Affirmative Action

[LMD1510]

I think affirmative action does have its place in our society today. The playing field will never be "level" because there are more contributing factors to someone's success other than race or gender.

The arguement of "economic" affirmative action is somewhat valid, but racism and sexism over hundreds of years is what has created such a desparity in economic levels between races. Not to say a black person cannot be wealthy or a white person cannot be poor, but in most instances, that is the case due to racism.

My solution before we can even discuss getting rid of affirmative action is to build some sort of consistency within our school system so that above all we can say that for the most part every child in California has received somewhat the same education and from there we can begin to "judge" our children with disregrd for race, sex, etc. But that is a very complicated thing to achieve and a very long way off.

I have seen the idea thrown is people's faces and it does create somewhat of a resentment among some whites. If a black very qualified student gets a job or into a school where affirmative action is used, even if they were the most qualified, words of them receiving their status just because of affirmative action will me mutterred at some point, and thats the sad reality.

 

[HERESY]

I wouldn't consider myself definitly against afirmative action which is why I didn't address them. I somewhat agree with it and understand there are valid points as to why it should be used but it just doesn't seem completely logical to me and there should be another method of coping with the problems affirmative action is trying to correct.

ok.

Affirmative action isn't necessarily "leveling the playing field".

My statement about leveling the playing field was in regards to RESOURCES. However, AA does take steps in "leveling the playing field" because it provides opportunities for those who would basically have no chance.

It could possibly be a step in the right direction but like I said there must be some other method to do this. It doesn't exist now but in the future it might.

If no better method exists right now why change status quo? You just lost your entire argument right there, and in a policy debate you would have lost. I'm not saying problems do not exist because they do, but you need to reference my first post in this thread for more clarity. How do you expect for those who are economicially inferior and low in numbers to compete in a society where status quo (and everything that comes along with it) is governed by white americans who control apprx 80 to 85% of this countries wealth and have a much larger population?

Maybe they need to create colleges that are more suitable to the statistical levels of minorities, if you are saying that they simply cannot achieve the equivalent of whites due to their lack of resources.

College is not the place to address the issue. The issue should be addressed in schools elementary, junior/middle and high schools. These are where the problems originate and one of the leading causes is disproportionate resources. Also, not being able to achieve may be attributed to many things that are cultural or gender based, but what I am saying is those who are currently the beneficiaries of AA do NOT have the same advantages as whites.

From personal experience, I've witnessed the majority of minorities, including blacks, who all had basically equal oppurtunities of whites

How do YOU know they had the same equal opportunities as whites? How do you know the whites were not ascribed riches at birth while the minorities were born into poverty? How do you know the differences in resources did not contribute to the minorities being from one parent households? How do you know that role strain and role conflict from being in such a situation did not hamper/hinder the parent from doing certain duties with the child? How do you know that the lack of these duties being done did not contribute to learning disabilities or limited socialization?

show an apalling lack of concern for college.

See the above.

I'm not putting down minorities considering that I am one but as long as I've been in school I've noticed minority kids get into more fights, get suspended more, cut more class, fail more classes, and care alot less than the white students.

Yet you haven't considered WHY these kids do what you claim they do, and if you HAVE considered it you would have mentioned it instead of citing numerous instances of wrongful acts by minorities. Also, how do YOU know they care a lot less than white students, and if they DO care less could this be a problem that actually comes from home? Could it be that education is not a priority in the home? Could it be that our society is still enforcing the "white is still superior" mentality thus giving white students an obvious edge and appearance of concern?

These kids that have just as equal oppurtunity as the white ones don't even use it to their advantage. Instead they become lazy or careless until it's too late for them to succeed and they regret it, if they even realize it at all.

This statement is rendered null and void when we address the differences in economics between whites and minorities. Again, The majority of African Americans are categorized as low income, and only 6% of those who are low income will earn a college degree. African Americans have the second highest drop out rate in America, and a study that compared high school dropouts to those who graduated from high school revealed that dropouts earn 10k less than graduates do. If these numbers are correct, how can black students possibly hope to achieve the “American Dream”?

 

[kon/AOV]

affirmitive action is dumb as hell best applicant get the job no if ands or buts

 

[T-Spoon]

affirmitive action is dumb as hell best applicant get the job no if ands or buts

but there was a huge fight for equality, and now that "everyones equal"

Those are all good points....50 plus odd years ago. But times have changed due in part to the proper use of Affirmative Action and nowadays it does more to harm than help (the better qualified are being overlooked).



