The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
- Thread starter ColdBlooded
- Start date
You might be. Who knows? Personally, I don't see how it could be considered ridiculous or disgusting and neither do the millions of people who trace their lineage each year. Do scientists map the so-called evolution of man? How is this any more ridiculous or disgusting than tracing ones heritage?
Who can't prove what?
Yet, I do recall on several occassions where you mention man as being nothing more than a beast. In fact you have referred to man as an animal and nothing more.
Who can't prove what?
Yet, I do recall on several occassions where you mention man as being nothing more than a beast. In fact you have referred to man as an animal and nothing more.
What purpose does it serve, other than perhaps trying to prove that X, Y and Z are apart of "Gods chosen people" or the sons of mythical people, while A, B and C are not and less superior.
Mapping evolution of man is different than saying my race or bloodline is superior to yours.
That someones blood came from one of the 12 (or 10) tribes or the mythical 12 sons. Even if it was possible after a few hundred years bloodlines mean nothing unless your inbreeding.
I never said man was equal to dog. The point of me saying "we are not breeding dogs here" is because thats what occurs in dog shows, i.e. purebreds.
Mapping evolution of man is different than saying my race or bloodline is superior to yours.
That someones blood came from one of the 12 (or 10) tribes or the mythical 12 sons. Even if it was possible after a few hundred years bloodlines mean nothing unless your inbreeding.
I never said man was equal to dog. The point of me saying "we are not breeding dogs here" is because thats what occurs in dog shows, i.e. purebreds.
This has nothing to do with being a part of Gods chosen people, the sons of mythical people or proving A,B and C are inferior. This is about a man (Jomodo) making nonsensical claims and being called on them. He said he found, "...the notion of denying semetic heritage to the modern day Jew demoralizing", however you are implying his heritage should not be questioned (on grounds that it is ridiculous and disgusting), thus giving him an easy way out and not holding him accountable for his statements.
Yes, I agree 100%, however if you read what is going on here I was not the first to mention religion (in ANY aspect) OR superiority. No one here is saying "my bloodline is superior to yours", however this man is claiming to be of the bloodline in question (HEBREW/SEMETIC), and I am asking him to verify his claim.
Comrade, do you understand a large group of so-called jews claim to be rightful heirs to the land because of their bloodline? If these people CANNOT validate this claim why should they accuse people of being "anti-semetic" or find certain views demoralizing?
Yes, this is what happens in dog shows, however THE link between MANY of the so-called jews and Israel, is the FACT that these people CLAIM to come from a certain group of people that received a promise from God.
Yes, I agree 100%, however if you read what is going on here I was not the first to mention religion (in ANY aspect) OR superiority. No one here is saying "my bloodline is superior to yours", however this man is claiming to be of the bloodline in question (HEBREW/SEMETIC), and I am asking him to verify his claim.
Comrade, do you understand a large group of so-called jews claim to be rightful heirs to the land because of their bloodline? If these people CANNOT validate this claim why should they accuse people of being "anti-semetic" or find certain views demoralizing?
Yes, this is what happens in dog shows, however THE link between MANY of the so-called jews and Israel, is the FACT that these people CLAIM to come from a certain group of people that received a promise from God.
No, it does because the only reason people attempt to trace bloodlines back to the mythical tribes is to somehow prove they are related and thus being gods chosen people. Only other example that comes to mind are “Arians” who try to prove their beautiful pure white race.
Actually I’m not implying that, I simply find it ridiculous that people at this day and age trace their bloodlines and I blurted a statement, without really trying to get involved in your conversation with J. You can question his heritage all you want, that’s fine by me. I just find it absurd that there are people in the year 2006 that actually try to trace their bloodline back thousands of years. After a few hundred years the bloodline wouldn’t really even exist unless these people inbred. It’s ridiculous and, IMO, another example of how retarded religion is.
I understand comrade but this conversation has come up on the boards a couple of times in the past and I remained silent until now.
When people claim their bloodlines trace back to the mythical tribes they believe that they are gods chosen people, which in itself implies that their race (or bloodline) is superior.
