Heresy - Sick Wid It - any pro producers......

[Mr. D-Sane]

I'm in the middle of a debate with a friend of mine named BILL over some production credits. Here's the scenario:

I recorded a track for my partner STEVE......he made the beat and is rappin' on the track. Because I recorded the track and oversaw it's creation......I'm taking production credits and giving him songwriting credits by saying that he made the beat.

So the credits look like this:

Produced by D-Sane
Beat by STEVE

Now......my partner BILL says that I souldn't be getting production credits because I didn't make the beat. His definition of a producer is "the person who had most to do with the music being created."

My definition is: In short.....making beats is NOT producing. Writing lyrics and rapping is not producing. Even doing both is not producing.....producing is the art of taking an artistic idea, fusing the different elements together and creating a final, finished product (a song). Producers coordinate everything. Which is what I do......regardless of who did the beat, who's idea it was and who is rappin' on the track.

What are your theories?

 

[BIG J]

You're right D, or you can at least say you did the Engineering

 

[eMDe]

damn

rap/hip hop needs to re evaluate our language.... i mean look at other forms of music...
In Rock a person playing guitar, drums, bass, and singing is still not allways considered the producer.

Personally i feel the payment for the "artist" credits should be 1/2 the creator of the "beat" should be given and 1/2 the rapper. but the production percentage should be seperate from artist.

 

[Kaze]

Half Sane and RHSteve???? i think the producer is the guy who puts the bits and pieces of the song together and makes a final product....... Its the person with the image on how the song should sound. and no i'm not a pro producer :classic: Just what i think....

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

Those are ficticious names.

OK.....so we're all pretty much on the same page then?

 

[Sick Wid It]

@D-Sane

We're on the same page. You should be given producer credits because in that scenario that's what you did. I wish everyone would get it through their mutha fuckin head that making beats does not make you a producer by any means!

 

[Kaze]

Those are ficticious names.

Lol i was wondering why it wasnt spelled B-ill :eyecross:

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

@D-Sane

We're on the same page. You should be given producer credits because in that scenario that's what you did. I wish everyone would get it through their mutha fuckin head that making beats does not make you a producer by any means!

Thank you very much.

 

[HERESY]

producing is the art of taking an artistic idea, fusing the different elements together and creating a final, finished product (a song). Producers coordinate everything. Which is what I do......regardless of who did the beat, who's idea it was and who is rappin' on the track.

100% ACCURATE.

I recorded a track for my partner STEVE......he made the beat and is rappin' on the track. Because I recorded the track and oversaw it's creation......I'm taking production credits and giving him songwriting credits by saying that he made the beat.

OR YOU CAN WRITE "COMPOSED BY STEVE".

Now......my partner BILL says that I souldn't be getting production credits because I didn't make the beat. His definition of a producer is "the person who had most to do with the music being created."

TELL BILL I SAID TO SHUT THE HELL UP. GIVE HIM ONE NAME. QUINCY JONES.

YOU ARE DOING THE CORRECT AND LEGAL THING.


HERESY

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

100% ACCURATE.

OR YOU CAN WRITE "COMPOSED BY STEVE". TELL BILL I SAID TO SHUT THE HELL UP. GIVE HIM ONE NAME. QUINCY JONES.

YOU ARE DOING THE CORRECT AND LEGAL THING.


HERESY

Thanks for responding.

I already threw the name Quincy Jones at him......it went over his and his partners head.

My boy and his friend are both saying that things are "different" nowadays because it's Hip-Hop. Basically saying that......."producer" doesn't mean the same thing it used to mean. According to him.......what I do is only considered "engineering." Whoever made the beat is the "producer" and whoever recorded it is an "engineer." I don't know about you........but I went to college for audio engineering.......and there is a difference between the 2.

 

[HERESY]

My boy and his friend are both saying that things are "different" nowadays because it's Hip-Hop. Basically saying that......."producer" doesn't mean the same thing it used to mean.

lol!!!!!! the music business does NOT change according to genre. a contract is a contract. a point is a point. royalties are royalties. a mixer is a mixer. what the hell are they talking about??????? hell if its changed you would see certain rules pertaining to hip hop ONLY. certain legalities would be for hip hop ONLY. that isnt the case..........



