What, then, would you say to the theory that non-animate (or perhaps non-animal or even non-human) things are completely absent from the spiritual world? What is the base of your theory that all things physical are represented spiritually? If wood is completely lacking of any kind of animation or essence besides mere physicality, though it is eternal energy, would it not completely lack spiritual relevance? I guess if you ascribe to the view that even the inanimate physical world is manfested spiritually, you must believe God is everything.
GODLIKE?
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n9ne,
I like reading your posts...they are entertaining. The problem of course is, how did you obtain this knowledge of your god? If god truly is all of the things you claim, how the hell do you know? How do you know he is "eternal and thus unchanging"? How does one like yourself, gain knowledge of these characteristics of god?
I like reading your posts...they are entertaining. The problem of course is, how did you obtain this knowledge of your god? If god truly is all of the things you claim, how the hell do you know? How do you know he is "eternal and thus unchanging"? How does one like yourself, gain knowledge of these characteristics of god?
Well, I believe that the material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. A perverted reflection, at that. In the desert we may see a mirage that appears as water. Now, we should understand that it is just an illusion. This does not mean that water itself is an illusion, water really exists, just not there in the desert. Similarly, these material forms are illusory because they tend to be of a fleeting nature, but they have a place where they actually exist without such change. Some spiritualists, akin to Buddhism, believe that anything beyond the material world is unmanifest or "void". But I speak based upon the Vedas. As well, I am pretty sure that the Bible explains Heaven in a way similar to what this philosophy encompasses. Another quality I didn't mention is that the spiritual world is not dark, by any means. If it was unmanifest then it would be. But it is explained in the Vedas that everything is self-illuminant.
Sure, a chair in this world is non-living. But in the spiritual world, as I explained, all things are living energy. The spiritual relevance of the chair transcedes it's material relevance because the material world is a mirage of the spiritual. In all actuality, I am sure there is no real necessity for having a chair in heaven. But why go as far to say that there isn't such objects in the spiritual realm? If it was thus willed to have a chair, why would it be beyond the limits of the spiritual world?
Actually, nothing done in the spiritual realm is out of necessity. But rather, it is out of desire. The sanskrit word referring to God's Personal abode, the spiritual world, is "Vaikuntha", which means "no anxiety". In the material world we must perform all kinds of activity for the sustenance of these bodies, and thus there is an ever-enduring anxiety. In the spiritual world everything is done out of desire. And all desires center around God. That propensity to desire satisfaction is a part of our nature. In this material world we display that nature pervertedly. It is because we are attached to the results of our actions that causes us to suffer. The philosophy goes that we should offer the results of our work to God. This is known as karma-yoga. In the spiritual world, all things are done in offering to God and thus there is no question of bad reaction. That is the transcendental reciprocation between God and ourselves. We offer the fruits of work to God, and God gives us transcendental pleasure. If we seek pleasure divorced from the service of God, then we will be subject to bad reactions (karma).
It is not that the inanimate physical world is manifest spiritually, but rather that the variegated spiritual manifestation is, somewhat pervertedly, manifest in the material world.
You said, "you must believe God is everything."
In an absolute sense, God and His energies are non-different from each other. I believe that everything belongs to God, and under that notion, everything becomes godly. People who equate the sum total material energy as being all-in-all are basically thinking of it as "God". But those people are atheists. So it depends on the perspective. And actually, "material" just means "forgetful of God". Therefore, to use something material in the direct service of God makes that thing spiritual. So from the transcendental perspective, everything is spiritual **when it is used in the service of God**. But still, we must observe a difference in characteristics between material and spiritual energy from a scientific understanding.
Well, I am inclined, by dint of reason, to accept the philosophical premise of an eternal and intelligent existence behind all things. I see that as constituting a "stability", if you will, for the fleeting and non-intelligent (in itself) nature of the material energy. And also, it (the concept of God) constitutes the life principle that is resonsible for the manifestation and animation of otherwise unmanifest and inanimate energy. Other qualities come to play in the same line of reason, ie: omnipotence, fully independent, self-satisfied, etc. This is really more or less just an impersonal understanding of what we refer to as "God". Furthermore, I accept that, under the premise that God has no limits, that He is not merely impersonal. My understanding of His constitution comes from the Vedas. Therein it is described that there are three levels of understanding the supreme absolute truth (paratattva): The impersonal Brahman, Paramatma (the supersoul; God's plenary expansion residing within all living entities, even the microscopic ones), and the most confidential of knowledge is Bhagavan (the Supreme Personality). So therefore, I accept that God is both personal and impersonal, local to His Personal abode as well as all-pervading. That consitutes the "wholeness" of the existence of God. Otherwise, our understanding is lacking in one quality or the other.
