Muslims, chill...
- Thread starter I. Cold
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Yes a lot of Muslims own liquor stores, but those Muslims don't make up a significant percentage of total Muslims in America.
You're right, I just made up 6 million off the top of my head based on the different numbers I've read and heard.
lol, I've been seeing you post here for quite a few years now and I know you are very intelligent and knowledgeable about most things you discuss. I also know you are very detail minded and I didn't want to make any assumptions that I didn't have any proof of.
Yes, these people are compromising their well-being in the hereafter for monetary gain in this world and it is wrong. But are they hypocrytes? Using the definitions that you provided, I would have to disagree with you. The definitions that you used were: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess or an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction . Now these definitions require one to know what is in the hearts of these people and nobody knows what's in someone's heart except for Allah. These people may or may not be hypocrits, but we don't know and we can't judge them cause we don't know what's in their hearts. Now, do their actions imply that they might be hypocrits? Yes, possibly. But we still can't judge them because we really don't know what's in their hearts. There's a lot of instances where people do something that they know in their hearts is wrong, but still do it for various reasons. Just a very basic example. Why do we lie? We know its wrong, but we still do it. Does that make us hypocrits?
You're right, I just made up 6 million off the top of my head based on the different numbers I've read and heard.
lol, I've been seeing you post here for quite a few years now and I know you are very intelligent and knowledgeable about most things you discuss. I also know you are very detail minded and I didn't want to make any assumptions that I didn't have any proof of.
Yes, these people are compromising their well-being in the hereafter for monetary gain in this world and it is wrong. But are they hypocrytes? Using the definitions that you provided, I would have to disagree with you. The definitions that you used were: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess or an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction . Now these definitions require one to know what is in the hearts of these people and nobody knows what's in someone's heart except for Allah. These people may or may not be hypocrits, but we don't know and we can't judge them cause we don't know what's in their hearts. Now, do their actions imply that they might be hypocrits? Yes, possibly. But we still can't judge them because we really don't know what's in their hearts. There's a lot of instances where people do something that they know in their hearts is wrong, but still do it for various reasons. Just a very basic example. Why do we lie? We know its wrong, but we still do it. Does that make us hypocrits?
I know this isn't directed at me and it's not my debate but I can't just ignore this or the notion that someone's trying to imply that such act by a person of faith isn't hypocrisy.
If you're a Muslim, and your religion tells you that the consumption of alcohol is a sin, yet you turn around and sell the poison, is a clear act of hypocrisy.
There's no denying that, no matter what the excuse for the individual is. It's pure hypocrisy.
I liken this to the many so-called Christians out there who support the death penalty. Hypocrits....
I'm not passing judgement on them (only the Perfect One is worthy of judgement), I'm just telling it like it is.
There's a difference between describing something, and judging something.
Finally to answer your question, if you believe lying is wrong, and you partake in lying then that makes you a hypocrit....
If you're a Muslim, and your religion tells you that the consumption of alcohol is a sin, yet you turn around and sell the poison, is a clear act of hypocrisy.
There's no denying that, no matter what the excuse for the individual is. It's pure hypocrisy.
I liken this to the many so-called Christians out there who support the death penalty. Hypocrits....
I'm not passing judgement on them (only the Perfect One is worthy of judgement), I'm just telling it like it is.
There's a difference between describing something, and judging something.
Finally to answer your question, if you believe lying is wrong, and you partake in lying then that makes you a hypocrit....
All I'm doing is going by the definition of hypocrit which was given by Heresy. In that definition, its not one's actions that make them a hypocrit, its one's beliefs. Just because I lie doesn't make me a hypocrit. Is it against my morals and do feel bad that I do it? Yes. But it doesn't make me a hypocrit according to Heresy's definition. Ideally, if you believe something is wrong, you wouldn't do it. But that's not how things work in the real world. If I didn't think lying was wrong and I told people to not lie, that would make me a hypocrit.
