do black people ever feel bad about the social order they've created in Sicily?

[Dhadnot]

Lol, Prosecution, judge and jury.But I'm interested in Heresy's take.

 

[HERESY]

OK, I have had time to read and sit back so now I’m responding. What I see here are two people who’re passionate about their beliefs and two people who feel that no matter what, people should be treated equally. This is a good thing because at the end of the day the two of you were able to walk away with a better understanding of each other’s position and values.

I, however, attribute your differences to your definitions and/or interpretations of responsibilty and what it means to be responsible. Contrary to what some believe and promote, feeling responsible does not always imply feelings of guilt, wrongdoing or placing blame with one particular group. In many instances, responsibility is stepping up to the plate when no one else will or acknowledging that what happened was wrong (and possibly taking steps to correct the problem.)

I agree with both of you to a certain extent. Whites should not feel responsible solely because they are white. However, whites should acknowledge responsibility, as they (as an overall group) have promoted Eurocentric values and have reaped the majority of benefits from promoting such values. Moreover, I don’t see a double standard because I also have to look at the historical context, the fact many tribes no longer exist today and live in a world were “the system” is designed to benefit whites first, not people of color.

The lack of responsibility does not make whites evil nor does the lack of responsibility make people of color lazy. What we need to look at is our responsibility as HUMANS and our responsibility to our fellow man regardless of how he or she may look, talk, walk, etc. When faced with tribalism, ethnocentrism and just about every other “ism” it is hard to strip away what you first see or encounter and look deeper, but when you look deeper, at the core, you’ll find this is a problem with humanity. And when I say a problem with humanity, I don’t mean a problem as in all people have been subjected to hardships by this group or that group. What I mean by that is our IRRESPONSIBILITY. We, as a society, have not yet learned how to overcome the obstacles nature has put in our path nor have we learned to overcome the problems we’ve created for ourselves. We still don’t see that this group has something to offer, that group has something to offer and we’re all here for a reason. We still don’t see that in many instances, whether directly or indirectly, we’ve all contributed to the problem.

Now the question is, can the problem be fixed, and if so, how do we fix it?

 

[Timm]

you are all entirely missing the point of this thread...

 

[Lordbyron]

How so...?

 

[Timm]

the thread's message has nothing to do with black people ruining sicily. Look outside the box at similar threads bashing whitey and see the mockery here. The fact that stealth got bashed just makes it even funnier and more hypocritical of the posters

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

The point of this thread, initially, was a parody of another thread in this forum.

 

[Lordbyron]

I thought this thread was kinda funny...

 

[Dhadnot]

As I stated before if the history isn't right it holds no weight, packs no punch... is ineffectual Timm. When Tyrone socks you up at lunch everyday and you talk/complain about it to the authorities, doesn't it boil you up when they say well what about that time you kicked Tyrone in the shin. Think about that part of your life and apply it to the so-called point being made.

 

[[-KoRp$-]559]

When Tyrone socks you up at lunch everyday and you talk/complain about it to the authorities

ROFL

 

[Mr. Nice Guy]

As I stated before if the history isn't right it holds no weight, packs no punch... is ineffectual Timm. When Tyrone socks you up at lunch everyday and you talk/complain about it to the authorities, doesn't it boil you up when they say well what about that time you kicked Tyrone in the shin. Think about that part of your life and apply it to the so-called point being made.

It also boils me up when I have never met Timm, but Grant thinks I am somehow involved in, or an agent of, Timm's misfortune simply because Tyrone and I share a similar physical characteristic.

 

[Dhadnot]

It also boils me up when humor gets complicated by over-anaylzed shit and atrocious "satirical analogies."

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

 

[Dhadnot]

LOL, yadida Vishnu!

 

[HERESY]

It also boils me up when I have never met Timm, but Grant thinks I am somehow involved in, or an agent of, Timm's misfortune simply because Tyrone and I share a similar physical characteristic.

No.

