FOR THE RAPPERS OR IF YOU RECORD PEOPLE..

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Sydal

Sicc OG
Apr 25, 2002
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#21
Heresy...in my opinion it isn't necessary. Like I said, everybody has their own style..but if you know how to work with what you've got, it's not necessary. Yes, different songs call for a different sound...which can be achieved in a variety of ways. If that's what you like to do, by all means have at it. Is it NECESSARY though? No. Preferred maybe, but not necessary.

I personally like to comp vocals and have one lead.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
113
www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#24
Heresy...in my opinion it isn't necessary. Like I said, everybody has their own style..but if you know how to work with what you've got, it's not necessary. Yes, different songs call for a different sound...which can be achieved in a variety of ways. If that's what you like to do, by all means have at it. Is it NECESSARY though? No. Preferred maybe, but not necessary.

I personally like to comp vocals and have one lead.
Pimpin, in some cases, it is NECESSARY and has absolutely nothing to do with knowing how to work with what you have but is determined by what the producer or artist envisions. Different songs require different things, but there is a major difference between two lead vocals and doing what the song calls for as opposed to one lead vocal with a delay to fatten it up (10-29 ms for those who don't know) or a doubler plugin on the track.
 
Oct 8, 2002
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www.408inc.com
#26
Heresy...in my opinion it isn't necessary. Like I said, everybody has their own style..but if you know how to work with what you've got, it's not necessary. Yes, different songs call for a different sound...which can be achieved in a variety of ways. If that's what you like to do, by all means have at it. Is it NECESSARY though? No. Preferred maybe, but not necessary.

I personally like to comp vocals and have one lead.
you should stay being the rapper instead of the engineer haha
 

Sydal

Sicc OG
Apr 25, 2002
7,232
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www.idealsentertainment.com
#27
you should stay being the rapper instead of the engineer haha
Everybody that I've recorded has been more than happy with the way their shit sounds.

Like I said, my opinion...different strokes. Now when it comes to R&B songs, I record MANY vocal tracks and go from there. But when I'm dealing with rap, to me, it's not necessary...it's all in the taste and how one mixes.

I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong...I'm just saying how I personally do shit.

In any case, good shit heresy.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
113
www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#28
Everybody that I've recorded has been more than happy with the way their shit sounds.

Like I said, my opinion...different strokes. Now when it comes to R&B songs, I record MANY vocal tracks and go from there. But when I'm dealing with rap, to me, it's not necessary...it's all in the taste and how one mixes.

I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong...I'm just saying how I personally do shit.

In any case, good shit heresy.
Cuzzo, I don't think you get what I'm saying.
 
Oct 8, 2002
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www.408inc.com
#29
It also depend what gear u got. I know that our dude loves many tracks cuz he uses all hardware and very lil computer effects. So he likes to fuck with asmany tracks as he can to play around with. So It does depend on the person but to say its not necessary 2 do it the way others do is wrong. You should say this is the way i do it and my clients love it. To each its own
 

Sydal

Sicc OG
Apr 25, 2002
7,232
170
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www.idealsentertainment.com
#30
So It does depend on the person but to say its not necessary 2 do it the way others do is wrong. You should say this is the way i do it and my clients love it. To each its own
LMAO! That's what I've BEEN saying. Unnecessary means it doesn't HAVE TO BE DONE! It's just like my way is not NECESSARY! That's what I do, but it doesn't mean other folks have to do it to make their shit sound the same as mine.

Unnecessary means it's not ESSENTIAL! It's like, say, so and so punch records...I don't. That's the way they do it, but it isn't necessary for me in order to get that perfect sound on a verse...feel me?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
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113
www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#33
Real life scenario. You're working on a rap track that has a really strong concept and the concept involves things in pairs. There are two types of kick drums, the snare is layered with two snares, two hi hats, two different keyboard parts, etc. There is only two verse, only two hooks, and when the artist rapped it to you every second bar was a word specifically taken from the previous bar.You have doubled up parts like two different types of guitar tracks that are panned opposite of each other in the stereo field. One guitar was recorded with a microphone and has a certain pickup and panned to the left. The guitar panned to the right was recorded direct and bussed to an amp modeling plugin. Both guitars sound different, because they are different, and there are slight variations and little nuances between the two tracks. The one on the left may have line noise or even noise from the fingers, and the one on the right may stand out because of certain plucks. The rapper is spitting moreso to the guitar rhytm parts than anything else and it sounds good so its time to record.

Now remember, your job as engineer is to make sure the vision or concept of the artist or producer is realized but how do you do it?

A.) 1 main, 1 stress, and 1 adlib track?

B.) 1 main track and 2 adlib tracks accenting the nuances and slight differences in guitar parts?

C.) 2 main tracks accenting the nuances and slight differences in guitar parts?

D.) 1 main track with a delay, chorus or doubling plugin to make it sound like two and different eq settings for the doubled parts if the doubling plugin allows it?
 

