Droppin Nukes on Japan in WWII

[DubbC415]

one thing i'll agree with 206, for once, is that the two bombings were completely different. while i am not condoning pearl harbor in any way, u have to think about it: it was highly successful in the fact that they didnt catch the controversial backlash of bombing a big city...they made a militaristic-based move. it was unsuccessful, however, in that, while call it cliched, they awoke a huge fucking sleeping giant. what can they expect from (another cliche) the most powerful country in the world? our pompous attitudes are what pushed us to do it. it was the beginning of the american tradition of having to HAVE some justification for doing a completely outlandish (understatement of the century) move against another country. i cant remember hte name, cuz its 1 in the morning...but lets not forget that the US bombed the FUCK out of (begins with a D) a city in Germany, that had no strategic or military bases there...there was no reason to bomb that city, we did it because we were pissed at the Germans. and we did it at night too, so they wouldnt figure out it was us. 40,000 civilian lives. anyways, the point is, while being a somewhat conservative Democrat who holds patriotism for his country, it's hard for me to give a full feeling on the A-bomb fiasco. it was wrong, and we can talk all day about what else could have happened, and NO COUNTRY should go through that torment, because we know if any other country did it to us, Dubya would personally track the leader of that country down, but, for the most part, it brought an end to the war. and how ironic that end was.

also, they knew very well of its power. they tested it several times, and we watched footage of it in my AP us history class. they tested it in Arizona, and the footage is just unfuckingbelievable. sorry-ass troops just standing behind walls with glasses watching houses get demolished in seconds, and later on having severe cancer because of it. they actually also tested it in the Asian Pacific islands as well. it threw 1,000,000 pounds of water into the air in less than 1 SECOND. fisherman 45 miles away had their boats knocked over by the explosion. also, one of the "Creators" of the bomb, Einstein himself, strongly opposed the use of it after helping make it, knowing very well of what it would do.

 

[m.w.merlino]

It was going to be dropped somewhere -- i feel complete compassion for all those in japan who suffered

but we had to use them to fully understand why never to use them -- its an ugly thing

 

[mExIcaNox4]

Japanese were crayzie if they had the chance to wipe Millions of Americas they would have done it too...shit thats why the scientist that were devloping the Atomic bomb Fled Germany and Hitler cuz we know Hitler would have used it the min. he got his hands on it...the Japanese didn't wanna surrrender even after one Bomb

shit they were making young pilots kill them themselves by flying into Navy Fleets

 

[Ethereal]

Umm, Nitro. Can you tell me how many civilians died in Pearl Harbor? Now, can you tell me how many civilians died in Japan? Are American lives worth more the Japanese lives? Did Japan attack a military base for strategic reasons or did they attack a city for maximum casualties?

How many of those that died in Pearl Harbor were engaged in battle with Japan? They were attacked without prior notice or cause, they are all civilian casualties in my eyes. Japan attacked military bases for strategic reasons, just as the United States attacked Hiroshima in order to destroy it's industrialized and military based regions. You wine and cry about civilians deaths but neglect to realize the intense pressure and anxiety the U.S. government faced as a war took place across the world with one man effectivley trying to take over the world (who has already reached a civilian death count far surpassing the millions), allying with another to take over your land. Are you telling me they should have waited for Germany or Japan to fly over our home land and start bombing civilians? Can you honestly say that neither country with their leaders showed enough insanity to do such a thing?

2-0-SIXX DID YOU KNOW THAT THE RAID AND BOMBINGS OVER TOKYO BEFORE THE NUKES WERE DROPPED CAUSED MORE DAMAGE AND DEATHS THEN EITHER OF THE ATOMIC BOMBS?

Has it crossed your mind that if we had not used the bombs, many more Japanese civilians would have perished under U.S. arial bombings? Do these things ever cross your mind? If we didn't drop those nukes:

1. WE WOULD HAVE CONTINUED OUR RAIDS DROPPING BOMBS OVER CITY AFTER CITY MAKING THE A-BOMB LOOK PLEASANT.

2. JAPAN WOULD HAVE LIKELY STARTED AN INVASION OVER THE CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES SLAMMING BOMBS INTO CALIFORNIA KILLING AMERICA CIVILIANS.