:H:

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

This is a copy of my rebuttal.......I'm open for commentary....for those with the patience to read....lol. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.

The term PRODUCER became distorted when kids/rap fans that have no understanding of the technical aspect of the music production process figured that a producer was someone who "makes the beats".......because many of the rap producers DO make beats. So.....since Dr. Dre is a "producer" AND he makes beats......that must be what a "producer" is?!?! NOPE......SORRY. It's easy to understand why so many people confuse the 2.....especially in rap music. But that's because that's the only thing that is tangible to them besides the rapper.....the beats. They have no idea what actual producing is and that it is a science. Making beats IS NOT producing a SONG! It's just a plain old beat. Maybe you're a "beat producer" because you "produced" a beat......but that form of the word "produce" means nothing more than you created a beat or some music. It's not the same defintion as pertains to a "recording producer."

Let's expand this....I'll draw a simple parallel. What is a film producer? Do they write scripts? Do they act? NO. (But they CAN.....and that would be multiple job titles/credits.) They have a very specific job....that has nothing to do with the creative process. Their job is to take the idea (that has already been created) for a movie and make it a reality.

Do music producers write songs? Do they sing and play them? NO. (But they CAN.....and that would be multiple job titles/credits.) They have a very specific job....that has nothing to do with the creative process. Their job is to take the idea for the song (music and lyrics) that has ALREADY been written and make it a reality. Bob may have wrote a song....music and the lyrics. The Dorks play it......a dude named Jim sings it......and D-Sane records it and controls how it sounds. I tell The Dorks how to play.....I tell Jim how to sing and which mic to use.....and I control the overall outcome of how the song sounds. Now you're gonna say "but this is Hip-Hop....it's different." No it's not.......you just want it to be.

I could go on for days showing you evidence to back my claims. You have nothing to show me to back your claims. If you were told your whole life that the sky is pink.....does that mean it is? I have displayed other non-biased opinions that concur with my statements.....you came with a co-signer who is going to give me a concurring opinion based on the fact that BOB is basically your mentor/teacher when it comes to music production. Saying that your definition is true and correct because Hip-Hop is a newer genre of music is rediculous as well. All you're saying is basically "this is what I was taught and this is what I know." And most likely it's what BOB thinks and told you as well.

Both of your guys theories pretty much went out the window the second I said "you don't have to be a musician or songwriter to be a producer." Because there are MANY, MANY, MANY record producers out there that NEVER touch a keyboard, drum machine, guitar, trumpet or microphone! So you're saying that Riq Roq is wrong.....the Cambridge Dictionary is wrong.....my teachers in college were wrong......record labels are wrong.....and that you HAVE TO BE a musician to be a producer? That's comedy.

I think that it's plain to see the textbook definitions make it clear that "producing" has absolutely nothing to do with the actual creation of the music......but with the RECORDING of the SONG! Creating, writing and playing music is one thing.....but RECORDING a song is another story. There is a fine line there that you don't see because it has been blurred. They are 2 totally different animals.

Also....I peepd your credits from "YOUR ALBUM" a long time ago and was totally confused by them. Now I understand why. You're the only person I've seen that has broken credits down like that. "BEAT MAKER" would be the keyboard/drum programmer/composer and get his writing credits (aka Beat by BEAT MAKER)......but BOB should have gotten production credits....since he did the majority of the work to actually make the song. You're confusing song writing with song production......again.....2 totally different animals.

And yes......if Dr. Dre gave me an instrumental beat and I recorded the lyrics and everything else.....then I produced it. Just like when Daz or Mel-Man made a beat and Dre recorded the song.....HE produced it! Who produced The Chronic album? Dr. Dre. But did he do all of the beats? Nope.

