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HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#81
2.0.6 said
How reliable were each of those sources?
since we have 3 different takes i dont know how reliable they are. im sure you're familiar with those numbers.

Even if we take the lowest, 30,000 years, that still destroys the 6,000 year old earth theory as well as the 900 year old men.
actually it doesnt. you OVERLOOK two MAJOR factors (and many "theist/creationalist" over look it as well)

1.the JEWISH CALENDER and Time frame/scale

2.GENESIS 1:1-2

What is your point??? I am well aware of these extinct relatives of man.
IF YOU WERE AWARE OF THESE EXTINCT RELATIVES OF MAN YOU WOULD KNOW HOW ***LARGE*** THEY WERE AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM.


Oh please. This was a great piece for the theists, but unfortunately it has been PROVEN A HOAX.
I DIDNT BUY INTO THE SHROUD. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SHROUD THE MAN (OR WHATEVER IT IS) HAS ***EUROPEAN** FEATURES. BASICALLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE LONG HAIRED HIPPIE JESUS THAT YOU ARE USED TO SEEING.
Its amusing to me that if those tests results were in favor of this being authentic, you theists would claim this as PROOF.
SEE THE ABOVE.


:H:
 
May 16, 2002
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#82
miggidy & Heresy :
The quotes on the different subjects are from a man is a professor of ancient history and mythology , they are not mine therefore there will be some time before I can respond to your arguments. In the meantime read this :




A Brief History of God



We can, with fair ease track the development of the Judeo-Christian belief system. An examination which, though it does not "disprove" religion, Judaism, or Christianity as it were, raises serious substantive questions about the nature of the worship, and the validity of many modern practices. Yahweh (Later known by mistranslation as Jehovah to the western world) was originally known just as Yah, possibly Yeh. It was written in ancient Hebrew as YH because ancient Hebrew did not write vowels; the language simply let the reader fill them in. Yahweh (As I will refer to the deity in the rest of this treatise) evolved out of the native Canaanite pantheon of gods.

While the bible does claim that the Jews came to Canaan and conquered the region, notably in the Hebrew Bible in the books of Judges and Joshua. Archaeological evidence suggests otherwise. It is extremely likely, considering the archeological evidence, that Jews were in fact native to the area. The Books of Judges and Joshua themselves contradict one another, quite irreproachably. The Book of Judges claims that the conquest of Canaan took an extended period of time, in which the Hebrews faced many set backs, but over time various local groups pushed the boundaries outwards. Joshua however, claims that the Jews stormed the area, conquering it within five years, another prospect entirely.

The archeological evidence however, is not sufficient for many. For some, the evidence is but secondary to the written word of the bible. That is why it is necessary to again look to the Bible and archeology, as well as other groups in the region. Religion, like all social institutions, does not develop in a vacuum, and it is subject to interference by the factors of the day. The Jews came to Canaan, in what is generally considered the defining event of Jewish history, still celebrated by Passover, the Jewish exodus from Egypt. Evidence outside the bible is quite contradictory. Though the writing of the story itself does not contain many inconsistencies, certainly the originator of the story had some travels in Egypt. For one, in all the vast hieroglyphic inscriptions left by the Egyptians, in which they detail, painfully sometimes, the people they come in contact with, there is only one mention of the Jews. There is but one mention of a group of people named the Israelites in an inscription on a monument by the Pharaoh Sheshonk (the biblical Shishak). This is in fact strange indeed, if the Jews were enslaved as they bible claims, it is amazing that the Egyptians did not mention them in any meaningful way. However a vacuum of evidence is not disproof.

What is perhaps more important is that we have records of the story an exodus from Egypt. We have numerous records of this story, what is important about that is that we have these records from other peoples in the area. In fact, a story about an exodus from Egypt by a defining character akin to Moses was in other cultures before the Jews long before we ever have a written record of the story in Jewish circles. By the time the Jews adopted it into their belief system the story was an incredibly popular myth circulating around the Levant in a number of belief systems, all believing that they had been exiled.