According to Heresy's definition it doesn't. Like I said, in an ideal world people would practice what they believe in. Another factor to consider is the level of belief a person has. If my belief that lying is wrong was really strong, I probably wouldn't lie. Or if these Muslims iman was strong, they wouldn't sell alcohol no matter how much money they could make. I'm sure most of these liquor store owners will tell you that selling alcohol is wrong. Their belief in it might not be very strong, but deep down inside they know its wrong. Its just that at this point in time they value this world more than the next.
Until we have a specific number this is pure speculation. If america has 4 million muslims, and I show you 10% own liquor stores that is a significant number. So again, until we have the actual figures, this is not an argument we should focus on. Why shouldn't we focus on this? We should not focus on this because I am not claiming all muslims are hypocrites (why do I keep spelling it with an e at the end?)
No problem. Like I said we don't have a true figure to go on, so I can't hold this against you.
Thankyou.
That is not my entire definition. I am applying ALL senses/uses of the word to muslims in question, and words in bold denote strong points.
hy•poc•ri•sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy•poc•ri•sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.
n 1: an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction [syn: lip service] 2: insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have
False. The definition (s) provided do not require the knowledge of someones heart. All that is required is a professed belief and contrary action to that belief.
"Lip Service" is part of the definition and knowledge of the heart has nothing to do with it. ACTIONS speak louder than words, and if these people are professing that islam is the correct religion, they are being hypocrites by providing items and services that go against islam. A tree is known by the fruit it bears and hypocrites will sugarcoat their actions or make an excuse. If their actions were PURE they would NOT compromise their faith in god for monetary gain.
Possibly? Possibly? LMAO! Their actions point to sin and hypocrisy and you need to stop looking for some loophole to save you. If eating swine is bad for a muslim why sell it to non-muslims? Why not LEAD BY EXAMPLE?
Listen, if I tell you "Christianity is the right religion, I am a christian, the bible is the only book to follow, you should not worship idols", but I turn around and sell you statues of molech, marduk and astarte what does that make me?
See the above. A tree is known by the fruit that it bears.
Thats great, but what does that have to do with those PROFESSING THAT ISLAM IS THE CORRECT RELIGION, BUT LIVING A LIFE CONTRARY TO THE PROFESSED BELIEFS OR DOCTRINE/DOGMA OF ISLAM?
This depends on what religious or moral values you have. Satanist or athiests may find it perfectly ok to lie. Muslims may find it ok to lie for financial gain. Catholic priests may say its ok to lie in order to touch little boys. If lying is forbidden and you lie that is sin and being hypocritical in that instance. However, continuing to LIVE in sin and go against what is WRITTEN in your book is HYPOCRISY.
No problem. Like I said we don't have a true figure to go on, so I can't hold this against you.
Thankyou.
That is not my entire definition. I am applying ALL senses/uses of the word to muslims in question, and words in bold denote strong points.
hy•poc•ri•sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy•poc•ri•sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.
n 1: an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction [syn: lip service] 2: insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have
False. The definition (s) provided do not require the knowledge of someones heart. All that is required is a professed belief and contrary action to that belief.
"Lip Service" is part of the definition and knowledge of the heart has nothing to do with it. ACTIONS speak louder than words, and if these people are professing that islam is the correct religion, they are being hypocrites by providing items and services that go against islam. A tree is known by the fruit it bears and hypocrites will sugarcoat their actions or make an excuse. If their actions were PURE they would NOT compromise their faith in god for monetary gain.
Possibly? Possibly? LMAO! Their actions point to sin and hypocrisy and you need to stop looking for some loophole to save you. If eating swine is bad for a muslim why sell it to non-muslims? Why not LEAD BY EXAMPLE?
Listen, if I tell you "Christianity is the right religion, I am a christian, the bible is the only book to follow, you should not worship idols", but I turn around and sell you statues of molech, marduk and astarte what does that make me?
See the above. A tree is known by the fruit that it bears.