God is unchanging because He constitutes that supreme, objectively knowable reality/entity. Objective knowledge does not change. For example, two plus two is four. It was four back in the day of your great great great great grandparents, it will be four in the day of your great great great great grandchildren. If God is subject under change then He is a material entity. Then in that case, this so called "God" is really not God.
One can gain knowledge of God, to a certain extent of impersonalism, by the jnana-yoga process. Jnana-yoga is the cultivation of knowledge through empiric philosophy. By that method one may understand the impersonal Brahman aspect. Further from this, if one is so inclined, knowledge of Personality can be gained through Scriptures, and/or Sastra (Scriptures revealed in India). At that point comes faith. If someone asked me how I know that Krsna is God, I could not answer in line with any logical conclusion. It is simply that I have been convinced that Krsna is God. I invite anyone to read the teachings for themselves. The proof of the pudding is in eating the pudding.
God is unchanging because He constitutes that supreme, objectively knowable reality/entity. Objective knowledge does not change. For example, two plus two is four. It was four back in the day of your great great great great grandparents, it will be four in the day of your great great great great grandchildren. If God is subject under change then He is a material entity. Then in that case, this so called "God" is really not God.
One can gain knowledge of God, to a certain extent of impersonalism, by the jnana-yoga process. Jnana-yoga is the cultivation of knowledge through empiric philosophy. By that method one may understand the impersonal Brahman aspect. Further from this, if one is so inclined, knowledge of Personality can be gained through Scriptures, and/or Sastra (Scriptures revealed in India). At that point comes faith. If someone asked me how I know that Krsna is God, I could not answer in line with any logical conclusion. It is simply that I have been convinced that Krsna is God. I invite anyone to read the teachings for themselves. The proof of the pudding is in eating the pudding.
so is life one big stepping stone in a souls quest?
if souls are eternal does that mean that there is something bigger than life, that is to say before we reach heaven or hell, a souls travels through time and space to fulfill some purpose...if a soul is eternal then that would mean reincarnation is real, or does it just mean that our bodies are temporary shells for a soul before moving on to the next level?
if souls are eternal does that mean that there is something bigger than life, that is to say before we reach heaven or hell, a souls travels through time and space to fulfill some purpose...if a soul is eternal then that would mean reincarnation is real, or does it just mean that our bodies are temporary shells for a soul before moving on to the next level?
When I say life yes I did mean material life forms meaning anything that is in this universe. But most importantly human life. Secondly just because God is eternal doesn't mean that 'life' is eternal. He created 'life' and because he created life it negates it from the concept of being eternal. The soul I don't believe was created at birth. My bible tells me that God knew me before my birth. So that leaves me with the only logical outcome: God created life and life is not eternal. God created the soul and since the soul can be destroyed it is not eternal. After our present life our life will be everlasting.
Ok, God knew you before birth. That means that you existed before this birth. When God says that He knew you before birth, He is addressing the fact that you more than likely do not remember yourself before birth.
God creating life means that He is responsible for creating these material lifeforms. It does not constitute that the soul was created. You deny the soul's eternality, but then you say that the soul was not created at birth. So when was it created? And if the soul has a beginning and thus has an end, then there can be no chance of "eternal salvation".
Reincarnation just means to change bodies. At one time you had the body of a child. Now you have the body of an adult. Thus you have changed bodies. The difficulty people have with this concept is whether or not this change occurs at the time of death. But it is only in logical sequence that if one is not eligible to transcend these changes, then they will remain subject to them. If it is a Christian matter of heaven or hell, then heaven means liberation and hell means reincarnation (or at least one form of it). It is explained in the Vedas that one may reincarnate into a better quality of life, or perhaps enter into a hellish life. As long as we act with attachments to the results of our work we will be subject to suffer them. That suffering will only cease by surrendering to God and offering your service to Him. That is the ultimate goal of life. Only then will one become eligible for entering into Vaikuntha, or Heaven. So as long as we are attached to this world we are prone to fall into hell. Actually, the only real purpose most of us have here is to remember who we are. Since we have no beginning, it should be understood that our coming into the material world was not done for any divine purpose. Somehow or another we fell, we desired to be God and we fell. We cannot conceive exactly how this came about. But I think the faulty idea most people have is that we were put here for God's Personal desire. God's desire was to fulfill our desires. It was not that God thought, "Hey wouldn't it be neat if I made little people?". This is child's philosophy. God has nothing to gain, thus why would He be inclined to manifest this material world? The only logical conclusion is that He did so due to our desires to lord it over material nature. We wanted to be enjoyers, apart from serving God, and this is what we got. But it is our consitutionally eternal nature to be related to God. Therefore, by denying that relationship we suffer. It is not that God wants you to believe in Him otherwise He's going to send you to hell. It is our position that is being compromised, and so we suffer. We are pretending to be something we are not. A pig in a slaughterhouse can pretend to be a very nice pony, but still he will be killed. So what we need to do is rectify our position, not pretend to be something we're not.
