Any muslims here?

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 9, 2003

miggidy said:

Actually its the Muslims who know about other religions and thier own. Its kind of common sense to have knowledge of other religions........a good example of the people who do this are the ones in Iran...I forget what you call them...I think its Sheik....I forget. But as far as americans.....damn they are the worse when it comes to making up lies and misconceptions and shit. It really pisses me off. They like Jihad holy war, you gotta kill anyone who is non muslim, and killing innocent people is ok! some shit like taht, im like why would the fastest growing religion be liek that?

And just to throw this in for people who may be reading this

*Dont attack muslims and islam cuz u see some guy saying that Islam is bad cuz they do suicide attacks and they kill innocent people in the name of Allah. Attack the people who represent the religion wrong. Just like in the past, with chrisitanity they had indulgences, and they sold positions in the church. Im not going to attack the religion, ima speak on those people cuz thats not what christianity is.
:dead:

people here in the USA are fuckin stuck on the TV and believe everything they hear or say, but are too lazy to sit down and research. As far as islam, just sit down with the quran and read. All the answers to whatever question...are in there

miggidy · Apr 9, 2003

Yeah,

My girl was born in England but grew up in Malaysia.
Over there, relgion is a school subject.
You must learn about every other religion in the world.
So yeah, Muslims do seem to have a good understandment of other religions.

But in America? Oh no that's a different story.
It's against the law to teach religion in schools. Teach is the key word, I don't see what's wrong with teaching it. Preaching it is another subject....
They live in fear bro.
You know what they fear?
They fear God....
They fear that they will lose their grip if people find God....

Look at the old USSR and look at China today.
You are persecuted in China if you teach people about God and God was prohibited in the old Soviet Union.
The same thing is happenning here in America, little by little, they're trying to erase God.
Or at least the idea of God...

And that is why you have so many ignorant Americans when it comes to knowledge about other cultures and religion.
Africa is looked upon as a fucking jungle and the middle east as a fucking desert. These fucks have no idea what the rest of the world is like. I wish, I wish every American would visit at least one 3rd world country in their life time. The world isn't how we see it from here.

Ignorance bro, ignorance plagues these jack asses who target American Muslims and Arabs.
Some call them closet racists. They only come out when they have an excuse to hate on a person of color.
Take the one Indian Shiek who was killed in Texas because people thought he was Muslim.
Ignorant fucks....

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 9, 2003

^ yea man.....people here dont know shit about eachothers religion and they dont know shit about other peoples culture. They like ARABS! what did they do to deserve to live in AMerica. HAHAHA i hear that shit all the time....stupid fucks dont even know:

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 9, 2003

MATHEMATICS
In mathematics, the Arab sifr, or zero, provided new solutions for complicated mathematical problems. The Arabic numeral – an improvement on the original Hindu concept – and the Arab decimal system facilitated the course of science. The Arabs invented and developed algebra and made great strides in trigonometry. Al-Khwarizmi, credited with the founding of algebra, was inspired by the need to find a more accurate and comprehensive method of ensuring precise land divisions so that the Koran could be carefully obeyed in the laws of inheritance. The writings of Leonardo da Vinci, Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, and Master Jacob of Florence show the Arab influence on mathematical studies in European universities. The reformation of the calendar, with a margin of error of only one day in five thousand years, was also a contribution of Arab intellect.

ASTRONOMY
Like algebra, the astrolabe was improved with religion in mind. It was used to chart the precise time of sunrises and sunsets, and to determine the period for fasting during the month of Ramadan, Arab astronomers of the Middle Ages compiles astronomical charts and tables in observatories such as those at Palmyra and Maragha. Gradually, they were able to determine the length of a degree, to establish longitude and latitude, and to investigate the relative speeds of sound and light. Al-Biruni, considered one of the greatest scientists of all time, discussed the possibility of the earth’s rotation on its own axis – a theory proven by Galileo six centuries later. Arab astronomers such as al-Fezari, al-Farghani, and al-Zarqali added to the works of Ptolemy and the classic pioneers in the development of the magnetic compass and the charting of the zodiac. Distinguished astronomers from all over the world gathered to work at Maragha in the thirteenth century.

MEDICINE
In the field of medicine, the Arabs improved upon the healing arts of ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt.

Al-Razi, a medical encyclopedist of the ninth century, was an authority on contagion. Among his many volumes of medical surveys, perhaps the most famous is the Kitab al-Mansuri. It was used in Europe until the sixteenth century. Al-Razi was the first to diagnose smallpox and measles, to associate these diseases and others with human contamination and contagion, to introduce such remedies as mercurial ointment, and to use animal gut for sutures.

The famous scientist-philosopher known in Europe as Avicenna was Ibn Sina, an Arab. He was the greatest writer of medicine in the Middle Ages, and his Canon was required reading throughout Europe until the seventeenth century. Avicenna did pioneer work in mental health, and was a forerunner of today’s psychotherapists. He believed that some illnesses were psychosomatic, and he sometimes led patients back to a recollection of an incident buried in the subconscious in order to explain the present ailment.

In the fourteenth Century, when the Great Plague ravaged the world, Ibn Khatib and Ibn Khatima of Granada recognized that it was spread by contagion. In his book, Kitabu’l Maliki, al-Maglusi showed a rudimentary conception of the capillary system; an Arab from Syria, Ibn al-Nafis, discovered the fundamental principles of pulmonary circulation.

Camphor, cloves, myrrh, syrups, juleps, and rosewater were stocked in Arab sydaliyah (pharmacies) centuries ago. Herbal medicine was widely used in the Middle East, and basil, oregano, thyme, fennel, anise, licorice, coriander, rosemary, nutmeg, and cinnamon found their way through Arab pharmacies to European tables.

ARCHITECTURE
As with astronomy and mathematics, the great purpose of early Arab architecture was to glorify Islam. Architects devoted their skills primarily to the building of mosques and mausoleums. They borrowed the horseshow arch from the Romans, developed it into their own unique style, and made it an example for the architecture of Europe. The Great Mosque of Damascus, built in the 4early eighth century, is a beautiful demonstration of the use of the horseshoe arch. The mosque of Ibn Tulun in Cairo, with its pointed arches, was the inspiration behind the building of many magnificent cathedrals in Europe.

