Is global climate change/global warming a real phenomenon?

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Is global warming real?


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Jul 10, 2002
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#21
There are a lot of people who deny global warming. recently, there was a large group of scientist that did some type of protest in regards to global warming. If I can find the article I'll post it.

Edit: Read this. It isn't the one I originally read, but it provides more info and links.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index....ecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6
Granted there are dissenter's, overall the UN IPCC as a majority supports the theory of climate change and global warming.

IMO from what I understand and believe, the dissenter's who dispute global warming are not unbiased, and more than likely have some kind of corporate incentive to refute global warming (i.e. shareholder/stakeholder, or paid for specific results). How many dissenters work for oil/coal/chemical based industries or companies?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#22
Granted there are dissenter's, overall the UN IPCC as a majority supports the theory of climate change and global warming.
That doesn't matter. The point is, many people deny global warming. Refer to the link I previously posted.

IMO from what I understand and believe, the dissenter's who dispute global warming are not unbiased, and more than likely have some kind of corporate incentive to refute global warming (i.e. shareholder/stakeholder, or paid for specific results). How many dissenters work for oil/coal/chemical based industries or companies?
Please, refer to the link I posted. In addition, more information may be found in this thread.

http://siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=295714&highlight=global+warming&page=3
 
Jul 10, 2002
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#23
I did check out the link and did a feeble attempt to research the people who were quoted and wasn't able to come up with much on the few I did look into one way or another so I stopped.

So again, I always have to ask, what incentive to those who deny global warming have?
 
Jul 10, 2002
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#24
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/05/the-greenback-effect.html

The Greenback Effect

NEWS: Greed has helped destroy the planet—maybe now it can help save it.

By Bill McKibben

May/June 2008 Issue

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Since I spend most of my time haplessly battling global warming, I encounter a fair number of climate-change skeptics. They're usually clutching some tattered study about tropospheric temperatures from six years back, or muttering about sunspots, but they're almost never carefully weighing the actual current science. The wellspring of their skepticism lies not in chemistry or in physics but in ideology, and their syllogism goes something like this:

Markets solve all problems;
Markets are not solving global warming;
QED, global warming is not a problem.

This proof has certain logical shortcomings, beginning with the fact that it's illogical. But it is emotionally comforting. For those who wanted to stop thinking about politics and responsibility and morality and science and all that stuff, the advent of Reagan-era market fundamentalism was a godsend, and anything that threatens to disrupt it is an identity-challenging tilt of the psychic pinball machine.

So what I tend to say to these people is, I hear you. Markets are powerful. Let's think about why they've failed here and how to make them work.

And there's a one-word answer: information.

Markets are impotent in fighting the greatest challenge our planet has ever faced because we've given them absolutely nothing to work with. They exist in childlike innocence about the crisis because carbon carries no required cost. And in fact almost everything that environmental campaigners are doing at the national and the international level is an effort to fix that problem—to feed information into markets so they can help slow the rise of carbon. That's right: If there are true believers (or at least true hopers) about markets right now, they tend to be green.

Let's take the widely touted proposal for an 80 percent cut in carbon emissions by 2050 via a "shrinking cap" on emissions that would cause the price of carbon to rise steadily for the next 40 years. (Full disclosure: I helped run a nationwide campaign last year calling on Congress to endorse that target.) Here's what the cap would mean in practice: If you were sitting down tomorrow to run the financials for your new power plant, there's no way you'd go with coal—the cost would make your spreadsheet shriek. Instead, you'd look much, much closer at solar-thermal power plants or banks of windmills. If you were a property developer whose clients had any ability to calculate, your next office building or subdivision would be closer to the trolley line (which you'd be pressuring the city to build), and all the walls would be stuffed with insulation. If you owned a car company, the rising price of carbon should be enough to prevent you from designing one more bulked-up suv—and so on.

The point is, markets are powerful precisely because they allow information to filter down quickly and thoroughly, creating new realities—a new medium in the economic petri dish. Given that solving global warming will require huge systemic change over a very short period, that's a useful mechanism.

Clearly global warming will carry enormous costs. Taller levees. Higher food prices. Treating malaria patients in New Delhi and maybe New York. One estimate put the tab higher than the combined cost of both World Wars and the Great Depression. What we need to do is make the markets foresee that cost and act accordingly.