3. THE WAR WOULD NOT HAVE ENDED, AND THE OUTCOME MIGHT HAVE BEEN MUCH DIFFERENT AND MORE DISASTROUS.

MAYBE JAPAN WOULD BE PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES.
CAN ANYONE GUESS WHAT WE WOULD HAVE NAMED OUR NEW STATES?

This also opened the eyes of every country around the world. If the bomb had not been dropped in 1945 it would have been dropped at a later time. It set the standards for guerilla war and what could be if things get out of hand.

This is not my opinion, if we did not drop those bombs; if we did not kill those 100,000 plus civilians in the process; hundreds of thousands of Japanese and America civilians would have died. This may be acceptable by you, but it is not by me.

Nitro, there is a HUGE difference between Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima/Nagasaki and you know it. Don’t try to compare the two. Japanese attacked warships that were manned by American sailors; it did not target civilians. Out of the 2,000 or so that died in Pearl Harbor, how many were civilian? Out of the 200,000+ in Japan, how many were civilian?

Not sure on the actual non-military personal that died in Pearl Harbor (wasn't very many), but the deaths in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were 95% civilians. The point I am trying to make is not that the two attacks were similar in damage or effectiveness, but that we didn't ask for any of this to happen in the first place. We didn't want any of this to go on, yet Japan persisted not only after we warned them of the bomb we had, but even after we dropped the first one. Japan did absolutely nothing to us that compares to the damage we did to their country, but what it all boils down to is the cause of the war. We didn't invade Japan, Japan invaded us.

The goal for this raid had not been a military installation but rather an entire city. The atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima killed civilian women and children in addition to soldiers. Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years and who knows after that.

Thats true, but we were not after civilian casualties like you think. I'm not saying they tried to avoid them by any means neccessary, they knew wherever they dropped the bombs it would cause mass civilian deaths, but their greater concern was to destroy the economy of Japan, and target military bases. There were much larger and more dense cities in Japan where the U.S. could have doubled the casualty rate.

Do you even know why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected as the towns to destroy? Simply because they had been untouched during the war. The Target Committee wanted the first bomb to be "sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it was released."

I'm not completely sure about Nagasaki, but the claim you made came third to Japan's industry and military bases as far a Hiroshima. From what I understand, Nagasaki was not even selected, it was a second option because the first was an unclear and unsafe target. There were 4 selections, and there were 4 bombs to be dropped, but after the damage was seen of the first two, Japan surendered and we retreated.

Many people were against dropping bombs on Japan. The Navy and many others proposed that its ongoing blockade of Japan would eventually force them to surrender. No bloodshed required.

I have actually read some of the protests to the bomb before they were dropped, and there were plenty. As for the blockade, it was believed that it would not have brought Japan to a surrender, rather weaken their forces just as our arial bombings would.

I also want to point out that what America did was illegal, not that Nitro ever gave a shit about that.

And what Japan did was legal?! Please explain this. Of course 2-0-Sixx doen't give a shit about that. Japan already broke all the rules, so it is open season. It's just like the death penalty, you can not kill, unless you kill first, then you can be killed.

Oh, a little history lesson for you Nitro...

Hawaii became a state in 1959.

Thats nice. Hardley a lesson, though.

 

[Ethereal]

Aside from the lunacy of comparing both attacks simply because there is no comparison, the Japanese did not attack civilian cities....

You cannot use the excuse that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor with out warning.
"We" knew they were going to attack ahead of time.
The same people who decided to drop 2 hydrogen bombs on thousands of innocent women and children also decided to sacrifice hundreds of their own "boys" (AKA pawns) stationed in Pearl Harbor.

These are the actions of pure "evil"....

First off I wasn't comparing these attacks on a damaging scale. Are we only allowed to use the same force as our enemies do upon us, and never surpass them in effort to defeat them? Japan brought it upon their own country. If you are going to point the finger, point it towards the government that proposed to attack the United States, and those who carried out the orders.

The same morality can be found in those who attacked us (Japan); pure evil. You can not fight evil with grace.

