Evolution v. Creation

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May 13, 2002
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#41
WHITE DEVIL said:
Killin in the name of...

The largest massacres ever by the government of its own people, in raw numbers and in terms of per capita percentages, came from "atheistic, communist" governments.

(With the exception of the Turkish massacre of Armenians)

One could say without Communism, or those pretending to practice it, we could have avoided anywhere from 110 to 200 million deaths worldwide.

"But Mao and Stalin didn't practice True Communism".

Hitler didn't practice true Christianity (He was actually into the occult)
The Crusaders didn't practice true Christianity.
Al-Qaeda/Osama do not practice True Islam.
Break down the number please...

Even if that is so, is that anything compared to religion? Lets not forget, religious wars go back thousands of years.

Also White Devil, keep in mind

You have to remember that atheism is simply a lack of a belief. It doesn't tell people to do anything. You're not going to see an atheist say, "I did this because I'm an athiest", unlike religions where they are told to do something or motivate to act in a certain way. You can't point to an atheist bible and say "look, right there under 2-0-Sixx 5:9, 'jews are bad'" or "it says here in
2 Darwin 18:6 that we must smite our enemies with comfy chairs and thus triumph over the infidels".
Atheism is a lack of belief, that is all. Religions have very specific teaching that say "this is bad and this is wrong".
 
Dec 25, 2003
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#42
My bad...200 million includes Facist and repressive dictatorships of all types including the Nazis.

Here are Estimates from a political thinktank in Poland on just "communist"

China: 65 million deaths
Soveit Union: 23 million
Cambodia: 2 million
North Korea: 1.2 million
Africa: 1.7 million
Afghanistan: 1.5 million
Vietnam: 1 million
Eastern Europe: 1 million
Latin America: 150,000

97.35 million
 
Feb 9, 2003
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#43
Fistacuffs said:
Darwinisim= Survival of the fittest. According to Nazi doctrine, Jews were less-fit and therefore subhuman and worthy of extermination. The whole concept of Darwinism and Eugeneics didn't cause the Holocaust, but gave the perpetrators the scientific justification that they needed to commit their crimes. And, according to Darwinism, they were, indeed, justified in what they were doing.
Yes I also believe Darwinism caused many deaths and conflicts, at least in principle. I don't see why people get mad if the Stronger kills the weaker. By all means shouldn't a real Darwinist promote the war in Iraq? I mean they are the weaker and less adapt country and military strength proves it.

P.S Can anyone give me how many people have died in the name of religion? If so can you tell me how many have died for Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. etc. I don't people have died I'm just curious as to the actual numbers.
 
Dec 25, 2003
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#44
I know people who base their entire lives around Christianity. These "true" Christians would never kill anyone. They have an incredible motivation to be positive forces in society. Would communism supply this? One can only hypothesize...

As a matter of fact, where would these people be without religion?

I think religion allows the stupids in the world to have something to live for, so they don't wake up in the morning and realize theyre small, stupid, and pitiful, and kill people.
 
Dec 25, 2003
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#45
Observes the Washington Post's Stephen Rosenfeld, "What is missing from the discussion is an evaluation of the substance of the political views many of the movie people had." Those blacklisted were supporting a monstrous tyranny, one that oppressed, slaughtered and enslaved entire populations. The refusal to hire them is as unsurprising as, say, the refusal to hire professing Nazis. The real victims were the 100 million-plus people gunned down by despots wallowing in plaudits from pampered left-wing intellectuals in the West.

The 20th century, filled with so much horror, is mercifully coming to a close. While we may choose to forgive those who supported murderous totalitarians, we should never forget. However charming, talented or cute communist apologists may now appear to be, they remain drenched with blood.
 
May 13, 2002
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#46
WHITE DEVIL said:
My bad...200 million includes Facist and repressive dictatorships of all types including the Nazis.

Here are Estimates from a political thinktank in Poland on just "communist"

China: 65 million deaths - Explain how it has to do with atheims, please.
Soveit Union: 23 million - Where does this number come from? Most of it's from WWII, I assume, but you tell me.
Cambodia: 2 million - NOTHING to do with atheism.
North Korea: 1.2 million - NOTHING to do with atheism.
Africa: 1.7 million - How is this atheist related?
Afghanistan: 1.5 million - How is this atheist related? If your talking about USSR/afgan war, the majority of leaders in USSR were theists.
Vietnam: 1 million - NOTHING to do with atheism.
Eastern Europe: 1 million - How is this atheist related?
Latin America: 150,000 - How is this atheist related?

97.35 million - Don't think so, comrade

***EDIT***
I just noticed you said the numbers were "communist" related. LOL. So how can you blame that on atheism???
 
May 13, 2002
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#47
WHITE DEVIL said:
I know people who base their entire lives around Christianity. These "true" Christians would never kill anyone. They have an incredible motivation to be positive forces in society. Would communism supply this? One can only hypothesize...

As a matter of fact, where would these people be without religion?

I think religion allows the stupids in the world to have something to live for, so they don't wake up in the morning and realize theyre small, stupid, and pitiful, and kill people.
I agree 100%

I have said a number of times that religion is good for drug users, homeless, people down on their luck etc. and of course it's good for dumb people too.

However, religion promotes ignorance which I believe is horrible for mankind. If we want our kind to advance as quickly as possible, ignorance slows down or stops this process. If you want society to stay where it is and not advance, then I cannot argue with you.
 