I have this book that is based on people who were once "clinically dead". These people were from different parts of the world, so they could not share the same story when they were interviewed and this book was written. They all had the same experiences, being out of body, seeing a tunnel with relatives and a light. HOWEVER, scientists have proven, and this fucked me up, they have proven that when you're brain DIES, you hallucinate for about 8 seconds, thus causing the light images and images of those you loved that passed before you. Its the same as if your head gets cut off. It takes 8 seconds for your brain to stop functioning, for all the oxygen to be released from your brain. If you were to get decapitated, you would actually SEE shit for that long, without feeling a damn thing and without really understanding what just happened. Kind of a scary thought.
With all of this information though, I still believe in life after death, and I didn't until about a year ago, which was 7 years after my best friend passed away. I had dreams about him for 7 years straight, where I woke up crying because in each dream at the end, he said..."I gotta go"...a girl I know had the same exact dream about the same cat, with the same ending. Then, last year, at the end of the dream he said..."I gotta go..." and I started trippin out. Before I woke up, like I usually did with the past dreams, he said..."It's all good man, don't worry, I'm alright...everything is gonna be alright." THEN, I woke up. Ever since I heard those words in my dream, I haven't had a dream about him....it's like he came to me in my sleep, from the dead, and told me not to worry about him because he's fine and life is fine. That is why I still believe in the afterlife....some deep shit. I woke up and said to myself, "I understand now, completely..", I didn't shed one tear that morning, and since then I haven't had one single dream about him.
With all of this information though, I still believe in life after death, and I didn't until about a year ago, which was 7 years after my best friend passed away. I had dreams about him for 7 years straight, where I woke up crying because in each dream at the end, he said..."I gotta go"...a girl I know had the same exact dream about the same cat, with the same ending. Then, last year, at the end of the dream he said..."I gotta go..." and I started trippin out. Before I woke up, like I usually did with the past dreams, he said..."It's all good man, don't worry, I'm alright...everything is gonna be alright." THEN, I woke up. Ever since I heard those words in my dream, I haven't had a dream about him....it's like he came to me in my sleep, from the dead, and told me not to worry about him because he's fine and life is fine. That is why I still believe in the afterlife....some deep shit. I woke up and said to myself, "I understand now, completely..", I didn't shed one tear that morning, and since then I haven't had one single dream about him.
agreed.
How do you know the soul wasn't created? The Jewish faith along with my understanding show that the soul can be destroyed. The soul is not infinite/eternal. I don't know when the soul was created but i'm guessing sometime after creation and before my birth. Im not sure of the actual word used in the Hebrew/Greek for eternal but i'd wager it's not the same eternal we think of. And if it is then we have to remember that in Jewish thought the soul is compromised of 3 parts. Maybe a part of the soul is eternal as it may or may not be a projection of God. And maybe because of this it is wrong for us to classify the soul as a unique form when it is really a trinity.
How do you know the soul wasn't created? The Jewish faith along with my understanding show that the soul can be destroyed. The soul is not infinite/eternal. I don't know when the soul was created but i'm guessing sometime after creation and before my birth. Im not sure of the actual word used in the Hebrew/Greek for eternal but i'd wager it's not the same eternal we think of. And if it is then we have to remember that in Jewish thought the soul is compromised of 3 parts. Maybe a part of the soul is eternal as it may or may not be a projection of God. And maybe because of this it is wrong for us to classify the soul as a unique form when it is really a trinity.
Ok, I did an internet search through a Strong's Concordance for the Hebrew words used for "soul". Here is the link for the search:
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=soul
Tell me which one you want to use in this case. All the definitions seem a bit loose.
I have heard of the "three part person" concept. Is it not - body, soul and spirit? The soul, in this case (as I have heard from various Christians), is more or less described similar to the mind, intelligence, and/or false ego. The spirit is supposedly that through which one communicates to God.
First of all, the body is not part of the actual entity. The body is the covering. The soul (as far as I understand the term) is the entity. When the body dies is when the soul has departed. The body thus rots in the dirt (if it isn't cremated), and... no more body. There is another covering of the soul though. That is the subtle body, the mind, intelligence and false ego. That also is not the entity. It is the soul that uses the subtle body. The subtle body is not eternal. The gross body is not eternal. If the soul (actual entity) is not eternal then all religion is pointless. No one gains eternality. You are either perpetually in hell or you are liberated and reside with God personally. The human life is a means of rectifying one's position.