 

[Stealth]

OK, I have had time to read and sit back so now I’m responding. What I see here are two people who’re passionate about their beliefs and two people who feel that no matter what, people should be treated equally. This is a good thing because at the end of the day the two of you were able to walk away with a better understanding of each other’s position and values.

I, however, attribute your differences to your definitions and/or interpretations of responsibilty and what it means to be responsible. Contrary to what some believe and promote, feeling responsible does not always imply feelings of guilt, wrongdoing or placing blame with one particular group. In many instances, responsibility is stepping up to the plate when no one else will or acknowledging that what happened was wrong (and possibly taking steps to correct the problem.)

I agree with both of you to a certain extent. Whites should not feel responsible solely because they are white. However, whites should acknowledge responsibility, as they (as an overall group) have promoted Eurocentric values and have reaped the majority of benefits from promoting such values. Moreover, I don’t see a double standard because I also have to look at the historical context, the fact many tribes no longer exist today and live in a world were “the system” is designed to benefit whites first, not people of color.

The lack of responsibility does not make whites evil nor does the lack of responsibility make people of color lazy. What we need to look at is our responsibility as HUMANS and our responsibility to our fellow man regardless of how he or she may look, talk, walk, etc. When faced with tribalism, ethnocentrism and just about every other “ism” it is hard to strip away what you first see or encounter and look deeper, but when you look deeper, at the core, you’ll find this is a problem with humanity. And when I say a problem with humanity, I don’t mean a problem as in all people have been subjected to hardships by this group or that group. What I mean by that is our IRRESPONSIBILITY. We, as a society, have not yet learned how to overcome the obstacles nature has put in our path nor have we learned to overcome the problems we’ve created for ourselves. We still don’t see that this group has something to offer, that group has something to offer and we’re all here for a reason. We still don’t see that in many instances, whether directly or indirectly, we’ve all contributed to the problem.

Now the question is, can the problem be fixed, and if so, how do we fix it?

@Heresy,

In ur response you keep using the word "responsibility". In this case, everything you say is absolutely true. No one should feel responsible solely because they are white, however they should feel obligated to change the system out of a sense of social responsibility as humans.

The original question posed, however, was whether people should "feel bad". Asking someone if they "feel bad" or feel guilty is much different than whether they feel responsible.

 

[HERESY]

In ur response you keep using the word "responsibility".

Because that is what it what the problem boils down to.

In this case, everything you say is absolutely true. No one should feel responsible solely because they are white, however they should feel obligated to change the system out of a sense of social responsibility as humans.

Correct.

The original question posed, however, was whether people should "feel bad". Asking someone if they "feel bad" or feel guilty is much different than whether they feel responsible.

And I pointed this out. However, here is an excerpt from one of your previous posts. Pay attention to the bold (emphasis mine):

And if I saw a "Moor" on the streets, I wouldn't hold a grudge for something his ancestors did. That's the whole point. We're all new people, we all come from different backgrounds, and I'll be damned if I let my background dictate how I feel about something. Am I supposed to feel bad for blacks in America because I'm white? Of course not. That's just silly. Are blacks supposed to feel bad that their ancestors sacked Sicily because they're black? That's about a million times crazier of a proposition. Of course, the common thread between the two, is why would anyone feel a sense of obligation to another race for something that they themselves did not do?

So what are we talking about? How one feels (remorse, resentment, anger, love, etc) or how one feels about obligation (responsibility) for something they didn't do?

 

[Timm]

It also boils me up when I have never met Timm, but Grant thinks I am somehow involved in, or an agent of, Timm's misfortune simply because Tyrone and I share a similar physical characteristic.

lol, I've fought plenty of black kids and won, and fought plenty of black kids and lost

and btw good post, dhown syndrome can make some pretty hypocritical posts

 

[Timm]

It also boils me up when humor gets complicated by over-anaylzed shit and atrocious "satirical analogies."

does education also boil you up?