Bright Idea Close the enron loophole In some regions, natural gas bills have almost doubled since 2000. Blame Ken Lay and his friends in Congress. Unlike other commodity markets, which are federally regulated, electronic trading on energy markets is immune from government oversight, thanks to a loophole inserted into the 2000 Commodity Futures Modernization Act by an unknown senator acting at Enron's behest. Now investors such as Amaranth Advisors, a hedge fund that controlled more than half of all natural gas deals at one point in 2006, can corner the market and cause rates to skyrocket. Michigan Senator Carl Levin has been trying to close the Enron loophole for five years; he says it soon may be tied up for good.
—Rebecca Clarren

Click here to see more Bright Ideas.

Of course, as any economist will quickly point out, such action will also come with a cost. Since carbon is going to have to get more expensive for markets to do their thing, someone is going to get hurt. So the next part of the equation involves figuring out who should bear that price. And here, interestingly, is another place where economic orthodoxy works pretty well. Take that shrinking cap on carbon emissions: One way to make it work is to hand out permits to big carbon producers—oil companies, coal companies, and so on—and steadily shrink the availability of permits. Those permits would be very valuable, and their cost would be passed on to consumers, whose price at the pump or off the back of the fuel-oil truck would increase. But the question is, How do you award those permits? (Or how do you set tax rates for carbon, etc.—the logic is the same.)

The answer favored by big industry is, Give us the permits. For free. Because we've spent years getting rich burning coal; if you're going to interfere with the system, make sure you don't touch the profits. But the more logical alternative is for the government to auction the permits off; with the proceeds we could, if we wanted to, simply send a check for, say, $1,000 to every American, which would go a long way toward covering the increased costs we Americans would face. This so-called Cap and Dividend concept—pushed for years by Peter Barnes, a cofounder of the progressive phone company Working Assets—is actually gaining some traction: Barack Obama, for one, has endorsed the permit-auction idea.

You could also, of course, take the auction proceeds and subsidize the transition to new clean-energy technologies—solar-thermal plants or windmills or whatever. This method has real attractions too, especially given that the most compelling analogies for the change we need come from the industrial boom catalyzed by World War II or the technological vigor of the Apollo era, both prompted by massive government spending. And consider that World War II was a three-year crisis for the United States, not a four-decade transition, and the moon shot was almost the opposite of our current task—instead of focusing immense resources on one mission, we need to spread them widely on a range of projects. In essence, we need to put all of us into orbit.

The weakness of our current government-spending model can be summed up in one word: ethanol. That is to say, the process is so twisted by regional interest, vested interest, and lack of interest by anyone but lobbyists that even when the political will is there to provide substantial subsidies, the results can be ludicrous. We are now spending billions upon billions to subsidize the conversion of corn to ethanol, a practice that creates the scantest possible environmental benefit while driving up food prices enormously. The main beneficiaries are the biggest of industrial farmers, and the losers include people around the world who now have considerably less to eat (and are increasingly figuring out that we're to blame). Or take nuclear power: It's far from the lowest-cost (or lowest-risk) option for our energy future, but it has a dedicated band of lobbyists eager to win massive federal subsidies. (See "The Nuclear Option")

In the best of all possible worlds, a wise Congress would figure out just which technologies will work best, and how they can be implemented most efficiently. But that's asking an awful lot. There are days when I'd be willing to give up every penny of the wind and solar subsidies we desperately need if that meant we could also kill the subsidies for "clean coal" and atomic energy—a level playing field, with the cost of carbon entered accurately into the equation, might be just what we need.

None of this means Washington doesn't have additional work to do. For one thing, we don't all start on a level playing field. Government must make sure that those disadvantaged by history get a boost from the coming economic transformation, and that those who can't afford to insulate their homes get the help they need. And we need much higher levels of funding for basic research in energy conservation and generation—fundamental investigation of breakthrough technologies is not something business is good at. Oh, and buses, and subways. These are the reasons we pay taxes.

