense tells me to ask questions, stay on topic, and read as many books as possible. Common sense tells you to watch cop tv shows and to deviate from the discussion.

2. How do you know you have better street smarts than I? You don't know ANYTHING about my background, where I am from, my criminal history (if any) or affiliation. The ONLY thing you know is what I allow you to know when I type, and I haven't mentioned my street smarts here because they have nothing to do with the topic.

3. Sports? Who gives a shit about sports, and how are sports important in this topic? Again, you don't know my background, have no insight regarding my athleticism, and are making claims based on nothing.

You actually want to debate that he was not posing a threat ?

Who was he posing a threat to? I've asked you this question several times now, but you want to dance around it.

Are you serious ?

SEE ABOVE.

Who knows if he has the gun ?

Thats why you resort to other methods to see if you can find out if he has a gun OR if you can get him to come along peacefully.

how many times did he imply that he did have one and was more than willing to use it.

How many times did he say he would GIVE UP if they simply allowed him to talk to the woman who was pregnant with his child? If he is saying he will give up if a simple demand is met, where is the threat factor?

You are avoiding the main point. While he is a threat to the public, you have to get him under control if he is sane or insane.

No YOU are avoiding the main point by brining up things that have nothing to do with the topic, by avoiding questions, and by typing nonsense. How is he a threat to the public when he has NO WEAPON? Yes, you DO have to get him under control if he is sane and insane, and depending on what a person is, the methods may change.

Again, if this guy is saying he will give up peacefully if they allow him to speak to his girlfriend who is pregnant with his child, why not ease the situation by letting him do so? If he doesn't give up then, go to the next step of action which could be other non-lethal means.

So basically the victim has no accountability for his own actions in this ?

Are you retarded? Seriously, are you retarded? WHY WOULD YOU ASK THAT WHEN I HAVE ALREADY STATED THE FOLLOWING:

No, I am saying IF he WAS wacked out he does not understand his actions, and because he does not understand his actions, he is not accountable.

Depending on his mental stability at the time he may or may not have to take responsibility for his actions.

Again, if many people in their right mind act a certain way, and this mans behavior is not the same as the general public, is it safe to say he is out of his mind? If he is out of his mind how can you expect him to help himself out? How can you expect him to take responsibility for his actions or to go along peacefully?

If he had not acted the way he did chances are he would still be alive.

Why did the US as a whole not get up in arms over this story ?

Because it never hit the mainstream media like other videos of questionable tactics.

because of the victim and his actions leading up to his death.

Do you think before you type? So you're saying that the reason the mainstream media didn't pick it up is because of the way he was acting. Do you have any insight as to when the video was made public? If the video was not available to the mainstream media, you should probably focus on a logical explanation as to why it wasn't instead of implying that everyone across america is a heartless and uneducated savage...

 

[BIGSBY]

that's fukkd' up bruh'.

thats why every one on tha fuck tha pigs shit, what tha fuck did dude do ne wayz?

nd why did they send tha dog and start shootin, wtf?
poor dog

 

[Cmoke]

im gunna say it again. you tell the cops you have a gun and your gunna shoot them....you are asking for death in a can. If you sit there and encourage them to send a police dog as an excuse to shot police officers, you are also asking for a toe tag. i have no sympathy for this guy at all. he asked for it and he got it. the only thing i can see wrong in this video is after hes shot and they totally ignore giving him medical aid after hes no longer a threat. thats their jobs, even if a cop just got his ass kicked and lets say he has to use leathal force, its still his responsibilty to provide medical aid to the suspect/victim. and that didnt happen here. but that guy got what he deserved.

 

[BigE916WRM]

He posed a threat to the L.E. who was around him as was plain to see, the gun was not visable, but he claimed to have it with 13 shots. Once again say he stands up with it, we are not talking about this.

I know it impowers you to talk down to me in your posts and I hope it makes you feel better about yourself. The whole time through this whole debate I have gone back and forth with you and expressed my thoughts and views. Without taken shots at you. Whats next are you going to challenge to meet me somewhere ?

You think this guy should get VIP treatment so he will surrender, common sense and street smarts would tell you that, that is not going to happen.

The media gets many obsecure videos and run with them all the time, and you are telling me this one slipped through the cracks ? Nonsense. He is not a sypathetic victim. Look at this thread, a lot of the people in here are not sypathetic towards him and this is on a Hip Hop site. So how would mainstream America look on it ?

 

[MAVA]

smh

 

[HERESY]

He posed a threat to the L.E. who was around him as was plain to see

How?

the gun was not visable

HE NEVER HAD A GUN, AND BECAUSE IT WAS NOT VISABLE DIFFERENT PRECAUTIONS SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN.

but he claimed to have it with 13 shots.

See above.

Once again say he stands up with it, we are not talking about this.

Why don't you do what I did. Why don't you research the incident and find out what he REALLY had instead of saying he had a gun, because once you do, you'll stop typing foolishness.