Not that racism and sexism don't exist, but that discrimination is not as prevalent. Everybody is given a chance nowadays and that's all that you should ask of an employer.

im not trippin, im against it because hiring someone based on there race is just as wrong as not hiring them based on their race, people need to be hired for there skills and abilities

please read this and tell me that there is FAIR hiring practices in this country:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml

The other, however, suggests a black-sounding name remains an impediment to getting a job. After responding to 1,300 classified ads with dummy resumes, the authors found black-sounding names were 50 percent less likely to get a callback than white-sounding names with comparable resumes.

White names got about one callback per 10 resumes; black names got one per 15. Carries and Kristens had call-back rates of more than 13 percent, but Aisha, Keisha and Tamika got 2.2 percent, 3.8 percent and 5.4 percent, respectively. And having a higher quality resume, featuring more skills and experience, made a white-sounding name 30 percent more likely to elicit a callback, but only 9 percent more likely for black-sounding names.

if minorities cant even get their feet in the door, how tha hell do u think we can EQUALLY get the job?

i'm FOR affirmative action, and i've experienced unfair hiring practices in my lifetime, along with, i'm sure, alot of minorities on this site. fold.

 

[PGBD]

please read this and tell me that there is FAIR hiring practices in this country:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml

There are fair hiring practices in this country.

 

[TROLL]

^^^
racist

I never said my statement wasn't racist

http://www.siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=204151&page=4&highlight=racist

Mexicans cant rap

your comments carry the weight that of a stank ass fart thats floating in the coattails of a fat woman...except the fart served a purpose..

 

[PGBD]

your comments carry the weight that of a stank ass fart thats floating in the coattails of a fat woman...except the fart served a purpose..

Riiiight. Keep up the good work Trolly. Your attempts to turn everyone against me and get me banned just might pay off.

Oh, and some Mexicans can rap (see Mr. Capone E post and add the South Park Mexicans to the list)

 

[T-Spoon]

There are fair hiring practices in this country.

i shoulda worded it another way, but u kno wut i mean. i didn't say there isnt ANY fair hiring practices in this country.

but how come ur piccin my question apart, but not the content?

Not that racism and sexism don't exist

ur right about that

but that discrimination is not as prevalent. Everybody is given a chance nowadays and that's all that you should ask of an employer.

well.............how can we "ask" an employer, if:

The other, however, suggests a black-sounding name remains an impediment to getting a job. After responding to 1,300 classified ads with dummy resumes, the authors found black-sounding names were 50 percent less likely to get a callback than white-sounding names with comparable resumes.

White names got about one callback per 10 resumes; black names got one per 15. Carries and Kristens had call-back rates of more than 13 percent, but Aisha, Keisha and Tamika got 2.2 percent, 3.8 percent and 5.4 percent, respectively. And having a higher quality resume, featuring more skills and experience, made a white-sounding name 30 percent more likely to elicit a callback, but only 9 percent more likely for black-sounding names.

please, no name callin, no steerin off topic, jus respond INTELLIGENTLY to my question. thank you.

fold.

 

[PGBD]

First off, I didn't read the article. I just responded to piss some of you off. Secondly, good thing you can file lawsuits.

unfold.

 

[T-Spoon]

Secondly, good thing you can file lawsuits.

unfold.

bad thing it would be hard to prove. thank god for affirmative action. fold.

 

[what it thizz]

It was passed with good intentions, but shit like that backfires real easily.
Just like the 3 strikes law in california

 

[TROLL]

Riiiight. Keep up the good work Trolly. Your attempts to turn everyone against me and get me banned just might pay off.

im not trying to get u banned nor turn anybody against u.. im speaking for me not anybody else..

Oh, and some Mexicans can rap (see Mr. Capone E post and add the South Park Mexicans to the list)

Mr. Ca-phony isnt mexican but ok.. :cheeky:

 

[PGBD]

Mr. Ca-phony isnt mexican but ok.. :cheeky:

Find the thread about this guy, read my post and figure out what I'm saying.

By the way Trolly, I'm gonna start getting serious with you on some of these other matters.

 

[TROLL]

empty threats.. u had plenty a chance and even had a thread designated for such after you yourself issued the challenge then backed down..

but its all good..

 

[PGBD]

empty threats.. u had plenty a chance and even had a thread designated for such after you yourself issued the challenge then backed down..

but its all good..

I know. I enjoy playing with you though Troll.

 

[Dirty Shoez]

In school, as far as grant and scholarship money goes...I love it. In the workplace, it's all bad.

 

[650Ubeezy]

Heresy, I live in San Mateo. I've been speaking generally. I don't know if you know this area. In recent years, the whites at san mateo high school have become although slightly, the minority. Ironically, alot of the minorities are just as well off as the whites. Don't tell me that the kid with the girbauds and bapes is from a low income family just because he's african american and therefore is deserving of the policy of AA? I'm speaking based on experience and observation. Not based on the countries statistics. I'm proving that there are major flaws with affirmative action and showing the instances in which it is ineffective.

