CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

[2-0-Sixx]

In the case of murder, rehabilitation is meaningless in my opinion, since no possible act on the face of the earth can heal the wounds caused and the damage done.

Thats where you can I disagree on this topic.

Although I agree that no one can ever bring back the dead, I think there have been countless examples of murderers who spent years in jail and were later released and lived normal, productive lives in society. It’s difficult for me to judge a murderer, especially if the crime was committed at a young age. I know from personal experience that I am completely different than the teenager I once was and I think that’s all the proof I need that people can and often do change.

And while there is nothing humane about being placed in a 6X9 cell, it is much more humane than beating, fucking, or strangling someone to death, or crushing the hopes, dreams, and lives of the innocent.

Murder is brutal, I agree, but again life in prison is nothing nice. I’m sure there are a lot of people out there that would rather die than spend life in prison (including myself).

I believe in rehabilitation, but there are some things that can only be atoned for in blood.

It’s difficult for me to argue against you on this topic because honestly there are some types of people that I think should die (Jeffrey Dahmer, John Gacy, the Green River killer, Dick Cheney, etc.)

I believe the often injudicious adminstration of the death penalty is wrong, but that is the product of something more deeply rooted and endemic in our society - the mass ignorance and idiocy of the american populace. A well educated people will mete out death much more efficiently and rationally.

Agreed. I would add that our society and capitalism in general create the environment for a lot of these crimes (and the stupidity of people)

Also, if your mother or father or sister was killed in a vicious and horrible manner, you would become a quick believer in the death penalty.

You dont know this. There have been quite a few family/friends of victims who oppose the death penalty over the years, some of which have even faught for the murderers life.

 

[The Duke of Earl]

i dont believe in state killin anyone , if you'er a victum's loved one then dont be a pussy kill the murder yourself

 

[HERESY]

i dont believe in state killin anyone , if you'er a victum's loved one then dont be a pussy kill the murder yourself

I lean towards this way when it comes to capital punsihment. If a person commits a serious crime against the state (mcleanhoe spreading aids) or some fool blowing up a building (tim mcveigh was innocent) yes by all means destroy them. If some faggot is molesting lil boys and writing about it in detail (like the guy who molested like 30,000 kids) yeah put that fool down like a sick puppy infested with tapeworms and maggots. I believe these people can be forgiven by god, but in some cases death is the easy way out. Do these faggots like they do in vietnam (or thaland I forgot.) Give the prisoner 6 ounces of rice (or rice substitute) a week and work the hell out of them. They should also let the family members come in and beat the shit out of them.

I also believe in some cases the family SHOULD say fuck it and start dumpin on fools. BUT....I have to say this. I do NOT know much about the Tookie case. What I DO know is NINO was killed while on his way to protest for tookie and his brother RAY was recently released from the hospital. So with that being said I really don't know anything about tookies case but if they killed an innocent man that is something they will have to live with. Personally I think they get off (sexually) on watching a man die and anylyzing that shit too much. "Did you see the way he raised his head", "Did you hear what he was mumbling"......

bullshit

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Although I agree that no one can ever bring back the dead, I think there have been countless examples of murderers who spent years in jail and were later released and lived normal, productive lives in society. It’s difficult for me to judge a murderer, especially if the crime was committed at a young age. I know from personal experience that I am completely different than the teenager I once was and I think that’s all the proof I need that people can and often do change.

Everything on my record was done between the ages of 18 and 21, so I agree with you that acts during teenage years are not necessarily reflective of personal character. However, I believe capital punishment COULD be a deterrent if done correctly. Limit appeals to one; limit death row time, and stop killing humanely. You think there is large-scale theft in Iran, where one's hand gets chopped off? Nope. You think there are fags making out in the street when you get put to death for homosexuality? Nope once again. Punishment can be a preventative measure if it is brutal and inhumane enough.

Murder is brutal, I agree, but again life in prison is nothing nice. I’m sure there are a lot of people out there that would rather die than spend life in prison (including myself).

Personally I somewhat enjoyed my few times in jail. Though none were longer than two months, all were times when I could read, work out, talk, and not deal with any bullshit from my outside life. While I don't condone jail, there are things in jail that you look forward to, i.e. books, new food, kickin it wit ur homies, etc. Then again I went to jail in San Mateo county - the 'silicon valley' jail, so I'm not sure if conditions were the same elsewhere - but I have heard better and worse jails exist.