 

[Stealth]

And if I saw a "Moor" on the streets, I wouldn't hold a grudge for something his ancestors did. That's the whole point. We're all new people, we all come from different backgrounds, and I'll be damned if I let my background dictate how I feel about something. Am I supposed to feel bad for blacks in America because I'm white? Of course not. That's just silly. Are blacks supposed to feel bad that their ancestors sacked Sicily because they're black? That's about a million times crazier of a proposition. Of course, the common thread between the two, is why would anyone feel a sense of obligation to another race for something that they themselves did not do?

So what are we talking about? How one feels (remorse, resentment, anger, love, etc) or how one feels about obligation (responsibility) for something they didn't do?

I used the word obligation in connection with guilt.

 

[Stealth]

It also boils me up when humor gets complicated by over-anaylzed shit and atrocious "satirical analogies."

You may not like the analogy, but the fact still remains: Moorish imperialism --> change in social order. Your arguments really only hold up if you group Sicilians with the rest of Italy, which is pretty atrocious in itself.

The Sicilians' seemingly stubborn resistance to assimilation was fueled in part by the hatred they aroused in their new country. Many Americans believed Sicilians were an "inferior race" destined to remain in ignorance and poverty. The prejudice that this belief encouraged generated a vicious cycle of limited economic and educational opportunities. Foremost among those who spurned the Sicilians were the earlier arrivals from northern Italy. The traditional animosity between the northern and southern Italians spilled over into the new land. Northern Italians, who had a greater number of skilled laborers among them, were therefore more likely to land higher-paying jobs than Sicilians, the majority of whom were peasants. Furthermore, northern Italian immigrants were more established in the New World and had begun to achieve a relative degree of prosperity. They were reluctant to be lumped with the newly arrived Sicilians, who they had long considered inferior to them. Consequently, they struggled to disassociate themselves from the Sicilian immigrants. In many instances the northern Italians would move out of neighborhoods when the Sicilians began to populate them. A 1975 article by F. Ianni and E. Reuss in Psychology Today quotes a northern Italian immigrant: "Trust family first, relatives second, Sicilians third, and after that, forget it."

If you can't see the similarities, or choose to be willfully ignorant, that's simply not my problem.

But if the northern Italians were suspicious and dismissive of the Sicilians, then the rest of America was openly hostile. Sicilians were labeled "dirty," "diseased," and "political anarchists" and were accused of introducing a criminal element into the United States, namely the Mafia. The notorious underworld activities of Sicilian Americans such as Charles "Lucky" Luciano were duly reported in newspapers across the United States. The image of the Sicilian "mobster" had devastating consequences for all Sicilians. Numerous innocent Sicilians were charged and convicted of heinous crimes, usually with flimsy circumstantial evidence to support their cases. When the jury system failed to convict, citizens took matters into their own hands. A case in point occurred in 1891 in New Orleans, Louisiana, where 11 Sicilians were lynched by a mob of "good citizens" outraged at the not-guilty verdict returned in a trial. Similar incidents on a smaller scale occurred in other towns throughout Louisiana well into the next century.

Given the amount of hatred these first Sicilian immigrants encountered in the New World, it is not surprising that they preferred to remain in sheltered enclaves surrounded with familiar village dialects and customs. Even as other immigrants began to consider themselves "Americans," Sicilians continued to identify themselves by their particular villages. Neither were they entirely sure of their place in the emerging Italian American culture. Although the United States grouped Sicilians under the category of "Italians," Sicilians were reluctant to do so. The unification with Italy and Sicily was less than 100 years old, and the bitterness it had wrought ran deep among Sicilians. However, second and third-generation Sicilian Americans were less concerned with such distinctions and were more apt to label themselves "Italian Americans."

Ultimately, Sicilian immigrants followed an assimilation pattern similar to northern Italians, albeit at a noticeably slower rate. As educational opportunities increased, so too did economic opportunities. As with Italian Americans overall, Sicilians proved they were "American" in the fullest sense of the word during World War II. Sicilian Americans were able to provide crucial military aid, particularly during the Sicilian campaign of 1943. World War II marked something of a turning point as second-and third generation Sicilians achieved financial security and social acceptance. Although images of mafia lords continue to dog the Sicilians, they are far from being the victims of hatred and discrimination they once were.