Marx Was Right All Along

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Nov 24, 2003
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#21
Oh gee, let's see here, well we can start with over half the planet's population living in poverty perhaps? It's failure to provide the vast majority of humanity with the material means for a dignified existence?


1 - But capitalism has no goal to raise the worlds population out of poverty, so it did not and cannot fail in achieving that goal.


2 - Isn't "dignified existence" an extremely subjective idea? What is an dignified existence? The people in America are going to give you an extremely different answer than the people in Liberia. Not to mention a relatively short time ago our species didn't even have many of the things we would now be quick to call necessary to a dignified existence.....so how do we define it?
 
May 9, 2002
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#22
2 - Isn't "dignified existence" an extremely subjective idea? What is an dignified existence? The people in America are going to give you an extremely different answer than the people in Liberia. Not to mention a relatively short time ago our species didn't even have many of the things we would now be quick to call necessary to a dignified existence.....so how do we define it?
Of course, one could also argue that if it were not for capitalism, we may not have some of those things...thus rendering them unessacary becuase they may not even exist.
 
May 13, 2002
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#23
1 - But capitalism has no goal to raise the worlds population out of poverty, so it did not and cannot fail in achieving that goal.
So you're saying no economic system can fail (communism, capitalism, etc.)? They have no goals whatsoever they just exist?

2 - Isn't "dignified existence" an extremely subjective idea? What is an dignified existence?
the basic common needs of man
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#25
So you're saying no economic system can fail (communism, capitalism, etc.)? They have no goals whatsoever they just exist?

The distinction being capitalism is simply an economic system while communism is a more complex combination of economic system and political system.

Capitalism by definition can exist anytime/anywhere there is private ownership and land rights, whether it is being encouraged or not.

Hypothetically, communism could spontaneously occur in a society, but that would be about as likely as everyone driving the same speed on the freeway without enforced speed limits.

When our ancestors used to exchange goods between themselves and other tribes and let free market supply & demand decide what each person was willing to exchange, that was basic capitalism before it was even defined.


the basic common needs of man
That doesn't really answer the question because the common needs of man have been met for thousands of years by simple items derived from nature. People could have their needs met by a cave, clean water, and food; but I don't think you would be content that their "common needs" are being met.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#27
It could be said that it was implemented in the wrong way, or perhaps wrong places. Karl Marx said communism would first come out of an advanced Capitalist country, such as the US, after capitalism uses up it's useful purpose. There is an arguement Communism was doomed to fail because it was implemented first in a backwards country.

I completely disagree when you say it's "impossible to make it happen in practice," I think it's the inevitable as we advance.
At present it impossible. If we all somehow miraculously finally grow up, maybe it is possible, but right now it isn't
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#28
So you're saying no economic system can fail (communism, capitalism, etc.)? They have no goals whatsoever they just exist?



the basic common needs of man
The problem with the "basic common needs of man" is that we always want more. We can't imagine living even without computers these days yet people didn't even have electricity 200 years ago and they were not missing it.


some interesting data:

 
May 13, 2002
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#29
At present it impossible. If we all somehow miraculously finally grow up, maybe it is possible, but right now it isn't
Well no one in their right mind has ever said we could jump into purely communism overnight, in fact it was said to be a long process. And since conditions create consciousness as the conditions slowly change so to will consciousness. The transition from Capitalism to Communism (i.e socialism) would slowly create a different way of thinking as the Capitalist values decay.
 
May 9, 2002
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#30
Well no one in their right mind has ever said we could jump into purely communism overnight, in fact it was said to be a long process. And since conditions create consciousness as the conditions slowly change so to will consciousness. The transition from Capitalism to Communism (i.e socialism) would slowly create a different way of thinking as the Capitalist values decay.
The only problem is..becuase capitalism was and has been implemented for such a long period, you ouwld have to de-program and re-prgoram and entire population to beleive that we all need to equal. People want more, no matter how you slice it. People see others with more and with the freedom to HAVE more, they will yearn for it. You ever wonder why North Korea is darn near completely shut off from the rest of thw rodl? So the citizens wont see what the rest of the world has and want that (in theory anyway).

You would have to bascially re-wire the entire nation to think outside of something that capitalism created: greed and envy.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#31
Since you guys are talking about the basic human needs, is it possible that some of you can look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and come up with a compare and contrast to capitalism? Also, do you think it would be wrong to suggest or imply that many people in america have inverted the Hierarchy of Needs and share some blame in what is going on?
 
May 13, 2002
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#32
The only problem is..becuase capitalism was and has been implemented for such a long period
What??? Capitalism is a relatively new thing here. Were talking a couple hundred or few hundred years depending on how you look at it. You (and others) act as if human society will never change and never has changed. Think social evolution and human evolution in general. Try to picture 50 years from now. Then 100. Then 500. Then 1000. Will society and mankind not change, will capitalistic values always be part of society???