Thats great, but what does that have to do with those PROFESSING THAT ISLAM IS THE CORRECT RELIGION, BUT LIVING A LIFE CONTRARY TO THE PROFESSED BELIEFS OR DOCTRINE/DOGMA OF ISLAM?
This depends on what religious or moral values you have. Satanist or athiests may find it perfectly ok to lie. Muslims may find it ok to lie for financial gain. Catholic priests may say its ok to lie in order to touch little boys. If lying is forbidden and you lie that is sin and being hypocritical in that instance. However, continuing to LIVE in sin and go against what is WRITTEN in your book is HYPOCRISY.
LOL im a square because I dont study religious texts?
Look shit head violence is a part of life, its human nature, it happens regardless of g0d or the devil. Its in there because humans wrote every word of every verse in the qU ran just like every other Magical story ever written. So when someone tells you islam is violent just say so what. Thats just one aspect its also other things. Don't lie because you want to come off like some fucking ultramoral messanger. LoL I'm in the slow to convert section there it is agian, rogue catagorization because your not allowed judge individuals individually. Islam is just some fucking club and it has no authority as it should not.
Look shit head violence is a part of life, its human nature, it happens regardless of g0d or the devil. Its in there because humans wrote every word of every verse in the qU ran just like every other Magical story ever written. So when someone tells you islam is violent just say so what. Thats just one aspect its also other things. Don't lie because you want to come off like some fucking ultramoral messanger. LoL I'm in the slow to convert section there it is agian, rogue catagorization because your not allowed judge individuals individually. Islam is just some fucking club and it has no authority as it should not.
ok but i wasnt trying to give an example of how all people learn, i was giving an example of how a person will learn based on observation.
but me n u got the same arguement on this subject, so lets fast forward cuz these replies are getting long.
so that means when i was a muslim, i was a hypocrit because i smoked weed and because i touched women?
u might be right but i always thought being a hypocrit is telling somebody not to do something, and then doing it, not having beliefs in something and doing the opposite.
but i guess why i was argueing this point is because me once being a muslim, i can understand that some things in islam i never gave thought to , such as marijuana, therefor i continued to smoke.
but now i think you are right in the correct way which i dont think anybody goes by which is because ISLAM is a religion, by believing in Islam, then you automatically believe that marijuana is bad.
but again, religion has been transformed and i guess i was a sinner muslim, but thats just the lack of my belief.
i do give a shit, but i also understand what you guys dont.
lol
maybe when i learn to express myself better i can make more sense, or maybe if instead of completely rejecting what i bring to you about what you call the new age and actually listening and trying to understand my point of view then you wouldnt see me for such a weirdo guy with no beliefs.
but i never said all roads lead to rome, the 2 roads would be good and evil.
you guys are just looking at religion and ONLY religion to be the roads.
u can be a good christian and have the greatest intention in all your doings , or you can be a good hindu and have the greatest intention in all your doings.
THAT is what im trying to say.
if this still doesnt make sense then would you say that being a hindu thats uneducated of what YOU know, but having the best intention in his heart the same as YOU do, then would this mean the hindu is going to hell because he hasnt come across what you know?
this is a problem i had with islam when i was a muslim also.
islam teaches that the one who never hears of "Islam" and dies will go to heaven.
but the one that just hears "ISLAM IS A RELIGION" for the first time and last time in his life, then its upon him to go seek the information about islam and become muslim or else he will go to hell for enternity?
that made me argue , ok what if this guy was a really good person, and never ever spoke,seen,heard anything evil. will he go to hell for having wrong beliefs?
ok why you send me "islamlies.com"
i aint a muslim and im not trying to defend islam.
im defending the so called sinner muslims because i was one for having a lack of islamic beleifs.
and in the next reply id like you to tell me what you think of her.
is she doing evil? good?
id just like to know what you think of her.
but me n u got the same arguement on this subject, so lets fast forward cuz these replies are getting long.