Sydal

Sicc OG
Apr 25, 2002
7,232
170
63
42
www.idealsentertainment.com
#35
Real life scenario. You're working on a rap track that has a really strong concept and the concept involves things in pairs. There are two types of kick drums, the snare is layered with two snares, two hi hats, two different keyboard parts, etc. There is only two verse, only two hooks, and when the artist rapped it to you every second bar was a word specifically taken from the previous bar.You have doubled up parts like two different types of guitar tracks that are panned opposite of each other in the stereo field. One guitar was recorded with a microphone and has a certain pickup and panned to the left. The guitar panned to the right was recorded direct and bussed to an amp modeling plugin. Both guitars sound different, because they are different, and there are slight variations and little nuances between the two tracks. The one on the left may have line noise or even noise from the fingers, and the one on the right may stand out because of certain plucks. The rapper is spitting moreso to the guitar rhytm parts than anything else and it sounds good so its time to record.

Now remember, your job as engineer is to make sure the vision or concept of the artist or producer is realized but how do you do it?

A.) 1 main, 1 stress, and 1 adlib track?

B.) 1 main track and 2 adlib tracks accenting the nuances and slight differences in guitar parts?

C.) 2 main tracks accenting the nuances and slight differences in guitar parts?

D.) 1 main track with a delay, chorus or doubling plugin to make it sound like two and different eq settings for the doubled parts if the doubling plugin allows it?
First and foremost, I'm going to have the artist spit a main, a stress, and an adlib. If it comes out sounding ok, but sounds like it needs more...I will have them add a second main to see if it thickens the vocals up any. Since I'm not going to be mixing the song RIGHT THEN AND THERE, I will save it (using option C), and work with it.

Now, I would make my decision based on how the song sounds when I mix it down. If I have 2 vocal tracks, each slightly panned to the right and left, and it sounds too busy...I'm going to try centering each track and lowering the second...and see how that sounds. If it sounds shitty, I'll mute the second...and if that sounds better, I'll delete it altogether.

There are too many things to take into consideration before I can REALLY answer this question. Does the rappers voice sound like MINE? Or does it sound like Too Short? 'Cause if the dude has that deep ass Sydal type voice, doubling it will probably sound like shit...because my voice is thick as fuck as it is. BUT, if the artist has a high pitch and his voice naturally comes out thin, something has to be done to it in order for the vocal to be up there with the rest of the track.

It also depends on what type of mic is being used. Some mics have that warm sound already and a 2nd main might not be needed. A lot of things to take into consideration in any scenario like this. Obviously, vocals recorded on an SM57 aren't going to be as thick and crisp as they would on a Neumann.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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#36
So it's unnecessary for you and your opinion. Gotcha. Unnecessary for anybody? No not really. If the song calls for two up the middle thats what it is. If the song calls for one with the other buried underneath it thats what it is. If the song calls for two and to spread them out some thats what it is. And contrary to what has been posted here, not all majors do two tracks and mix them down to where it sounds like one. A lot of songs actually only have one lead track that was comped from a lot of other tracks, and the other parts that may come in and out are either ad lib tracks or bits and pieces from the comped tracks that are being used as ad lib tracks.

And for those who don't know what comping is read this:

http://www.protoolsmixing.com/2005/11/vocal-comping.html

Vocal Comping
OK, so vocals seem to be a running theme this week so i'm just gonna run with it. So alot of you up and coming people probably dont know what vocal comping is. Here's a brief description. Vocal comping is like putting together a puzzle and creating a work of art all at the same time.

When i recorded "Seven Days" for Mary J Blige, we had her sing the song from beginning to end many times. Probably fifteen times the first day, and we kept the ten best takes. After she finished singing, she left, the producer went into the lounge, and I stayed to ....... comp the lead vocal. So, what does this mean? OK, I now have ten individual takes of Mary. I only want one take. Should i listen and pick the best single take and just use that one? Hell no! I listen to every line, every phrase, every word, every syllable on every track, and pick the very best pieces, then assemble all of the best pieces into a single "composite" lead vocal track. So, I end up with one lead vocal track, but it was created from pieces of ten different takes. And when i mean pieces, I'm not kidding. Often, I'll have a 3 syllable word in the middle of a line, and I'll use the first syllable from take 3, the second syllable from take 7, and the third syllable from take ten. Not kidding.

So, on "Seven Days", i comp'd those ten tracks down to one. Then brought the producer in to listen. He and i went over it. He asked me to hear a few alternate choices on a few lines. We decided which was best and finished the comp. It felt really good. On mix day, the producer asked Mary to come in one more time and take a few more passes at the lead vocal to see if we could make it even better. Mary sang the song 4 more times and left. I then took the original comp Lead vocal from the first recording day, and put that up against the 4 new takes, found the best of the best and put together a new comp LV. This Lead Vocal was stellar. all in all 14 kept takes, got comp'd down to 1.