There's a deeper flaw to my argument: Continuing to rely on a growth economy for change keeps us locked into the wider damage an ever-more market-centered civilization causes—the constant "creative destruction" beloved by economists and hated by those of us who would like to, say, live in the same community for a long time.

Which is why, in my ideal world, we'd use the power of democracy to add even more pieces of information to a market system. Tariffs that encourage local economies, for instance, because the data now show that more self-reliant societies are also more durable and more satisfying. Perhaps we should work for some totally different economic system—I hear pretty regularly from a different breed of skeptic who insists we'll never solve our problems until we go "beyond capitalism." But that debate is going to take a while—for the atmospherically relevant time frame, we're not going to change our basic economic framework any more than we're going to sign on to some new nature religion that would turn protecting the planet into some kind of Eleventh Commandment. Given how fast the ice caps are melting, speed is of the essence. And markets are quick. Given some direction, they'll help.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
113
www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#25
I did check out the link and did a feeble attempt to research the people who were quoted and wasn't able to come up with much on the few I did look into one way or another so I stopped.
All you have to do is cut and paste the names in a search engine. Plenty of names will pop up. Or you can wait until the full report is released. The link I provided has links within it that state, "This blockbuster Senate report lists the scientists by name, country of residence, and academic/institutional affiliation. It also features their own words, biographies, and weblinks to their peer reviewed studies and original source materials as gathered from public statements, various news outlets, and websites in 2007."

So again, I always have to ask, what incentive to those who deny global warming have?
Again, refer to the link I posted as they are claiming they are being threatened and ostracized. Moreover, they are claiming the other side are supporting the theory/claim of GW in order to keep contracts, government funding, etc.

With that being said, my advice to you is to read the link, read all the links contained in the link, and to wait for the full report to be released.
 
Jul 10, 2002
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#26
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/05/fossil-fools.html

Congress' Top 10 Fossil Fools

NEWS: Who stands between us and a clean-energy future? These guys.

By Chris Mooney

May/June 2008 Issue

irst, the good news: Goofy global warming deniers like Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.) have been thoroughly outed as cranks, and largely relegated to the ash bin of history. Today's most potent climate bad guys are more subtle creatures—those who, usually to court favor with a home-state constituency, are holding back the growth of a clean-energy economy. Few do so outright. But when we survey the current U.S. Congress and the political landscape more generally, it's clear that many individuals and organizations have helped preserve our moribund fossil-fuel-based energy system

sen. pete domenici (R-N.M.) To transition into a postcarbon energy economy, Congress must pass a so-called "renewable portfolio standard" requiring power companies to derive some fraction of the electricity they sell from sources like solar or wind. During the debate over the 2007 energy bill (see "Pork Power"), Democrats sought to require companies to get 15 percent of their power from renewables by 2020. The rps survived the House intact but died a filibustery death in the Senate thanks to Republican opposition led by retiring Energy and Natural Resources Committee ranking member and nuclear power fan Domenici, who claimed such a measure would "burden consumers." Domenici isn't all bad on renewables—he supported a push to extend tax credits for them as part of the economic-stimulus drive—but his opposition to the rps outweighs any other good deeds.

the southern company Many Southern Republican senators marched to Domenici's tune on the rps, and this Atlanta-based power company—which includes utilities in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Florida and whose profits totaled $1.73 billion in 2007—might know why. Southern spent a whopping $14.5 million on energy and environment lobbying in 2007, much of it to oppose an rps. All six senators representing Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi voted with Domenici—and Southern—on renewable energy. Since 1990, five of those six have each received more than $50,000 in campaign donations from Southern, with Alabama's Jeff Sessions heading the list with $154,765.

sen. mary landrieu (D-La.) Landrieu is known for putting the interests of the climate second to those of Louisiana energy companies. In the 2007 energy bill, the Senate had to decide whether to repeal recently enacted tax breaks to Big Oil and extend incentives for renewables. A filibuster to prevent this priority realignment held by a one-vote margin. Landrieu, who's thus far received $139,500 from oil and gas interests in the 2008 reelection cycle, was the only Demo­crat who voted with Republicans on the matter.