This is not the only story to have been borrowed. The most obvious one is the story of Noah and the Ark. Long have people pointed to the Epic of Gilgamesh and its story of a flood that wiped out most of humanity except for one man as proof that there was some flood. The similarity, it turns out, is not coincidental. In the original Sumerian version, the sky god Enlil was angered with humanity and decided to punish them with a flood, sparing only the most righteous man, a man by the name of Ziusudra. By the time of the Epic of Gilgamesh the man's name had changed to Utnapishtim, to reflect the language change of the day. However, this myth was popular and spread to the Hurrians, and eventually later found its way into the Hebrew belief system. This process is known as syncretism, a borrowing of one religion to another. The ancient world did not look down upon this.

So, it is highly unlikely that the Jews ever fled Egypt, or that they were ever there at all. Most likely the only contact they had with them directly was during Egypt's days of trading in ancient Syria. This view is supported by archeological evidence, which places them as native inhabitants of Canaan, one that took part of Canaan culture, originally fully believed in the Canaan religion, but was an ethnic subgroup.

So where then, is the proof that Yahweh, and Jewish beliefs stemmed from Canaanite religion, since Judaism is so different? The evidence is quite numerous, that chronicles a slow change from the Canaanite mainstream, to an offshoot, to an eventual establishment of a religion in its own right. The Jews were originally, as were all Canaanites, a polytheistic religion. The Canaanites worshiped El as the supreme god, but El was a distant an uninvolved god. Most commonly they worshiped Baal who was an active god in the world, and a storm and sky god. The Canaanites believed that there were a number of divine manifestations of Baal, collectively called the Baalim. One of these Baalim was Yah (Yahweh). It should be noted that all this is taking place before the writing of any of the passages in the Hebrew Bible. Among the Hebrews over time Yah took on stronger and stronger powers and gained more worship. This process is not uncommon; something that happens in many polytheistic religions is that one god gains favoritism and possibly eventually gets worshipped by itself.

The name Yah itself is a reflection of its Baalim origins. The word Yah is not a name, but a title. It comes from the Aramaic word meaning to blow, as in a storm god's wind. The original Jews, even after Yahweh took primacy, were polytheistic. The Jews continued to worship the old Canaanite gods alongside Yahweh, only worshipping Yahweh as supreme. There is ample evidence to support this. Ashtarte (also known as Ishtar, or Inanna) was worshipped as Yahweh's divine consort. There are numerous remains left by the Jews to testify this. For one there was a shrine to Ashtarte within the Temple to Yahweh in Jerusalem. Moreover pottery has been found depicting Yahweh in the center of the piece, and Ashtarte next to him, represented as consorts often are in ancient near eastern art. The Decalogue itself, part of the book of Deuteronomy one of the earlier books to be written reflects this. The commandment states that, "Thou shalt hold no god before me, for I am a jealous god." It does not however, say that there are no other gods. And the Jewish practice reflected this. They worshipped other gods, but never on the level as Yahweh.

Continues [down] [down]
 
May 13, 2002
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#83
@The Destroyer,

IF YOU WERE AWARE OF THESE EXTINCT RELATIVES OF MAN YOU WOULD KNOW HOW ***LARGE*** THEY WERE AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM.
Yes, I am aware of HOW large they were and WHERE they have been found.

I DIDNT BUY INTO THE SHROUD. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SHROUD THE MAN (OR WHATEVER IT IS) HAS ***EUROPEAN** FEATURES. BASICALLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE LONG HAIRED HIPPIE JESUS THAT YOU ARE USED TO SEEING.
Then why bring it up?

1.the JEWISH CALENDER and Time frame/scale
I will comment on this when I get off work
 
May 16, 2002
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#84
Over time however, the trend towards monotheism continued. By the time many of the books of the bible were written, that trend was complete. The Jews condemned the worship of Baal (the origin of their own god) and many others. Eventually they came to the belief that they should not worship any other gods. This had largely happened by the time of the prophet Hosea (believe to be around 800 B.C.). The Jews however, did not necessarily disbelieve the other gods, they simply felt that Yahweh was their god, and that he demanded sole worship. It was to the ancient Jew by that time, moot whether other gods existed.