If Japan would have never attacked the U.S., no Japanese civilians would have died, none of them. If Japan would have surrendered when we sent them the first ultimatum, hundreds of thousands of civilians would have been saved. If Japan would have surrendered after we dropped the first bomb, hundreds of thousands of civilians would have been saved.

But lets place all of the focus on the United States, because they started the war didn't they. They did, didn't they? Wait..

Ok name one country who has used nukes on another country and is now paranoid tryin to police the creation of nukes by other countries all over the world?

I'm talking about countries who have skeletons and those who act (or have acted) in a horrible nature.

shit they were making young pilots kill them themselves by flying into Navy Fleets

That alone shows the nerve of Japan and the great lengths they were willing to go to in order to defeat us. You have to fight this type of enemy with whatever you have.

 

[-TiM C-]

thats the dumbest shit ive heard , truman could of negociated with them ,at the end of the war that was japans main reason for staying in the war so the USA would negociate with them the mentality of the japaneese was not to surrender , if the US government said okay we wanna stop fighting lets talk, the war would of ended.

Not really, if we hadn't dropped the bombs there would have been the bloodiest battle EVER. Period. BUT- we intercepted Japanese messages that said they woudln't surrender as long as we were calling for an unconditional surrender..... but in reality the only thing that was holding them back from surrendering was that they wanted to keep their emporer.... so if we would have said, ok you can keep your emporer, im sure they woulda surrendered. it was as simple as that, but we still decided to go on with the bombing.

I believe that our motive for bombing them was totallllly unrelated to ending the war... i think we could have surrounded their island, continued the embargoes, and starved them out. Japan is a country with very little natural resources, so it would be hard for them to survive on their own for very long. When Truman revealed to Stalin that we had the bomb, Stalin was very unmoved by it. He already had a spy that was working for the US Nuclear team, and he knew we had it before we revealed it to him. Since that was his reaction, i believe that Truman dropped the bomb to kinda flex his muscles at Stalin..... i think he knew Stalin was a problem and was fighting the Cold War before WW2 even ended.

Another thing to think about - Hiroshima DID NOT end the war. Japan did not surrender after Hiroshima. They surrendered after the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki...


Also, lets look at the numbers:

Pearl Harbor: roughly 2500 civilians killed
Japan: well over 250,000 to date.....(thats a guess, if anyone has the real number feel free to post it out there)

 

[TONY206]

Seems to me the biggest bitch move in history was either when Japan invaded Pearl Harbor or when those Saudi's slammed planes into the WTC towers.

I feel you on what you said, especially this.

 

[MEXCOM]

The US wanted to get into this war! There's no doubt about it, Pear Harbor was just the excuse they needed. Also like middigy said, and may i note I don't see anyone refuting his claim, the US KNEW that they were going to be attacked. Infact they wanted Japan to attack. Also the US didnt care about lives being lost, they were prepared to fight Japan with everything they had, the real reason they used the bomb was because if Russia/USSR helped in the invasion of Japan, then Japan would also have been split much like Post war-Germany. Thats what they were trying to avoid.

 

[.Nicoya510::]

Why Was Japan Helping Germany Anyways? Did Japanese People Have Something Against Jews? And Didnt Hitler Hate Anything But WHite People? So Why where the Japanses on His Side?

 

[The Duke of Earl]

Why Was Japan Helping Germany Anyways? Did Japanese People Have Something Against Jews? And Didnt Hitler Hate Anything But WHite People? So Why where the Japanses on His Side?

the japanese wanted america to fight a two front war , and the germans were angry that the united states were shipping supplies to england n its allies , plus america got into it with the germans bacause they were gettin pissed that german u-boats were blowing up those supplie ships


plus the japanese we gettin into with russia , the japanese also pressured hitler to delcare war on america for that reason of making the united states fight a two front war........

 

[miggidy]

First off I wasn't comparing these attacks on a damaging scale. Are we only allowed to use the same force as our enemies do upon us, and never surpass them in effort to defeat them? Japan brought it upon their own country. If you are going to point the finger, point it towards the government that proposed to attack the United States, and those who carried out the orders.

