A world without God, a World without doubt....

[naner12]

personally i think if at the beginning no religion was ever created this world would be a much better place. the fact that it was created though is a problem. if you were to just suddenly take away religion now you would have a lot of people not knowing what to do. for some people religion/church/god is what makes them get up in the morning. if you take that away from them who knows what might happen to that person. that still doesn't take away from the fact of how much i hate religion. if there really is a god and he really does stand for what they say he stands for then i seriously doubt he'd want people killing each other over him.

"of those who kiss stones and praise on a carpet, those who sit home and sell books by the market .. need to chill and get they mind revived, for years religion did nothing but divide" - Killah Priest

 

[2-0-Sixx]

YOU STRESSED, "I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it or simply judge me by my posts on this site."

THAT'S THE WORST ADVICE I EVA HEARD. I HATE ASSUMIN' AND I HATE WHEN OTHAS ASSUME SHIT ABOUT ME BASED ON WHAT THEY PERCEPTION DICTATES. YOU MUST THRIVE OFF THAT SHIT OR SAMETHIN'. I WOULDN'T WANT YOU TO PASS JUDgEMENT ON ME, SO WHY WOULD YOU WANT ME TO PASS JUDgEMENT ON YOU?

lol, WTF else you want me to say man? Either you A). Take my word that I am a moral person or B). You don’t take my word. Listen, me being a good person really is irrelevant; there are other ways to get my point across. Do you know of anyone who does not believe in god or who is not religious and is a moral person?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I really don’t even know what this means (concept of god) other than people who believe in a higher power."

THAT'S WHY I'M HERE TO LACE YOU.

And I’m here to inform you that religion has nothing to do with morals.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Listen, I was never taught any religion or anything about any god."
UNDA-STOOD, BUT THAT DON'T MEAN YOU ARE NOT INDIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THE MORAL STANDARDS OF SCRIPTURE.

Ok, I think you should explain to me what these moral standards are to make sure we are on the same page, because your standards of morals could be completely different than mine.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I disagree."

WHY?

I already explained to you. I don’t think religion or god has anything to do with morals.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "My father never taught me any morals; he led by example; he was an honest man, worked hard and cared for his family. That’s it."

SEE, YOU'RE CONTRADICTIN' YOURSELF IN THAT STATEMENT. YOUR FATHER ACTUALLY TAUgHT YOU MORALS BY EXAMPLE. THAT'S HOW YOU LEARN. LOOK HOW QUIK YOU WERE TO POINT OUT WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM EXAMPLE. NOW, THE QUESTION IS, WHERE DID YOUR FATHER LEARN THOSE MORALS? YOU CAN ARgUE THAT IT'S NATURE, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT YOU CAN DISPROVE THE gUIDELINES BY WHICH THOSE MORALS gO BY.

lol. My father learned these morals by being human. Working hard, caring for your family and being honest has NOTHING to do with any religion. How do you imagine the world was before your religion? Do you think man was running around killing people? As I explained to our hindu friend; man is a social creature. It is natural for us to have emotions and to care for others. This has been true since the time of man, long before any religion came into play.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "This is not some new radical ideology that only came in existence after Jesus; this is simple human nature. As social animals, this is how we naturally behave…until of course we are placed into unnatural environments and are raised to live unmorally."

SO THE QUESTION NOW BECOMES, WHAT IS MORAL AND WHAT IS INMORAL? WHAT DICTATES THAT AND HOW DO WE CALIBRATE THAT?

It depends on society and the individual. As you know, Christians in one country might find a certain behavior completely fine and moral while Christians in another country might find this same behavior immoral.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I agree we are influenced by our environment; however “scriptures” had nothing to do with my life. As I stated above; having good morals has nothing to do with any religion and has existed long before any religion."

SHOW ME THE PROOF.

I cannot show you proof for the same reasons you cannot show me proof that religion has something to do with morality.

Is it only such emotions that set us apart? What about the intelligence it took for you to consider what I wrote and then write your response? You are saying guilt separates humans from animals, but this is not the root characteristic. The question is, why do we feel guilty? If animals do not have this it is because they lack the intellectual capacity. We on the other hand do have that capacity, obviously.

I never said emotion is the only thing that sets us apart; obviously it’s our intelligence.