rep. joe barton (R-Texas) Perhaps most notorious for sending harassing letters to federally funded climate researchers when he was chair of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Barton led the unsuccessful House opposition to the "kamikaze energy bill," especially its renewables mandate. In the process, Barton engaged in some creative redefinition of terms, arguing that companies should have the option of using power derived from "clean coal" and nuclear to meet any renewables standard, which...well, misses the point entirely. In the current election cycle Barton has received more than $100,000 from oil, gas, and electric utilities. He didn't get the nickname "Smoky Joe" for nothing.

sen. jim bunning (R-Ky.)/coal-state dems Clean coal is, in essence, an oxymoron, but that hasn't stopped Kentucky senator and Hall of Fame baseball pitcher Bunning from various maneuvers to promote it—including trying to add a liquid coal amendment to the 2007 energy bill. One of Bunning's top collaborators on the coal-to-liquid front was Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.)—although he jumped ship in 2007, right after it became a political liability. No worries, though; Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.) and the other coal-state Dems are still on board

rep. john dingell (D-Mich.) Serving in the House since 1955, the "Dingellsaurus" is increasingly out of step with "damned environmentalists" and House leadership. Wielding his clout as chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, he's fought for massive subsidies for fossil fuels, and against the RPS, increased fuel-efficiency standards—and especially the separate "light truck" standard—and (winning him no love from Speaker Nancy Pelosi) California's 38-year-old right to set its own emissions standards. Ostensibly he takes these positions to defend Detroit from pesky regulation, but history will likely judge him as crippling American automakers' ability to compete with Toyota and Honda in the 21st century.

en. lamar alexander (R-Tenn.) One of the most important renewable-energy industries that we must encourage is wind power. But Tennessee's senior senator has taken precisely the opposite tack, tilting at wind and even claiming it produces "puny amounts of high-cost unreliable power." Alexander has also introduced legislation that would remove tax credits for wind power, and in opposing the Senate rps, commented, "Forcing Tennesseans either to build 40-story wind turbines on our pristine mountaintops or to pay billions in penalty taxes to the federal government amounts to a judge giving a defendant the choice to be hanged or shot.

sen. ted kennedy (D-Mass.) Not to be out-nimbyed by those across the aisle, Kennedy opposes the offshore Cape Wind project, whose proposed site is near his Hyannis Port home. Hypocrisy? Here are Kennedy's own words: "I strongly support renewable energy, including wind energy, as a means of reducing our dependence on foreign oil and protecting the environment." Just, um, not where he lives.

sen. john thune (R-S.D.) The conservative prairie senator likes wind power well enough—there's plenty of it in his state. But as there's also lots of corn around, Thune has been a leading promoter of corn-based ethanol and spearheaded recent mandates to dramatically ramp up its production. Alas, scientific research has increasingly exposed this allegedly "green fuel" as disastrous for the climate and responsible for higher food prices. Thune, though, says that's "propaganda" that has been "engineered by the oil companies that hate ethanol." He recently introduced legislation that would undermine the environmental safeguards for biofuels included in the 2007 energy bill.

en. john mccain (R-Ariz.) The gop nominee isn't generally known for an atrocious record on the environment—until recently. While McCain has pioneered greenhouse gas legislation, last year he received a stunning zero rating on the environment from the League of Conservation Voters. The goose egg came because McCain missed every single environmentally relevant vote—including one to break a filibuster over the inclusion of an rps in the 2007 energy bill. And this year, McCain was the only senator who failed to vote on a version of the economic-stimulus bill that included tax incentives for clean energy. The clean-energy bill failed to overcome a filibuster by just one vote. That could have been McCain's.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
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#29
Which those same people are claming are skewed and fradulous....you saw the link posted by HERESY.
those were quotes, not data

Huh? What "logic" did i express? I merely told you that whether YOU like it or not, there ARE people out there that believe it NOT to be true, nothing more. That is not logic, its a fuckin FACT.
I was not replying to the fact, I was replying to what it implied, namely, that the fact that there are AGW denialists somehow means that denial is a credible position

If that were the "logic", then more people would beleive that 911 was a big sham put on by someone other than the ficiticious bunch named "Al-Quida"...
Exposure to information is also a factor. What you are citing is not a good example, because the default position and the position opposing it have swapped places. The idea that 9/11 was a scam came after most people have accepted the official version, i.e. that idea had to undo what has been already ingrained in people's mind.