so that means when i was a muslim, i was a hypocrit because i smoked weed and because i touched women?
u might be right but i always thought being a hypocrit is telling somebody not to do something, and then doing it, not having beliefs in something and doing the opposite.
but i guess why i was argueing this point is because me once being a muslim, i can understand that some things in islam i never gave thought to , such as marijuana, therefor i continued to smoke.
but now i think you are right in the correct way which i dont think anybody goes by which is because ISLAM is a religion, by believing in Islam, then you automatically believe that marijuana is bad.
but again, religion has been transformed and i guess i was a sinner muslim, but thats just the lack of my belief.
i do give a shit, but i also understand what you guys dont.
lol
maybe when i learn to express myself better i can make more sense, or maybe if instead of completely rejecting what i bring to you about what you call the new age and actually listening and trying to understand my point of view then you wouldnt see me for such a weirdo guy with no beliefs.
but i never said all roads lead to rome, the 2 roads would be good and evil.
you guys are just looking at religion and ONLY religion to be the roads.
u can be a good christian and have the greatest intention in all your doings , or you can be a good hindu and have the greatest intention in all your doings.
THAT is what im trying to say.
if this still doesnt make sense then would you say that being a hindu thats uneducated of what YOU know, but having the best intention in his heart the same as YOU do, then would this mean the hindu is going to hell because he hasnt come across what you know?
this is a problem i had with islam when i was a muslim also.
islam teaches that the one who never hears of "Islam" and dies will go to heaven.
but the one that just hears "ISLAM IS A RELIGION" for the first time and last time in his life, then its upon him to go seek the information about islam and become muslim or else he will go to hell for enternity?
that made me argue , ok what if this guy was a really good person, and never ever spoke,seen,heard anything evil. will he go to hell for having wrong beliefs?
ok why you send me "islamlies.com"
i aint a muslim and im not trying to defend islam.
im defending the so called sinner muslims because i was one for having a lack of islamic beleifs.
and in the next reply id like you to tell me what you think of her.
is she doing evil? good?
id just like to know what you think of her.
^BEIN' "gOOD" AIN'T ENOUgH. THERE'S ONLY ONE TRUTH AND THE REST ARE LIES. (gOD)'S WORD WILL REACH THE MEEK ONES THAT ARE SEEKIN' HIM. YOU ARE TRYIN' TO JUSTIFY SOMEBODY BEIN' WHOLEHEARTEDLY "gOOD". WITH EVERY INTENTION TO CONFORM TO HIS BELIEFS INTEgRILY. TRUTH TRANSCENDS THRU CULTURE, RACE, RELIgION, AND POLITICS.
Actually, you were not giving an example based on observation. You were giving an example based on EXPERIENCE. I can watch you eat all day long, but does that mean I feel YOUR hunger? No.
Were you professing islam as the correct religion for all? Were you knowledgable in what was forbidden in the quran?
This IS a form of hypocrisy. Listen, if muslims believe pork should not be eaten by muslims, why should non-muslims who have the potential to be muslims be subjected to eating it? If I tell you THIS is the right religion I should not introduce "stumbling blocks" to deter you from that path.
I understand this.
Listen, when you smoke weed who are you smoking it for? You. When it makes you high who feels the effects? You. You are harming YOUR body by doing these things (I am NOT debating the harms or non harms of weed.) Smoking weed has an effect on your body. Selling alcohol, tobacco, porn and pig skins have an effect on the bodies of OTHERS. Are you still with me?
Hemp, let me tell you something. I don't know it all, and I don't claim to know it all, but when it comes to religion and beliefs I have practically heard it all. I have a REASON for completely rejecting things. I do not see you for a weirdo guy with no beliefs. I see you as a weirdo guy WITH weirdo beliefs (JK!)
I understand this, however all roads STILL lead to rome because you are supporting this belief with the INTENTIONS of others. If you don't understand it dwell on it and toss it back and fourth before you reply to it.
No, because coming across what I know (or not coming across it) doesn't cause anyone to go to hell.