Arab cusp, tefoil, and ogee arches provided models for the Tudor arch such as those used in the cathedrals of Wells in England and Chartres in France. The Muslin minaret, itself inspired by the Greek lighthouse, became the campanile in Europe. One of the most famous examples of this can be seen in the San Marcos Square in Venice.

Designs from the Islamic mosques of Jerusalem, Mecca, Tripoli, Cairo, Damascus, and Constantinople were borrowed in the building of ribbed vaults in Europe. The Arab use of cubal transitional supports under domes was incorporated into the cathedrals and palaces of eleventh and twelfth century Palermo.

Arab styles were elegant and daring. Arabesque designs, calligraphy, and explosions of color can be seen today in such structures as the Lion Court of the Alhambra Palace in Granada, the Great Mosque of Cordoba, and many of the great medieval religious and civic buildings of Europe.

While we as Westerners are more familiar with the influence of Arab architecture of the Romance countries of Spain, Italy and France, we do not often remember that the Arab empires reached into Eastern Europe and Asia as well. Startling remnants of a once powerful conquest are particularly prevalent in Russia. The brilliant blue tiled done of the Mosque of Bibi Khanum, Timu’s (Tamerlane) favorite wife, catches the visitor’s eye in Samarkand. Here, as well as in the complex of tombs called Shah-I-Zinda (the Living Prince), much of the old beauty is being returned to its former elegance through restoration.

NAVIGATION AND GEOGRAPHY
The world’s earliest navigational and geographical charts were developed by Canaanites who, probably simultaneously with the Egyptians, discovered the Atlantic Ocean. The medieval Arabs improved upon ancient navigational practices with the development of the magnetic needle in the ninth century.

One of the most brilliant geographers of the medieval world was al-Idrisi, a twelfth century scientist living in Sicily. He was commissioned by the Norman King, roger II, to compile a world atlas, which contained seventy maps. Some of the areas were therefore uncharted. Called Kitabal-Rujari (Roger’s book), Idrisi’s work was considered the best geographical guide of its time.

Ibn Battuta, an Arab, must have been the hardiest traveler of his time. He was not a professional geographer, but in his travels by horse, camel and sailboat, he covered over seventy five thousand miles. His wanderings, over a period of decades at a time, took him to Turkey, Bulgaria, Russia, Persia, and central Asia. He spent several years in India, and from there was appointed ambassador to the emperor of China. After China, he toured all of North Africa and many places in western Africa. Ibn Battuta’s book, Rihla (journey), is filled with information on the politics, social conditions, and economics of the places he visited.

A twenty five year old Arab, captured by Italian pirates in 1520, has received much attention in the West. He was Hassan al-Wazzan, who became a protégé of Pope Leo X. Leo persuaded the young man to become a Christian, gave him his own name, and later convinced him to write an account of his travels on the them almost unknown African continent. Hassan became Leo Africanus and his book was translated into several European languages. For nearly two hundred year, Leo Africanus was read as the most authoritative source on Africa.

It should also be remembered that in the fifteenth century Vasco da Gama, exploring the east coast of Africa new Malindi, was guided by an Arab pilot who used maps never before seen by Europeans. The pilot’s name was Ahmed ibn Majid.

HORTICULTURE
The ancient Arabs loved the land, for in earth and water they saw the source of life and the greatest of God’s gifts. They were guided by the words attributed to the Prophet: “Whoever bringeth the dead land to life… for him is reward therein.” They were pioneers in botany. In the twelfth century an outstanding reference work, Al-Filahat by Ibn al-Awam, described more than five hundred different plants and methods of grafting, soil conditioning, and curing of diseased vines and trees.

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 9, 2003

The Arab contributions to food production are legion. They were able to graft a single vine so that it would bear grapes in different colors, and their vineyards were responsible for the future of wine industries of Europe. Peach, apricot, and loquat trees were transplanted in southern Europe by Arab soldiers. The hardy olive was encouraged to grow in the sandy soil of Greece, Spain, and Sicily. From India they introduced the cultivation of sugar, and from Egypt they brought cotton to European markets. “May there always be coffee at your house” was their expression, wishing prosperity and the joy of hospitality for their friends. Coffee was qahwah that which gives strength, and derivatives of that name are used today in almost every country of the world. They also perfected the storage of soft fruits to be eaten fresh throughout the year.

Arab horticulture gave the world the fragrant flowers and herbs from which perfumes were extracted. Their walled gardens were for the pleasure of the senses – a pine tree standing green and aromatic in the heart of a garden scented with jasmine; a fountain or artificial pool to delight the eye amidst lavender and laurel; a special rose garden blooming in riotous color, the roots injected with saffron to produce yellow, and indingo to produce blue; vines and trees injected with perfumes in the autumn flooding the air with fragrance in the spring; a weeping willow dripping gracefully into the middle of a clear lake; arbors and pergolas constructed where streams of water could bubble through them, cooling the air and giving relief from the heat of the desert. Mimosa and wild cherry lavished color against stonewalls, and cypress grew tall, close and straight bordering alleyways to obliterate from view all that was not pleasing.

Bulb flowers were already in a highly hybridized and cultivated state when the Crusaders carried them home from Palestine to western Europe toward the end of the centuries of Arab power. Rice, Sesame, pepper, ginger, cloves, melons and shallots, as well as dates, figs, oranges, lemons, and other citrus fruits, were introduced into European cuisine via the Crusaders and the trade caravans of Eastern merchants.

The women of Europe borrowed from the cosmetics first prepared by the Egyptians, Syrians, and Phoenicians. Some of these included lipsticks, nail polishes, eye shadow, eye liner (kohl), perfumes and powders, hair dyes (henna), body lotions and oils, and even wigs. A symbol of the vanity of the medieval ladies of European courts was the high peaked, pointed cap with its trailing veil of silk. This fashion of Jerusalem was called the tontour, and noble ladies of both the East and Europe vied with each other on the height of the tontour and the elegance of the fabrics used in the design of the face-framing millinery.