It is exactly the opposite with Flat Earth, creationism, and AGW denial. Those were the default positions that science had to undo, and as the impact on people's lives of whether the Earth is flat or not is minimal, it was very quickly accepted. While the idea that we were not created and we have no privileged place in the world was very difficult to accept and to this day has been the view of the educated minority. The idea that we are a cancer growing on the planet Earth that will die together with its patient and that if we want to survive, we have to kill the cancer ourselves, i.e. drastically reduce both our population and consumption and entirely rethink who we are and why we're here, is extremely difficult to understand for most people, let alone embrace it. Because it threatens all the sacred cows that we have been protecting for centuries and that have paralyzed our brains into a state of total inability of thinking and acting rationally
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#30
Granted there are dissenter's, overall the UN IPCC as a majority supports the theory of climate change and global warming.

IMO from what I understand and believe, the dissenter's who dispute global warming are not unbiased, and more than likely have some kind of corporate incentive to refute global warming (i.e. shareholder/stakeholder, or paid for specific results). How many dissenters work for oil/coal/chemical based industries or companies?
exactly

Plus it is pointless to throw in lists of dissenters as being the authority on the subject, the authority is the opinion of the majority of scientists (among which the effects of bribed opinions, personal misinterpretations of data, incompetence) dilute themselves enough for the truth to emerge. And it has been quite well stated in the statements by the NASs of dozens of countries regarding global warming
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#31
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/05/the-greenback-effect.html

The Greenback Effect

NEWS: Greed has helped destroy the planet—maybe now it can help save it.

By Bill McKibben

May/June 2008 Issue

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Since I spend most of my time haplessly battling global warming, I encounter a fair number of climate-change skeptics. They're usually clutching some tattered study about tropospheric temperatures from six years back, or muttering about sunspots, but they're almost never carefully weighing the actual current science. The wellspring of their skepticism lies not in chemistry or in physics but in ideology, and their syllogism goes something like this:

Markets solve all problems;
Markets are not solving global warming;
QED, global warming is not a problem.

This proof has certain logical shortcomings, beginning with the fact that it's illogical. But it is emotionally comforting. For those who wanted to stop thinking about politics and responsibility and morality and science and all that stuff, the advent of Reagan-era market fundamentalism was a godsend, and anything that threatens to disrupt it is an identity-challenging tilt of the psychic pinball machine.

So what I tend to say to these people is, I hear you. Markets are powerful. Let's think about why they've failed here and how to make them work.

And there's a one-word answer: information.

Markets are impotent in fighting the greatest challenge our planet has ever faced because we've given them absolutely nothing to work with. They exist in childlike innocence about the crisis because carbon carries no required cost. And in fact almost everything that environmental campaigners are doing at the national and the international level is an effort to fix that problem—to feed information into markets so they can help slow the rise of carbon. That's right: If there are true believers (or at least true hopers) about markets right now, they tend to be green.

Let's take the widely touted proposal for an 80 percent cut in carbon emissions by 2050 via a "shrinking cap" on emissions that would cause the price of carbon to rise steadily for the next 40 years. (Full disclosure: I helped run a nationwide campaign last year calling on Congress to endorse that target.) Here's what the cap would mean in practice: If you were sitting down tomorrow to run the financials for your new power plant, there's no way you'd go with coal—the cost would make your spreadsheet shriek. Instead, you'd look much, much closer at solar-thermal power plants or banks of windmills. If you were a property developer whose clients had any ability to calculate, your next office building or subdivision would be closer to the trolley line (which you'd be pressuring the city to build), and all the walls would be stuffed with insulation. If you owned a car company, the rising price of carbon should be enough to prevent you from designing one more bulked-up suv—and so on.

The point is, markets are powerful precisely because they allow information to filter down quickly and thoroughly, creating new realities—a new medium in the economic petri dish. Given that solving global warming will require huge systemic change over a very short period, that's a useful mechanism.

Clearly global warming will carry enormous costs. Taller levees. Higher food prices. Treating malaria patients in New Delhi and maybe New York. One estimate put the tab higher than the combined cost of both World Wars and the Great Depression. What we need to do is make the markets foresee that cost and act accordingly.