The reason we feel guilt or any other emotion is because each emotion is specialized for solving a different adaptive problem that arose during our evolutionary history. Human cooperation, aggression, sexual attraction, parental love, friendship, romantic love, jealousy, aggression, disgust, fear, predator avoidance, family relations etc all serve specific purposes. For example, we love our family because, as I stated earlier, humans rely on each other for survival. Love or a special bond between parents and children and family was absolutely necessary in early man. Fear obviously is to avoid being hunted or injured. All of these emotions served specific purposes which is why they are still present today.

Read about evolution, specifically Evolutionary Psychology.

So I would say that these emotions are a result of a higher grade of intelligence.

If you understood our history and the process of human development you would not hold this view.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

The reason we feel guilt or any other emotion is because each emotion is specialized for solving a different adaptive problem that arose during our evolutionary history. Human cooperation, aggression, sexual attraction, parental love, friendship, romantic love, jealousy, aggression, disgust, fear, predator avoidance, family relations etc all serve specific purposes. For example, we love our family because, as I stated earlier, humans rely on each other for survival. Love or a special bond between parents and children and family was absolutely necessary in early man. Fear obviously is to avoid being hunted or injured. All of these emotions served specific purposes which is why they are still present today.

Read about evolution, specifically Evolutionary Psychology.

I am not so much concerned with the emotions specifically. They are just symptoms of a greater intelligence. I am more concerned with the intelligence itself. And my question is how can intelligence evolve from non-intelligence? I can't see the reason in accepting that it does. It would be purely blind faith for me to. Magical bunny rabbits appearing out of emtpy top hats. As a child this may have been believable, but now I understand that something never comes from nothing (assuming that this 'something' comes at all).

If you understood our history and the process of human development you would not hold this view.

I think you misunderstood when I said "higher grade of intelligence". I was simply referring to human intelligence in comparison to animal intelligence. I think you were thinking I was herein implying God. But I could be wrong...

Whatever human gained knowledge I study will be incomplete. At some point we will have begun at a 'nothing'. At some point our knolwedge is limited. I am wondering which premise is more logical: something coming from something, or something coming from nothing. This is more or less a philosophical argument.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

*accidental repeated post*

 

[L Mac-a-docious]

Religion=morals conversation=boo boo. There are plenty of religious people in jail who are killers.

 

[HERESY]

Some interesting views here....I thank those who have read and replied to this post.

For those who are basically saying "religion has nothing to do with morals" I have a couple of questions.


1. If that is true why do you say people use religion as a crutch?


2. If that is true why do people not do XY and Z because of their "god" or religion?


carry on people.


:hgk:

 

[2-0-Sixx]

2. If that is true why do people not do XY and Z because of their "god" or religion?

I think this is a perfect example of how religion has nothing to do with morality. Their “holy scriptures” tells them to do AB and C, and yet they don’t do it anyways. Take Christianity for example. In America at least 90% of the (Christian) population believes divorce is perfectly fine and the churches in America agree and yet churches in other countries consider this unmoral. Why is that? Is it because god teaches us morals or is it society that creates the definition of morality?

For those who are basically saying "religion has nothing to do with morals" I have a couple of questions.
1. If that is true why do you say people use religion as a crutch?

People use religion as a crutch because it is the easy way out. When shit gets bad religion gives one hope. As Karl Marx put it;

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.​

Religion is basically telling people that your suffering here on earth doesn’t really matter because you will find true happiness in the next life.

Thus, it is not the existence of God per se which is the problem for us, but the notion that religion is the tool that is used by the oppressors which allows them to deny to the workers the right to happiness and freedom in the here and now; this will be achieved in the next life. Marx recognises the power of the religious imperative – it does allow people a means of escape from their pain and suffering – but religion does not begin to address the fundamental cause of pain and suffering [capitalist exploitation].

 

[L Mac-a-docious]

@^^^So in esence what he is saying is that religion is telling people to "give up on the now." I definitely see that. Religion gives a way for the establishment to make people content with their shitty lives, even if they could do something to change them...pretty profound.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Precisely

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

"Give up on the now"...

Actually, no. Maybe this is how it appears to yall who are irreligious. Religion very much focuses on the now. What religion does tell us is to give up the materialistic nonsense that we generally engage ourselves in and let God be the center of all activity. This is what yall interpret as "giving up on the now". Renunciation does not mean we give up on the now, it means our focus changes. Your day is our night.

"What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage." -Bg. 2.69

 

[DubbC415]

im sure there was just as much violence in the world before religion

just needed to say that religion has been around since people have been around, or close to it.

 

[EDJ]

SYDAL,

YOU STRESSED, "I'm living proof that morals have nothing to do with religion. My parents never put any religion into my brain growing up, and I developed my own morals as I grew. Yea, I was baptised at birth, but I never heard my parents mention church or anything like it growing up."