Much of our contemporary jewelry is a result of inspiration from adornments of the ancient and medieval Arabs, and the highly prized squash blossom design was once on the uniform bottle worn by Spanish Conquistadors.

OTHER SCIENCES
Concerning Arab contributions to engineering, one can look to the water wheel, cisterns, irrigation, water wells at fixed levels, and the water clock. In 860, the three sons of Musa ibn Shakir published the Book on Artifices, which described a hundred technical constructions. One of the earliest philosophers, al-Kindi, wrote on specific weight, tides, light reflection and optics.

Al-Haytham (known in Europe as Alhazen) wrote a book in the tenth century on optics, Kitab Al Manazir. He explored optical illusions, the rainbow, and the camera obscura (which led to the beginning of photographic instruments). He also made discoveries in atmospheric refractions (mirages and comets, for example), studied the eclipse, and laid the foundation for the later development of the microscope and the telescope. Al-Haytham did not limit himself to one branch of the sciences, but like many of the Arab scientists and thinkers, explored and made contributions to the fields of physics, anatomy and mathematics.

CRAFTS
Because the ancient Arabs believed that the arts served God, they raised small scale artistries to new levels of perfection. Glassware, ceramics, and textile weaves attest to their imagination and special skills. They covered walls and objects with intricately detailed mosaics, tiles, carvings, and paintings. Syrian beakers and rock crystals were in great demand in Renaissance Europe and the Azulejos. The iridescent luster pottery from the Moorish kilns in Valencia, also enjoyed great popularity. New glazing techniques were developed, and the brilliant blues took on many names. (The Chinese called them Muhammedan blues, and Dutch traders called them Chinese blues).

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 9, 2003

They were masters of silk weaving, and the Arab cape worn by Sicily's King Robert II on his coronation is one of the best examples of this delicate art. Cotton muslin, Damask linen and Shiraz wool became watchwords for quality in textiles in Europe.

One considers Moroccan leather to be of particularly fine quality. The Moroccan tanners of the Middle Ages developed methods for tanning hides almost to the softness of silk, and they used vegetable dyes that retained color indefinitely. These leathers were used for bookbindings, and the gold tooling and colored panels of the Arab style are still being produced, particularly in Venice and Florence to the present day.

The Arabs further developed the art of crucible steel forging. They hardened the steel, polished and decorated it with etchings, and produced tempered Damascene swords. Other works in metal included intricately cut brass chandeliers, ewers, salvers, jewel cases inlaid with gold and silver, and, of course, the beautifully decorated astrolabe.

LANGUAGE AND CALLIGRAPHY
Because God spoke to Muhammed in Arabic, Muslims venerated the Arabic language. Thus, to Muslims, Arabic calligraphy itself became an art form. It was the chief form of embellishment on all the mosques of the Arab world, and the religious and public buildings of Palermo, Cordoba, Lisbon and Malaga are resplendent with it.

The Arabic language is rich and pliant, and poetry, literature, and drama have left their mark on both East and West. Among the earliest publications of the Arabs were the translations into Arabic of the Greek and Roman classics – the works of Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, Ptolemy, Dioscorides and Galen. Some note that the poet Nizami’s translations of the twelfth century romance, Layla and Majnun, may have been an inspiration for the later work, Romeo and Juliet. Ibn Tufail’s Hayy ibn Yaqzan (Alive, Son of Awake), considered by many to be the first real novel, was translated by Pocock into Latin in 1671 and by Simon Ockley into English in 1708. It bears many similarities to Defoe’s Robinson Crusoe. A Thousand and One Nights and Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyat are among the best loved and most widely read of Arab literature. The fascination with Arabic, following the Hellenistic period of Louis XIV, is particularly evident in Shakespeare’s characterizations of the Moors (Othello and the Price of Morocco), in Christopher Marlowe’s Tamburlaine the Great, and in George Peel’s The Battle of Alcazar.

Besides influencing belles letters, the Arabs developed a system of historiography called isnad. This procedure documents all reliable sources and it provides the modern historian with accurate and comprehensive materials. Foremost among these historiographers was Ibn Khaldun, of whose Book of Examples Arnold Toynbee writes: “Ibn Khaldun, has conceived and formulated a philosophy of history which is undoubtedly the greatest work of its kind that has ever yet been created by any mind in any time.”

MUSIC
The harp, lyre, zither, drum, tambourine, flute, oboe and reed instruments are today either exactly as they were used from earliest Arab civilization or variations of the Arabs’ early musical instruments. The guitar and mandolin are sisters to that plaintive, pear-shaped stringed instrument, the oud.

The bagpipe was first introduced into Europe by Crusaders returning from the wars in Palestine. It quickly became identified with the British Isles. Once the entertainment of the lonely Arab shepherds, the bagpipe returned to Palestine with the British Army. This lost musical art was relearned during the period of Sir John Glubb’s reorganization and command of Jordan’s colorful Bedouin Corps.

Arab poetry was put to music the subtle delicacy of minor key sequences and rhythm. The modes continue to influence our ballads and folk songs today. Extempore poetry was perfected into musical expression, and Arab wedding and other occasions are still celebrated with extempore versing and musical composition.

PHILOSOPHY
Arab philosophers effectively integrated faith and scientific fact, letting one exit within the framework of the other. The Arab philosophers after Byzantium re-discovered the classic philosophy of Aristotle, Plotinus, and Plato in attempting to find answers to the fundamental questions concerning God’s creation of the universe, the nature and destiny of the human soul, and the true existence of the seen as the unseen.

Among the well-known philosophers of the medieval world were al-Kindi, who contributed to the work of Plato and Aristotle; al-Farabi, who made a model of Man’s community; Avicenna (Ibn Sina), who developed theories on form and matter that were incorporated into medieval Christian Scholasticism; Ibn Khaldun, who expounded the cycles of a state in his Muqqadimah (Introduction).