My cousin who is locked down on the same block as Charlie Manson often has a smile on his face and optimism despite being stabbed 14 times and hospitalized three. If his life was 100 percent pain and sorrow, this wouldn't be the case. He still gets mail, commissary, workout time, rec time, and they're talking about giving him a "job" once they can move him to the 'non-gang' pod. And yes, he isn't locked down for life, but there are things even death row inmates look forward to. And if life in jail was so much more inhumane than dying, jails would have a higher suicide rate than they do. In fact, suicide in jail is far less common than homicide. If jail were comparable to death, more would choose the option of death once inside.

Agreed. I would add that our society and capitalism in general create the environment for a lot of these crimes (and the stupidity of people)

Why then are all of the most educated, intelligent societies with little or no crime and great public health and living standards capitalist? I don't think it's merely capitalism. In America's case, the culture of capitalism does not help, but it's something deeper and more endemic than our economic system.

You dont know this. There have been quite a few family/friends of victims who oppose the death penalty over the years, some of which have even faught for the murderers life.

This is true. What I'm saying is, I've seen it in my personal life.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Everything on my record was done between the ages of 18 and 21

Same here, for the most part. I have to live with a felony, 2nd degree robbery for the rest of my life. Stupid mistake I made when I was a stupid kid (18). It definitely sucks since not one person would ever describe me a robber or a thief, but those are terms that will forever be associated with my name.

But to be honest, if a few things occurred differently in my life, I can honestly picture myself locked up for years and years. It wouldn’t take much.

In the case of Tookie and I’m sure many just like him, the man he was when he did or did not commit those crimes died a long time ago. 24 years in prison will change just about any man. Are you really executing the same man anymore?

However, I believe capital punishment COULD be a deterrent if done correctly. Limit appeals to one; limit death row time, and stop killing humanely. You think there is large-scale theft in Iran, where one's hand gets chopped off? Nope. You think there are fags making out in the street when you get put to death for homosexuality? Nope once again. Punishment can be a preventative measure if it is brutal and inhumane enough.

I guess it depends on the way you look at things. Sure, if you want to live under a society that chops off hands for stealing, I suppose that would be great and you can look at it as a way of preventing theft, to some degree. But I think most people, including myself, do not. Those who steal usually steal because they need, not because they want. Again, conditions created by society, not necessarily the individual, but I see your point (a very twisted one, imo).

Personally I somewhat enjoyed my few times in jail. Though none were longer than two months, all were times when I could read, work out, talk, and not deal with any bullshit from my outside life. While I don't condone jail, there are things in jail that you look forward to, i.e. books, new food, kickin it wit ur homies, etc. Then again I went to jail in San Mateo county - the 'silicon valley' jail, so I'm not sure if conditions were the same elsewhere - but I have heard better and worse jails exist.

Not me, the several months I've spent in jail were certainly not fun. Reading and playing a game of spades here and there were the only things that I enjoyed. Other than that, it sucked. I never really liked any of my cell mates but I did happen to have a few unexpected comrades "drop by" a couple times (unrelated crimes, totally by chance).

My cousin who is locked down on the same block as Charlie Manson often has a smile on his face and optimism despite being stabbed 14 times and hospitalized three. If his life was 100 percent pain and sorrow, this wouldn't be the case. He still gets mail, commissary, workout time, rec time, and they're talking about giving him a "job" once they can move him to the 'non-gang' pod. And yes, he isn't locked down for life, but there are things even death row inmates look forward to.

There will always be a few Charlies in prison that are not affected by imprisonment, but the average Joe typically goes mad. Prison life is a whole different story compared to country jail.

And if life in jail was so much more inhumane than dying, jails would have a higher suicide rate than they do. In fact, suicide in jail is far less common than homicide. If jail were comparable to death, more would choose the option of death once inside

I believe your numbers are misleading. Most murders are gang related, which of course makes it very high and you need to check the numbers of the suicide rates of those who were sentenced to life, without the possibility of parole (it would even be better to have the number of suicide attempts, but I doubt they record things like that). If not, then of course the suicide rate in general is lower than the murder rate (they know, or at least they have hope they will be released).

Why then are all of the most educated, intelligent societies with little or no crime and great public health and living standards capitalist?

I don’t think this is an accurate statement. Most of the countries with the highest educated, lowest crime, highest standards of living, etc. have much more of a balance of capitalism and socialism. Sweden, for example, is a Democratic Socialist state, not really socialist but not really capitalist either. Countries that have a strong working class and strong working class leaders and parties tend to have more of a balance. This is true for most European countries.