Bright Idea Close the enron loophole In some regions, natural gas bills have almost doubled since 2000. Blame Ken Lay and his friends in Congress. Unlike other commodity markets, which are federally regulated, electronic trading on energy markets is immune from government oversight, thanks to a loophole inserted into the 2000 Commodity Futures Modernization Act by an unknown senator acting at Enron's behest. Now investors such as Amaranth Advisors, a hedge fund that controlled more than half of all natural gas deals at one point in 2006, can corner the market and cause rates to skyrocket. Michigan Senator Carl Levin has been trying to close the Enron loophole for five years; he says it soon may be tied up for good.
—Rebecca Clarren

Click here to see more Bright Ideas.

Of course, as any economist will quickly point out, such action will also come with a cost. Since carbon is going to have to get more expensive for markets to do their thing, someone is going to get hurt. So the next part of the equation involves figuring out who should bear that price. And here, interestingly, is another place where economic orthodoxy works pretty well. Take that shrinking cap on carbon emissions: One way to make it work is to hand out permits to big carbon producers—oil companies, coal companies, and so on—and steadily shrink the availability of permits. Those permits would be very valuable, and their cost would be passed on to consumers, whose price at the pump or off the back of the fuel-oil truck would increase. But the question is, How do you award those permits? (Or how do you set tax rates for carbon, etc.—the logic is the same.)

The answer favored by big industry is, Give us the permits. For free. Because we've spent years getting rich burning coal; if you're going to interfere with the system, make sure you don't touch the profits. But the more logical alternative is for the government to auction the permits off; with the proceeds we could, if we wanted to, simply send a check for, say, $1,000 to every American, which would go a long way toward covering the increased costs we Americans would face. This so-called Cap and Dividend concept—pushed for years by Peter Barnes, a cofounder of the progressive phone company Working Assets—is actually gaining some traction: Barack Obama, for one, has endorsed the permit-auction idea.

You could also, of course, take the auction proceeds and subsidize the transition to new clean-energy technologies—solar-thermal plants or windmills or whatever. This method has real attractions too, especially given that the most compelling analogies for the change we need come from the industrial boom catalyzed by World War II or the technological vigor of the Apollo era, both prompted by massive government spending. And consider that World War II was a three-year crisis for the United States, not a four-decade transition, and the moon shot was almost the opposite of our current task—instead of focusing immense resources on one mission, we need to spread them widely on a range of projects. In essence, we need to put all of us into orbit.

The weakness of our current government-spending model can be summed up in one word: ethanol. That is to say, the process is so twisted by regional interest, vested interest, and lack of interest by anyone but lobbyists that even when the political will is there to provide substantial subsidies, the results can be ludicrous. We are now spending billions upon billions to subsidize the conversion of corn to ethanol, a practice that creates the scantest possible environmental benefit while driving up food prices enormously. The main beneficiaries are the biggest of industrial farmers, and the losers include people around the world who now have considerably less to eat (and are increasingly figuring out that we're to blame). Or take nuclear power: It's far from the lowest-cost (or lowest-risk) option for our energy future, but it has a dedicated band of lobbyists eager to win massive federal subsidies. (See "The Nuclear Option")

In the best of all possible worlds, a wise Congress would figure out just which technologies will work best, and how they can be implemented most efficiently. But that's asking an awful lot. There are days when I'd be willing to give up every penny of the wind and solar subsidies we desperately need if that meant we could also kill the subsidies for "clean coal" and atomic energy—a level playing field, with the cost of carbon entered accurately into the equation, might be just what we need.

None of this means Washington doesn't have additional work to do. For one thing, we don't all start on a level playing field. Government must make sure that those disadvantaged by history get a boost from the coming economic transformation, and that those who can't afford to insulate their homes get the help they need. And we need much higher levels of funding for basic research in energy conservation and generation—fundamental investigation of breakthrough technologies is not something business is good at. Oh, and buses, and subways. These are the reasons we pay taxes.

There's a deeper flaw to my argument: Continuing to rely on a growth economy for change keeps us locked into the wider damage an ever-more market-centered civilization causes—the constant "creative destruction" beloved by economists and hated by those of us who would like to, say, live in the same community for a long time.