Yes I do which is kind of my point. It’s ridiculous.
Good question.
I understand and it’s ridiculous.
Actually I’m not implying that, I simply find it ridiculous that people at this day and age trace their bloodlines and I blurted a statement, without really trying to get involved in your conversation with J. You can question his heritage all you want, that’s fine by me. I just find it absurd that there are people in the year 2006 that actually try to trace their bloodline back thousands of years. After a few hundred years the bloodline wouldn’t really even exist unless these people inbred. It’s ridiculous and, IMO, another example of how retarded religion is.
I understand comrade but this conversation has come up on the boards a couple of times in the past and I remained silent until now.
When people claim their bloodlines trace back to the mythical tribes they believe that they are gods chosen people, which in itself implies that their race (or bloodline) is superior.
Yes I do which is kind of my point. It’s ridiculous.
Good question.
I understand and it’s ridiculous.
Israeli Jew’s comprise of a myriad of ethnic nationalities. Israeli Jew’s are of Western & Eastern European descent, Turkish, Persian (Iranian, Iraqi, ect.) descent, North African (Ethiopian, Morrocan, ect) descent, Spainish descent, there are Crypto Jews in Latin Americas,and even some (very few) Asain descent. We are all ACHIM or brothers, members of the same tribe. Our bloodline ties us through our traditions, which bonds us together through Torah & Talmud.
Oppression over the years have forced us to be spread across the globe and end up in these places (diaspora(s)). (from the the Ancient Egytians, Assyrians, Philistines, Amalakites, the Romans and Greeks with 1st temple in 586 BCE, to the destruction of the 2nd temple, through the Byzantine, through the ottoman empire, to the Christian and Muslim Crusaders, through the Spainish inquisition, up to the pogroms, followed by the holocaust) We have been ostracized, discriminated, and hated since the before the times of Pharaoh. There is no claim of superiority, however, there is a claim to have a land of our own and defend that land and eventually a land where we can live in peace.
Aside from metropolitan USA (and a select few other in Metropolitan area’s across the globe) Israel is virtually the only place in the world where it is socially acceptable, let alone safe to live an openly Jewish life. We have a right to exist, and we have a right to a Jewish State!!!
We as Jews make up less than ¼ percent of the global population, but are pinpointed for a majority of the worlds problems for the last 2000 years….
As I've said before, we are all part of a greater one, even those of different faiths, and I firmly believe that when we all come to terms with this concept on a global level, we’ll all be much better off
Oppression over the years have forced us to be spread across the globe and end up in these places (diaspora(s)). (from the the Ancient Egytians, Assyrians, Philistines, Amalakites, the Romans and Greeks with 1st temple in 586 BCE, to the destruction of the 2nd temple, through the Byzantine, through the ottoman empire, to the Christian and Muslim Crusaders, through the Spainish inquisition, up to the pogroms, followed by the holocaust) We have been ostracized, discriminated, and hated since the before the times of Pharaoh. There is no claim of superiority, however, there is a claim to have a land of our own and defend that land and eventually a land where we can live in peace.
Aside from metropolitan USA (and a select few other in Metropolitan area’s across the globe) Israel is virtually the only place in the world where it is socially acceptable, let alone safe to live an openly Jewish life. We have a right to exist, and we have a right to a Jewish State!!!
We as Jews make up less than ¼ percent of the global population, but are pinpointed for a majority of the worlds problems for the last 2000 years….
As I've said before, we are all part of a greater one, even those of different faiths, and I firmly believe that when we all come to terms with this concept on a global level, we’ll all be much better off
So, what you are telling me is you know every person who has attempted to trace their lineage to the "mythical tribes", and the motive is to somehow Gods chosen people. So, you know the motives of every person who has traced their lineage?
Again, this is not about superiority or being teh so-called master race. This is about being SEMITIC which has NOTHING to do with being Gods chosen, because you have semites who are NOT considered Gods chosen. Also, the "arians" are not the only ones who trace their lineage and promote superiority.