I don't think it's merely capitalism. In America's case, the culture of capitalism does not help, but it's something deeper and more endemic than our economic system.

May I ask you to explain further?

 

[JLMACN]

why do they make you wait so long when you are sentenced to death?

5000

 

[Rasan]

why do they make you wait so long when you are sentenced to death?

5000

its not the fact the government makes ya wait..the people on death row appeal there senetnce over and over again thats why

 

[Cmoke]

If you oppose the War in Iraq, it is only logical that you would have been a pacifist in WW2.

dont be so quick to think so

 

[Cmoke]

i think that penalizing somone for a crime (murder) by killing them....kinda condradicts the law itself.

 

[Rasan]

^^^^thats what i been thinking..
so i am against the death penalty because it makes no sense to me

 

[DubbC415]

and concerning the pictures, that's how tons of people justify things...by shocking u. dont support abortion! because we put up pics of aborted fetuses!

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Same here, for the most part. I have to live with a felony, 2nd degree robbery for the rest of my life. Stupid mistake I made when I was a stupid kid (18). It definitely sucks since not one person would ever describe me a robber or a thief, but those are terms that will forever be associated with my name.

It is a damn shame. I have assault and battery and a bomb threat, which has fucked off multiple opportunities I could have had, including interviews I aced and positions I was offered, that were later rescinded.

In the case of Tookie and I’m sure many just like him, the man he was when he did or did not commit those crimes died a long time ago. 24 years in prison will change just about any man. Are you really executing the same man anymore?

Possibly. However Tookie did not apologize or admit guilt, which is part of the criteria Schwarzapollack used to deny his clemency. Furthermore, some believe in absolute right and wrong. If the person has changed, they will be given the opportunity to face spiritual consequences after their death.

I guess it depends on the way you look at things.Again, conditions created by society, not necessarily the individual, but I see your point (a very twisted one, imo).

It's a simple matter of deciding whether or not to evoke harsh punishments to stop a crime. I would not support hand chopping, or execution of homosexuals by any means. If the death penalty is to be a true deterrent, though, it must be administered in a brutal and vicious fashion.

Not me, the several months I've spent in jail were certainly not fun. Reading and playing a game of spades here and there were the only things that I enjoyed. Other than that, it sucked. I never really liked any of my cell mates but I did happen to have a few unexpected comrades "drop by" a couple times (unrelated crimes, totally by chance).

You know its bad when you go to county and see all kinds of your folks here and there. That shit was like a neighborhood reunion for me. lol.

There will always be a few Charlies in prison that are not affected by imprisonment, but the average Joe typically goes mad. Prison life is a whole different story compared to country jail.

True...but I still believe people have things to look forward to in prison life that dead people don't have.

I believe your numbers are misleading. Most murders are gang related, which of course makes it very high and you need to check the numbers of the suicide rates of those who were sentenced to life, without the possibility of parole (it would even be better to have the number of suicide attempts, but I doubt they record things like that). If not, then of course the suicide rate in general is lower than the murder rate (they know, or at least they have hope they will be released).

I suppose I'd have to revisit my earlier findings to confirm it. Lacking the effort at this point.

I don’t think this is an accurate statement. Most of the countries with the highest educated, lowest crime, highest standards of living, etc. have much more of a balance of capitalism and socialism. Sweden, for example, is a Democratic Socialist state, not really socialist but not really capitalist either. Countries that have a strong working class and strong working class leaders and parties tend to have more of a balance. This is true for most European countries.

I'd say European successes have less to do with the strength of the working class and more to do with the fact that Europeans have a global and societal perspective as opposed to the individualist protectionism we see here in the states. Swedes routinely gripe about high taxes, however they routinely elect those that vote for high taxes in the first place. The European model is a good and tested alternative to 'Capitalism gone wild', however it suffers primarily economic drawbacks. The American economy tends to be much more liquid, much more mobile, and much quicker to scoop profits than European firms. The downside we face is the dog-eat-dog mentality which prevails in America.

In other words, it is easier to make a million dollars in America than it is in Norway, Sweden, or Canada. The trade-off is that it is also easier in America to go broke and starve. The average American CEO makes up to 20 times more than European CEOs in wages proportional to their average workers. (European CEOs usually make around 100 to 200 times the wages of their average worker. American CEOs make anywhere from 300 to 1000 times income.)