I've repeated the above scenario in various forms on countless records. This is the way I prefer to cut vocals. I HATE punching in lead vocals. (do you guys who've never used analog even know what punching means? you should) I've done it alot. Back in the days of analog 24 track recording, alot of my clients called me "Blur" because I could punch in and out so fast they couldnt see my fingers. I had a knack for it, for the timing, and i was really good at it. I miss it actually. But i dont miss recording lead vocals that way. I've always liked giving the singer full takes, then going back and puttting it all together. It flows better for me, and I feel most singers perform better when they dont have to put one line under a microscope and they can just let a performance flow. Sometimes, actually often, i'll go a verse at a time, so they arent worn out by the bridge, or so they have all the energy they need when they hit the chorus. And I'll often sample and fly choruses, and of course now with pro tools its dead simple to copy and move pieces around. We used to have to do it with either digital samplers or my favorite method, flying choruses with an analog 2 track half inch machine. It sounded amazing if you could time it well.

So, nowadays, I'll record vocals until i feel like the singer hits a certain zone where they are really performing well. Then I'll try to get between 4 and 8 really great takes of each section, then afterwards, I'll usually go a bar or two at a time, put it in loop mode, and listen to each take of a particular line. Make my notes, and put together the best pieces of every line into a single comp lead vocal. Sometimes I'll also comp a double track against the lead vocal in similar fashion, if i think the song can benefit from a double track. This is easier than trying to have the singer go back in and double the comp vocal.

Comping is incredibly time consuming and requires a heightened level of concentration and patience, but just so ya know, for you guys and girls out there trying to make major label level records with no budget, this is typically how its done. Not always. but usually. even with great singers like Mary J Blige and Mariah Carey. Now imagine before the days of autotune. But it can make a world of difference to the feel of a song. Now you have the best moments that the singer gave, not just the best single take.

Far too many young bands and artists dont spend much time at all preparing to record vocals, then recording vocals, and comping vocals. Then the singer thinks its a good thing that they "got the song in two takes". whenever i hear a singer say that, i know i'm in for a scary vocal. sometimes, rarely, i am surprised. Sometimes I'll spend 8 hours recording and comping a lead vocal. time very well spent. The lead vocal will make or break the song in the end. make sure its great.

A side note. I get ALOT of stuff in to mix. I always scratch my head when i get songs in to mix that were recorded in a home studio but the vocal is pitchy or not a stellar performance. If you have your own home studio to record your vocals, spend the time to make them amazing.

Anyway, I've got to get back to vocal comping right now in fact. E-dro gave some great performances tonight, and i need to dig thru each take to make sure i've found all the best moments. Just so you know that even great singers get comp'd, here's a short list of artists I've recorded and comp'd......... Mary J Blige, Usher, David Byrne, Lenny Kravitz, Ludacris, Soul Asylum, Diana Ross, Joe Budden, 702, Jaheim, Will Downing, Simply Red, Queen Latifah, Tyrese, Aaron Hall, SWV, etc..... are you getting the idea yet?

Last word of advise. When comping, frequently step back and listen to the big picture, listen to how your comps are flowing, do they make sense from line to line, verse to verse, or does it sound put together? a great comp should sound to the listener like the artist sang it one time and sang it incredibly well. Even the in between breaths. If you solo a vocal I've comp'd, you'll never hear a clipped breath and a glitch. it sounds like one take, even if it was 14 takes.
Right on for the info Heresy. That was much needed for me. I use 2 leads depending on the person's voice. I have a friend who's vocals are thin so he does 2 leads, 2 doubles (left and right), and 1 extra double for the background low or ad-libs. What's your thoughts on doing it that way?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
18,326
11,459
113
www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#37
If the song calls for it go for it. If the song doesn't call for it don't do it. In other words, consider the concept of the song, the vibe of the song, the equipment used to record the song and the instruments in the mix. A better mic, pre amp and better positioning may improve the persons voice, so you should consider these options as well. Where you place those tracks depends on whats already there and what you're trying to achieve, but based off what you typed you can create a "wall of sound" but you need to find out where to put everything. Take the leads and put them at 11 and 1. Take the adlib track and put it in the middle since its only one. However, if you have something in the mix that is panned a certain area and nothing on the opposite side consider panning the adlib track to the opposite side to make it more balanced. The other tracks can either be panned hard (watch out for cancellation and check your mix in mono) or you can bring them to the halfway mark.
 
Apr 25, 2002
7,232
170
63
42
www.idealsentertainment.com
#39
If the song calls for it go for it. If the song doesn't call for it don't do it. In other words, consider the concept of the song, the vibe of the song, the equipment used to record the song and the instruments in the mix. A better mic, pre amp and better positioning may improve the persons voice, so you should consider these options as well. Where you place those tracks depends on whats already there and what you're trying to achieve, but based off what you typed you can create a "wall of sound" but you need to find out where to put everything. Take the leads and put them at 11 and 1. Take the adlib track and put it in the middle since its only one. However, if you have something in the mix that is panned a certain area and nothing on the opposite side consider panning the adlib track to the opposite side to make it more balanced. The other tracks can either be panned hard (watch out for cancellation and check your mix in mono) or you can bring them to the halfway mark.
I can totally agree with everything you've said here. And, I can't even lie...since this discussion started between you and I, I've been experimenting a LOT more...and I please myself and my clientele more and more each day. After all, this business is about keeping an open mind, right? With that said, I thank you for all your input...