You ever wonder why North Korea is darn near completely shut off from the rest of thw rodl? So the citizens wont see what the rest of the world has and want that (in theory anyway).
Because N. Korea is ran by a fuckin nutcase??? Maybe that has somethin to do with it

You would have to bascially re-wire the entire nation to think outside of something that capitalism created: greed and envy.
And that is not impossible as society and mankind advance in the future.

How does revolution come about in the first place comrade? How does a strong desire for change begin? Why are systems overthrown, why does society change in general? Nothing is constant comrade. Just because we live in a society where greed, envy, etc are common does not mean they will continue to exist in the future.
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#33
The problem with the "basic common needs of man" is that we always want more. We can't imagine living even without computers these days yet people didn't even have electricity 200 years ago and they were not missing it.

I posted this quote from Alain de Botton in another thread but what you said reminded of the truth in it.

"Humans were not accidentally unhappy, they were so by design, because their desires always outstripped their expectations and because their knowledge was greater than their power to change things."
 
May 9, 2002
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#34
What??? Capitalism is a relatively new thing here. Were talking a couple hundred or few hundred years depending on how you look at it.
Im sorry..how is a couple or few hundred years NOT considered a long time? Relatively speaking, you and i have been here approximately 30 years. If you dont think 2-300 years is a long time, you are out of your mind. Not to mention, technology has really spread rapidly throughout the masses for only about 20 years or so, meaning cutting edge technology is available to you and i. Just think, 15 years ago, cell phones were the size of home phones and were attached to a fuckin briefcase...now they fit in our pockets.

You (and others) act as if human society will never change and never has changed.
Fair enough...and would say it doesnt to an extent. Did civilizations not try to take over the world prior to the US? How about storming a vilage taking their goods, including currency? Why did they do this? Is this any different than someone robbing another at gunpoint in an alley? Someone is TAKING away what is considered valuable. Whether that be blankets amde from buffalo kink or an iPod.

Think social evolution and human evolution in general. Try to picture 50 years from now. Then 100. Then 500. Then 1000. Will society and mankind not change, will capitalistic values always be part of society???
No one can know that...thats the issue here. The argument is if humans are hard wired to be envious and greedy DUE to systems like capitalism, or did greed and envy BREED capitalism directly? If that is the case, how can EVERYONE just say "youre right, i dont need this premium microwave or this Benz". You really think in 50 years, if socialism is implemted, that EVERYONE would be content driving similar 4-door sedans and making the same amount of money? Thats why i say you would have to re-prgoram humans in thinking that being content with the same as everyone else is natural.

Because N. Korea is ran by a fuckin nutcase??? Maybe that has somethin to do with it
Who happens to be communist...no? I am not implying that they are mutually exclusive, but he runs a communist government.

And that is not impossible as society and mankind advance in the future.
Nothing is impossible, but again...NOBODY knows.

How does revolution come about in the first place comrade? How does a strong desire for change begin? Why are systems overthrown, why does society change in general? Nothing is constant.
Agreed. However, the systems that you are suggesting, have been overthrown (USSR), are viewed as freedom hating (N. Korea), or just considered stobborn and unwanted (Cuba). Im sure the media has a nice hand in that, but it stands as such none the less. I mean, are people HAPPY in those systems? Do they prefer communism over other forms LIKE capitalism? I have absoutely no clue. Do you?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#35
I don't think any government has ever truly been implemented communism.

I Pukokeki Ioulo Momu said:

You really think in 50 years, if socialism is implemted, that EVERYONE would be content driving similar 4-door sedans and making the same amount of money? Thats why i say you would have to re-prgoram humans in thinking that being content with the same as everyone else is natural.
Personally, I think this is possible if there is something that forces a change or if companies impliment new business models.
 
May 9, 2002
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#36
Personally, I think this is possible if there is something that forces a change or if companies impliment new business models.
I think this is the word that truly scares people. The word "force" is hard to say in the same sentence as "free will". Forcing people to do certain things after the fact they had freedom to choose prior, will be hard to put in action, IMO that is. I guess it really depends on what you are asking of the people.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#37
I think this is the word that truly scares people. The word "force" is hard to say in the same sentence as "free will". Forcing people to do certain things after the fact they had freedom to choose prior, will be hard to put in action, IMO that is. I guess it really depends on what you are asking of the people.
Nah, I'm talking about an event/situation that forces people to change. I'm referring to something like total economic collapse, nuclear war, a natural disaster that wipes out a large part of the population, etc.
 
May 13, 2002
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#38
Im sorry..how is a couple or few hundred years NOT considered a long time?
My god man, are you serious? How long has mankind existed? How long have societies/civilization been around for? 10,000+ years?? What was before capitalism? feudalism? How long was that around? So I ask you, is capitalism a relatively knew idea or not?