No no no.... If some punk ass coward sucker punches me, I'm going to retaliate by punching him back with a 4 punch combination. I might crush his face in my knee and depending on how pissed I am, I might stump on his face.
But I'll never set his whole neighborhood in flames, killing everyone around him just to kill him....

You mentioned that the Japanese government brought it upon themselves, that's very true.
But why did "Amerikkka" attack their civilians????

The same morality can be found in those who attacked us (Japan); pure evil. You can not fight evil with grace.

If Japan would have never attacked the U.S., no Japanese civilians would have died, none of them. If Japan would have surrendered when we sent them the first ultimatum, hundreds of thousands of civilians would have been saved. If Japan would have surrendered after we dropped the first bomb, hundreds of thousands of civilians would have been saved.

Yes maybe the Japanese were evil as well, but it could've also been ignorance. We will never know, but what we do know is that what Amerikkka did was and is pure evil....

LOL! Japan surrendering? Amerikkka pulled a "Pontius Pilate", a fuckin stupid excuse for bombing them.
Bush did the same with the Taliban, "Surrender or die", same with Saddam....
LMAO!!!! Do you think the US government along with Bush would surrender if another country threatenned them?
Hell fuckin no! So what makes you think the Japanese were going to surrender with out a fight????

But lets place all of the focus on the United States, because they started the war didn't they. They did, didn't they? Wait..

What war???? This was no war....
The focus is on the United States because they pulled the biggest evil bitch move of all time. (As far as military strikes are concerened)
If you don't think it's the biggest bitch move them give me your opinion. There's nothing in history that can even come close to this....

 

[Ethereal]

No no no.... If some punk ass coward sucker punches me, I'm going to retaliate by punching him back with a 4 punch combination. I might crush his face in my knee and depending on how pissed I am, I might stump on his face.
But I'll never set his whole neighborhood in flames, killing everyone around him just to kill him....

But what if this "him" was comprised of more than just one person. And what if these people are responsible for killing those who you are supposed to protect, maybe your family? What if they were relentless, posessing the ability to kill themselves just to kill you or one of your loved ones. What if they showed no mercy and no sign of surrender under any circumstances. Are you going to let them kill off your own one by one? Either way your responsible for civilian deaths, whether that be your own, or your enemies. It is to hard to simulate this scenario out with one man punching you, compared to a hoard of planes bombing a country.

You mentioned that the Japanese government brought it upon themselves, that's very true.
But why did "Amerikkka" attack their civilians????

I can not tell you I agree with the killing of civilians. But what were we supposed to do, do you think Japan wouldn't have sent planes over California and started bombing civilians if we handeled it routinley? I have heard stories of Japanese armies walking off cliffs before they surrendered to America. I don't think there is anything they would not have done.

LOL! Japan surrendering? Amerikkka pulled a "Pontius Pilate", a fuckin stupid excuse for bombing them.
Bush did the same with the Taliban, "Surrender or die", same with Saddam....
LMAO!!!! Do you think the US government along with Bush would surrender if another country threatenned them?
Hell fuckin no! So what makes you think the Japanese were going to surrender with out a fight????

There is one difference here. We took the offensive first against Saddam, so asking them to surrender would sound dumb. Japan however, invaded us, so we raided Tokyo and caused mass destruction, then told them to surrender before we dropped the a-bomb. A lot of the things in this war sound dumb miggidy, and it's easy for us to say that when it's all over and we read about it in our history books. It is easy for us to find where America flawed, or how we could have done this to save lives, or did that to save money, but who the fuck are we?

What we did to Japanese civilians was horrible wrong, I can not begin to detail the horror of it. But I don't care how you look at it, or from what angle you do, one thing stands true, and that is, through all of these atrocius acts the United States committed in this war, they saved everyone. Simply put, they saved the world. People can laugh their anti-american ass off at the comment, but its so fucking true and deep down inside, everyone knows it. Can you honestly sit there and say we didn't? If we never entered Germany or fought off Japan, who the fuck do you think would have? Look at what Hitler was doing to those countries around him, he was beating them down like they were punks. I don't care how many of what articles are pulled out of where, I believe the United States, by what they did in WWII saved FAR more lives then it destroyed. They saved country after country. Because of this; I won't agree with the deaths the a-bomb cost, but I will rest assured that many more lives were saved. There is no way to say whether it was truely right or wrong, so I just void it and let God deal with them accordingly.