When you say things such as, "What purpose does it serve", and "Am I the only one that thinks tracing back bloodlines is ridiculous and disgusting?", are you not implying that it is a waste of time? If it is a waste of time you ARE implying his lineage shouldn't be questioned.
Comrade, the so-called jews are NOT the only people attempting to trace their lineage or who CAN trace their lineage. The family of the Tokugawa Shogunate can trace their lineage back very far. The european monarchy can trace their lineage very far. You are making it seem as if no one has kept records or that history cannot prove ones nationality/origin. In some cases (such as the so-called jews and african americans) this is true, but this has NOTHING to do with religion. Also, some scientist make the claim that we are ALL inbred, yet they say bloodlines are still distinct.
Comrade, you have MILLIONS of people claiming to be Gods "chosen race" yet these people CANNOT prove a link to the people they claim to have come from. If they can't prove "A" why should we consider "B-Z?" I am asking for historical or scientific evidence to validate the claim, and to be honest all historical and scientific evidence theyhave used to support the claim has been DEBUNKED. Also, the historical and scientific claims by those in opposition has yet to be fully refuted. Throw religion out the window on this one and lets stick to the facts. WHERE DO THE SO-CALLED JEWS COME FROM? HOW ARE THEY SEMITIC?
Comrade, I am trying to leave the bible, religion, spirituality and God out of this topic. However, the REAL hebrews (something the majority of so-called Jews are NOT) were not chosen because they were superior. They were chosen because God made a promise to Abraham. This has NOTHING to do with them being the master race or anything like that.
See the above.
And this is my point. Forget about God, throw religion out the window, crucify spirituality and lets deal with the claims made by the so-called jews of today. These claims are:
1. They are the SEED (meaning BLOOD descendents of Abraham)
2. They are entitiled to the land in question (Israel) because of the bloodline.
If you CANNOT prove #1 you have NO reason to even claim #2 as a your reality.
lol.....
@Jomodo you said:
The only thing I get out of this is you are claiming you are all related because of traditions/customs and religion. How do all the nationalities you mention trace to Abraham? Do the Eastern european jews trace to Yehuda? If so where is the historical or scientific evidence to validate it? Do the spanish jews trace to Levi? If so where is the historical or scientific evidence to validate it?
Similar things have happened to Afrikans. What is your point? Are you implying that because of these things no one kept proper records? If no one kept proper records how can you make the logically make the claim? YOU CAN'T!!!!!
Where is the historical or scientific evidence linking the so-called jews of today to the HEBREWS that were ostracized, discriminated, and hated since before the times of Pharaoh? It doesn't exist, but if such evidence DID exist, it most likely has been refuted.
The COLD part about this is, if the ROTHSCHILDS had NOT supported the BALFOUR DECLARATION, THESE SO-CALLED JEWS WOULD HAVE HAD UGANDA OR ARGENTINA AS A "PROMISED LAND." :dead: x 6,000,000,001
And this claim you speak of what is it based on? Is it conditional? Are the jews supposed to be given the land by God or are they to recieve it from Man? Are they given a land because they have RETURNED to Ha-shem in terms of belief and deed?
And you have no evidence to back this claim. What you are telling me, is in south america, where a large so-called jewish population exists, that it is socially unacceptable to openly live a jewish life? Please, get real.
You have the right to live. However you do not have the right to make claims based on NOTHING.
Yet, how much of the worlds total wealth do so called jews control? :dead:
What does this have to do with anything? You and the rest of the so-called jews are crying "anti semitism", yet you cannot link yourself historically or scientifically to the children of Abraham. This is a FACT.
Also, I would like to ad that SEMITIC actual denotes a linguistic tie and has NOTHING to do with bloodline, however for the sake of argument SEMITIC is used here to denote racial ties.
Again, this is not about superiority or being teh so-called master race. This is about being SEMITIC which has NOTHING to do with being Gods chosen, because you have semites who are NOT considered Gods chosen. Also, the "arians" are not the only ones who trace their lineage and promote superiority.