Not to mention, technology has really spread rapidly throughout the masses for only about 20 years or so, meaning cutting edge technology is available to you and i. Just think, 15 years ago, cell phones were the size of home phones and were attached to a fuckin briefcase...now they fit in our pockets.
The advancement of technology goes hand-in-hand with my way of thinking.


Fair enough...and would say it doesnt to an extent. Did civilizations not try to take over the world prior to the US? How about storming a vilage taking their goods, including currency? Why did they do this? Is this any different than someone robbing another at gunpoint in an alley? Someone is TAKING away what is considered valuable. Whether that be blankets amde from buffalo kink or an iPod.
I really do not understand your point here.


No one can know that...thats the issue here.
No actually the entire point of this thread was Karl Marx was right. The study of social evolution, of society, the understanding of history such as understanding how capitalism replaced feudalism and coming to the conclusion that communism will replace capitalism. Stay on topic.

The argument is if humans are hard wired to be envious and greedy DUE to systems like capitalism, or did greed and envy BREED capitalism directly? If that is the case, how can EVERYONE just say "youre right, i dont need this premium microwave or this Benz". You really think in 50 years, if socialism is implemted, that EVERYONE would be content driving similar 4-door sedans and making the same amount of money?
There is no rule that says you cannot have a premium microwave, a nice car, flat screen TV, etc. under communism. Again, communism is an economic system, a way which will allow a society based on common ownership and control of the means of production, i.e rather than a small rich layer of society controlling the wealth and exploiting the workers, the workers would democratically own the wealth and make decisions.

Further, humans are not hard wired for greed. Like all things in nature, human consciousness and society are always in a state of change. Remember what I said, "conditions determine consciousness". Shit, humans only got to where we are today by being social creatures and the hunter/gatherer societies that existed long before were what allowed mankind to survive. On the grand scheme of things, or looking at the long timeline of mankind, the majority of human existence didn't even exist classes, and we lived communally.

Thats why i say you would have to re-prgoram humans in thinking that being content with the same as everyone else is natural.
And you fail to understand there is a process, there must be a change of consciousness, and there have been countless examples of this, shit even in the us 30 or so years ago, during the 60's and 70's there existed a revolutionary view, a new level of consciousness throughout the masses that did not really exist prior.

Who happens to be communist...no? I am not implying that they are mutually exclusive, but he runs a communist government.
You just killed your arguement by saying "communist government." Communism under Marxist terminology is "a classless, stateless and oppression-free society."

North Korea is a very distorted, fucked up version of a totalitarian Stalinist-like dictatorship. Very anti-marxist in every way.



Nothing is impossible, but again...NOBODY knows.



Agreed. However, the systems that you are suggesting, have been overthrown (USSR), are viewed as freedom hating (N. Korea), or just considered stobborn and unwanted (Cuba). Im sure the media has a nice hand in that, but it stands as such none the less. I mean, are people HAPPY in those systems? Do they prefer communism over other forms LIKE capitalism? I have absoutely no clue. Do you?[/QUOTE]

Agreed. However, the systems that you are suggesting, have been overthrown (USSR), are viewed as freedom hating (N. Korea), or just considered stobborn and unwanted (Cuba). Im sure the media has a nice hand in that, but it stands as such none the less. I mean, are people HAPPY in those systems? Do they prefer communism over other forms LIKE capitalism? I have absoutely no clue. Do you?
Have you learned nothing from my posts over the years?

Russia degenerated into a totalitarian, Stalinist dictatorship, which in turn changed the shape and face of "communism." As bad as it was, many people and countries found Stalinism a much better alternative to being on the wrong side of capitalism (those countries being exploited the most by the powerful capitalist countries).

I have posted countless times and provided links on how/why Russia turned out the way it did. Here is everything you need to know:

Russia: How the Bureaucracy Seized Power

The Revolution Betrayed by Leon Trotsky

Stalinism and Bolshevism By Leon Trotsky

If you cannot learn any new insight and basic understanding from the above links then I don't know how else to help.

Further, and as I already mentioned, it was said by Marx that Communism would replace Capitalism, it would first come from an advanced Capitalist country, like the US for example (workers revolution, move towards socialism to communism yada yada yada). Some people believe that Communism (in Russia) was doomed to fail from the start because Russia was a very backwards country and not the least bit advanced or industrialized, so it was inevitable a corrupt bureaucracy or a Stalin would eventially seize power, etc.
 
Nov 24, 2003
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#39
So I ask you, is capitalism a relatively knew idea or not?


No it is not. The definition for capitalism may relatively new, but the interaction that the definition describes is not new.

Just like racism existed far before the definition of racism, capitalism existed long before we defined it.