I guess KORG, ROLAND and all the other keyboard and drum machine manufacturers should throw "YOU'RE NOW A PRODUCER!!" certificates in with their products.....since that's all it takes these days? And they better re-write ALL of the college programs across the world to reflect this new aspect of music too. Because there are legions of people graduating without the correct knowledge of what a producer is!

Here's a quote from our last e-mail......

This is the Cambridge Dictionary definition of producing.....(from me)

produce (RECORDING)/ verb:
to be in charge of making (a musical recording) and to be responsible for the arrangement of the music, the combination of the different instruments or voices and the general sound of it

From "BOB"
The very nature of “production” is much different today than it was in the past. The process of making a beat on a drum machine/sampler encompasses the majority of the “arrangement”, “picking the instruments”, and the “general sound” of the song. All that is left generally is for the rapper to perform his lyrics over this track. Thus in hip-hop (especially hip hop in the raw without live instruments and r&b choruses) the “beat maker” is at the very least a co-producer and in most cases the sole-producer….

Sincerely, BOB the All-Knowing

(Me) If only music was that simple.....and catz have been trying for a while to simplify it to match your definition. Your interpretation of the definition above is incorrect. You could manipulate it and take it out of context for your argument if you like......but it doesn't make a reference to the music writing process.....which is what making beats is. It refers to the recording process......hence the reason it says (a musical recording). Just because you make a beat.......don't mean you're making a song.

The tools may have changed over the years......but the fundamental methods and science of recording HAVE NOT. What does making a beat have to do with RECORDING a song? NOTHING. Anybody can pound on some keys and buttons! But who can put the music & vocals together and make it sound good? Not too many people. It's a skill that is learned over time.......not bought with your keyboard! That's why the term "overnight producers" was created as a put down to these new booties that don't have a clue what a REAL producer is and what they do. Becuause too many idiots think that because they make beats.....that makes them a "producer."

All drum machines and work stations have done is replace live musicians and make composing music easier. Whether you sit down and write out score on paper.......and then have people come in and play your music in the studio......or you make a beat on a drum machine......it's still considered composing/songwriting. Nothing more.....nothing less. The person that takes that music and puts it together on tracks with vocals in a studio and PRODUCES A FINISHED PRODUCT....is the producer.

 

[HERESY]

WHO THE HELL IS BOB???????????

does he need a list of books and reference material?????? i can post a lot of that if youw ould like d-sane.

bob if you are reading this SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!

bob i am in the process of PRODUCING a cd. from actually choosing the mics to mic the guitars with to choosing the bass head and amps to selecting what type of mixer i wanted to use.

i told shad how to play guitar and what chords and slids to use.
i told mateo what to scratch and where to scratch.

i composed the music from samples,live playing and midi.

please do not confuse COMPOSER with PRODUCER (although i did both).

you cant argue with BUSINESS.


dsane who the hell is bob???????


:H:

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

If I told you who BOB & BILL were.......you wouldn't believe me. Let's just say that BOB is a pretty popular and established producer.........who SHOULD know better. But for some reason.....doesn't?

I'm going to make reference to this post.......so maybe one or both will reveal themselves for some education?

 

[Cool Nutz]

Since D-Sane wants to make this an open debate, I will join in on this. The Bill that he is referring to is me. This is my arguement with D-Sane. He says that if he made a BEAT and sent it to you, and all you did was track the vocals and mix it, you should get production credit. I don't have a problem with anyone getting production credit, but how can an engineer get production credit when all he did was engineer? If I make a track, and go into the studio and record it, does the engineer get production credit for my idea? NO.

You are changing shit around and not telling people the exact story here. I am asking D-Sane what his input was on a particular song for my comp, and he is saying that he produced it because he added effects and mixed it. I don't have a problem with giving anyone credit for their input creatively, but don't take credit for something you didn't do. No if you helped arrange the song, or came up with some lyrics or something, then I could understand that. But if your arguement is, that you added effects, and mixed it, then your stealing credit.

Like on the Verbal Porn album, if Funkdaddy made the BEAT, and sent it to me on ADAT, and all we do is track vocals and mix, we cannot take production credit for Funks production or creation. All Bosko did was engineer the track, and mix it. He had no input on the arrangement or anything else, all he did was engineer the session.