When you say things such as, "What purpose does it serve", and "Am I the only one that thinks tracing back bloodlines is ridiculous and disgusting?", are you not implying that it is a waste of time? If it is a waste of time you ARE implying his lineage shouldn't be questioned.
Comrade, the so-called jews are NOT the only people attempting to trace their lineage or who CAN trace their lineage. The family of the Tokugawa Shogunate can trace their lineage back very far. The european monarchy can trace their lineage very far. You are making it seem as if no one has kept records or that history cannot prove ones nationality/origin. In some cases (such as the so-called jews and african americans) this is true, but this has NOTHING to do with religion. Also, some scientist make the claim that we are ALL inbred, yet they say bloodlines are still distinct.
Comrade, you have MILLIONS of people claiming to be Gods "chosen race" yet these people CANNOT prove a link to the people they claim to have come from. If they can't prove "A" why should we consider "B-Z?" I am asking for historical or scientific evidence to validate the claim, and to be honest all historical and scientific evidence theyhave used to support the claim has been DEBUNKED. Also, the historical and scientific claims by those in opposition has yet to be fully refuted. Throw religion out the window on this one and lets stick to the facts. WHERE DO THE SO-CALLED JEWS COME FROM? HOW ARE THEY SEMITIC?
Comrade, I am trying to leave the bible, religion, spirituality and God out of this topic. However, the REAL hebrews (something the majority of so-called Jews are NOT) were not chosen because they were superior. They were chosen because God made a promise to Abraham. This has NOTHING to do with them being the master race or anything like that.
See the above.
And this is my point. Forget about God, throw religion out the window, crucify spirituality and lets deal with the claims made by the so-called jews of today. These claims are:
1. They are the SEED (meaning BLOOD descendents of Abraham)
2. They are entitiled to the land in question (Israel) because of the bloodline.
If you CANNOT prove #1 you have NO reason to even claim #2 as a your reality.
lol.....
@Jomodo you said:
The only thing I get out of this is you are claiming you are all related because of traditions/customs and religion. How do all the nationalities you mention trace to Abraham? Do the Eastern european jews trace to Yehuda? If so where is the historical or scientific evidence to validate it? Do the spanish jews trace to Levi? If so where is the historical or scientific evidence to validate it?
Similar things have happened to Afrikans. What is your point? Are you implying that because of these things no one kept proper records? If no one kept proper records how can you make the logically make the claim? YOU CAN'T!!!!!
Where is the historical or scientific evidence linking the so-called jews of today to the HEBREWS that were ostracized, discriminated, and hated since before the times of Pharaoh? It doesn't exist, but if such evidence DID exist, it most likely has been refuted.
The COLD part about this is, if the ROTHSCHILDS had NOT supported the BALFOUR DECLARATION, THESE SO-CALLED JEWS WOULD HAVE HAD UGANDA OR ARGENTINA AS A "PROMISED LAND." :dead: x 6,000,000,001
And this claim you speak of what is it based on? Is it conditional? Are the jews supposed to be given the land by God or are they to recieve it from Man? Are they given a land because they have RETURNED to Ha-shem in terms of belief and deed?
And you have no evidence to back this claim. What you are telling me, is in south america, where a large so-called jewish population exists, that it is socially unacceptable to openly live a jewish life? Please, get real.
You have the right to live. However you do not have the right to make claims based on NOTHING.
Yet, how much of the worlds total wealth do so called jews control? :dead:
What does this have to do with anything? You and the rest of the so-called jews are crying "anti semitism", yet you cannot link yourself historically or scientifically to the children of Abraham. This is a FACT.
Also, I would like to ad that SEMITIC actual denotes a linguistic tie and has NOTHING to do with bloodline, however for the sake of argument SEMITIC is used here to denote racial ties.
This is some interesting stuff. So Heresy, you're basically saying that the present day Jews of today are not actually Jews/Semetic. That kinda makes sense to me, since who knows how many years have passed since the Exodus from Egypt occured. I find it very illogical (not impossible but illogical) that all 20-25 million Jewish people alive today can trace their lineage back to the original 12 tribes that crossed over the Red Sea.