In discussing contributions to human civilizations of some of the medieval Arab scientists, artists, educators, philosophers, poets and musicians, one must remember that their thought was molded and shaped by many ancient cultures – Greek, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Byzantine, Canaanite and Egyptian, for example. Arab culture, from its ancient beginnings to the present, has given us three great monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In government and law, one refers to Hammurabi (Babylonian), Ulpian and Papinian (Phoenicians). Perhaps the greatest contribution of the Arabs to human civilization has been the phonetic alphabet.

In all aspects of our daily lives, then – in our homes, offices and universities; in religion, philosophy, science and the arts – we are indebted to Arab creativity, insight and scientific perseverance.

His brief survey of Arab contributions to human civilization was written by Mary Macron of Cleveland, Ohio. Mary, one of our first members, was proud of her Arab heritage and she sought to share it with others. She passed away in 1981. Her death has been a great loss to the Arab-American community. We are grateful to Cleveland State University’s Ethnic Heritage Studies Program for allowing us to reprint Mary’s essay as a tribute to her. The selection was edited for publication by David Hamod.

In compiling “Arab Contributions to Human Civilizations,” Mary Macron relied extensively on Rom Landau’s The Arab Heritage of Western Civilization (The League of Arab States, Arab Information Center, 747 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10017).

For further reading on Arab contributions to civilization, ADC recommends The Genius of Arab civilization: source of Renaissance (John Hayes, ed., New York University Press, 1975), History of the Arabs (Philip K. Hitti, St. Martin’s Press, tenth edition 1970), and The Legacy of Islam (Sir Thomas Arnold and Alfred Guillaume, eds., Oxford University Press (1968).

miggidy · Apr 9, 2003

^^^^
They never teach any of that in our schools.
All they teach us is that the Middle East is full of sand and that Arabs invented transportation via camels.

I'm not trying to be funny but that's the truth.
Look at Sinbad, he's played by some white dude with a sun tan.

Willy Jones · Apr 9, 2003

Then stop proselytizing and evangelizing. If you were "seeking" something you shouldn't ask a question, get the response, and write 2 pages on why that person's response was wrong.

You're using "interfaith dialogue" and an excuse to preach the "Word." I respect the Jehovah's witnesses who come to my door more than you - because they make no bones about the fact that they are there to convert you. You on the other hand:

Miggidy: I have a question. What does Koran say about so and so? I don't know anything about the issue.
Muslim: It says this and that.
Miggidy: (goes on for 3 pages, proving he knew the issues all along - quoting several islamic websites). But you guys should read the (names of scriptures which he can't read because he only speaks english). They are miracles of God!
Muslim: Stop trying to convert me.

Why did you come into this subject if you already have a Koran, hundreds of pages of web resources, and an Islamic question and answer page from a respected scholar at your disposal? You knew the answer to your question before you even asked it.

Why did you lie?

Spacing after every single sentence you type doesn't make you look like you like a friendly wise old spiritual sage - so cut the crap and talk to me like a normal person. You're not going to earn anyone's trust and respect by pressing enter after every period.

Oh I thought you were here to find out which was the true scripture of God and ask honest questions.

whoops!

Regarding Dead Sea Scrolls found in one particular cave:

"In Cave 4, 157 fragmentary biblical texts were retrieved, among which is every book of the Hebrew canon, save Esther (and Nehemiah, which at that time was considered as one book with Ezra). Eventually, these Cave 4 fragments revealed a different story about the copying and transmission of Old Testament writings. In some cases, especially 1-2 Samuel, Jeremiah, and Exodus, the fragments brought to light forms or recensions of biblical books that differed from the medieval Masoretic tradition. For instance, one text turned out to be a shorter Hebrew form of Jeremiah, previously known only in its Greek version in the Septuagint. It now seems that the fuller form of Masoretic tradition represents a Palestinian rewording of the book. Another from Cave 4, written in paleo-Hebrew script and dated from the early second century B.C., contains the repetitious expanded form of Exodus previously known only in Samaritan writings, ("The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible: After Forty Years," America, October 31, 1987, p. 302, emphasis added).

This "different story" told by the discoveries in Cave Four at Qumran is a story that Bible inerrantists have been conspicuously silent about, probably because it puts to rest all notions of scrupulously meticulous ancient scribes who counted all the letters in the copies they made to be sure that no mistakes had occurred. The Cave Four discoveries tell us that mistakes were not only made but that textual changes were also made with probable deliberation."

I guess 2000 years of Rabbanical scholarship - dating all the way back to the students of Moses including "Saint" Paul of Tarsus - wrongly interpreted the verse - and you gave the correct interpretation.

It's a prohibition miggidy - "Saint" Paul even acknowledged that it was law that the jews were not permitted to eat the meat of the swine.

Oh and the Bible also states in Deuteronomy that Jews cannot eat the meat of anything which chews cud and does not have cloven feet. It then mentions that you are not allowed to eat rabbit and explicity states rabbits chew cud. You're also not allowed to eat birds of prey - and the Bible then mentions that it includes bats.

...

Oh wait rabbits don't chew cud, and bats aren't birds. I guess somebody forgot to explain that to your god.

Actually Muhammad said in a confirmed narration (from the scholars of of the science)...pardon me, he COMMANDED "...Let your beards grow...trim the moustaches." I have a reference for you but

THAT'S RIGHT YOU DON'T SPEAK ARABIC. YOU AREN'T AN EXPERT. NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR ISLAMIC FATWA OR YOUR BIBLICAL EXEGESIS BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED TO GIVE ONE.

No you don't.

I guess I'll give you that. Considering most americans think muslims are the same thing as hindus, that's not saying much.

Notice he said "fuck" just to convince us that much harder with his good cop/bad cop routine.

You're an idiot. Go away.