Also you definitly mentioned something true when you said that education may not be a high priority in the home of a minority.

 

[HERESY]

Heresy, I live in San Mateo. I've been speaking generally.

If you live in san mateo and thats what you want to base your argument on great, but when you make generalizations people such as myself will call you on it.

don't know if you know this area.

I live in Vallejo, and while i have heard of san mateo and have conducted business in the area, I couldn't care less of it. I feel that way about the majority of this country, so you have no need to be alarmed.

the whites at san mateo high school have become although slightly, the minority.

And this is due to what? Whites LEAVING or more minorities coming in?

Ironically, alot of the minorities are just as well off as the whites.

You base this on what? What proof do you have to validate your claims that a lot of the minorities are as well off as the whites?

Don't tell me that the kid with the girbauds and bapes is from a low income family just because he's african american and therefore is deserving of the policy of AA?

First off, the way you worded this is poorly constructed, and I can't make heads or tails of what it is you are trying to convey. Second of all, do you know how the kid with girbauds and bapes came across them? Finally, your critical thinking skills must be equivalent to that of a retarded child that has been brain dead or comatose for the last twenty something years. Where in my statements/posts have I implied someone is from a low income family just because they are African American? In addition, I would like for you to quote me and list the criteria I suggested one should meet in order to recieve benefits derived from AA. After you fail to do so I want you lay to off the fallicies and psuedo-rhetorical questions and STICK TO THE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN ASKED OF YOU (WHICH YOU HAVE AVOIDED SEVERAL TIMES NOW.)

I'm speaking based on experience and observation.

An experience and observation based on NO qualitative or quantitative research, limited to your neck of the woods, yet in your eyes, applicable to all who may benefit from AA....

Not based on the countries statistics.

This is quite obvious.

I'm proving that there are major flaws with affirmative action and showing the instances in which it is ineffective.

You have done NOTHING. You have admitted that you are generally speaking, have a limited perspective based on what you claim to see in two San Mateo schools, and you have admitted that your position is not validated by this countries statistics. Please, show me how you have proven something, because all I presently read from you is nonsensicality.

Also you definitly mentioned something true when you said that education may not be a high priority in the home of a minority.

Keep your patronization and answer the questions posed to you.

How do you expect for those who are economicially inferior and low in numbers to compete in a society where status quo (and everything that comes along with it) is governed by white americans who control apprx 80 to 85% of this countries wealth and have a much larger population?

How do YOU know they had the same equal opportunities as whites? How do you know the whites were not ascribed riches at birth while the minorities were born into poverty? How do you know the differences in resources did not contribute to the minorities being from one parent households? How do you know that role strain and role conflict from being in such a situation did not hamper/hinder the parent from doing certain duties with the child? How do you know that the lack of these duties being done did not contribute to learning disabilities or limited socialization?

Also, how do YOU know they care a lot less than white students, and if they DO care less could this be a problem that actually comes from home? Could it be that education is not a priority in the home? Could it be that our society is still enforcing the "white is still superior" mentality thus giving white students an obvious edge and appearance of concern?

Again, The majority of African Americans are categorized as low income, and only 6% of those who are low income will earn a college degree. African Americans have the second highest drop out rate in America, and a study that compared high school dropouts to those who graduated from high school revealed that dropouts earn 10k less than graduates do. If these numbers are correct, how can black students possibly hope to achieve the “American Dream”?

 

[Ethereal]

To all those who believe that we should draw the line with the most qualified person getting the job:

Is it logical to believe that in the absence of Afirmative Action, that all business executives will hold no bias, no racial prejudice and willingly hire minorities?

It is not only the openly racist bigots that are of concern here. We know what they're about. But your average store manager who will shake your hand and smile, regardless of what color you are. Rather than hire with prejudice, he will hire with preference, which is just as negativley effective. For instance, you have 3 people on an interview, black, brown and white. The exec. will not eliminate the brown and the black, thereby taking the white. He will look directly to the white and not think twice.

Think about it. This claim, although seemingly far reaching, is a valid one.

 

[650Ubeezy]

Ok I don't have the energy to reply to every single question you ask. If this was a conversation it would be a different story. But this is getting ridiculous. I'm not spending my life defending anti affirmative action. It was a fucking topic that I was GIVEN to do a debate on. I was also required to do the con side. I'm not losing sleep over affirmative action nor continuously doing research on this topic. I researched it for about 2 hours in total and that was good enough for me to do my assignment. And I'm done.