The trend from polytheism to monotheism was not the only change in Jewish worship. Nor was the borrowing of the myths of Noah and the Exodus the only elements that were borrowed into the Jewish, and later Christian and Islamic belief systems. Modern Christianity, as well as some early sects of Judaism (though not all) owes much to Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism itself sprung from the pre-existing religion in the Persian area. The pre-existing religion worshipped two sorts of sprits, the good (the Ahuras), and the bad (the Daevas). The start of Zoroastrianism however, came with the birth of Zoroaster, whom it is believed was born no later than the sixth century B.C. but possibly several centuries earlier. Zoroastrianism, it should be noted, had no effect on the writings of the Old Testament, most of which had solidified by that time, and so it did not effect the written word. Zoroaster preached that there was the source of ultimate good, known as Ahura Mazda. Ahura Mazda was associated with infinite wisdom (something the ancient Jews did not hold their god to), light, truth, and righteousness. Many elements of Zoroastrianism seem familiar, and it is not by coincidence. Zoroaster preached that the enemy of Ahura Mazda was Ahriman, who represented all the forces of evil. This cosmic dualism, of ultimate good and evil is of course a familiar Christian and Islamic concept.

Zoroastrianism helped define the modern concept of angels. Early Jews did believe in angels long before Zoroastrianism, however not in the stylized manner many today do. Early Jews believed that angles did not have wings, and that they came to earth via a large ladder descending from heaven. They were poorly defined in terms of their roles, in fact our word angel comes from the Greek word angelos meaning messenger. However, Zoroastrianism also had Angels, it characterized them as having wings, and acting as the servants of Ahura Mazda, ready to aid people in the battle against Ahriman. They also had orders, which almost identically reflect the orders of Cherubim, Seraphim, and the other orders of angels, both in duty and in number. Zoroastrianism also contained the concept of demons.

Zoroaster was the first to claim that all persons had free will to choose to be good or evil. This concept was not yet in the belief systems of the area, Judaism included. In Zoroastrianism, all people had free will to choose, and though Ahura Mazda stood as true light, Ahriman tried to trick and deceive them into evil. After some time, an apocalypse would occur in which all the angels of Ahura Mazda would battle all the devils of Ahriman. Before this event a deceiver would be sent by Ahriman to confuse all of humanity from Ahura Mazda, but in the end Ahura Mazda would prevail.

In Zoroastrianism the concept of life after death was expressly stated, one that was very vague at the time in Judaism. It was the belief that those who had followed the path of good, that of Ahriman would be rewarded with a heavenly existence, while those who had fallen from the path into darkness would fall into a hell, where they would be punished for their sins. All of these notions were completely unknown in the Jewish community at the time, these ideas having yet to appear there. Zoroastrianism did have notion that never wore off on the later religions, and it is that they believed that though all sinners would be punished after death, when the apocalypse came, all those in hell would be saved and see the light of Ahura Mazda, and join the rest in heaven.

As can be seen, many concepts familiar today in Christianity are contained in Zoroastrianism, but many of these concepts are not reflected in the Hebrew bible, and appear only in Christianity. There is a historical reason for this yet again. The Jews had had no contact with Zoroastrianism for some time, until the two Jewish tribes making up the kingdom of Judea were forcibly removed by the Assyrians into Babylonia. Here they came into contact with Zoroastrian ideas. While Zoroastrian ideas did not overcome the whole of the Jewish populous, it made serious inroads among many sectors of Jewish society. When the Jews were allowed to return home by Cyrus the Great, the Persian conqueror who defeated the Assyrians, they took many ideas home with them.


The concept of Satan at this time takes a serious turn. Previous to the captivity Satan was simply another angle serving Yahweh. The role of Satan was is clearly seen in the Book of Job where Satan acts as an agent to try and instill doubt into Job, but it is only with Yahweh's consent that Satan acts. Satan is then seen as a force of Yahweh, not as evil in and of himself. After the captivity though, many sectors of Judaism started to view Satan as akin to Ahriman, and accordingly, in some groups Satan took on the role of Ahriman, and Yahweh also took on more roles of Ahura Mazda. This transformation was not universal in all sectors of Judaism, indeed, not in most.

What is important however, is that it did take place in one sector that would go on to have its own impact on history. That is, the group of Jews who would make up the early embryo of Christianity. These concepts found their way into the belief system of the early Christians, who claimed the ideas as their own. The Judeo-Christian system has taken a long evolution from its beginnings as a worship of a Canaanite storm god to that of cosmic dualism, the battle between good and evil. None of this however, can disprove divinity, it does however, call into question the validity of almost every religious practice that exists in any set religious system of Judeo-Christianity. Indeed every religion has its orthodoxy, that is nearly always contradictory with its historical origin, and Judeo-Christianity is no different.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#85
@666 i brought up the shroud to show how different scientist view carbon dating.