Heresy, I heard somewhere that the closest thing to the original Jews today are the Ethiopian Jews. Someone told me they have the most Semitic blood compared to all other Jewish people, is that true? And what about all the Jews from North America, Europe, North Africa, ect. Would you consider any of them to be Semitic or desendants of the original 12 tribes? And if they aren't, then are they converts? Would you consider a convert to be a real Jew?
What are your thoughts?
Heresy, I heard somewhere that the closest thing to the original Jews today are the Ethiopian Jews. Someone told me they have the most Semitic blood compared to all other Jewish people, is that true? And what about all the Jews from North America, Europe, North Africa, ect. Would you consider any of them to be Semitic or desendants of the original 12 tribes? And if they aren't, then are they converts? Would you consider a convert to be a real Jew?
What are your thoughts?
Correct.
So do I.
Scientific and historical evidence supports this view, yes.
From everything I have read they have closer ties to the original people because they didn't travel all over the globe and they kept to themselves. The Ethiopian Jews can tell you who and where they came from. A person might not believe them or discredit them, but at least they have something to back them up. The so-called jews of today have YET to say WHO they come from, and if they did it would be quickly discredited and destroyed by historical evidence.
Do I consider all of the people you listed to be related to the 12 tribes? No. Do I believe (based on what I have read and different people I have talked to) that the majority of them are who they say they are? No. I don't consider the european Jews as real jews. Converts to Judaism? Well, if you can call what they do judaism (seems like Talmudism to me) yes, this is EXACTLY what they are.
A real jew? Well it depends on your definition of jew. One who adheres to judaism? Yes the convert would be a jew in that sense. A real jew as one who traces to Yehudim? No. A real jew as one who is HEBREW? No!
So do I.
Scientific and historical evidence supports this view, yes.
From everything I have read they have closer ties to the original people because they didn't travel all over the globe and they kept to themselves. The Ethiopian Jews can tell you who and where they came from. A person might not believe them or discredit them, but at least they have something to back them up. The so-called jews of today have YET to say WHO they come from, and if they did it would be quickly discredited and destroyed by historical evidence.
Do I consider all of the people you listed to be related to the 12 tribes? No. Do I believe (based on what I have read and different people I have talked to) that the majority of them are who they say they are? No. I don't consider the european Jews as real jews. Converts to Judaism? Well, if you can call what they do judaism (seems like Talmudism to me) yes, this is EXACTLY what they are.
A real jew? Well it depends on your definition of jew. One who adheres to judaism? Yes the convert would be a jew in that sense. A real jew as one who traces to Yehudim? No. A real jew as one who is HEBREW? No!
Yet the country of Israel only allows 300 to 600 Ethiopian jews per year. I can gurantee more "european" jews are let in on a DAILY basis. :dead:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11873
I have refuted this in the past. Also, the test is debunked here:
http://www.ariga.com/genes.shtml
This is pretty much the same as the wikipedia link Jomodo provided. Also, keep in mind that these so - called jews will tell you they get their jewishness from their mothers, yet they are claiming this gene is the link to them and Israel (or the priesthood.) Also, for the sake of argument, lets say the cohen gene DOES exist and the Cohens are related to hebrews. Where does that leave the REMAINING so called jews who are not cohen? :dead: x 23,888,990,765
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=11873
I have refuted this in the past. Also, the test is debunked here:
http://www.ariga.com/genes.shtml
This is pretty much the same as the wikipedia link Jomodo provided. Also, keep in mind that these so - called jews will tell you they get their jewishness from their mothers, yet they are claiming this gene is the link to them and Israel (or the priesthood.) Also, for the sake of argument, lets say the cohen gene DOES exist and the Cohens are related to hebrews. Where does that leave the REMAINING so called jews who are not cohen? :dead: x 23,888,990,765
I don't have time (or haven't made time) to do the whole quote thing, but...