Last question later.

 

[LA Dodgers]

a question for those of you on the right.

If you support the death penalty, do you also support abortion? Why or why not?

Death Penalty---Yes i support
Abortion---No I do Not Support

the reason for the difference is thast Abortion is Murdering INNOCENT LIFE, death penalty recipients are guilty of Murder and/or other heinous crimes

 

[The Duke of Earl]

^pussy

i dont believe in state killin anyone , if you'er a victum's loved one then dont be a pussy kill the murder yourself

 

[Cmoke]

You should have to spend the rest of your lie in a shithole for killing people......not being killed and ending your pain....

abortion. should only be able to be preformed in rape cases...anything else you fucked up bitch...now live with the consiquences stupid fuckin bitch or keep yo hoe legs shut.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

^^So a broke crack-whore who has sex with her brother should keep the baby? Hmm, who are you then really punishing? The crack-whore or the baby?

 

[DubbC415]

oh yeah, i forgot, not matter what, its always the "Bitches" fault.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Jesus fucking christ, I almost fucked up your entire reply White Devil. Still don’t have this mod shit down. I wanted to QUOTE you but accidentally clicked the EDIT button, pasted my reply into the message field and clicked Submit Reply. Luckily I realized my mistake and and clicked back before it was too late. lol

I'd say European successes have less to do with the strength of the working class and more to do with the fact that Europeans have a global and societal perspective as opposed to the individualist protectionism we see here in the states.

Some would argue that Europeans have a "global and societal perspective" thanks large in part to the strong working class leaders, parties, etc. that fought against the ruling elite after all these years.

Remember, strong economies and having lots of money doesn’t automatically mean having the highest standards of living. In most European countries they work less hours, have more paid vacation time, and they don’t obsess over their jobs. This isn’t because that’s just the way Europeans are; they had to fight very hard to maintain this kind of lifestyle, thanks to the strong Unions, working class parties, etc. That’s why you see so many protests/strikes etc. in Europe.

Swedes routinely gripe about high taxes, however they routinely elect those that vote for high taxes in the first place. The European model is a good and tested alternative to 'Capitalism gone wild', however it suffers primarily economic drawbacks. The American economy tends to be much more liquid, much more mobile, and much quicker to scoop profits than European firms. The downside we face is the dog-eat-dog mentality which prevails in America.

In other words, it is easier to make a million dollars in America than it is in Norway, Sweden, or Canada. The trade-off is that it is also easier in America to go broke and starve. The average American CEO makes up to 20 times more than European CEOs in wages proportional to their average workers. (European CEOs usually make around 100 to 200 times the wages of their average worker. American CEOs make anywhere from 300 to 1000 times income.)

Hmm, those aren't draw backs at all, I mean seriously, who gives a fuck about the rich? Yes, an Amerikan CEO gains 1000X more than a Euro CEO but their both rich and it matters little about the rich when they make up such a tiny fraction of society. And that is really what we’re talking about here - society as a whole, the general population. When we speak of things like "higher standards of living" and shit like that we're not talking about some rich fucktard in the Hamptons, were talking about you, me, HERSEY, tadou, etc., the average Joe.




::::
This is probably a stupid ass question but it’s something that popped in my head the other day and its unrelated to the topic...maybe you know the answer…when we hear figures like "the average US citizen earns $27,000 a year", how do they get this number? When they calculate the average, do they include those who make 20 million a year or whatever? If so, then wouldn’t that make the real average a whole fucking lot less if they exclude the rich?

 

[Cmoke]

^^So a broke crack-whore who has sex with her brother should keep the baby? Hmm, who are you then really punishing? The crack-whore or the baby?

theres no punishment handed out, its simply accepting the risk that you take by having unprotected sex...if the kid comes out all fucked up then thats just another issue you gotta deal with along with living conditions etc....being alive and having a chance is far better then never getting one at all in my opinion, but thats just how i see it.

i believe that only rape and sex crime victims should be able to apply for an abortion through the court system or some other way.

 

[Rasan]

whats the difference bewteen a crack whore...and a bad parent in general?
i knew a braud who used to leave her kid at a daycare for the weekend without no notice..sometimes her son would be int he middle of the street and she didn't know...
abortion should only be used for sex crimes thats it..
it shoudln't be something you should fall back on. thats bullshit and wrong imo