Justice denied
- Thread starter 2-0-Sixx
- Start date
Not at all. But this is the reality of the world we are living in. If 10 percent or 20 percent of the detainees are innocent, it's sad, but that is the nature of things. The US is violating the rights of what, 500 men? Compared to people and nations who violate the rights of millions of people on a daily basis? I can't even see how someone could make a direct comparison. Yes, we have installed puppet dictators, and yes, we have committed violations, but the U.S, simply because of the large amount of publicity and transparency it recieves, plays a three times cleaner game than anywhere else is the world.
Cruel, unjustified detention, and a lack of lawyers and (American) justice is unfortunate, but I would challenge 206 or SOLO to find an interrogation/detention method that is one hundred percent accurate, finds the correct and relevant people every time, and quickly extracts all relevant information so that they can be on their way.
You think the U.S. violates human rights? What about Jordan? What about Sudan? What about Omar? UAE? Uganda? Malaysia? Indonesia? NK?
Regardless of the crimes we are guilty of, we are simply in a different stratosphere regarding human rights.
If we held the US Government to the same "nerf bat" standard it has to use on people in the U.S., "terrorists", etc., would love to be captured. Shit they would run towards us. What you are asking is that a paper tiger enforce rule among lions. How can a completely deballed Government achieve results? In a bubble-land, or a vacuum-world, where everything is black and white, yes, the US would stop the detention, as well as all human rights abuses. Will this create results, though? I doubt it.
See but that's the thing. US Govt. conspiratorialists love to point out small incidents of US govt. corruption, when in reality any third-world or second-world country, be it Mexico, any African nation, any southeast Asian state, or China, has an abysmally worse record.
How many people have been killed in the name of Socialism, 206's grand cause? The count is upwards of 200 million. So keep that sickle in your sig and be proud...your homeboys have done well.
In any case, the US, in supporting Israel, is the great devil in the minds of many or most Middle Eastern people. Bush has escalated the game with his bullshit war as well. Basically we are fucked no matter hat we do at this point. We pull out, and Iraq will blame us for leaving their country in shambles. We stay in, and we are an occupying force. The Isreal-Palestine conflict may never, ever be resolved. Some say it is a territory struggle, but for the most part, it is about the mere existence of the Jews, and their proximity to a holy land. The US may never recover in terms of worldwide opinion. The small amount of errors we have made do not even figure in the minds of Islamists and anti-US advocates. We are fucked no matter what we do.
For example, will 206 ever support a non-socialist US? Of course not, he uses it as evidence to support a dematerializing of the current system. We are basically fucked in his mind. This is the same ituation we are in worldwide. Percieved slights, whether real or not, matter little.
So I mean honestly 206, keep that sickle up in your sig, with the 140+ million death count inflicted by the regimes of the Soviet Union, as well as its "satellite" states, and be proud of that shit, but make it a conspiracy when the US Govt holds prisoners of war without lawyers.
Compared to almost any country in the World, the US has a good ass human rights record. Imagine if any African country, any Southeast Asian country, etc., was the size and wielded the power of the US. Would shit have all been blown up already or what?
Compared to almost any country in the World, the US has a good ass human rights record. Imagine if any African country, any Southeast Asian country, etc., was the size and wielded the power of the US. Would shit have all been blown up already or what?
The 200m death toll has been generally supported in a number of works. Depending on who you ask, estimates range from between 120 to around 200 million. The source I quoted was The Rise and Fall of the Soviet Empire which is generally considered a very thorough and valid source.
And as far "capitalism" causing more deaths...for one thing, capitalism in many forms has been around far longer than communism, which is a historically "new" system in the grand scheme of economy. Systems approximating Communism or Socialism existed in tribes and several indigenous cultures, but the nature of many indigenous non-European and non-Asian cultures is a great distribution of different tribal/feudal/communal/capitalist systems among a geographically small region.