@droopy. I allow grammer errors but I dont allow incorrect terms.
This guy is a PROFESSOR? If he isnt using the correct terminology how can we take him serious?

Can you please tell me the name of this professor and the school? Also is it possible that i can speak with this professor via telephone number or email?

I should start punching holes in his madness now (very easy to do) but i will wait a bit...

yeah this is a battle i need...to prove a professor wrong (i already did)...



:H:
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#87
We already covered some of this stuff so I'll speak on what hasn't already been spoken.....

Droopy Eye said:

While the bible does claim that the Jews came to Canaan and conquered the region, notably in the Hebrew Bible in the books of Judges and Joshua. Archaeological evidence suggests otherwise. It is extremely likely, considering the archeological evidence, that Jews were in fact native to the area. The Books of Judges and Joshua themselves contradict one another, quite irreproachably. The Book of Judges claims that the conquest of Canaan took an extended period of time, in which the Hebrews faced many set backs, but over time various local groups pushed the boundaries outwards. Joshua however, claims that the Jews stormed the area, conquering it within five years, another prospect entirely.
There's archeological evidence supporting the biblical claim that Joshua and the Isrealites conquered the Canaanites.
This was just on the History Channel not long ago.

Droopy Eye said:

The archeological evidence however, is not sufficient for many. For some, the evidence is but secondary to the written word of the bible. That is why it is necessary to again look to the Bible and archeology, as well as other groups in the region. Religion, like all social institutions, does not develop in a vacuum, and it is subject to interference by the factors of the day.
Yes it's important to look at archeology but what happens when something is found that doesn't support your theory?
It's natural that people will find a scape goat even if they're burried in a hole.
I forgot the name of the program that was on the History channel but that would've been a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The Christian archeologis who found this old battle sight was convinced that it was the scene of Joshua's battle against the Canaanites. They found the ruins of an old temple which was battle torn. They also found a bunch of clearly hand destroyed Canaanite idols. But what did the skeptics say?
"Oh, this still doesn't mean that this is the same sight the bible talked about. It can be anything blah blah blah".....
That's why the athiest mind will never be convinced, it's the mentality behind them....
It's impossible to find Joshua's photo ID amongst the rubble.
And that's what these non-believers will never understand.
I doubt that even if something equivalent to an ID was found, they would recognize the sight as the actual battle field....

Droopy Eye said:

The Jews came to Canaan, in what is generally considered the defining event of Jewish history, still celebrated by Passover, the Jewish exodus from Egypt. Evidence outside the bible is quite contradictory. Though the writing of the story itself does not contain many inconsistencies, certainly the originator of the story had some travels in Egypt. For one, in all the vast hieroglyphic inscriptions left by the Egyptians, in which they detail, painfully sometimes, the people they come in contact with, there is only one mention of the Jews. There is but one mention of a group of people named the Israelites in an inscription on a monument by the Pharaoh Sheshonk (the biblical Shishak). This is in fact strange indeed, if the Jews were enslaved as they bible claims, it is amazing that the Egyptians did not mention them in any meaningful way. However a vacuum of evidence is not disproof.
Ok first this "article" says that the Jews were already living in Canaan. And now it says that they "came" to Canaan.

Ok what ever, lets move on.
Evidence outside the bible regarding the Exodus is not contradictory.
The problem is that there is no evidence of the Exodus, thus far.
It's only a matter of time....

Droopy Eye said:

What is perhaps more important is that we have records of the story an exodus from Egypt. We have numerous records of this story, what is important about that is that we have these records from other peoples in the area. In fact, a story about an exodus from Egypt by a defining character akin to Moses was in other cultures before the Jews long before we ever have a written record of the story in Jewish circles. By the time the Jews adopted it into their belief system the story was an incredibly popular myth circulating around the Levant in a number of belief systems, all believing that they had been exiled.
Ok where is this evidence?
This sounds very similar to the fabricated theory that the legend of Jesus was borrowed from the Egyptian God, Horace....

Droopy Eye said:

This is not the only story to have been borrowed. The most obvious one is the story of Noah and the Ark. Long have people pointed to the Epic of Gilgamesh and its story of a flood that wiped out most of humanity except for one man as proof that there was some flood. The similarity, it turns out, is not coincidental. In the original Sumerian version, the sky god Enlil wa
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#88
We already covered some of this stuff so I'll speak on what hasn't already been spoken.....