Some issues which stood out that I’d like to address. Yes there are places in remote Latin America where there are thriving Crypto Orthodox Jews, and they are freely practice their religion (there are other denomonations as well). However, that is the exception, and not the rule, as I should have placed a greater emphasis on ‘VIRTUALLY’ (in reference to being able to openly practice Judaism)…. There are also parts of Latin America where it is not safe to openly flag being Jewish. Even here in the good ol’ rural USA it is not always safe or tolerated, Virtually the entire Eastern Block hates Jew’s, and still has forms of institutional and overt anti-semitism and prejudice against the Jew’s (it’s quite depressing actually). Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation). No chance in Communist China (and it’s domain). Then there is the Entire Mid-East and most of N. Africa which isn’t very tolerant and being Jewish is a big no-no. Anyway…
Another point I would like to address is the immigration issue for the Ethiopian Jews. There is no doubt that they (as well as other N. African or Persian Jews) are put under much more scrutiny when it comes to the law of return. This does not sit well with either of us, or a significant percentage of the Israeli population as well. There is already proactive measures being taken to rectify this situation…
http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=2/a/ix/101120053
I actually feel a bigger problem is that once in Israel, the Ethiopian and other N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews do unfortunately face some institutional racism as well. Especially at the educational level, after their H.S. education and/or Military service, they are encouraged to pursue vocational training, as opposed to preperation for college entrance exams. I think these policies will shift, as greater numbers emigrate…
It is obvious that we will go round & round & round & round on this issue of being semetic. As you pointed out, the etymology of Semetic does refer to a language or tounge from the current Mid-east region (Hebrew being the language of interest as far as this convo goes)… The Torah is written in which language? Over the centuries, the Jews have sacrificed and fled oppression, cross-bred,in-bred, out bred, and any other type of breeding, with the main intention to preserve our culture, history, and traditions, and written and taught in the Torah (accompanied by the Talmudic oral law). This, you already know.
The dichotomy of the Y-Chormosomal Aaron going through male genes, in conjunction with Rabbinical Orthodox Talmudic law ascribing the mother to pass on the genes is an interesting point. Forgive my rash assumptions for I haven’t brushed up on my genetics, but can’t a women have a male son?
Anyway, to go on another tangent, Israel’s law of return is not necisarrily consistent with the Rabbinic Jewish Council’s definition of a Jew. In fact, admittedly the definition of a Jew is a struggle to define for us ourselves within the entire Jewish culture. We constantly debate with what it means to be a Jew (we spend lifetimes contemplating this question, so to sum it up in myramblings on a message board is too daunting of a task)…
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’
it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy…
Speaking of the financial issue, b/c of the wandering Jew complex we’ve faced throughout history, we’ve had to get into a trade which accommodated the possibility of maybe having to just pick up and move at the drop of a dime, thus banking and jewelry cutting have become prevalent in the past 800 years or so. We weren’t able to own land, to farm, or bake, or other trades we were banned from political forums, so money and banking became a prevalent profession. A profession which derived out of hate and oppression led to much success, thus leading to more hate and oppression…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank
http://www.clearleadinc.com/site/banking-history.html
http://members.core.com/~mikerose/history.html
and there’s a lot more. So as it is a tendancy, and Rothschild is a huge player, he does not embody or personify Jews or Judaism as a whole. It would be like using Bush as a model for all Christians…
The Jewish Heritgage (descendents of the Hebrews of old) is survived by the written word of the Book, or the Torah (in conjunction with the oral traditions as expressed in the Talmud)… Through a turbulent & violent past, when forced to give up all other material possessions, we protected the Torah above all, regardless of the persecution we had to endure, which has all in all bonded our ties to Israel, bottom line!
I know none of this flows and is written shittly, but it was done so in haste throughout this work day…
Be well, and Shabbat shalom!