HERESY · Apr 9, 2003

::steps in the convo::

hmmmmmmmmmm

::shakes his head at the idiots who type about things they dont know and walks out::

::walks back in and ponders if he should show how the QU'RAN was changed MANY times....::

::smiles and remembers his qu'ran.....::

:H:

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 9, 2003

HERESY said:

Quran was never changed you idiot:dead:

HERESY · Apr 9, 2003

^^^^^^are you the person who kept hitting me on aol instant messenger? are you the person who had nothing better to do than to raise my warning level????

the quran has never been changed?????? LMAO!!!

i wont go into the many aberrations and grammatical errors in the quran.

i wont go into the FACT that uthmans version has MISSING verses.

i wont go into the FACT that the quran uses words other than arabic...greek words,hebrew words,persian etc etc etc

i wont go into what the quran states about TAWRAT,INJIL,ZABUR AND SAHAIF

the mus-hafs that you have today are full of holes. compare the tashkent with the egyptian version and see what happens....

have a good day muslim.

:H::classic:

HERESY · Apr 9, 2003

compare yusuf ali to bucaille.

:H:

miggidy · Apr 9, 2003

Willy Jones said:

Funny, easy to point the finger at someone else but yet you fail to smell your own shit.
How did this shit get started? Didn't it started when I asked a question concerning a story in the Qur'an?
I got my response and said that I wanted to compare the 4 known versions of Noah to find which one version best matches actual archeological findings. And this in turn will guide me into finding the real scripture of God.
That's all I fucken said.
But here you went shootin from the hip and running your mouth like a fool. How was that evangelizing????
I don't mean this as disrespect but I'm being honest here, you are a fool! Your jumpy nerves got you on the offensive for misunderstanding my intentions. Like a fool, you jumped into conclusions. And you were dead wrong, again like a fool.

I only described my background to prove my point when answering your misconceptions.
I wasn't trying to preach shit, I was just explaining myself so let it go for a second.

Willy Jones said:

More of the same, like the J.W.'s I didn't come in here preaching.
It is only your idiotic assumption. So stop making a fool out of yourself and stop assuming!

Now as far as me not knowing Arabic, how's that my fault?
Are you implying that the only true version of the Qur'an is in Arabic? Say that to the millions of non-Arabic speaking Muslims.... Fool....

Willy Jones said:

Who the fuck told you I was a sage?
Oh yeah, your idiotic assumptions.
I am talking like a normal person, maybe it's you who's abnormal.
With shit talking how are you going to earn anyone's respect?
Be greatful that it's me who you talk to, cuz I could care less what comes out of your mouth.
Now can we have a normal adult conversation here?
That is if you are an adult, if not then I'm just wasting my time with you....

Willy Jones said:

Man you claim to have been Christian but yet you know so little about the bible.
Do you even understand how it came to be?
The bible is not like the Qur'an, which is a complete book written by the same author (Well actually the same talker, Mohammed's "words" were recorded and written down by writers years after he passed away).
The bible is the Christian church's collection of God inspired scripture. They collected the scriptures to the best of their ability and many times didn't include books because they weren't sure of their authenticity. They played it safe....
Before the dead sea scrolls, all the church had was the Leningradensis, the oldest complete bible.
Which dates back to 1008 A.D.
Up until the dead sea scrolls, the world thought that the Christian church made the bible up themselves back when they gathered all the known scriptures around the 3rd century.
People didn't trust them, accusing them of making the shit up.
But then the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls changed everything.
You're gonna find paragraphs missing in the hebrew bible that are found on the dead sea scrolls and vice versa. You're going to find sentences missing. And you will find a few gramatical errors, but the story is the same and small stuff change nothing.
The dead sea scrolls were a collection of scripture themselves, in different languages on top of that.

But that doesn't take integrity away from the bible, not at all.
Do you think I just read the bible?
There's tons of other outside sourced books backing it up that weren't included in the final book.
The church wasn't sure about it so they included only those books that Jesus spoke about.

Willy Jones said:

Did you not read Acts?

And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean...
"But in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him" (Acts 10:28,35).

In short, God told Peter that He had made a way for all men to enter Heaven (Jew or none Jew, including you).
A way which bypassed the cleanliness laws relating to the earthly Temple.
This is hard for you to grasp because you are Muslim.
Jesus taught how to forgive, have mercy on men and God will have mercy on you. He taught love, God loves you and understands your uncontrolable desires. Therefore he will not condemn you even if you cannot follow all of his laws, he loves you that much. What's important to him is that you accept his sacrifice for you. That's what Christianity is all about.

Even the Qur'an tells you that you are not to have sex during Ramadan. But that God understands your needs and allows it.
He doesn't approve it, but "tolerates" it.

Willy Jones said:

But what is the debate here?
Why is it that a lot of Muslims do not follow what their prophet instructed them to do?
Isn't the argument that God did not ask this of you, but it was Mohammed?

And tell me, who is qualified to speak?
Shouldn't everyone be qualified to echo facts?

Willy Jones said:

Now what does that mean?
It would help if you weren't making assumptions and just judge me for my words.

Peace,
[email protected]

PS. E-mail me if you want to continue this discussion.
I'd rather debate about religion over e-mail, that is if you want to debate about it. You brought it up, I didn't....

Willy Jones · Apr 10, 2003

I'll address a few points and then step away - unless I see something which I absolutely cannot resist responding to.

Point 1) Heresy and Miggidy aren't scholars from any american university or otherwise in etymology, fush-ha arabic, ancient greek and hebrew, or aramaic. They are not capable of "researching" anything.

Their research is to copy, cut, and paste from their favorite websites and pass it as their own. I find it VERY hard to especially take Heresy seriously considering his position on the christian religion as well as mine is, at the least, VERY strange. I remember several conversations on IM where you told me that if anyone was to talk shit to you at the siccness barbecue that you wouldn't hesitate to put a bullet in their forehead and send them to hell. I asked you what God would think and you responded:

"Very well done."

I'm not a saint myself but the difference is - I'm not taking the position as the shephard to the spiritually lost on the siccness (turn to me I will help you bla bla).