Your concept of spirit in this "trinity" is more or less what I understand as "Paramatma". This is the supersoul; God residing within each of us, to guide us when we need Him.
My understanding of spirit is that it is the quality of the soul. Material is to body, as spiritual is to soul. I think what you are referring to is the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).
Bottomline, if the soul has a beginning and thus has an end, then what Yeshua did was meaningless. Only if we accept that the soul forever exists will any kind of salvation be practical. If our existence completely ceases to be, then we would have no remorse for not accepting Jesus, because we would be dead.
The eternality of the soul is actually one of the main points of religion in general. The opposition to this is called atheism.
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=hebrewlexicon&isindex=soul
Tell me which one you want to use in this case. All the definitions seem a bit loose.
I have heard of the "three part person" concept. Is it not - body, soul and spirit? The soul, in this case (as I have heard from various Christians), is more or less described similar to the mind, intelligence, and/or false ego. The spirit is supposedly that through which one communicates to God.
First of all, the body is not part of the actual entity. The body is the covering. The soul (as far as I understand the term) is the entity. When the body dies is when the soul has departed. The body thus rots in the dirt (if it isn't cremated), and... no more body. There is another covering of the soul though. That is the subtle body, the mind, intelligence and false ego. That also is not the entity. It is the soul that uses the subtle body. The subtle body is not eternal. The gross body is not eternal. If the soul (actual entity) is not eternal then all religion is pointless. No one gains eternality. You are either perpetually in hell or you are liberated and reside with God personally. The human life is a means of rectifying one's position.
Your concept of spirit in this "trinity" is more or less what I understand as "Paramatma". This is the supersoul; God residing within each of us, to guide us when we need Him.
My understanding of spirit is that it is the quality of the soul. Material is to body, as spiritual is to soul. I think what you are referring to is the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).
Bottomline, if the soul has a beginning and thus has an end, then what Yeshua did was meaningless. Only if we accept that the soul forever exists will any kind of salvation be practical. If our existence completely ceases to be, then we would have no remorse for not accepting Jesus, because we would be dead.
The eternality of the soul is actually one of the main points of religion in general. The opposition to this is called atheism.
I'll take an exerpt from a book I own:
In the religion of ancient Israel, a person was not understood as an immortal, eternal, or deathless soul trapped in a body but as a living mixture of breath and earth. Humans were "earthlings," shaped from the clay and animated by the breath of God. A living person, or nepesh, depended on both of those elements for life. When the breath of God animated a person, that spirit might be reffered to as a neshamah, or a personalized spirit. But as death, the person dissolved as the elements of life returned to their sources. The breath went back to God, the clay returned to the earth.
Also the Soul is the Ruah, Nepesh, and Neshamah.In the Jewish religion two of the three are associated with sin the other isn't. This site explains it a bit better than I or my book did. Plus it diffirentiates the body.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jovial/learn/mc/neshneph.htm
That's the Jewish view on the soul. It's not mine necessarily but I do take some influence from it. As far as I know they did not view the soul as eternal. I don't think it's eternal either. God is the only thing that is eternal nothing else is. If the breath of life we receive from him is our soul then yes that would make us eternal but I don't see how something that is devine would need salvation.
The body is not part of the soul you are right. I never said it was. You assumed I said it was. But the Body is still important. Secondly I dont think you have to be eternal to enjoy never ending paradise. Just because you've suffered in this life doesn't mean the next life won't be unlimited in joy although not eternal.
If the Paramatma is a supersould then it is not a human soul, at least not in my religion or school of thought. It would most likely be something equivalent to the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. But I understand the guiding you and residing within each of us, although in Christianity the Holy Spirit does not reside within you but on you. That is why there are halos on people. It is the Holy Spirit residing on them.
Yeshua Ben Yosef said: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28). KJV
or :
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)
In the religion of ancient Israel, a person was not understood as an immortal, eternal, or deathless soul trapped in a body but as a living mixture of breath and earth. Humans were "earthlings," shaped from the clay and animated by the breath of God. A living person, or nepesh, depended on both of those elements for life. When the breath of God animated a person, that spirit might be reffered to as a neshamah, or a personalized spirit. But as death, the person dissolved as the elements of life returned to their sources. The breath went back to God, the clay returned to the earth.
Also the Soul is the Ruah, Nepesh, and Neshamah.In the Jewish religion two of the three are associated with sin the other isn't. This site explains it a bit better than I or my book did. Plus it diffirentiates the body.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jovial/learn/mc/neshneph.htm
That's the Jewish view on the soul. It's not mine necessarily but I do take some influence from it. As far as I know they did not view the soul as eternal. I don't think it's eternal either. God is the only thing that is eternal nothing else is. If the breath of life we receive from him is our soul then yes that would make us eternal but I don't see how something that is devine would need salvation.