Which is why, in my ideal world, we'd use the power of democracy to add even more pieces of information to a market system. Tariffs that encourage local economies, for instance, because the data now show that more self-reliant societies are also more durable and more satisfying. Perhaps we should work for some totally different economic system—I hear pretty regularly from a different breed of skeptic who insists we'll never solve our problems until we go "beyond capitalism." But that debate is going to take a while—for the atmospherically relevant time frame, we're not going to change our basic economic framework any more than we're going to sign on to some new nature religion that would turn protecting the planet into some kind of Eleventh Commandment. Given how fast the ice caps are melting, speed is of the essence. And markets are quick. Given some direction, they'll help.
Markets will never solve the problem in their current form. We have a growth based economy and this is the essence and cause of all problems - growth. We need to stop growing and start shrinking in a controlled fashion, because the shrinking is inevitable but it will be really ugly if it's uncontrolled. Markets and democracy can't do that because it is against the personal interests of everybody involved.

Unfortunately, we ended the 20th century being extremely proud of eradicating communism and almost all totalitarian states, while in fact I am quite sure that rational people in the end of the 21st century, if there are any left, long after the collapse has unfolded would point this out as one of our numerous big tragedies. Because at this point it is only a strongly oppressive worldwide totalitarian regime lead by knowledgeable people that can get us out of this mess. There is just no other way that the extremely unpopular measures needed can be implemented. And I am not talking about cap-and-trades. x% emissions cut-offs by 2050, etc., because nobody dares to list the type of measures we actually need, in fact few people dare to even think about them
 
May 9, 2002
37,066
16,282
113
#33
Exposure to information is also a factor. What you are citing is not a good example, because the default position and the position opposing it have swapped places. The idea that 9/11 was a scam came after most people have accepted the official version, i.e. that idea had to undo what has been already ingrained in people's mind.
And youre putting everyone under the assumption that they ALL accepted 911 for what it was, when that is NOT the case.

It is exactly the opposite with Flat Earth, creationism, and AGW denial.
No, people made those ASSUMPUTIONS due to lack of technology at the time.

Those were the default positions that science had to undo, and as the impact on people's lives of whether the Earth is flat or not is minimal, it was very quickly accepted. While the idea that we were not created and we have no privileged place in the world was very difficult to accept and to this day has been the view of the educated minority. The idea that we are a cancer growing on the planet Earth that will die together with its patient and that if we want to survive, we have to kill the cancer ourselves, i.e. drastically reduce both our population and consumption and entirely rethink who we are and why we're here, is extremely difficult to understand for most people, let alone embrace it. Because it threatens all the sacred cows that we have been protecting for centuries and that have paralyzed our brains into a state of total inability of thinking and acting rationally
And this is once again an OPINION, and YOUR opinion at that.

You really need to stop passing your opinion as FACT, its quite annoying. You have a LARGE bias towards such things and you show your ass in every topic when you say shit like this.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#36
And youre putting everyone under the assumption that they ALL accepted 911 for what it was, when that is NOT the case.



No, people made those ASSUMPUTIONS due to lack of technology at the time.



And this is once again an OPINION, and YOUR opinion at that.

You really need to stop passing your opinion as FACT, its quite annoying. You have a LARGE bias towards such things and you show your ass in every topic when you say shit like this.
I am not passing anything as fact, this is precisely the kind of thing I am trained not to do. I present logic and argumentation and real facts on which to apply them, other people seem to be quite less capable of doing that, and they get pissed. I can't help them
 
Jan 31, 2008
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#38
I am not passing anything as fact, this is precisely the kind of thing I am trained not to do. I present logic and argumentation and real facts on which to apply them, other people seem to be quite less capable of doing that, and they get pissed. I can't help them
whoever trained you must have been retarded like yourself, because you and your trainer have both missed the point
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#39
I am not passing anything as fact, this is precisely the kind of thing I am trained not to do. I present logic and argumentation and real facts on which to apply them, other people seem to be quite less capable of doing that, and they get pissed. I can't help them
Yes you are, no you aren't, no you don't, no they don't and no one ever asked you to.