There is no justification for killing civilians, not even to save civilians. Knowing this it is pointless to argue any further about it. Your going to believe that we could have solved it in a better manner, I'm telling you that many more civilians would have died in the process. If I were the president, I would not have ordered the bomb, no way in hell.

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Japan invaded us because they were following our example.

 

[nefar559]

US placed an embargo on Japan, knowing fully well japan would relatilate.

the oil embargo threaten japan very existance, and example on how this affects countries, in the 1970 serveral arab nations placed an embargo on the US, just a few months ago reports showed how close the US was ready to use millitary force to sieze oil fields in the middle east.

 

[-TiM C-]

"so we raided Tokyo and caused mass destruction, then told them to surrender before we dropped the a-bomb. "


Not really, we never really told them what kind of bomb we had, only that it would cause "utter destruction and damage" (or something along those lines)..... they probably WOULD have surrendered had they seen the footage from the testing of the first bomb.....

thats like if some1 is fucking with you and you say stop or i'll kill you.... they arent gonna take you seriously unless you pull out the gun and put it in their face.

 

[Snubnoze]

There is no honor in killing **civilians** of the enemy in order to save your **troops**. NONE. If you can't realise that your a fucking idiot. Enough with the excuses and recycled propaganda you fucking pawns. Now I remember why I hardly post here anymore...

 

[Ethereal]

Not really, we never really told them what kind of bomb we had, only that it would cause "utter destruction and damage" (or something along those lines)..... they probably WOULD have surrendered had they seen the footage from the testing of the first bomb.....

Can't argue with that! Thats what America should have done; thats what I would have done.

There is no honor in killing **civilians** of the enemy in order to save your **troops**. NONE. If you can't realise that your a fucking idiot. Enough with the excuses and recycled propaganda you fucking pawns. Now I remember why I hardly post here anymore...

So the axis' killed 10,000,000 Jewish troops?
I see why you don't post here as well.

 

[Snubnoze]

So the axis' killed 10,000,000 Jewish troops?
I see why you don't post here as well.

nice stradegy mutant. If you hadn't noticed, I said NOTHING that defended the Axis. I wasn't even TALKING ABOUT the axis, I was talking about JAPANSES CIVILIANS and the UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. Aight, I'll play your game. Your saying its justified for us to kill civilians, because the axis killed civilians. So basically your saying we are on the same level as hitler. Congratulations fuck boy on a superb reply...

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Nitro,

How many of those that died in Pearl Harbor were engaged in battle with Japan? They were attacked without prior notice or cause, they are all civilian casualties in my eyes.

You must be blinded from being drunken with patriotism if you honestly believe that men who were in the MILITARY were civilians. Come on Nitro, you can do better then that.

Japan attacked military bases for strategic reasons, just as the United States attacked Hiroshima in order to destroy it's industrialized and military based regions.

Once again Nitro, you cannot compare attacking a military base in order to destabilize your enemies’ military with dropping nukes on civilian cities. There is NO comparison.

You wine and cry about civilians deaths but neglect to realize the intense pressure and anxiety the U.S. government faced as a war took place across the world with one man effectivley trying to take over the world (who has already reached a civilian death count far surpassing the millions), allying with another to take over your land.

Why didn’t the U.S get involved in the war prior to Pearl Harbor? Can you answer that smart guy? If there was such an evil man and the U.S didn’t want Hitler to “take over the world”, then why did they wait so long before joining the war? If Japan never attacked Pearl Harbor and they invaded Russia from the East, as Hitler wanted them to, you would probably be defending Fascism right now.

Are you telling me they should have waited for Germany or Japan to fly over our home land and start bombing civilians? Can you honestly say that neither country with their leaders showed enough insanity to do such a thing?