I know it impowers you to talk down to me in your posts and I hope it makes you feel better about yourself.

No, I am empowered and feel good REGARDLESS of how I speak to you, but the fact is, you have been given ample respect, but now that I see that you aren't articulate and want to type mush (on purpose), I have no reason to continue the convo in a manner that is pleasent for you.

The whole time through this whole debate I have gone back and forth with you and expressed my thoughts and views.

Again, if this were a policy debate (something I believe you have no experience in), you would have lost a long time ago, and the fact is you have NOT gone back and forth expressing your views. What you have done is misconstrued statements, contort the truth, avoid questions, bring up topics that have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION, and make an ass of yourself and your education system.

Without taken shots at you. Whats next are you going to challenge to meet me somewhere ?

Actually, taking shots at you would be saying or implying something that is far fetched, but everything I have said up to this point has validity. You simply aren't used to being called on your lunacy, and now your senses are shocked and warped from the experience. And as far as meeting up somewhere, why would I meet you? You haven't done anything (positive or negative) for me to grant you the time of the day, and if that was your way of trying to wiggle out of all of this you're even worse off than I thought.

You think this guy should get VIP treatment so he will surrender, common sense and street smarts would tell you that, that is not going to happen.

Again, no one is saying this guy should get VIP treatment so he can surrender. What I am saying is he should get treatment that will NOT escalate into DEATH which will escalate into LAWSUITS that challange police LIABILITY and ETHICS. Why do you not have the ability to comprehend what I have said over five times now? Again, what do STREET SMARTS and COMMON SENSE have to do with this? Do you think street smarts and common sense dictate police policy and the courts? NO! The fact that you are only able to look at this from a common sense/street level is proof that you are not articulate and capable of forming meaningful thoughts. I have already looked at things from that perspective and have already said the guy made mistakes (regardless if he was stable or not), but YOU are failing to look at it from a victims perspective or from what you claimed you learned from your CJ classes. This is what I am trying to get you to do--but you FAIL miserably at it.

The media gets many obsecure videos and run with them all the time, and you are telling me this one slipped through the cracks ?

In happened in 2003, and I heard about 15 minutes before I made this thread. SEVERAL people who keep up with the news (like nav) thought this was a RECENT incident that happened THIS MONTH. This story did NOT make the nation wide news, and the fact that it didn't can be attributed to many things. The first being the tape was probably not released when the incident happened. The second being, local media probably did not check police logs/records for anything newsworthy. The third being the possibility that no one actually submitted the tape to the media. The fourth being the political and social collapse this video would cause if shown on national media, several times a day. The fifth being FCC regulations/laws pertaining to showing death on standard TV.

ALL OF THESE ARE LOGICAL REASONS AS TO WHY THE MEDIA DID NOT SHOW THIS, AND YOUR SOLE REASON, IS ONE OF RETARDATION/WINDOW LICKING.

Nonsense. He is not a sypathetic victim.

He does not have to be! You have crooks and victims making the tv daily.

Look at this thread, a lot of the people in here are not sypathetic towards him and this is on a Hip Hop site.

A lot of people on here are WHITE, and to be honest I don't expect many of the people on here to be sympathetic towards a black man. In addition, a lot of people are not sympathetic now, but let the same thing happen to their loved ones and they will go mad!

So how would mainstream America look on it ?

Mainstream america is WHITE. They will look at it how they have for the last 400 years.

 

[HERESY]

im gunna say it again. you tell the cops you have a gun and your gunna shoot them....you are asking for death in a can. If you sit there and encourage them to send a police dog as an excuse to shot police officers, you are also asking for a toe tag. i have no sympathy for this guy at all. he asked for it and he got it. the only thing i can see wrong in this video is after hes shot and they totally ignore giving him medical aid after hes no longer a threat. thats their jobs, even if a cop just got his ass kicked and lets say he has to use leathal force, its still his responsibilty to provide medical aid to the suspect/victim. and that didnt happen here. but that guy got what he deserved.

I'll address this when I get home.

 

[JLMACN]

i basically agree with Csmoke.

5000

 

[HERESY]

i basically agree with Csmoke.

5000

Form a thought of your own instead of riding the next mans coat tail. It's sickening....:dead:

 

[JLMACN]

i did its on page 1 or maybe 2.

Not reading and running of at the mouth is sickening.

5000

 

[HERESY]

i did its on page 1 or maybe 2.

Not reading and running of at the mouth is sickening.

5000

I'm talking about how smoke said something somewhat thought provoking, and deserving of a cogent response, while you basically say little in both resposnes. THAT my friend, is not using your brain (to read and think critically) and running at the mouth.

 

[JLMACN]

i didnt and still dont feel the need to get into detail...

my "little" response is enough.

I dont feel sorry for the guy. He got what he was asking for.

5000