How many of you would be mad if you sent D-Sane a track, and all he did was track vocals to it, and mix it, and the album comes out, and it says produced by D-Sane on the credits? That is engineering. You didn't write any music, you didn't arrange anything. All you did was sit behind a computer and click on the Input Icon to change mic inputs. So I guess that constitutes production?

I guess if you go to a commercial studio, and use their engineer to track and help mix, he should get production credit? Maybe if he had some actual involvment in the creation or arrangement of the music, but otherewise no, he doesn't deserve production credit for simply enigineering the session.

I have worked with a number of industry professionals, and have not once seen any of them give production credit to someone who simply engineers the session. This is my arguement. My arguement isn't really about the term producer, it is about your actual involvement in the creation of a particular song.

You are trying to use some technical terms, to give yourself more credit for something you simply engineered. Now if you can say that you actually did more then engineer the song, then I will be glad to accept the fact that you produced the track.

 

[Cool Nutz]

@ hersey

I understand all of that. But would you want the engineer to take all the credit for your composition and your production? That is my simple point here. You are doing all the work, the engineer is simply there to facilitate your vision and make sure that it gets on the tape through the correct signal path. Does he get production credit for tracking your ideas and vision?

And before you tell someone to shut the hell up, you need to get both sides of the story. Becaue you know "D-Sane is always right".

I know what I'm talking about, and have recorded albums, and been in alot ofsessions, then those in my bedroom. I have worked with numerous artists, engineers, producers, composers, and musicians. It's a shame how someone can try so hard to be right that they will paint the wrong arguement for the public.

If you did the work, you deserve the credit. If you didn't you don't. It's as simple as that. If you enigineered, take engineering credit. If you actually had something to do with the production of the work, then you should get that credit as well.

 

[Sick Wid It]

Ok, here's a quick way to squash this....

In short, producing is taking charge of the direction of the music. A producer is somebody who has significant influence on the end result.

If D-Sane just recorded & mixed all the parts that Cool Nutz said to record, without having any real input on the outcome of the song, the appropriate credit would be engineering. Adding reverb and things like that doesn't constitute producing.


If Cool Nutz came in, relayed his ideas to D-Sane and D-Sane took over from there, directing the session to make that idea happen (meaning D-Sane was the one telling everyone what to do to make the idea a reality), engineering & producing credits are appropriate.


If Cool Nutz came in and both him & D-Sane collaborated on what should be done throughout the entire song. They both should receive producer credits. Whoever was hitting record, controlling the tracking, editing, etc..should receive engineering credits.


It's this simple.. Make two versions of the song... One that impliments the ideas contributed by D-Sane and one that doesn't. If the difference between the two is significant then yes, D-Sane deserves a producer credit. Whether it be producer or co-producer depends on how big that difference is.

 

[HERESY]

@bill / cool nutz . first off let me reply to some things you said.

I understand all of that. But would you want the engineer to take all the credit for your composition and your production?

for my album (that im recording in a BIG studio) i AM the MIX engineer. hell i will even take the back seat and let the other guy have the engineers credits and i will take assnt credits.


executive producer : I AM
all songs MIXED,ARRANGED,COMPOSED,PRODUCED by HERESY for TIP TOE IS BACK PUBLISHING ascap.

no engineer would EVER take ALL of my credit because i am INVOLVED.

That is my simple point here. You are doing all the work, the engineer is simply there to facilitate your vision and make sure that it gets on the tape through the correct signal path. Does he get production credit for tracking your ideas and vision?

in some cases you will se TRACKING ENGINEER,RECORDING ENGINEER,MIX ENGINEER ETC ETC ETC.
what has he PRODUCED????? HOW LONG HAS HE BEEN *INVOLVED* WITH THIS PROJECT????????? this guy isnt telling me i want a plate verb on those pianos and i think you should eq the verb before it gets bussed to the aux. IM TELLING HIM that. im telling HIM to mic the guitars AND to record the guitar DIRECT. im the one who is choosing the mics and bass heads. how is he a producer? what has he done? where is HIS vision?