Are you asking these questions in the context of islam? If so, I believe you just answered your question.
I gave that link because I glimpsed around her site and it was a good link. However, I am not attacking the "sinner muslims". I am attacking the HYPOCRITICAL muslims. You CAN be a sinner muslim without being a hypocritical muslim.
So far I have no opinion of her except that her muslim link was something I endorse. I listened to a couple of her audio streams an dturned them off ebcause it sounded like a robot was reading the material.
Were you professing islam as the correct religion for all? Were you knowledgable in what was forbidden in the quran?
This IS a form of hypocrisy. Listen, if muslims believe pork should not be eaten by muslims, why should non-muslims who have the potential to be muslims be subjected to eating it? If I tell you THIS is the right religion I should not introduce "stumbling blocks" to deter you from that path.
I understand this.
Listen, when you smoke weed who are you smoking it for? You. When it makes you high who feels the effects? You. You are harming YOUR body by doing these things (I am NOT debating the harms or non harms of weed.) Smoking weed has an effect on your body. Selling alcohol, tobacco, porn and pig skins have an effect on the bodies of OTHERS. Are you still with me?
Hemp, let me tell you something. I don't know it all, and I don't claim to know it all, but when it comes to religion and beliefs I have practically heard it all. I have a REASON for completely rejecting things. I do not see you for a weirdo guy with no beliefs. I see you as a weirdo guy WITH weirdo beliefs (JK!)
I understand this, however all roads STILL lead to rome because you are supporting this belief with the INTENTIONS of others. If you don't understand it dwell on it and toss it back and fourth before you reply to it.
No, because coming across what I know (or not coming across it) doesn't cause anyone to go to hell.
Are you asking these questions in the context of islam? If so, I believe you just answered your question.
I gave that link because I glimpsed around her site and it was a good link. However, I am not attacking the "sinner muslims". I am attacking the HYPOCRITICAL muslims. You CAN be a sinner muslim without being a hypocritical muslim.
So far I have no opinion of her except that her muslim link was something I endorse. I listened to a couple of her audio streams an dturned them off ebcause it sounded like a robot was reading the material.
so when u experience something you dont observe?
you just DO ?
your right tho i should have said "based on experience" but either way, once
you experience something, you learn from what you observed.
yes, but like you said, IF you tell me.
so that goes back to the liquor shop owners, are they telling the people that ISLAM is the way or are they just minding their own business selling alcohol?
but selling all those things again goes back to what i mentioned ^ there.
lol
ok so you just lost me again.(or yourself)
so now you are saying i CAN be a sinner and not a hypocrite?
so i guess it all goes back to if the alcohol seller tells the buyer that islam is the correct way and NOT if the seller is a muslim or not.
because i thought your first arguement was about the seller being a muslim and selling alcohol to the people.
but stop me if im confused
you just DO ?
your right tho i should have said "based on experience" but either way, once
you experience something, you learn from what you observed.
yes, but like you said, IF you tell me.
so that goes back to the liquor shop owners, are they telling the people that ISLAM is the way or are they just minding their own business selling alcohol?
but selling all those things again goes back to what i mentioned ^ there.
lol
ok so you just lost me again.(or yourself)
so now you are saying i CAN be a sinner and not a hypocrite?
so i guess it all goes back to if the alcohol seller tells the buyer that islam is the correct way and NOT if the seller is a muslim or not.
because i thought your first arguement was about the seller being a muslim and selling alcohol to the people.