Point 2) You're quoting from a christian polemic attacking the variants of the Qur'anic recitations. More than likely Jochen Katz. You're parroting from his website. You do not have access to the manuscript in tashkent.

You can easily go see it, Heresy, next time you come out to camden. It's (a photocopy) 2 hours away in Columbia New York, and I have gone to see it and I can read it because I know the language. Maybe you should take flights to research what you're talking about instead of taking flights to appear on now-cancelled talk shows calling your own race a bunch of niggers and geechees to promote your death heavy metal rock album.

Now then.

Well, see, you can't because you don't speak arabic. That's like a latin american immigrant from Argentina who speaks no english criticizing Webster's Dictionary.

Why don't you just quote the websites you're plagiarizing instead of trying to make people believe you know what you're talking about.

Since we live on planet earth and not mars we, as human beings, talk to eachother. Words assimilate into different languages. English words have roots in arabic, french, latin, and german. Arabic was not the first language on earth and it won't be the last - it has spawned from and spawns words.

I don't know what point you're trying to make because the Qur'an contains words like "nasara" which comes from from "Nazareth," and I'm not interested in what points you're trying to make because you're not an expert in etymology - you've never taken one single course in it.

However, I'm not dumb and I suspect you're about to parrot "Dr." Christopher Heger's articles on the Qur'an being a syrian christian hymn or whatever - so to refute that let me just give a few links:

Credible etymology source and refuting Dr. Heger

Again, you're just rattling off red herrings - making wild accusations which you, personally, don't even understand. Needless to say, you're wrong.

Here's a link for the people reading this "debate's" benefit

This is quickly going to deteriorate into "My scholars v.s. Your Scholars" so I'll just say this. You people have rudely invaded a thread where muslim brothers on the siccness were just chit chatting. I don't know what prompted miggidy and heresy to come in here and spew this filth, but it's out of line. I'm happy, the brothers are happy - be happy for us. I know my religion, i've found it. If you've lost yours, go find it.

If you want to debate and pretend you're an expert then go to soc.religion.islam or alt.bible.errancy

www.islamic-awareness.org
www.muslim-answers.com
www.beconvinced.com
www.islam-qa.com

out

Scuzzo 03 · Apr 10, 2003

Willy Jones said:

I'll address a few points and then step away - unless I see something which I absolutely cannot resist responding to.

Point 1) Heresy and Miggidy aren't scholars from any american university or otherwise in etymology, fush-ha arabic, ancient greek and hebrew, or aramaic. They are not capable of "researching" anything.

Their research is to copy, cut, and paste from their favorite websites and pass it as their own. I find it VERY hard to especially take Heresy seriously considering his position on the christian religion as well as mine is, at the least, VERY strange. I remember several conversations on IM where you told me that if anyone was to talk shit to you at the siccness barbecue that you wouldn't hesitate to put a bullet in their forehead and send them to hell. I asked you what God would think and you responded:

"Very well done."

I'm not a saint myself but the difference is - I'm not taking the position as the shephard to the spiritually lost on the siccness (turn to me I will help you bla bla).

Point 2) You're quoting from a christian polemic attacking the variants of the Qur'anic recitations. More than likely Jochen Katz. You're parroting from his website. You do not have access to the manuscript in tashkent.

You can easily go see it, Heresy, next time you come out to camden. It's (a photocopy) 2 hours away in Columbia New York, and I have gone to see it and I can read it because I know the language. Maybe you should take flights to research what you're talking about instead of taking flights to appear on now-cancelled talk shows calling your own race a bunch of niggers and geechees to promote your death heavy metal rock album.

Now then.

Well, see, you can't because you don't speak arabic. That's like a latin american immigrant from Argentina who speaks no english criticizing Webster's Dictionary.

Why don't you just quote the websites you're plagiarizing instead of trying to make people believe you know what you're talking about.

Since we live on planet earth and not mars we, as human beings, talk to eachother. Words assimilate into different languages. English words have roots in arabic, french, latin, and german. Arabic was not the first language on earth and it won't be the last - it has spawned from and spawns words.

I don't know what point you're trying to make because the Qur'an contains words like "nasara" which comes from from "Nazareth," and I'm not interested in what points you're trying to make because you're not an expert in etymology - you've never taken one single course in it.

However, I'm not dumb and I suspect you're about to parrot "Dr." Christopher Heger's articles on the Qur'an being a syrian christian hymn or whatever - so to refute that let me just give a few links:

Credible etymology source and refuting Dr. Heger

Again, you're just rattling off red herrings - making wild accusations which you, personally, don't even understand. Needless to say, you're wrong.

Here's a link for the people reading this "debate's" benefit

This is quickly going to deteriorate into "My scholars v.s. Your Scholars" so I'll just say this. You people have rudely invaded a thread where muslim brothers on the siccness were just chit chatting. I don't know what prompted miggidy and heresy to come in here and spew this filth, but it's out of line. I'm happy, the brothers are happy - be happy for us. I know my religion, i've found it. If you've lost yours, go find it.

If you want to debate and pretend you're an expert then go to soc.religion.islam or alt.bible.errancy

www.islamic-awareness.org
www.muslim-answers.com
www.beconvinced.com
www.islam-qa.com

out

REAL TALK^ on point:dead:

miggidy · Apr 10, 2003

Willy Jones said:

Go ahead and ignore the truth. Most my words come from my head. If I quote something from a website it's because it's the truth. If I quote something from a scholar/teacher, it's because it's the truth.
I call it right down the middle and supply facts.
And you cannot argue against facts.
But go ahead, keep your eyes shut and your mind closed.

Willy Jones said:

Maybe it' because you recognize that you are a bad example for Islam....

Willy Jones said:

Maybe I should forward you the responses I've gotten from a couple of those websites and the Islamic counsel of Frisco....
I wonder if the truth would ever hummble your stone heart.

Miggidy

TRAGIC LOSSES · Apr 10, 2003

<<<<EATS A BACON AND HAM SANDWICH WHILE READING THIS CRAP.