First off, Germany was not capable of doing such things. They had their hands tied with Russia and the rest of Europe. Second, we are not debating when or whether or not America should have joined the war. We are debating Hiroshima/Nagasaki and if it was right or wrong to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

2-0-SIXX DID YOU KNOW THAT THE RAID AND BOMBINGS OVER TOKYO BEFORE THE NUKES WERE DROPPED CAUSED MORE DAMAGE AND DEATHS THEN EITHER OF THE ATOMIC BOMBS?

NITRO YES I WAS WELL AWARE OF THE PREVIOUS BOMBINGS AND THE HUGE AMOUNT OF CASUALTIES.

Has it crossed your mind that if we had not used the bombs, many more Japanese civilians would have perished under U.S. arial bombings? Do these things ever cross your mind? If we didn't drop those nukes:

Has it ever crossed your mind that there are other methods available for ending wars? Germany was finished. Japan was finished. There was nothing left. Japan did not have the resources for any more attacks. The only thing they had left was troops available for defending an all out invasion. Yes. Many would have died. But an invasion was unnecessary just as dropping nukes was unnecessary.

Nitro- this reminds me of the Vietnam thread. Do you remember Cambodia and Loas? Civilian cities were bombed for years. Over a million innocent people who had nothing to do with the war were killed. Some how you defended that shit too. Hiroshima/Nagasaki…same shit. Innocent people who had absolutely nothing to with a war were murdered, and again, you’re defending it. I see your mentality. You’re not much different then Mcleanhatch.

2. JAPAN WOULD HAVE LIKELY STARTED AN INVASION OVER THE CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES SLAMMING BOMBS INTO CALIFORNIA KILLING AMERICA CIVILIANS.

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE! This statement shows that you have VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE of WWII.

This also opened the eyes of every country around the world. If the bomb had not been dropped in 1945 it would have been dropped at a later time. It set the standards for guerilla war and what could be if things get out of hand.

The moment the bomb dropped the secret was out and it wasn’t hard for scientists all over the world to understand the physics of the bomb and start working on their own.

This is not my opinion, if we did not drop those bombs; if we did not kill those 100,000 plus civilians in the process; hundreds of thousands of Japanese and America civilians would have died. This may be acceptable by you, but it is not by me.

Obviously it is YOUR opinion or else others and myself wouldn’t disagree with you, now would we? As much as you may want to make that statement a fact, you cannot.

” Not sure on the actual non-military personal that died in Pearl Harbor (wasn't very many), but the deaths in Nagasaki and Hiroshima were 95% civilians.”

The point I am trying to make is not that the two attacks were similar in damage or effectiveness, but that we didn't ask for any of this to happen in the first place.

Neither did the people living in those cities. Just because America didn’t start the war, doesn’t mean it’s ok to drop nukes on civilian cities.

Thats true, but we were not after civilian casualties like you think.

Oh come Nitro! They were specifically looking for massive a civilian deaths, that’s why the cities were selected.

I have actually read some of the protests to the bomb before they were dropped, and there were plenty. As for the blockade, it was believed that it would not have brought Japan to a surrender, rather weaken their forces just as our arial bombings would.

Japan had nothing left. Their allies were finished. Economically, they were finished.

Nitro, you should also listen to Miggidy. He touched briefly about prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor. This is a relatively knew idea, but true. You can dig up some old threads about this topic.

” There is no honor in killing **civilians** of the enemy in order to save your **troops**. NONE. If you can't realize that your a fucking idiot. Enough with the excuses and recycled propaganda you fucking pawns.”

Nitro, why did you say, “So the axis' killed 10,000,000 Jewish troops?” Where did this number come from and what does it have to do with Japan?

 

[Ethereal]

nice stradegy mutant. If you hadn't noticed, I said NOTHING that defended the Axis. I wasn't even TALKING ABOUT the axis, I was talking about JAPANSES CIVILIANS and the UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. Aight, I'll play your game. Your saying its justified for us to kill civilians, because the axis killed civilians. So basically your saying we are on the same level as hitler. Congratulations fuck boy on a superb reply...

I never said the United States killing Japanese civilians was justified by what the axis did. I am saying that in light of what the axis' were doing to the world, we had to protect our nation by any means neccessary. So you managed to argue a false reply, that I never made. Congratulations you fucking retard.