Some issues which stood out that I’d like to address. Yes there are places in remote Latin America where there are thriving Crypto Orthodox Jews, and they are freely practice their religion (there are other denomonations as well). However, that is the exception, and not the rule, as I should have placed a greater emphasis on ‘VIRTUALLY’ (in reference to being able to openly practice Judaism)…. There are also parts of Latin America where it is not safe to openly flag being Jewish. Even here in the good ol’ rural USA it is not always safe or tolerated, Virtually the entire Eastern Block hates Jew’s, and still has forms of institutional and overt anti-semitism and prejudice against the Jew’s (it’s quite depressing actually). Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation). No chance in Communist China (and it’s domain). Then there is the Entire Mid-East and most of N. Africa which isn’t very tolerant and being Jewish is a big no-no. Anyway…
Another point I would like to address is the immigration issue for the Ethiopian Jews. There is no doubt that they (as well as other N. African or Persian Jews) are put under much more scrutiny when it comes to the law of return. This does not sit well with either of us, or a significant percentage of the Israeli population as well. There is already proactive measures being taken to rectify this situation…
http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=2/a/ix/101120053
I actually feel a bigger problem is that once in Israel, the Ethiopian and other N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews do unfortunately face some institutional racism as well. Especially at the educational level, after their H.S. education and/or Military service, they are encouraged to pursue vocational training, as opposed to preperation for college entrance exams. I think these policies will shift, as greater numbers emigrate…
It is obvious that we will go round & round & round & round on this issue of being semetic. As you pointed out, the etymology of Semetic does refer to a language or tounge from the current Mid-east region (Hebrew being the language of interest as far as this convo goes)… The Torah is written in which language? Over the centuries, the Jews have sacrificed and fled oppression, cross-bred,in-bred, out bred, and any other type of breeding, with the main intention to preserve our culture, history, and traditions, and written and taught in the Torah (accompanied by the Talmudic oral law). This, you already know.
The dichotomy of the Y-Chormosomal Aaron going through male genes, in conjunction with Rabbinical Orthodox Talmudic law ascribing the mother to pass on the genes is an interesting point. Forgive my rash assumptions for I haven’t brushed up on my genetics, but can’t a women have a male son?
Anyway, to go on another tangent, Israel’s law of return is not necisarrily consistent with the Rabbinic Jewish Council’s definition of a Jew. In fact, admittedly the definition of a Jew is a struggle to define for us ourselves within the entire Jewish culture. We constantly debate with what it means to be a Jew (we spend lifetimes contemplating this question, so to sum it up in myramblings on a message board is too daunting of a task)…
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’
it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy…Speaking of the financial issue, b/c of the wandering Jew complex we’ve faced throughout history, we’ve had to get into a trade which accommodated the possibility of maybe having to just pick up and move at the drop of a dime, thus banking and jewelry cutting have become prevalent in the past 800 years or so. We weren’t able to own land, to farm, or bake, or other trades we were banned from political forums, so money and banking became a prevalent profession. A profession which derived out of hate and oppression led to much success, thus leading to more hate and oppression…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank
http://www.clearleadinc.com/site/banking-history.html
http://members.core.com/~mikerose/history.html
and there’s a lot more. So as it is a tendancy, and Rothschild is a huge player, he does not embody or personify Jews or Judaism as a whole. It would be like using Bush as a model for all Christians…
The Jewish Heritgage (descendents of the Hebrews of old) is survived by the written word of the Book, or the Torah (in conjunction with the oral traditions as expressed in the Talmud)… Through a turbulent & violent past, when forced to give up all other material possessions, we protected the Torah above all, regardless of the persecution we had to endure, which has all in all bonded our ties to Israel, bottom line!
I know none of this flows and is written shittly, but it was done so in haste throughout this work day…
Be well, and Shabbat shalom!
Places in "remote Latin America?" You have an estimated 400,000 thousand in Argentina, an estimated 100,000 in Brazil and an estimated 55,000 in Mexico. Since WHEN have these countries been deemed "remote?"
How is this relevant to our topic?
The exception? Listen, you said, "Aside from metropolitan USA (and a select few other in Metropolitan area’s across the globe) Israel is virtually the only place in the world where it is socially acceptable, let alone safe to live an openly Jewish life.", and you are wrong. Do the estimated 610,000 so-called Jews in France practice freely, or do they hide in basements? The truth is you are attempting to make it seem as if those who practice Judaism have no where to practice (aside from the USA and a select metropolitan area's across the globe.)