And before you tell someone to shut the hell up, you need to get both sides of the story. Becaue you know "D-Sane is always right".

NO HE ISNT!!!!!!!! D-SANE AND I DISAGREE OVER DIGITAL AND ANALOG. HE ISNT GOD. IM NOT GOD. EVERYTHING IS SIMPLY PREFERENCE.

I know what I'm talking about, and have recorded albums, and been in alot ofsessions, then those in my bedroom. I have worked with numerous artists, engineers, producers, composers, and musicians. It's a shame how someone can try so hard to be right that they will paint the wrong arguement for the public.

is this comment direct at me????? you know what your talking about yet you have no clue on what a producer is or what a producer does. you recorded albums? i am recording 4 albums in 3 months time at this place:http://www.prairiesun.com/. click the link and hit STUDIO A.

i have also helped OTHERS record albums (i will be helping GOLDIE GOLD of the FEDERATION on his solo project) you have sat in on a lot of sessions? I have set in on a lot of sessions. from DAP to EARTHQUAKE STUDIOS to RED ROCK to DIFFERENT FUR in frisco.

I have worked with numerous artists, engineers, producers, composers, and musicians.

same here whats your point? im not implying that you havent done these things however i do sense that you have a warped/tainted view on what a producer is/does.

It's a shame how someone can try so hard to be right that they will paint the wrong arguement for the public.

is this directed at me? look in the mirror and ask yourself what a producer is. better yet hit www.artistpro.com and leave a message for mike lawson. ask him what a producer.

If you did the work, you deserve the credit. If you didn't you don't. It's as simple as that. If you enigineered, take engineering credit. If you actually had something to do with the production of the work, then you should get that credit as well.

will you say that when its time to get producers royalties?

How many of you would be mad if you sent D-Sane a track, and all he did was track vocals to it, and mix it, and the album comes out, and it says produced by D-Sane on the credits? That is engineering. You didn't write any music, you didn't arrange anything. All you did was sit behind a computer and click on the Input Icon to change mic inputs. So I guess that constitutes production?

if i selected what format for him to use,what to talk about,what instruments to use and even told him that i wanted him to mix to half inch tape i would be the producer. if i searched for studios and i found a spot that offered 5 mixing consoles and i would say lets use this one "blah blah blah". im producing the song,record whatever.

does quincy jones play? does he sit behind the boards?

I guess if you go to a commercial studio, and use their engineer to track and help mix, he should get production credit? Maybe if he had some actual involvment in the creation or arrangement of the music, but otherewise no, he doesn't deserve production credit for simply enigineering the session.

jason at prairie sun will get credits for mixing/engineering. if kev ski wants to come in and help out he will be assnt engineer. hell if YOU want to come in and help you will get the credit also. as far as producer what have you produced? you havent told me to make a song like this or use guitars that sound like blah blah blah with this type of stomp box to use. nor have you selected which studio to go to.


if a guy puts up the money for a bands demo and he shops the demo and gets a deal. what is he? if he takes the money from the deal and decides what studio to use,what equipment to use,how to sing,when to sing,what parts to play etc etc etc what is he?

I have worked with a number of industry professionals, and have not once seen any of them give production credit to someone who simply engineers the session. This is my arguement. My arguement isn't really about the term producer, it is about your actual involvement in the creation of a particular song.

i would agree with you. if all the guy did was track the session he is the tracking/recording guy. at some studios a DIFFERENT guy takes over the MIXING stage (im sure you know this). i keep stressing "what have you done?" "how have you been involved"?



this is from d sane:

My boy and his friend are both saying that things are "different" nowadays because it's Hip-Hop. Basically saying that......."producer" doesn't mean the same thing it used to mean. According to him.......what I do is only considered "engineering." Whoever made the beat is the "producer" and whoever recorded it is an "engineer."