The body is not part of the soul you are right. I never said it was. You assumed I said it was. But the Body is still important. Secondly I dont think you have to be eternal to enjoy never ending paradise. Just because you've suffered in this life doesn't mean the next life won't be unlimited in joy although not eternal.
If the Paramatma is a supersould then it is not a human soul, at least not in my religion or school of thought. It would most likely be something equivalent to the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. But I understand the guiding you and residing within each of us, although in Christianity the Holy Spirit does not reside within you but on you. That is why there are halos on people. It is the Holy Spirit residing on them.
Yeshua Ben Yosef said: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28). KJV
or :
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)
from what i got then 916 is that one who does not emrbace god in life is doomed for reincarnation to try and redeem his/her beliefs?...thats some shit to think about, becuse life does feel like hell sometimes...maybe we are living in hell already, till we fully love and understand god were doomed to repeat our lives here.
@sydal...i never heard of that hallucinating thing before...but then again, scientists have been shoving shit down ppls throats for years that proves theres no god, proves theres no this no that, disproving ppls beliefs left and right...but maybe thats all gods doing...to seperate the true believers from the non believers...a long time ago someone on this website posted some math problem that "proved" god didnt exist...i for one dont see how some numbers fractions and the root square of whatever the fuck proves something does not exist...but then again, ive never gotten past elementary algebra
@sydal...i never heard of that hallucinating thing before...but then again, scientists have been shoving shit down ppls throats for years that proves theres no god, proves theres no this no that, disproving ppls beliefs left and right...but maybe thats all gods doing...to seperate the true believers from the non believers...a long time ago someone on this website posted some math problem that "proved" god didnt exist...i for one dont see how some numbers fractions and the root square of whatever the fuck proves something does not exist...but then again, ive never gotten past elementary algebra
This sounds mayavadi. Mayavadi is a sect of philosophers, akin to the Buddhists, that believe that upon liberation, the living entity merges, or "dissolves" into the Source (God). Their philosophy states that all individuality is ultimately false. When it speaks here about the elements of life returning to their sources, it sounds very mayavadi. Plus, does the Bible explain that the soul dissolves back into the existence of God? Or does it explain a heaven where individuals continue to exist?
I'll check out the site a little later...
Perhaps that "breath of life" is supposed to be the entity. If there was no divinity in us then we would never be able to enter the spiritual world. We are constitutionally divine. It is just that our understanding has become like a dirty mirror. Once we clean that mirror we will be in our original position. Although both God and us are eternal, we are prone to fall, God never falls. Just in case you think I am attempting to equate us with God, this should be understood. I do not follow in the mayavadi philosophy. I follow that we are forever individuals, part and parcel of God. That is why it has been stressed (especially in the Bible) for us to understand our position in service to God. If our existence was only for a time, or if our individuality was false in which we would ultimately merge with God, then none of what has been taught would really matter.
I never said you said that. But, you mentioned the "three parts" of the person: body, soul and spirit. In which my point was that the body is *not* part of the person whatsoever. To think the body as self, or any part of self is false ego. You get in a car, you do not think, "I am the car". That is my point. Yes, the body is important. We must keep the body clean outside by washing, and clean inside through our devotional service to God.
Why wouldn't you think one needs to be eternal to enjoy never-ending paradise? That is like saying one doesn't need a tongue to enjoy the taste of candy.
If we aren't eternal then at some point in our "enjoying never-ending paradise" we will cease to exist. Everything in the spiritual world is eternal. God, being absolute, is non-different from His place of residence. And anything that enters into such a place must be, by constitution, of that same nature, eternal. Simply put, if we are not eternal then we have no place in heaven whatsoever. Just as sin cannot enter heaven, temporal forms cannot enter.
No, I wasn't saying that Paramatma was the individual soul. And yes, my comparison of Paramatma to your understanding of spirit was my thinking that this understanding of spirit was the same, or similar, to the Holy Spirit. Within you, upon you, why not? There are also "halos" on saintly people in what I follow.
I have actually read this in Mathew before. So we are destroyed in hell? Some Christians I have spoken to explain it this way, while others explain that we remain perpetually in hell. Also, the term "soul" in this case may be loosely used. It may be referring to the human personality. Perhaps in hell our capacity to understand God and thus seek salvation is destroyed. That is why we should not take what we have in this human form lightly. We should use our intelligence in understanding our spiritual position right away.
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;" (Matthew 25:41) KJV
Now, if there are no eternal living entities, then why is there a need for eternal fire? How about fire that lasts until the last wicked life is destroyed?