Droopy Eye said:

While the bible does claim that the Jews came to Canaan and conquered the region, notably in the Hebrew Bible in the books of Judges and Joshua. Archaeological evidence suggests otherwise. It is extremely likely, considering the archeological evidence, that Jews were in fact native to the area. The Books of Judges and Joshua themselves contradict one another, quite irreproachably. The Book of Judges claims that the conquest of Canaan took an extended period of time, in which the Hebrews faced many set backs, but over time various local groups pushed the boundaries outwards. Joshua however, claims that the Jews stormed the area, conquering it within five years, another prospect entirely.
There's archeological evidence supporting the biblical claim that Joshua and the Isrealites conquered the Canaanites.
This was just on the History Channel not long ago.

Droopy Eye said:

The archeological evidence however, is not sufficient for many. For some, the evidence is but secondary to the written word of the bible. That is why it is necessary to again look to the Bible and archeology, as well as other groups in the region. Religion, like all social institutions, does not develop in a vacuum, and it is subject to interference by the factors of the day.
Yes it's important to look at archeology but what happens when something is found that doesn't support your theory?
It's natural that people will find a scape goat even if they're burried in a hole.
I forgot the name of the program that was on the History channel but that would've been a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The Christian archeologis who found this old battle sight was convinced that it was the scene of Joshua's battle against the Canaanites. They found the ruins of an old temple which was battle torn. They also found a bunch of clearly hand destroyed Canaanite idols. But what did the skeptics say?
"Oh, this still doesn't mean that this is the same sight the bible talked about. It can be anything blah blah blah".....
That's why the athiest mind will never be convinced, it's the mentality behind them....
It's impossible to find Joshua's photo ID amongst the rubble.
And that's what these non-believers will never understand.
I doubt that even if something equivalent to an ID was found, they would recognize the sight as the actual battle field....

Droopy Eye said:

The Jews came to Canaan, in what is generally considered the defining event of Jewish history, still celebrated by Passover, the Jewish exodus from Egypt. Evidence outside the bible is quite contradictory. Though the writing of the story itself does not contain many inconsistencies, certainly the originator of the story had some travels in Egypt. For one, in all the vast hieroglyphic inscriptions left by the Egyptians, in which they detail, painfully sometimes, the people they come in contact with, there is only one mention of the Jews. There is but one mention of a group of people named the Israelites in an inscription on a monument by the Pharaoh Sheshonk (the biblical Shishak). This is in fact strange indeed, if the Jews were enslaved as they bible claims, it is amazing that the Egyptians did not mention them in any meaningful way. However a vacuum of evidence is not disproof.
Ok first this "article" says that the Jews were already living in Canaan. And now it says that they "came" to Canaan.

Ok what ever, lets move on.
Evidence outside the bible regarding the Exodus is not contradictory.
The problem is that there is no evidence of the Exodus, thus far.
It's only a matter of time....

Droopy Eye said:

What is perhaps more important is that we have records of the story an exodus from Egypt. We have numerous records of this story, what is important about that is that we have these records from other peoples in the area. In fact, a story about an exodus from Egypt by a defining character akin to Moses was in other cultures before the Jews long before we ever have a written record of the story in Jewish circles. By the time the Jews adopted it into their belief system the story was an incredibly popular myth circulating around the Levant in a number of belief systems, all believing that they had been exiled.
Ok where is this evidence?
This sounds very similar to the fabricated theory that the legend of Jesus was borrowed from the Egyptian God, Horace....

Droopy Eye said:

This is not the only story to have been borrowed. The most obvious one is the story of Noah and the Ark. Long have people pointed to the Epic of Gilgamesh and its story of a flood that wiped out most of humanity except for one man as proof that there was some flood. The similarity, it turns out, is not coincidental. In the original Sumerian version, the sky god Enlil was angered with humanity and decided to punish them with a flood, sparing only the most righteous man, a man by the name of Ziusudra. By the time of the Epic of Gilgamesh the man's name had changed to Utnapishtim, to reflect the language change of the day. However, this myth was popular and spread to the Hurrians, and eventually later found its way into the Hebrew belief system. This process is known as syncretism, a borrowing of one religion to another. The ancient world did not look down upon this.
According to the Sumerians, the supreme God is about to make his return with in 15 or 20 years at most.
Lets see if in case Genesis really borrowed from the Sumerian tablets....
Just wanna point out the fact that we still don't see Nebula in our telescopes....