May 13, 2002
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#48
WHITE DEVIL said:
The 20th century, filled with so much horror, is mercifully coming to a close. While we may choose to forgive those who supported murderous totalitarians, we should never forget. However charming, talented or cute communist apologists may now appear to be, they remain drenched with blood.
I don't know how this thread is turning into a communist topic, but Capitalism has it's own bloody hands, comrade. MORE people have died because of capitalism, lets not forget that. But it doesn't matter, because neither communism or capitalism say "KILL" or "torture".
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#49
WHITE DEVIL said:
I know people who base their entire lives around Christianity. These "true" Christians would never kill anyone. They have an incredible motivation to be positive forces in society. Would communism supply this? One can only hypothesize...

As a matter of fact, where would these people be without religion?

I think religion allows the stupids in the world to have something to live for, so they don't wake up in the morning and realize theyre small, stupid, and pitiful, and kill people.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to a moral foundation by which we raise our children upon. Without religion people would just be sneaky about what they do to stay out of the system that governs this country. People like Bush Jr. who claim Christianity, who are responsible for thousands of deaths are not acting in accordance with the will of God, rather their (government) own benefit and satisfaction. If one claims to be a Christian but kills at will with no shame, then he is not a true Christian because it conflicts with everything the Bible stands for. Without religion, we will rely only on the law of the land to keep people sane and at peace.

]Since you brought this up, I might as well ask this question to you. You have named the reasons you oppose religion, and they are understandable, but I believe that without religion we would have chaos. Without the ten commandments, without the bible, without the notion that we must do right in order to get into heaven, what is going to keep humanity at peace? This ignorance that you are against, is the very thing that is preventing these Christians from becoming killers (were talking about your average church-goer, not Bush). Religion is a moral basis by which we raise our kids to do right by. Without this foundation, our children will have to rely on our own message on how to be humane in society. This is not possible in an age where your peers have more influence on one another then God, parents, or teachers.

Do I believe that this world would have been better off if religion was *never* created? Possibly.

Do I believe that we would be better off without religion right now? Absolutely not. If I was shown irrefutable evidence that proved God was not real, and the bible was fake, I would keep it to myself, and let religion be an influence in the human mind. In the grand scheme of things, without "thou shalt not kill", "thou shall not steal", the behavior one must posess to get into heaven, without all of these things, Iraq would look like paradise. I don't understand how you see a better place in this world without this moral foundation. Do you think the LAW is enough to maintain order in this country minus religion?
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#54
2-0-Sixx said:
This thread got completey fucked. Nitro, I did reply to you a couple pages ago.
I'm going to get to those. Hopefully before I move because I will be without the internet for a little bit while we settle into our new house.
 
May 13, 2002
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#55
WHITE DEVIL said:
Oh ok

Communism = Atheism. Communist dictated that the government be atheist.
So what? Atheism does not equal communism. Karl Marx specifically spoke about freedom of religion. When USSR declared itself atheist, the majority of the people were still theist. Stalin took many rights away, but again, Stalin did many things that went against Marx.

Perhaps Karl Marx's best known quotation is his description of religion as "the opiate of the masses." This quote is often misrepresented by those ideologically opposed to Marx as though Marx were advocating immediate and total obliteration of all religions. On the contrary, Marx viewed religion as the sole solace, often, of the oppressed proletarian classes. He would not have dreamed of tearing this away, their only consolation in life. Lutheranism was the prescribed Prussian state religion, and career advancement for non-Lutherans and especially Jews was difficult to impossible. But for Marx, religion in general was merely a symptom of a much larger issue -- the fundamentally predatorial economic relationship between the bourgeois class and the proletariat -- rather than religion being a fundamental problem in itself. As Napoleon put it, "Religion is great stuff for keeping the poor from murdering the rich."
 
May 13, 2002
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#57
Read this White Devil,

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions. - Karl Marx


One of the reasons that the quote is probably so often misunderstood is that the full passage is often not quoted - the boldface in the above is my own, showing what is usually quoted. The italics are in the original.

As we can read, religion is meant to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them that this is OK because they will find that true happiness in the next life. But it should be noted that Marx is not entirely without sympathy: people are in distress and religion does provide solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs. The quote is not, then, quite as negative as most people would portray.

In some ways, the quote is portrayed a bit dishonestly because saying "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature..." deliberately leaves out the additonal statement that it is also the "heart of a heartless world." It is a critique of society that it has become heartless, and a partial validation of religion that it tries to become its heart.

For Marx, the problem lies in the obvious fact that an opiate drug fails to fix a physical injury - it merely helps you forget your pain and suffering. This may be fine up to a point, but only as long as you are also actively trying to solve the underlying problems causing the pain in the first place. Similarly, religion also does not fix the underlying causes of people's pain and suffering - instead, it helps them forget why they are suffering and get them to look forward to an imaginary future when the pain will cease instead of working to change circumstances now.

Even worse, this "drug" of religion is being administered by the same oppressors who are ultimately responsible for the pain and suffering in the first place. Religion is an expression of more fundamental unhappiness and symptom of more fundamental and oppressive economic realities. Hopefully, though, humans would create a society in which the economic conditions causing so much pain and suffering would be eradicated and, therefore, the need for soothing drugs like religion would cease. Of course for Marx, such a turn of events isn't simply to be "hoped for" - in his view, human history was leading inevitably towards it.
 
May 13, 2002
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#59
WHITE DEVIL said:
Interesting...but you could you clarify if you believe Marx did not support the abolition of religion or that he did.

This article seems to waver between the two.
Well, Marx was against religion, but he definately believed people had the right to have religion and he definately believed it was a positive for the people. He believed religion was only a reflex of the real world. Or it is "a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself."

He believed that under a communism, slowly after time, there would not be a need for religion anymore. It would disapear or become the minority of the people on its own.