but stop me if im confused
After further looking into the word "hypocrisy" and reading Heresy and Miggidy's posts, I want to change my stance towards Muslim liquor store owners. Instead of replying to you point by point, I'm going to just make it all in one. Alcohol is completely forbidden in Islam in every possible way. In fact, it is forbidden in 8 ways: buying, selling, consuming, producing, financing, touching, transporting, (I forgot the 8th way). It is a major sin to sell it to others. Forget trying to find excuses and loopholes for these people and trying to analyze the word "hypocrit" in depth. Wrong is wrong. There is no denying it. If a person had true iman and fear of Allah, he would not be selling alcohol and others products that are not permissible in Islam. Islam means submission, submission to the will of Allah. There are no ifs, and, or buts about it. A follower must have firm belief in everything that is written in the Quran and hadith. You can't pick and choose what you want to follow and what you don't want to follow. Therefore, a Muslim must believe that alcohol is completely haraam. If he believes that alcohol is haraam, but still sells it, he is committing a major sin and being a hypocrit to himself. Like I've said before, a person that does this does not have very strong iman. There's no point in trying to defend people that commit this major sin. And there's no point in trying to go so deep into analyzing a word. Thats not the real point of this discussion. It is what it is. But if I'm wrong, I'm not too proud to admit that I'm wrong.
One point that I do want to discuss, however, is how many Muslims actually own a liquor store. In an earlier post, you said "I do know 90% of Oaklands liquor stores are owned by muslims." Do you actually know this for sure or is it just something you are estimating based on observation? I am not saying that you are incorrect and I would not be surprised if that number was accurate, but I am just curious. I happen to live in Marin County. I probably know about 300 Muslims that live here. I know of only 1 Arab (Muslim) that owns a liquor store here. I know other Indians (non-muslims) that own liquor stores, but only 1 Muslim. These Indians could easily be mistaken for Muslims by other people. So in Marin County, over 90% of liquor stores are not owned by Muslims. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think a significant percentage of the overall Muslim population in America owns liquor stores. Even in Oakland, there are thousands of Muslims. Most of those Muslims don't own liquor stores. I've been to the mosques in Oakland and know Muslims in Oakland. I've also been to liquor stores in Oakland owned by Muslims. Obviously, I don't have the exact figures, but I am very confident that Muslim liquor store owners make up a very small percentage of overall Muslims in both Oakland and America as a whole.
One point that I do want to discuss, however, is how many Muslims actually own a liquor store. In an earlier post, you said "I do know 90% of Oaklands liquor stores are owned by muslims." Do you actually know this for sure or is it just something you are estimating based on observation? I am not saying that you are incorrect and I would not be surprised if that number was accurate, but I am just curious. I happen to live in Marin County. I probably know about 300 Muslims that live here. I know of only 1 Arab (Muslim) that owns a liquor store here. I know other Indians (non-muslims) that own liquor stores, but only 1 Muslim. These Indians could easily be mistaken for Muslims by other people. So in Marin County, over 90% of liquor stores are not owned by Muslims. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think a significant percentage of the overall Muslim population in America owns liquor stores. Even in Oakland, there are thousands of Muslims. Most of those Muslims don't own liquor stores. I've been to the mosques in Oakland and know Muslims in Oakland. I've also been to liquor stores in Oakland owned by Muslims. Obviously, I don't have the exact figures, but I am very confident that Muslim liquor store owners make up a very small percentage of overall Muslims in both Oakland and America as a whole.
I knew you would come to your senses bro 
You gotta play it down the middle, even when a debate involves your own people. You just gotta call it like it is.
We need to indentify our mistakes in order to keep from repeating them.
Having said that, I'd like to go back on topic with this thread.
The Mohammed pictures and the Muslim world's reaction to them.
Most Muslims were passive, while a few were "beat the shit out of the infidels" about it.
Looking at that, and the whole capitalist crusade of the Arab/Muslim world;
this is really a clash between civilizations isn't it?
You gotta play it down the middle, even when a debate involves your own people. You just gotta call it like it is.
We need to indentify our mistakes in order to keep from repeating them.
Having said that, I'd like to go back on topic with this thread.
The Mohammed pictures and the Muslim world's reaction to them.
Most Muslims were passive, while a few were "beat the shit out of the infidels" about it.
Looking at that, and the whole capitalist crusade of the Arab/Muslim world;
this is really a clash between civilizations isn't it?