Its all good...
Bottomline, we must seek to be in God's service. No matter how we may understand things differently, we both agree that surrendering to God is the summum bonum of life. Keep doing what you do.
I'll check out the site a little later...
Perhaps that "breath of life" is supposed to be the entity. If there was no divinity in us then we would never be able to enter the spiritual world. We are constitutionally divine. It is just that our understanding has become like a dirty mirror. Once we clean that mirror we will be in our original position. Although both God and us are eternal, we are prone to fall, God never falls. Just in case you think I am attempting to equate us with God, this should be understood. I do not follow in the mayavadi philosophy. I follow that we are forever individuals, part and parcel of God. That is why it has been stressed (especially in the Bible) for us to understand our position in service to God. If our existence was only for a time, or if our individuality was false in which we would ultimately merge with God, then none of what has been taught would really matter.
I never said you said that. But, you mentioned the "three parts" of the person: body, soul and spirit. In which my point was that the body is *not* part of the person whatsoever. To think the body as self, or any part of self is false ego. You get in a car, you do not think, "I am the car". That is my point. Yes, the body is important. We must keep the body clean outside by washing, and clean inside through our devotional service to God.
Why wouldn't you think one needs to be eternal to enjoy never-ending paradise? That is like saying one doesn't need a tongue to enjoy the taste of candy.
If we aren't eternal then at some point in our "enjoying never-ending paradise" we will cease to exist. Everything in the spiritual world is eternal. God, being absolute, is non-different from His place of residence. And anything that enters into such a place must be, by constitution, of that same nature, eternal. Simply put, if we are not eternal then we have no place in heaven whatsoever. Just as sin cannot enter heaven, temporal forms cannot enter.
No, I wasn't saying that Paramatma was the individual soul. And yes, my comparison of Paramatma to your understanding of spirit was my thinking that this understanding of spirit was the same, or similar, to the Holy Spirit. Within you, upon you, why not? There are also "halos" on saintly people in what I follow.
I have actually read this in Mathew before. So we are destroyed in hell? Some Christians I have spoken to explain it this way, while others explain that we remain perpetually in hell. Also, the term "soul" in this case may be loosely used. It may be referring to the human personality. Perhaps in hell our capacity to understand God and thus seek salvation is destroyed. That is why we should not take what we have in this human form lightly. We should use our intelligence in understanding our spiritual position right away.
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;" (Matthew 25:41) KJV
Now, if there are no eternal living entities, then why is there a need for eternal fire? How about fire that lasts until the last wicked life is destroyed?
Its all good...
Bottomline, we must seek to be in God's service. No matter how we may understand things differently, we both agree that surrendering to God is the summum bonum of life. Keep doing what you do.
Maybe we will have a chance to redeem, maybe we won't. We cannot see where we are going in this material world. That is why this place is full of anxieties. One should not think, "I will wait until my next life to seek my eternal position", because one's next life might not be so great.
I suppose one could think of this place as hell. But I could imagine much worse. Actually, in the Vedas, it is explained that earth is of the middle planetary system. There are lower hellish planets as well as higher planets where demigods reside. My plea to everyone in this understanding is to not take the human life for granted. For all practicality, think of this life as your last hope. That if you do not seek to be in good with God now, that you will forever suffer fire and brimstone. People in this age have become very rebellious to this way of thought. I even was rebellious to it most of my passed life. More and more I am realizing the importance of why it is stressed. Nothing is gauranteed while under maya (the illusory material energy).
I suppose one could think of this place as hell. But I could imagine much worse. Actually, in the Vedas, it is explained that earth is of the middle planetary system. There are lower hellish planets as well as higher planets where demigods reside. My plea to everyone in this understanding is to not take the human life for granted. For all practicality, think of this life as your last hope. That if you do not seek to be in good with God now, that you will forever suffer fire and brimstone. People in this age have become very rebellious to this way of thought. I even was rebellious to it most of my passed life. More and more I am realizing the importance of why it is stressed. Nothing is gauranteed while under maya (the illusory material energy).
Is this after the Upanisads? You're right it does sound a lot like what Buddah Siddartha thought. Well as much as I know when you die you go to sleep and don't wake up until the ressurection. Then there will be a judgement. There are two deaths the first is physical the second is an eternal death. A destruction of the soul.
I see what you're saying. Very similar to what the bible says. But the thing is heaven isn't for men. Heaven is the home of God and angels. We're destined to live on earth after all evil is wiped away. That is our paradise.
No what I meant was I never mentioned body, soul, and spirit. All I said was that the Jews believe in a 3 part soul. None of the 3 parts are the body. You have different definitions and meanings usually spirti and soul though.