now if you indeed did say that things are DIFFERENT because its hip hop that would mean that a lot of verbage and words in contracts would be changed according to GENRE. i dont think thats the case in the music business. btw you seem like an educated person who does have insight and has worked on projects. i dont know who you are nor have i heard your work so when i say shut the hell up its based on what has been previously posted.

d-sane said:

producing is the art of taking an artistic idea, fusing the different elements together and creating a final, finished product (a song). Producers coordinate everything. Which is what I do......regardless of who did the beat, who's idea it was and who is rappin' on the track.

he was correct. if the person is NOT doing these things he or she isnt a producer.

bob/ Cool Nutz when you said that

the “beat maker” is at the very least a co-producer and in most cases the sole-producer…

if that "beatmaker" said "YOUR GOING TO RAP ABOUT THIS AND WE ARE GOING TO DO BLAH BLAH BLAH" yes he is a producer. if he said NOTHING and just gave the beat to the rapper he should be a COMPOSER because he scored/composed the music and NOT dialog.


sick wid it gave a logical explanation.




NOW EVERYONE PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:h:

 

[Cool Nutz]

@ Hersey & Sick Wid It

You are both saying everything that I was trying to say to D-Sane. I am in full agreement with everything that is said, and don't have any disputes with what you have just posted. My main issue, is with an engineer getting producer credits. It seems that both of you understand the point that I am trying to make. Like I said, if you did the work you get the credit. And this doesn't just apply to D-Sane, but anyone producing or engineering.


All I asked D-Sane, was who actually produced the track? And this is what he said:

"Well Terrance you see it's like this........in the world of Hip-Hop the term "producer" has been severely distorted and misused. Makin' a "beat" does not qualify you to be a "producer"......at least not by industry definition & standards. And not all producers make beats or are musicians.....believe it or not. The producer of the track is the person who actually "produces" the finished product.......which usually entails recording it, arranging it, applying effects and mixing it down."

And then it turned into him trying to prove his point to me about how engineers are producers.

 

[Cool Nutz]

This is the question I asked D-Sane:

On the song that Skunt is on, who actually produced the track? It says produced by D-Sane, but says beat by Skunt. Can you let me know the specifics for the credits?

The last post above is his response.

This is what I responded with:

"I have been in the game for a long time, and am fully aware of how credits break down. However, I don't agree with the theory. There are numerous categories for credit, and engineering does not constitute production credits. However, if this is how you guys operate, I can't dispute that. If this is the case, you should get engineering credit, and CO-production credit. If Skunt is fully responsible for creating the track musically, then he is the one that would get production credits. If you had some input regarding the music, then you would get CO-production credits. However, if you recorded the song, and added effects and the such, you would get engineering credits. This is how the industry works, and this is how credits are given. So do you get writers credits for the rhymes as well, since you recorded them as well? Let me know more about this theory."

This is just to let you see how the dispute breaks down.

And here is D-Sane's response to the message above:

Sorry this is so long......but I felt the need to prove my theory.

OK.....I understand your point. But, I have been in the game for a long time as well.....have produced a couple hundred songs, been making beats and producing for 12-13 years and went to college for audio engineering/production. Myself.....along with MANY other well known and professional producers don't consider making beats (aka writing and playing music) an element that constitutes actual production credits. We can test your theory......

- If I buy a beat from Bosko and he sends it to me, but I record the song up here.....did he produce the song? No. Would he get ANY production credits? No. Because all he did was write and play the music.....but had no hand in creating and overseeing the finished product.

- If I do a beat for you and send it to you, but you record the song at Bosko's.....did I produce the song? No. And I wouldn't expect any credits for something that I didn't do.

- If I have the London Symphony Orchestra come play the music.....did they produce the song? No. Even if they wrote the music? Nope

Now, how many of you would agree with an engineer taking your production credit? I wouldn't take production credit for D-Sane's track if all I did was engineer the session. I'm sure Dre, Bosko, and any other producer would be hot if the album came out and said it was produced by the enigineer of the session. This is my simple point. I fully understand the term producer, being that I have produced a number of albums from the ground up.