Droopy Eye said:

So, it is highly unlikely that the Jews ever fled Egypt, or that they were ever there at all. Most likely the only contact they had with them directly was during Egypt's days of trading in ancient Syria. This view is supported by archeological evidence, which places them as native inhabitants of Canaan, one that took part of Canaan culture, originally fully believed in the Canaan religion, but was an ethnic subgroup.
That paragraph contradicts archeology....

Droopy Eye said:

So where then, is the proof that Yahweh, and Jewish beliefs stemmed from Canaanite religion, since Judaism is so different? The evidence is quite numerous, that chronicles a slow change from the Canaanite mainstream, to an offshoot, to an eventual establishment of a religion in its own right. The Jews were originally, as were all Canaanites, a polytheistic religion. The Canaanites worshiped El as the supreme god, but El was a distant an uninvolved god. Most commonly they worshiped Baal who was an active god in the world, and a storm and sky god. The Canaanites believed that there were a number of divine manifestations of Baal, collectively called the Baalim. One of these Baalim was Yah (Yahweh). It should be noted that all this is taking place before the writing of any of the passages in the Hebrew Bible. Among the Hebrews over time Yah took on stronger and stronger powers and gained more worship. This process is not uncommon; something that happens in many polytheistic religions is that one god gains favoritism and possibly eventually gets worshipped by itself.
This is all a theory, with really no evidence to support it.
Hmmmm.... Someone's really losing sleep on this one.
Seems that they're hell bent on connecting Yahweh and Molech.
(That's my gutt feelin).... (Usually my gutt feelin's correct).
We shall see in the future....

Droopy Eye said:

The name Yah itself is a reflection of its Baalim origins. The word Yah is not a name, but a title. It comes from the Aramaic word meaning to blow, as in a storm god's wind. The original Jews, even after Yahweh took primacy, were polytheistic. The Jews continued to worship the old Canaanite gods alongside Yahweh, only worshipping Yahweh as supreme. There is ample evidence to support this. Ashtarte (also known as Ishtar, or Inanna) was worshipped as Yahweh's divine consort. There are numerous remains left by the Jews to testify this. For one there was a shrine to Ashtarte within the Temple to Yahweh in Jerusalem. Moreover pottery has been found depicting Yahweh in the center of the piece, and Ashtarte next to him, represented as consorts often are in ancient near eastern art. The Decalogue itself, part of the book of Deuteronomy one of the earlier books to be written reflects this. The commandment states that, "Thou shalt hold no god before me, for I am a jealous god." It does not however, say that there are no other gods. And the Jewish practice reflected this. They worshipped other gods, but never on the level as Yahweh.
This is all based on the writers assumption that both the Canaanites and Jews were the same people....
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#89
Droopy Eye said:
Over time however, the trend towards monotheism continued. By the time many of the books of the bible were written, that trend was complete. The Jews condemned the worship of Baal (the origin of their own god) and many others. Eventually they came to the belief that they should not worship any other gods. This had largely happened by the time of the prophet Hosea (believe to be around 800 B.C.). The Jews however, did not necessarily disbelieve the other gods, they simply felt that Yahweh was their god, and that he demanded sole worship. It was to the ancient Jew by that time, moot whether other gods existed.
The Jews worshipped only one God because they believed in what their prophets taught them.
They understood that these other so called Gods were none other than pure deceptive evil. (according to the prophets).

Droopy Eye said:

The trend from polytheism to monotheism was not the only change in Jewish worship. Nor was the borrowing of the myths of Noah and the Exodus the only elements that were borrowed into the Jewish, and later Christian and Islamic belief systems. Modern Christianity, as well as some early sects of Judaism (though not all) owes much to Zoroastrianism.
The change from Judaism to Christianity is a matter of personal pride....