Depends who you talk to. But my understanding is yes. Once in hell you will suffer and when God destroys hell he will destroy those who inhabit it. The soul along with the ego are gone also. Since the one's who inhabit hell are dead both physically and will die the second and eternal death they won't be ressurected.
The eternal fire is for angels and the devil but that doesn't mean we can't still be cast into it. That's the whole hell and lake of fire concept found in revelations.
Agreed. As long as we live justly and understand that humans are here for a purpose we should be alright.
I see what you're saying. Very similar to what the bible says. But the thing is heaven isn't for men. Heaven is the home of God and angels. We're destined to live on earth after all evil is wiped away. That is our paradise.
No what I meant was I never mentioned body, soul, and spirit. All I said was that the Jews believe in a 3 part soul. None of the 3 parts are the body. You have different definitions and meanings usually spirti and soul though.
Depends who you talk to. But my understanding is yes. Once in hell you will suffer and when God destroys hell he will destroy those who inhabit it. The soul along with the ego are gone also. Since the one's who inhabit hell are dead both physically and will die the second and eternal death they won't be ressurected.
The eternal fire is for angels and the devil but that doesn't mean we can't still be cast into it. That's the whole hell and lake of fire concept found in revelations.
n9newunsixx5150 said:
Bottomline, we must seek to be in God's service. No matter how we may understand things differently, we both agree that surrendering to God is the summum bonum of life. Keep doing what you do.
The Upanisads are affiliated literatures to the Vedas. The Mayavadi philosophy was started by Sankaracarya. It is an impersonalist interpretation of the Sastra (Scripture).
The "dying and going to sleep until judgement day" thing I have to disagree with. We are judged in our thoughts and actions constantly. If we weren't being judged then we wouldn't be suffering the results of our actions right now. And we are judged upon departing these bodies. If we go to sleep after death of this current body, then where does this sleep take place? It does not happen in the body. The body is, at this point, vacant. I would say that judgement day, as explained in the Bible, is for those souls still residing in the material world. If a soul is eligible for salvation, God isn't going to wait until some special day to bring them into His company. This philosophy is abstract. God can't judge you now, so you'll have to wait. But yet, by God's perfect arrangement we are getting the proper reactions of our actions, now. And even while others are supposedly in a state of sleep, we, the living entities, are still receiving the result from judgement of our actions. So, why the inconsistency?
While evil is being wiped away, we will reside where? I have heard this before. Isn't it something like, we will be in heaven for 2,000 years, or something, and then we will go back to a paradise on earth? If heaven isn't for men, then men will not go. But rather, God's part and parcel souls will.
Also, once we are back on this earthly paradise, will we have a finite duration of life? It would make sense seeing that we would thus be in the material world. Unless this new earth is in the spiritual world, in that case, I can understand. On a spiritual level what is the difference in constitution between angels and living entities on earth?
Ok.
So, we die and sleep... And then let's say upon judgement day we go to hell. Then at what point does God destroy the place of destruction (hell)?
Then we should not lament for those who go to hell, nor should we worry about going ourselves. Since we will be completely destroyed, it really doesn't matter. Nonexistence has no cares, no worries, no anxieties.
Ok. But is the devil and his angels also destroyed when God destroys hell? If so, then what happened to the supposed eternality of these angels? How does someone really lose something that was not given, but was had by eternal constitution??
Also, I thought this hell was eternal, "eternal fire". Then how come you speak of God destroying it?
We are here, and we have a purpose. But I disagree that we are here *for* a purpose.
What would that purpose be?
The "dying and going to sleep until judgement day" thing I have to disagree with. We are judged in our thoughts and actions constantly. If we weren't being judged then we wouldn't be suffering the results of our actions right now. And we are judged upon departing these bodies. If we go to sleep after death of this current body, then where does this sleep take place? It does not happen in the body. The body is, at this point, vacant. I would say that judgement day, as explained in the Bible, is for those souls still residing in the material world. If a soul is eligible for salvation, God isn't going to wait until some special day to bring them into His company. This philosophy is abstract. God can't judge you now, so you'll have to wait. But yet, by God's perfect arrangement we are getting the proper reactions of our actions, now. And even while others are supposedly in a state of sleep, we, the living entities, are still receiving the result from judgement of our actions. So, why the inconsistency?
While evil is being wiped away, we will reside where? I have heard this before. Isn't it something like, we will be in heaven for 2,000 years, or something, and then we will go back to a paradise on earth? If heaven isn't for men, then men will not go. But rather, God's part and parcel souls will.
Also, once we are back on this earthly paradise, will we have a finite duration of life? It would make sense seeing that we would thus be in the material world. Unless this new earth is in the spiritual world, in that case, I can understand. On a spiritual level what is the difference in constitution between angels and living entities on earth?