I UNDA-STAND WHAT YOU SAYIN', BUT YOU AIN'T HEARIN' WHAT I'M SAYIN'. DIRECTLY, YOU PROBABLY WEREN'T DISCIPLINED BY YOUR PARENTS OR gIVEN LESSONS ON MORALITY, BUT WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MORALITY CAN BE TRACED BAK TO BIBLICAL CONCEPTS THAT HAVE AFFECTED MANKIND THRU AgES. THE SOCIETY YOU LIVE IN AND THE ONE BEFORE THAT ARE EXAMPLES OF SUCH. THE INFLUENCE IS SO gREAT, WE DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, BUT LIVE BY SOME OF THOSE STANDARDS LIKE IT'S XND NATURE.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I decided to believe in Catholicism AFTER I was already a grown man, but my morals were already set."

CATHOLICISM CAN'T TEACH YOU MORALS TO BEgIN WITH. WHAT YOU KNEW WAS THE INFLUENCE THE SCRIPTURES HAVE HAD ON SOCIETY FROM A MORAL VIEWPOINT.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Yes, I do believe my parents passed me the general morals that I think most parents try to, but the whole thing was done by myself, and my morals are different than those of my parents."

AND WHERE DO YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS gOT THEM MORALS OR gUIDELINES FROM? AND YOU LIKE N-E OTHA MAN, THAT gROWS UP AND gETS OLD, FOUND YOUR NICHE AND PERCEPTION OF WHAT MORALITY BEST SUITES YOU PERSONALLY.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "So, with that said, I think it is safe to say that religion has nothing to do with morals."

ON THE CONTRARY, IT'S NOT SAFE TO MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION BASED ON TRACIN' WHERE PEOPLE gET THEY MORALS FROM. YOU LABEL THE "SCRIPTURES" AS "RELIgION" AND THAT'S WHERE YOU MAKE THE gENERALIZATION AND MISTAKE.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "What has to do with morals, is ones mindstate, and whether or not a person has a good head on his/her shoulders."

THAT'S THE THANg, EVERYBODY'S PERCEPTION IS DIFFERENT OF WHAT IS gOOD AND BAD. EVERYBODY'S PERCEPTION OF WHAT A "gOOD HEAD ON THE SHOULDERS" DIFFERS. WITH OUT gUIDELINES FOR MORALITY, WE WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS.

2-0-SIXX,

YOU STRESSED, "lol, WTF else you want me to say man? Either you A). Take my word that I am a moral person or B). You don’t take my word."

FOR ARgUMENT SAKE, LET'S JUST SAY YOU ARE A LAW-ABIDIN' CITIZEN WITH A MORALS THAT ADHERE TO SCRIPTURE.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Listen, me being a good person really is irrelevant; there are other ways to get my point across. Do you know of anyone who does not believe in god or who is not religious and is a moral person?"

I KNOW A BUNCH OF FOO'S THAT ARE CONFUSED ABOUT RELIgION OR THEY FAITH BUT THERE MORAL STANDARDS REFLECT THOSE OF BIBLICAL gUIDELINES.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "And I’m here to inform you that religion has nothing to do with morals."

IN THE gENERALIZED PERCEPTION, MAYBE NOT, BUT AS A HISTORICAL FIgURE, SCRIPTURE WAS USED AS gUIDELINES FOR MORALITY THRU-OUT MANKIND. THINK ABOUT ALL THE SOCIETIES THAT UPHELD THE BIBLE AS THEIR AUTHORITY AND THE INFLUENCES ON THEM.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Ok, I think you should explain to me what these moral standards are to make sure we are on the same page, because your standards of morals could be completely different than mine."

ALRIgHT, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I already explained to you. I don’t think religion or god has anything to do with morals."

AND I ALREADY gOT THAT. BUT WHY? YOU RUNNIN' AROUND IN CIRCLES.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "lol. My father learned these morals by being human."

SO WHAT IS BEIN' HUMAN?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "How do you imagine the world was before your religion?"

MY RELIgION? "I" DON'T HAVE A RELIgION. I SEEK TRUTH, AND BELIEVE WHAT SCRIPTURE STRESSES. BUT I DON'T LIVE BY OR ADHERE TO IT.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Do you think man was running around killing people?"