Indigenous tribes in most areas of the world often differ in large or small degrees even within the scope of a few miles. Contrast this with China, Korea, England, France, etc. where you would find a standardized national identity, economic system, and mode of living in an area of hundreds or thousands of miles, and you see that Communism historically has not had a major base from which to draw reference of existance. The works of Marx, etc., generally considered the cornerstones of the philosophy, generally began picking up steam around the late 1800s-early 1900s. Worldwide, communism, or related variations, constitute a fairly small portion of nations worldwide, probably less than 10 percent, unless you regard moderately socialist countries in the same box, which would raise the figure to around 30 to 40 percent.
However, in its small time span, communism's failed implementation has brought about utterly deadly results. Capitalist countries, or capitalism, may have caused a higher number of deaths worldwide, if you include every war, conflict, and government-sponsored killing occuring in the time span, andinclude every Capitalist country out there, a sample of countries much higher than the communist sample. The other distinction is deaths in capitalist countries for which the government is responsible usually entails the deaths of outside entities or those considered "alien" to foreign interests.
While this does sometimes include indigenous peoples, technically a "member" of the country which is responsible for death, the bulk of capitalist govt. fatalities are for the most part people of other nations or areas.
Contrast this with communism, which historically achieves power by the mass slaughtering of their own people. Intellectuals, members of opposition parties, etc., are the first to get the axe, along with anyone considered dissident to the government, or for some reason caught in a wide swath of "cleansing". Historically, should a nation go communist, or a communist party achieve power, the gun, not the book, or the debate, is the agent for silencing dissent. Mao and Lenin did not regard justice in the slightest. Whatever 206 will tell you about the purity of the system, the reality of communism in the world is that you can not get someone to stop wishing for things for himself, or his family. The Chinese government has, to some effect, been able to actually achieve the Communist goal and convince the masses of the greater effect their sacrifices yield, but many also attribute this to the Chinese attitude, which generally does not view the amassing of wealth as the sole priority in life.
The mass corruption inherent in all communist societies, in communist logic in general, invariably leads to protest. And the government must always silence that protest. And to a government which is already telling the masses that they must constantly sacrifice their own intentions, it is hard to silence protest with more rhetoric. It's much easier to pull out a gun and shoot you in the head. The reality of freedom and justice in communist societies is seen in Tienemmen Square, as a Tank rolls over a lone protester.
How many capitalist governments or capitalist incantations have we had in this world? Possibly hundreds, if you count each regime and government that used a seperate economic system. And this tradition of capitalism extends since before 0 A.D. How many communist governments, or incantations have we had? Possibly 30, 50, 70? And they have been responsible, in their short lifespan, for piles upon piles of mass graves, of literally hundreds of millions murdered. The numbers dont stack up. If you take 10 capitalist countries, and 10 Communist countries, and match death counts, the Communists would win by light years.
And as far "capitalism" causing more deaths...for one thing, capitalism in many forms has been around far longer than communism, which is a historically "new" system in the grand scheme of economy. Systems approximating Communism or Socialism existed in tribes and several indigenous cultures, but the nature of many indigenous non-European and non-Asian cultures is a great distribution of different tribal/feudal/communal/capitalist systems among a geographically small region.
Indigenous tribes in most areas of the world often differ in large or small degrees even within the scope of a few miles. Contrast this with China, Korea, England, France, etc. where you would find a standardized national identity, economic system, and mode of living in an area of hundreds or thousands of miles, and you see that Communism historically has not had a major base from which to draw reference of existance. The works of Marx, etc., generally considered the cornerstones of the philosophy, generally began picking up steam around the late 1800s-early 1900s. Worldwide, communism, or related variations, constitute a fairly small portion of nations worldwide, probably less than 10 percent, unless you regard moderately socialist countries in the same box, which would raise the figure to around 30 to 40 percent.
However, in its small time span, communism's failed implementation has brought about utterly deadly results. Capitalist countries, or capitalism, may have caused a higher number of deaths worldwide, if you include every war, conflict, and government-sponsored killing occuring in the time span, andinclude every Capitalist country out there, a sample of countries much higher than the communist sample. The other distinction is deaths in capitalist countries for which the government is responsible usually entails the deaths of outside entities or those considered "alien" to foreign interests.