HERESY · Apr 10, 2003

NOOOOOOO DOUGH!!!!!! ZERO!!!!!

LMAO TRAGIC.

@willy jones:

scuzzo and willy jones aren't scholars from any american university or otherwise in etymology, fush-ha arabic, ancient greek and hebrew, or aramaic. They are not capable of "researching" anything. **HOWEVER** HERESY *CAN* SPEAK AND READ HEBREW,LATIN AND GREEK AND CAN EVEN ID ARABIC WORDS. SO IF *YOU* WOULD LIKE TO CARRY ON THIS CONVO (YES THE ENTIRE CONVO) IN THE LANGUAGES THAT I DO KNOW WE CAN DO IT :classic: .

I GUESS YOU KNOW WHAT BOOKS I HAVE DOWNSTAIRS HUH? I GUESS YOU SIT WITH ME 24-7. I GUESS YOU ARE WITH ME WHEN I GO AND SPEAK WITH MY MUSLIM FRIENDS EVERYDAY AND WHEN I VISIT THEM BEFORE AND AFTER PRAYER TIME ON FRIDAYS....WOW! OMNIPRESENT.....SCUZZOS POST ARE 100% CUT AND PASTE. WHAT HAS HE DONE THAT CAME FROM HIS OWN FEEBLE IMAGINATION? WHAT?!? DROP A ONE LINER? MAKE A SMILIE?LMAO!

LMAO!!! LETS GET SEVERAL THINGS STRAIGHT.

1.I AM *NOT* A "CHRISTIAN" I HAVE *NEVER* CLAIMED TO BE A CHRISTIAN OR ONE WHO ADHERES TO CHRISTIANITY. SO YOU APPLYING THAT TO ME IS POINTLESS. NOT ONE PERSON ON THIS BOARD CAN VALIDATE YOUR CLAIM.

2.WHY WOULD I KILL SOMEONE IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF WHITE PEOPLE WHO WILL MOST LIKELY TELL ON ME? BY THE WAY NOT ONE PERSON TALKED SHIT AT THE BBQ. IT WAS ALL LOVELY.

3.UNDERSTANDING SARCASM IS NOT YOUR STRONG POINT.

4.SINCE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MY ALLEGED CHRISTIANITY WHY DONT WE DISCUSS YOUR ISLAM. WHY ARENT YOU FIGHTING FOR MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD?

5.INSTEAD OF PICKING APART THE PERSON WHY DONT YOU PICK APART THE EVIDENCE THEY SHOW.

6.*YOUR* POSTS HAVE BEEN *NOTHING*BUT CUT AND PASTE.

WHO IS TAKING THE POSITION AS THE SHEPHARD? LMAO! NOT *ONCE* HAVE I TOLD *ANY* PERSON (ONLINE OR OFFLINE) TO FOLLOW ME OR TO BELIEVE WHAT I SAY. I WILL TELL YOU TO DO A SIMPLE 3 STEP PROGRAM. THIS PROGRAM CAN BE APPLIED TO ANY SUBJECT OF INTEREST.

1.READ FOR YOURSELF
2.STUDY AND APPLY WHAT YOU HAVE READ
3.COME TO YOUR *OWN* ASSESSMENT BASED ON YOUR RESEARCH.

I HAVE STATED *MANY* TIMES THAT I COULD CARE *LESS* IF ANYONE WORSHIPS GOD OR A DOGS VOMIT. THATS ON *YOU*. IT MEANS *NOTHING* TO ME AND DOESNT MAKE OR BREAK MY LIVELIHOOD.

?!? KATZ? LMAO! IF I TOLD YOU THAT *EVERYTHING* I LEARNED ABOUT ISLAM (AND IM NOT JUST TALKING THE 5 PILLARS AND THE EASY STUFF) WAS SHOWN TO ME BY *MUSLIMS* WOULD THAT CHANGE ANYTHING? I NEVER IMPLIED THAT *I* HAD ACCESS TO THE TASHKENT. WANNA SEE WHAT A MUSLIM SAYS ABOUT THE QURAN? http://www.submission.org/quran/protect.html

ROFL!!! MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE FLIGHTS TO RESEARCH WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. *YOUR* PEOPLE HAVE DONE MORE HARM TO THE BLACK RACE THAN I COULD ***EVER** DO. IM *VOCAL*. I SPEAK MY MIND. IM NOT LIKE *YOU* WALT. I DONT HIDE BEHIND NAMES ON THE SICCNESS AND I WONT SUGAR COAT. I DONT POST UP AND FOLLOW FEMALES AROUND AND BASH THEM 24-7. I DONT WISH I HAD A PERM. IM NOT ON MEDS. IM NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THE LAW. YOU DO ALL OF THAT WALT. I SAY WHAT I SAY AND I MOVE ON. NOT *ONE* PERSON HAS LIFTED A FINGER TO HARM ME BECAUSE OF MY VIEWS. IN FACT THEY ACCEPT IT. YOU YOURSELF HAVE USED NIGGER AND SAMBO. SO WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? HERES MY 7 DAY THEORY.

1.EVERYONE ELSE IS EXPLOITING THE NIGGERS AND GEECHEES WHY CANT I?

*IF YOU ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT I SAY ABOUT BLACKS WHY DONT YOU STOP COMMITING PETTY BREAK IN/HOME INVASIONS WITH BLACKS. REAL CHOP.*

2.THE NIGGERS AND GEECHEES DISRESPECT *THEMSELVES* BY KILLING EACH OTHER AND FALLING INTO THE TRAP. STOP FEEDING INTO MASSAHS HAND.

3.I GUESS YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE I SAID BLACK PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP AND LEARN ECONOMICS. THAT BLACKS SHOULD INVEST IN GOLD INSTEAD OF WEARING IT. THAT BLACKS SHOULD LEARN ABOUT GLOBALISM. THAT BLACKS ARE NOT PREPARED FOR A ONE WORLD SYSTEM. THAT BLACKS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ROTHS,FEMA,TLC,CFR ETC ETC ETC.