I BELIEVE IN THE NATURE OF THE BEAST. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE MAN WAS gIVEN A CONSCIENCE FOR A REASON. SO WITH THAT BEIN' SAID, IT DEPENDED ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "As I explained to our hindu friend; man is a social creature. It is natural for us to have emotions and to care for others. This has been true since the time of man, long before any religion came into play."

SO FOR ARgUMENT'S SAKE, LETS SAY MAN WAS HERE WITH NO DIRECTION AS WHAT TO BELIEVE(RELIgION WISE). HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN OUR NEED FOR SPIRITUALITY AND HOW DID MAN LIVE WITHOUT RELIgION BUT WITH A NATURAL NEED FOR SPIRITUALITY?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "It depends on society and the individual. As you know, Christians in one country might find a certain behavior completely fine and moral while Christians in another country might find this same behavior immoral."

SO IF THESE SAME INDIVIDUALS ADHERE TO THE SAME BASIC gUIDELINES FOR THEY MORALITY(SUPPOSEDLY SCRIPTURE), WHERE DO THEY MORALS CHANgE?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I cannot show you proof for the same reasons you cannot show me proof that religion has something to do with morality"

THE BIBLE ITSELF IS THE PROOF. IT HAS HISTORICAL PROOF OF LACIN' SOCIETIES. LOOK AT HOW THE LAWS WORK. WHERE DO THEY gET THEIR gUIDELINES?

 

[2-0-Sixx]

2-0-SIXX,


THEN YOU STRESSED, "And I’m here to inform you that religion has nothing to do with morals."

IN THE gENERALIZED PERCEPTION, MAYBE NOT, BUT AS A HISTORICAL FIgURE, SCRIPTURE WAS USED AS gUIDELINES FOR MORALITY THRU-OUT MANKIND. THINK ABOUT ALL THE SOCIETIES THAT UPHELD THE BIBLE AS THEIR AUTHORITY AND THE INFLUENCES ON THEM.

What was life like before your god?

ALRIgHT, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

Yes I am. A few of them are common sense (thou shall not kill, steal, and adultery) the rest are ridiculous such as forbidding any other gods, speaking the lord’s name in vain etc.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I already explained to you. I don’t think religion or god has anything to do with morals."

AND I ALREADY gOT THAT. BUT WHY? YOU RUNNIN' AROUND IN CIRCLES.

I'm not running in circles, I already explained it to you. Look back page 3. It has to do with human emotion. Here...

The reason we feel guilt or any other emotion is because each emotion is specialized for solving a different adaptive problem that arose during our evolutionary history. Human cooperation, aggression, sexual attraction, parental love, friendship, romantic love, jealousy, aggression, disgust, fear, predator avoidance, family relations etc all serve specific purposes. For example, we love our family because, as I stated earlier, humans rely on each other for survival. Love or a special bond between parents and children and family was absolutely necessary in early man. Fear obviously is to avoid being hunted or injured. All of these emotions served specific purposes which is why they are still present today.

Read about evolution, specifically Evolutionary Psychology.

Human emotion is why we have morality.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "lol. My father learned these morals by being human."

SO WHAT IS BEIN' HUMAN?

A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "How do you imagine the world was before your religion?"

MY RELIgION? "I" DON'T HAVE A RELIgION. I SEEK TRUTH, AND BELIEVE WHAT SCRIPTURE STRESSES. BUT I DON'T LIVE BY OR ADHERE TO IT.

Ok, how was it before your prophet came to this earth?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Do you think man was running around killing people?"

I BELIEVE IN THE NATURE OF THE BEAST. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE MAN WAS gIVEN A CONSCIENCE FOR A REASON. SO WITH THAT BEIN' SAID, IT DEPENDED ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

666. So when was man "given" a conscience?

THEN YOU STRESSED, "As I explained to our hindu friend; man is a social creature. It is natural for us to have emotions and to care for others. This has been true since the time of man, long before any religion came into play."

SO FOR ARgUMENT'S SAKE, LETS SAY MAN WAS HERE WITH NO DIRECTION AS WHAT TO BELIEVE(RELIgION WISE). HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN OUR NEED FOR SPIRITUALITY AND HOW DID MAN LIVE WITHOUT RELIgION BUT WITH A NATURAL NEED FOR SPIRITUALITY?

See HERESY's thread "questions for atheists"

THEN YOU STRESSED, "It depends on society and the individual. As you know, Christians in one country might find a certain behavior completely fine and moral while Christians in another country might find this same behavior immoral."

SO IF THESE SAME INDIVIDUALS ADHERE TO THE SAME BASIC gUIDELINES FOR THEY MORALITY(SUPPOSEDLY SCRIPTURE), WHERE DO THEY MORALS CHANgE?