Droopy Eye said:

Zoroastrianism itself sprung from the pre-existing religion in the Persian area. The pre-existing religion worshipped two sorts of sprits, the good (the Ahuras), and the bad (the Daevas). The start of Zoroastrianism however, came with the birth of Zoroaster, whom it is believed was born no later than the sixth century B.C. but possibly several centuries earlier. Zoroastrianism, it should be noted, had no effect on the writings of the Old Testament, most of which had solidified by that time, and so it did not effect the written word. Zoroaster preached that there was the source of ultimate good, known as Ahura Mazda. Ahura Mazda was associated with infinite wisdom (something the ancient Jews did not hold their god to), light, truth, and righteousness. Many elements of Zoroastrianism seem familiar, and it is not by coincidence. Zoroaster preached that the enemy of Ahura Mazda was Ahriman, who represented all the forces of evil. This cosmic dualism, of ultimate good and evil is of course a familiar Christian and Islamic concept.
I always understood that the Persian world already had their religion long before Judaism. Isn't that correct?

Droopy Eye said:

Zoroastrianism helped define the modern concept of angels. Early Jews did believe in angels long before Zoroastrianism, however not in the stylized manner many today do. Early Jews believed that angles did not have wings, and that they came to earth via a large ladder descending from heaven. They were poorly defined in terms of their roles, in fact our word angel comes from the Greek word angelos meaning messenger. However, Zoroastrianism also had Angels, it characterized them as having wings, and acting as the servants of Ahura Mazda, ready to aid people in the battle against Ahriman. They also had orders, which almost identically reflect the orders of Cherubim, Seraphim, and the other orders of angels, both in duty and in number. Zoroastrianism also contained the concept of demons.
Read the book of Enoch for the real deal on Angels and Demons....

Droopy Eye said:

Zoroaster was the first to claim that all persons had free will to choose to be good or evil. This concept was not yet in the belief systems of the area, Judaism included. In Zoroastrianism, all people had free will to choose, and though Ahura Mazda stood as true light, Ahriman tried to trick and deceive them into evil. After some time, an apocalypse would occur in which all the angels of Ahura Mazda would battle all the devils of Ahriman. Before this event a deceiver would be sent by Ahriman to confuse all of humanity from Ahura Mazda, but in the end Ahura Mazda would prevail.

In Zoroastrianism the concept of life after death was expressly stated, one that was very vague at the time in Judaism. It was the belief that those who had followed the path of good, that of Ahriman would be rewarded with a heavenly existence, while those who had fallen from the path into darkness would fall into a hell, where they would be punished for their sins. All of these notions were completely unknown in the Jewish community at the time, these ideas having yet to appear there. Zoroastrianism did have notion that never wore off on the later religions, and it is that they believed that though all sinners would be punished after death, when the apocalypse came, all those in hell would be saved and see the light of Ahura Mazda, and join the rest in heaven.

As can be seen, many concepts familiar today in Christianity are contained in Zoroastrianism, but many of these concepts are not reflected in the Hebrew bible, and appear only in Christianity. There is a historical reason for this yet again. The Jews had had no contact with Zoroastrianism for some time, until the two Jewish tribes making up the kingdom of Judea were forcibly removed by the Assyrians into Babylonia. Here they came into contact with Zoroastrian ideas. While Zoroastrian ideas did not overcome the whole of the Jewish populous, it made serious inroads among many sectors of Jewish society. When the Jews were allowed to return home by Cyrus the Great, the Persian conqueror who defeated the Assyrians, they took many ideas home with them.
All this is covered in the Enochian scriptures, also found with in the scribes in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Could've it not been that Zoroastrianism borrowed from these scribes?

Droopy Eye said:

The concept of Satan at this time takes a serious turn. Previous to the captivity Satan was simply another angle serving Yahweh. The role of Satan was is clearly seen in the Book of Job where Satan acts as an agent to try and instill doubt into Job, but it is only with Yahweh's consent that Satan acts. Satan is then seen as a force of Yahweh, not as evil in and of himself. After the captivity though, many sectors of Judaism started to view Satan as akin to Ahriman, and accordingly, in some groups Satan took on the role of Ahriman, and Yahweh also took on more roles of Ahura Mazda. This transformation was not universal in all sectors of Judaism, indeed, not in most.
Satan was talked about long before Job was written about.
All it takes is a few minutes and you will find it.
Satan wasn't introduced to the bible "suddenly".....

Of coarse Satan was and is a servant of God.
The bible has made it very clear that even evil bow's down.
The Demons always did it to Jesus.....