4.WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING I SAID WHEN I HIT THE CENTER STAGE? HERE I WILL TELL YA. "NO I DONT HATE BLACK PEOPLE. I HATE THE THINGS WE DO" BY THE WAY THE SHOW WAS NEVER CANCELLED.

5.WHILE IM *HELPING* YOUNG BLACK MALES EVERY CHANCE I GET WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

*HIDING OUT AT KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN AVOIDING THE LAW. REAL TRUTH. REAL FACT. LETS KEEP IT BETWEEN YOU AND I.*

6.THE *ONLY* ATTENTION YOU GET IS FROM THIS SITE. THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE YOU ARE VALUED IN LIFE. YOU ARE DESPISED AT WORK,YOUR MOTHER HATES YOU,YOUR FATHER NEVER KNEW YOU,MUSLIMS DETEST YOU AND EVEN YOUR CAT HATES YOU. HELL THAT CAT PISSED ON YOUR KORG BOX. YOU'RE NOTHING MAN FACE IT. A DEPRESSED INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS TO TAKE MEDS TO KEEP HIS INSIDES FUNCTIONING. HOW MANY DAYS CAN YOU GO WITHOUT SQUIRMING OR TWITCHING LOOKING AS IF YOU'RE HAVING SEIZURES?

7.MY PLAN WORKED. PROMOTED THE ALBUM BEFORE ITS EVEN OUT. "HEY ARENT YOU THAT GUY HERESY, WHENS YOUR ALBUM BLAH BLAH BLAH". WALT HOW MANY PEOPLE HIT YOUR WEBSITE AND DOWNLOAD SONGS? I CAN POST THE STATS FOR MY SITE. HOW HAVE YOU PROMOTED YOUR ALBUM? HOW MANY PEOPLE ASK YOU TO HELP THEM WITH MUSIC? SOMEONE MUST LIKE MY WORK. I GET DOWNLOADS,EMAILS,PM'S,MESSAGES,GET CALLS ETC ETC ETC. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ADVANCE YOUR MUSIC OR LIFE? NOTHING. YOU QUIT. I MAKE THE MOST OUT OF MY CHANCES AND SHOTS. I GO AGAINST THE GRAIN. YOU...WELL.....
YOUR JUST PLAIN OLD WALT. A GROWN MAN WHO ATTEMPTS TO EMULATE A WRESTLER (SHAWN MICHAELS OF THE SICCNESS

)

HERES THE TRUTH. NO ONE CARES IF YOU LIVE. NO ONE CARES IF YOU DIE. CHEW ON THAT.PART 2 IS NEXT.

HERESY · Apr 10, 2003

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DOOOOOOUGH!!!!!! ZERO!!!

LMAO! WALT BECAUSE I DONT SPEAK ARABIC (BUT I CAN ID SOME OF THE WORDS) DOES THAT MEAN THAT *MUSLIMS* HAVE NOT SHARED CERTAIN INFO WITH ME?

READ WHAT THIS MUSLIM SAYS ABOUT THE QURAN http://www.submission.org/quran/protect.html. HE SIMPLY CONFIRMS WHAT MY MUSLIM FRIENDS HAVE TOLD ME ALL ALONG.

ACTUALLY I WAS GONNA POST MORE MUSLIM/ISLAMIC SITES.http://www.allaahuakbar.net/quran/arabic_the_language_of_the_quran.htm

http://www.quran.org/quran/

NOW IF THE QURAN IS SUPPOSED TO BE PURE ARABIC DIRECT ME TO THE VERSION THAT IS 100% ARABIC AND CONTAINS NO WORDS FROM OTHER LANGUAGES.

WALT HOW MANY LANGUAGES DO YOU SPEAK? WHAT BOOKS DO YOU HAVE IN REGARDS TO LANGUAGE,CULTURES,ASSIMILATIONS AND WORD CONTRACTIONS? WALT HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT CLASS I HAVE OR HAVE NOT TAKEN?

I ALREADY GAVE YOU A LINK TO A MUSLIM SITE ABOUT THIS.

THATS WHAT YOU MAKE IT.

I DIDNT INVADE ANYTHING. WHATS RUDE IS HOW MIGGIDY ASKED YOU A QUESTION AND YOU JUMPED DOWN HIS THROAT. THATS RUDE. WHATS RUDE IS HOW I SAID NOTHING TO YOU NOR DIRECTED ANYTHING AT YOU PERSONALY YET YOU MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO DRAG ME THROUGH THE MUD. REMEMBER THAT PM YOU RECENTLY SENT ME? WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO LIVE BY THOSE WORDS WHEN *YOU* DONT PRACTICE WHAT *YOU* PREACH? YOU KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT SO LETS KEEP THAT BETWEEN YOU AND I....

DID YOU SEE ME JUMP DOWN SCUZZOS THROAT FOR HIS INSANE ATTEMPT TO APPLY MOSAIC LAW TO CHRISTIANITY?

WHAT PROMPTS YOU TO INSULT PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID NOTHING TO YOU? IM NOT TALKING ABOUT ME EITHER.

THATS GREAT IM HAPPY FOR YOU.

I DONT ADHERE TO "RELIGION". HOW COULD I LOOSE WHAT I NEVER HAD?

BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

NOW WHEN YOU TAKE SHOTS AT ME EXPECT FOR ME TO RETURN THE FAVOR.

I THINK I NEED TO SEND YOU THE PM THAT *YOU* SENT ME. MAYBE *YOU* SHOULD READ IT AND PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH.

HAVE A GOOD DAY MUSLIM.:dead: OOPS I MEANT WIGGER :dead:

:h:

miggidy · Apr 10, 2003

****Note to self, never get on Heresy's bad side****
LOL!

Seriously though;

HERESY said:

That's what I've been telling people for the longest.
The truth is out there.
And the truth will set you free....

Any muslims here?

Sicc OG

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Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Sicc OG

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Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Sicc OG