While this does sometimes include indigenous peoples, technically a "member" of the country which is responsible for death, the bulk of capitalist govt. fatalities are for the most part people of other nations or areas.
Contrast this with communism, which historically achieves power by the mass slaughtering of their own people. Intellectuals, members of opposition parties, etc., are the first to get the axe, along with anyone considered dissident to the government, or for some reason caught in a wide swath of "cleansing". Historically, should a nation go communist, or a communist party achieve power, the gun, not the book, or the debate, is the agent for silencing dissent. Mao and Lenin did not regard justice in the slightest. Whatever 206 will tell you about the purity of the system, the reality of communism in the world is that you can not get someone to stop wishing for things for himself, or his family. The Chinese government has, to some effect, been able to actually achieve the Communist goal and convince the masses of the greater effect their sacrifices yield, but many also attribute this to the Chinese attitude, which generally does not view the amassing of wealth as the sole priority in life.
The mass corruption inherent in all communist societies, in communist logic in general, invariably leads to protest. And the government must always silence that protest. And to a government which is already telling the masses that they must constantly sacrifice their own intentions, it is hard to silence protest with more rhetoric. It's much easier to pull out a gun and shoot you in the head. The reality of freedom and justice in communist societies is seen in Tienemmen Square, as a Tank rolls over a lone protester.
How many capitalist governments or capitalist incantations have we had in this world? Possibly hundreds, if you count each regime and government that used a seperate economic system. And this tradition of capitalism extends since before 0 A.D. How many communist governments, or incantations have we had? Possibly 30, 50, 70? And they have been responsible, in their short lifespan, for piles upon piles of mass graves, of literally hundreds of millions murdered. The numbers dont stack up. If you take 10 capitalist countries, and 10 Communist countries, and match death counts, the Communists would win by light years.
N
I'm a latecomer to the thread but I'll have to say that Dicx is correct in this case. Although I believe that in times such as these we need to give up a few civil liberties (as long as it is stipulated to be temporary) - this is not acceptable.
Already Brain Dead seems to advocate a pretty stupid theory which reeks of ends justifying means.
Your burning hatred for muslims aside - I'm going to concede your assumption here and just say for arguments sake that everyone in Afghanistan is a wife murdering terrorist.
Be that as it may but the US judicial system is based around treating potentially evil people with fairness. To put it in terms you can understand - two wrongs do not make a right. Raping rapists and torturing torturers only breeds anarchy. These rules of speedy trial and due process aren't supposed to be particular to the US. They are supposed to be Universal - which is why we are invading countries in the first place - to enforce rules which we deem compulsory on everyone (regardless of their personal values) so it works both ways.
The founding fathers of this country would spit in your face for saying such a thing.
Already Brain Dead seems to advocate a pretty stupid theory which reeks of ends justifying means.
Your burning hatred for muslims aside - I'm going to concede your assumption here and just say for arguments sake that everyone in Afghanistan is a wife murdering terrorist.
Be that as it may but the US judicial system is based around treating potentially evil people with fairness. To put it in terms you can understand - two wrongs do not make a right. Raping rapists and torturing torturers only breeds anarchy. These rules of speedy trial and due process aren't supposed to be particular to the US. They are supposed to be Universal - which is why we are invading countries in the first place - to enforce rules which we deem compulsory on everyone (regardless of their personal values) so it works both ways.
The founding fathers of this country would spit in your face for saying such a thing.
N
Stop backpedalling. You stated originally:
You pompously asserted that the US was perfectly justified in their human rights violations. When you were called on it, you dropped your argument entierly. "Hey guys yeah we commit violations, but other countires commit more!" something far more PC. Stop being a pussy, either concede your argument or continue to argue it exactly as how you originally presented it.
They're only good in your eyes because you wrote them. I found it quite fucking boring. Nefar came with some outrageous claim that capitalist nations slaughtered more (implying innocent) people than communist nations. Then you proceeded to bore everyone to death contesting his ignorance.