Ok.
So, we die and sleep... And then let's say upon judgement day we go to hell. Then at what point does God destroy the place of destruction (hell)?
Then we should not lament for those who go to hell, nor should we worry about going ourselves. Since we will be completely destroyed, it really doesn't matter. Nonexistence has no cares, no worries, no anxieties.
Ok. But is the devil and his angels also destroyed when God destroys hell? If so, then what happened to the supposed eternality of these angels? How does someone really lose something that was not given, but was had by eternal constitution??
Also, I thought this hell was eternal, "eternal fire". Then how come you speak of God destroying it?
We are here, and we have a purpose. But I disagree that we are here *for* a purpose.
What would that purpose be?
There is a correct concept. Although, some may understand at different levels of that concept. But people cannot just concoct God. God is objective truth. I cannot concoct that the grass is pink, and be considered sane. The grass (if it is alive) is green.
I got into a conversation with a Wiccan before. She was explaining the nature of these various gods that one may or may not worship. As well, she was explaining the overall god and goddess concept. In her explanations she kept telling me that we can think up these deities in our heads and thus validate their existence. My question to her was whether or not these supposed deities were superior to us or that we were superior to them. because everything she said constituted that not only do we imagine these gods, but we also use them for our benefit. I finally got her to come to the conclusion that, under what she had explained, we were the actual "gods". She was then forced to revise her understanding to make these deities objectively known. At least then there would be no inconsistencies. Unfortunately, the whole wicca premise is based on concoction. So if she stays in this line of reasoning she may not remain wiccan for very long. On the other hand, she may just learn new ways of juggling words to ignore the *objective* facts.
I got into a conversation with a Wiccan before. She was explaining the nature of these various gods that one may or may not worship. As well, she was explaining the overall god and goddess concept. In her explanations she kept telling me that we can think up these deities in our heads and thus validate their existence. My question to her was whether or not these supposed deities were superior to us or that we were superior to them. because everything she said constituted that not only do we imagine these gods, but we also use them for our benefit. I finally got her to come to the conclusion that, under what she had explained, we were the actual "gods". She was then forced to revise her understanding to make these deities objectively known. At least then there would be no inconsistencies. Unfortunately, the whole wicca premise is based on concoction. So if she stays in this line of reasoning she may not remain wiccan for very long. On the other hand, she may just learn new ways of juggling words to ignore the *objective* facts.
Is this mayavadi philosophy hinduism, a different religion altogether, or just a departure of traditional himduism and more related to Buddhist thought?
God can judge us on earth and after the ressurection. The ressurection is just the ultimate Judgement.
We will be alive. Well some of us. There are 2 ressurections. Revelations chapter 20-22 I believe hold most of the story. Pretty short read. First Satan will be captured and Jesus will reing on earth for 1000 years. These thousand years will be prosperous and those ressurected at this time will be blessed. Then Satan will be let out and the final war will come. Men will always be on earth. That's the reason the earth was created. Men can go to heaven but it's not where were supposed to be.
God destroys hell after the last battle. Those who are sent to hell will be there. How long? I'm not sure. But I'm guessing for a while. As for Non-existance you're right it's no cares, no worries, no anxieties but I'd still rather strive to go to "Heaven."
The fire is eternal. The fire isn't destroyed hell is. Hell is a placed of punishment but a place of punishment doesn't serve a purpose since there will be no one to punish. The fire I believe is a manifestation of God. Also The angels and the devil are not eternal, they serve(d) God, why would an eternal being have to serve any one?
The purpose is to get back with God. Go back home. Learn our lesson.
God can judge us on earth and after the ressurection. The ressurection is just the ultimate Judgement.
We will be alive. Well some of us. There are 2 ressurections. Revelations chapter 20-22 I believe hold most of the story. Pretty short read. First Satan will be captured and Jesus will reing on earth for 1000 years. These thousand years will be prosperous and those ressurected at this time will be blessed. Then Satan will be let out and the final war will come. Men will always be on earth. That's the reason the earth was created. Men can go to heaven but it's not where were supposed to be.
God destroys hell after the last battle. Those who are sent to hell will be there. How long? I'm not sure. But I'm guessing for a while. As for Non-existance you're right it's no cares, no worries, no anxieties but I'd still rather strive to go to "Heaven."
The fire is eternal. The fire isn't destroyed hell is. Hell is a placed of punishment but a place of punishment doesn't serve a purpose since there will be no one to punish. The fire I believe is a manifestation of God. Also The angels and the devil are not eternal, they serve(d) God, why would an eternal being have to serve any one?
The purpose is to get back with God. Go back home. Learn our lesson.