Droopy Eye said:

What is important however, is that it did take place in one sector that would go on to have its own impact on history. That is, the group of Jews who would make up the early embryo of Christianity. These concepts found their way into the belief system of the early Christians, who claimed the ideas as their own. The Judeo-Christian system has taken a long evolution from its beginnings as a worship of a Canaanite storm god to that of cosmic dualism, the battle between good and evil. None of this however, can disprove divinity, it does however, call into question the validity of almost every religious practice that exists in any set religious system of Judeo-Christianity. Indeed every religion has its orthodoxy, that is nearly always contradictory with its historical origin, and Judeo-Christianity is no different.
I won't argue against this. Ask Jews what they think about Christians, then turn around and ask Christians what do they think about Muslims....
There will always be heretic people twistin shit around....

It's an ego thing....
 
May 16, 2002
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#92
This relates to the question of the very first post in this thread.

You ever seen a person who got in a car accident and went into a coma when they where like let's say 15? It's like they have the body of a forty year old but the mentality is still the same as when they got into the accident or less depending on what they can remember when they come out of the coma.

Would that person be considered older or younger then somebody who was 27, if they had the intelligence level of a fifteen year old?

If you keep using one box to stand on to reach something and it's not tall enough, and I come along and use two boxes and I reach the something and have had like five years to study it. Even tho I'm only 13, and you didn't reach the something and figure out how to use the two boxes to reach that same something until you were 39, am I "older" and wiser about the something then you are? And if when you reach the something and after studying it for only a year you figure out it does something that I didn't figure out it did after five years of studying it are you more "older" and wiser about the something but not "older" and wiser about the two boxes?

The answer is yes.

Experience and knowledge measure your age in my opinion not years on the earth. I think that's what the Bible meant about 900 years old and stuff. And maybe that does tie in with your "we used to know how to use more of our brains back then" theory. The more oppression we face the dumber we get, it's just a scientificly common sensed fact of life. Oppression keeps us from experience and knowledge.

When the Bible says God is all knowing it means he already knows everything you could possibly think of or experience here on Earth cuz He's already past the Earth. God is the oldest and the wisest. That's why He is God, that's who we learn from and how.

God is order and understanding of one another. Without this we are alone and confused. God is Love and Jesus is the way to understanding Love.

We lost our way by oppressing each other. We started to get dumber. We needed some help cuz there wasn't one man on the Earth that could remember the way things were supposed to be. God sent us Jesus to fix things. He is our chosen king, the next in line to God.

That's what I believe.
 
Nov 8, 2002
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#93
Big Bang Theory and the Evolution theory.... Both theories which make them not fact yet. Even if they have never been proved wrong, They still havent been proved right.
But i do remember a bone from a Boar being mistakin for the missing link between man and ape a couple decades ago. And all they found to reconstruct the "Ape Men" are what four to seven bones each? How many bones do we have?
with no known link yet to go from Amoeba to fish, or fish to land dweller found yet either?

Not only the Bible states long life in Genesis you can read it in other books. You were stating the oldest man "Found".

As for how old the earth is, We cant get a correct measurement.
Shit They carbon Dated a bone and it was said to be 30,000 yrs old, It came from a Common pig that was dead for twenty years.

My guess would be Earth is 8,000 to 10,000 years old.

PS the flood is in Many history books from several cultures. Do a search and find some.
 
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ahem,
I said "guess' so its ok. I didnt say "Theory" so no science evidence is needed for me. did you get some yet? no?
Oh so do you carry yourself in the same boat I do?

And I was going of of the ancestry of a man, but the man you wouldnt care about nor would you acknowledge.
 
May 13, 2002
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#99
Gizmo said:
ahem,
I said "guess' so its ok. I didnt say "Theory" so no science evidence is needed for me.
So what is your REASON to believe that the earth is only 8,000 years old?


did you get some yet? no?
I have PLENTY of evidence that suggests the earth is MUCH older then 8,000 years.

And I was going of of the ancestry of a man, but the man you wouldnt care about nor would you acknowledge.
What man?
 
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2-0-Sixx said:
So what is your REASON to believe that the earth is only 8,000 years old?
read the bottom of my last post.



2-0-Sixx said:

I have PLENTY of evidence that suggests the earth is MUCH older then 8,000 years.
Suggest?
Well I suggest they find proof and not make suggestions. Suggestions= PROOF? No I dont think so.
We can run in circles on this. You have as much "PROOF" as I do.

2-0-Sixx said:

What man?
It would not matter. But the Ancestry of Abraham, David, Jesus.