Long ass posts don't necessarily denote quality conversation faggot.
You pompously asserted that the US was perfectly justified in their human rights violations. When you were called on it, you dropped your argument entierly. "Hey guys yeah we commit violations, but other countires commit more!" something far more PC. Stop being a pussy, either concede your argument or continue to argue it exactly as how you originally presented it.
They're only good in your eyes because you wrote them. I found it quite fucking boring. Nefar came with some outrageous claim that capitalist nations slaughtered more (implying innocent) people than communist nations. Then you proceeded to bore everyone to death contesting his ignorance.
Long ass posts don't necessarily denote quality conversation faggot.
"The Rise and Fall of the Soviet Empire"....it is NOT "generally considered a very thorough and valid source." in fact the book doesn't contribute anything new to studies of Soviet Union, in fact the only thing that it does is make USSR seem bad from the first to the last chapter.
i was talking about Karl Marx influcenced countries, NOT tribal. and incidents from last century.
let me just say this....in a book called "Black book of Communism" it states that commuism killed 100 million people...lets say the book is correct. IF you loook at the famine that happen in India (democratic capitalism) from 1945-80 that alone killed 100 million people.
i was talking about Karl Marx influcenced countries, NOT tribal. and incidents from last century.
let me just say this....in a book called "Black book of Communism" it states that commuism killed 100 million people...lets say the book is correct. IF you loook at the famine that happen in India (democratic capitalism) from 1945-80 that alone killed 100 million people.
Wrong. I stuck to it from the start. Racial targeting is an unfortunate eventuality/method, but how could it even apply here? In a basically monoethnic country, they are targeted for being what, an Afghani? Does that even apply in a war situation? Or did 206 assume every target of the war was racially targeted, that the whole war was a racial statement/discriminatory action. I say, personally, if you have 2000 people, and you have a substantial tip that "The perp is an Indian male", are you going to racially discriminate? Fuck yes you will. It will save your time and money. What's funny about alot of the people on this board is they will support racial targeting in making "white people" statements like "Eminem is only popular because he shows nerd whiteboy hicks that they can be accepted by the streets too". Which I totally agree with, but anytime the party in question is in opposition to the US Govt or the Republican party, etc. the enemy of your enemy becomes your friend and the US is this huge human rights abuser.
See this would be applicable if the world were black and white. Just because I justify shooting one man in the head does not mean I justify shooting everyone in the McDonalds. The fact that I attempted to set in relief the environment from which these "innocent racially targeted victims" come from does not deter from or contrast my view.
My fault. I felt the need to address such stupidity.
And making stupid ass rhyming names for everyone on the board does not make you a comic genius.
Oh my fuckin god. I have to hold back on this. My stomach is ready to hurt from laughter. The USSR made itself look bad historically, no book will ever change that. Show me a book that made the USSR look good, and I will read it.
In any case, keep living in your la-la land world where communism can work. Among the educated it's basically joke economics. Everyone who is anyone laughs at the theory that communism will someday be properly implemented. Only the most BS liberal professor will teach you some bullshit like that. Like I said before, it could work in 1st or 2nd World countries, or on a small scale, but not with a country like America.
Then you have an even smaller scale to work with...and "Karl Marx" influenced countries have historically persuaded people with a gun to the head...I don't even see how you can contend this.
You are talking about the great Bengali famine of 1943, correct? And the many subsequent Indian famines? There were a serious number of factors that contributed, including price gouging, the Japanese invasion of Burma, the price of rice, etc. And yes, the government had some say in the issue, but for the most part the populace deemed the govt. useless and ineffectual, not deliberately out to kill people.
And the generally accepted figure is between 20 to 30 million deaths. A high price, for sure, but how many people starved under Communism? None? You really would be a foolish idealist if you thought so. My ex-girl was from Russia...interview some Russian immigrants predating 1985 and you'll hear some interesting stories.
And there is a big difference between a famine, and marching people out in the village square and poppin their knot with a bullet, the preferred method of "debate" in Marxist countries.