Where or why? Morals change as society changes as I explained. In country A they may believe divorce is acceptable in country B it may not be. Both country A and B supposedly have the "same basic guidelines for their morality" - the bible. Obviously there must be something else involved then just this little book.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "I cannot show you proof for the same reasons you cannot show me proof that religion has something to do with morality"

THE BIBLE ITSELF IS THE PROOF. IT HAS HISTORICAL PROOF OF LACIN' SOCIETIES. LOOK AT HOW THE LAWS WORK. WHERE DO THEY gET THEIR gUIDELINES?

[/quote]

Oh yes...the bible itself is proof, good argument. Listen, I'm not arguing whether or not religion has affected the laws of certain societies - this is obvious, the question was whether or not religion is the base of morality. Or in other words, without religion would there be no morality.

 

[L Mac-a-docious]

Yo 2-0-Sixx...you need to stress the scriptures, you heathen.

 

[attay]

The reason why religion and spirituality came into existence and became so widespread can be explained in terms of the increase in awareness and intelligence of human beings and, more precisely, the need to explain things. In fact, religion was probably an evolutive necessity in a certain phase of development. Permanent religions did not emerge until the ability to write was developed (and they have, gradually, in the course of time, changed and mixed with each other)

Because there was no actual science, and explanations for different phenomena were unknown, religions, myths, spirits and gods were made up to explain things. ("Why does lightning strike?" etc..)

Somewhere along the road, ethical guidelines were attached to religions.

There are no "sound" or "rational" grounds for religions. Understanding and caring about life and the world or "good" behavior do not require imaginary fairy-tale creatures.

 

[JLMACN]

How do you explain people like me? I’m probably the most hardcore atheist on this site, and yet I’m constantly debating, trying to fight for peace and equality. Why am I not lost, running around punching people in the face?

my friend....you are punchin people and kicking them around...just not physically.....you are doin it verbally...
.......

your words alone "if you were in the right power"....would start a war.......so your theory about Wars have a huge impact on war...is wrong to me...

you have to go to the ROOT of all THAT......it is said in the name of "god"....but in all actually...its the leader, king, or president at that time wanting to expand their EMPIRE!!....Religion doesnt start wars....its just a "sound" excuse to fight...its the greediness in people that start wars...
...........

......i truelly agree with EDJ...about God wanting it to be a ONE religion.....but overtime...several different men...in history.....took THEIR methods of worshiping god...and said "Listen to me, i know the right way"....

and now we have different RELIGIONS.....Christianity..one of the biggest of them all....not only is Christianity a religion....now there are Denominations.......
Meaning...all different people (who think they are right) in how they worship God.....see what im getting at?.....Men take things ...and want to do it their own way.....that STARTS WARRRRRRRRRRR......

.....2-0-sixx....there is a god...i assure you that..

5000

 

[2-0-Sixx]

your words alone "if you were in the right power"....would start a war.......so your theory about Wars have a huge impact on war...is wrong to me...

I'm sorry comrade but I do not follow. Can you please elaborate?

you have to go to the ROOT of all THAT......it is said in the name of "god"....but in all actually...its the leader, king, or president at that time wanting to expand their EMPIRE!!....Religion doesnt start wars....its just a "sound" excuse to fight...its the greediness in people that start wars...
...........

But religion has been USED for reasons for war, have they not?

.....2-0-sixx....there is a god...i assure you that..[/quote[

5000

You can assure me all you want but that does not mean a damn thing to me. If I assure I can float and breathe fire would it mean anything to you?

2004

 

[MizeryU]

^206
i've seen god a few times n it was a great feeling
i wonder what will happen to you WHEN you see him
i only hope you dont GO FUCKING NUTS since you dont even believe in him

 

[L Mac-a-docious]

^206
i've seen god a few times n it was a great feeling
i wonder what will happen to you WHEN you see him
i only hope you dont GO FUCKING NUTS since you dont even believe in him

Yeah, that dude on the corner of 24th and Valencia who calls himself god...he's pretty funny...I don't know about any great feeling or anything though.

 

[Ghostly]

if there was no god or religion..It wouldnt completly get rid of violence,violence is a natural instinct u just have to have control and common since along with it<---if u have that in your head then thats what it would feel like too you if there was no religion or god in the world, it would make people were they dont take there lives for granted and do dumb shit like 9/11 or terrorism (religions fault)..resulting in making this world a better place...but really who gives a shit cause it aint never gonna happen