So? There are parts of america where it is not safe to have DARK skin. I am not saying everything is peaches and cream for the so-called jews in Latin America. What I AM saying is you are INCORRECT in your statement. What I am saying is you are MISLEADING the readers with the claims you are making.
This is a waste of bandwidth.
Listen, if you are not attempting to construct a correlation between The Passion and a rise in violence against the so-called jews in Western Europe, why even mention The Passion? Why not just say "it has been rising since (insert date of whenever the passion came out?) Truth is, you are talking out of your ass, have been for some time now, and if we were to do a bit of research we would probably come up with numbers that say the crime/discrimination/violence against so-called jews in Eastern Europe have been on the rise BEFORE the passion (and thats IF it's on the rise at all because you offer NO proof to validate your claim.)
Useless info.
See, this is exactly what I am talking about. You have people (Ethiopian Jews) who have basically stuck to the SAME script for CENTURIES. These people actually thought they were the last of the jewish population (because they were isolated) and CAN give an account to who they trace to, yet they are being DISCRIMINATED against. Why are they being discriminated against? Most likely because they ARE afrikan AND they are REAL jews. Btw, what is the significant percentage of Israeli population who are in disagreement with the treatment of the ethiopian jews? 10k? 400k?
It depends on which Torah you are referring to and what time period. You have Torahs writtin in coptic, some writtin in BIBLICAL HEBREW, and you even have versions like teh Yemenite Torah etc. But how is any of this relevant to what we are discussing? Yes, I mentioned semitic and linguistics, BUT for the scope of this topic when I mention HEBREW I am speaking of those who are HEBREW in BLOODLINE. Hebrew is NOT the language of interest as far as this convo goes because a large percentage of the so-called jewish population speak YIDDISH, ENGLISH, ARABIC and ARAMAIC.
Useless info. Fictitious accounts are not needed here, and you need to stick to what has been presented. The bottom line is the so-called jews of today have NO historical or scietific evidence to verify that they are, in fact, the children of Abraham. You can say the jews have done this and that, bred this way or that way, yet you have NO PROOF that the so-called jews (most of them european in origin) came from the mid east.
Who said a woman COULDN'T have a male son? The point is you are attempting to spin my words out of context so you can avoid the point that was being made. I'll review the point again, and we will see you dance around the question (you have been avoiding questions since this convo has started.) Lets say the cohen gene DOES exist, and the Cohens are related to hebrews. Where does that leave the REMAINING so called jews who are not cohen?
More useless info, and the reason they are struggling with a defining themselves,is because they are actually claiming to be something they are not. :dead: Since when have "WE" spent lifetimes doing anything? YOU (yes YOU) have done NOTHING! Stop trying to make it seem as if you are a vanguard for the great jewish cause. We both know you aren't so cut the crap.
It is interesting how an 18 MINUTE FILM is "choc full of info" pertaining to the complexities of so-called american jews.....(yeah...probably the same ones who had a hand in the slave trade....Thats another topic for another time.)
This is USELESS INFO. In response to, "We as Jews make up less than ¼ percent of the global population,", I asked, how much of the worlds total wealth do so called jews control? The ENTIRE rant about banking, jewelry cutting, not able to own farms/lands etc is USELESS. I will ask you again. HOW MUCH OF THE WORLDS TOTAL WEALTH DO THE SO-CALLED JEWS CONTROL/OWN?
Who said the Rothschilds embodied or personified Jews or Judaism as a whole? I am mentioning the ROTHSCHILDS because it was LORD ROTHSCHILD that gave the greenlight in this entire SCHEME!
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917
For those who want more info research Guy de Rothschild and Mayer Amschel Rothschild.
No scientific or historical proof to validate your claim...
Useless info (albeit highly emotional charged info) used to steer the reader away from the core of the convo. Now, since you speak of the written word of the Book, why have you failed to answer simple questions? Are the jews supposed to be given the land by God or are they to recieve it from Man? Are they given the land because they have RETURNED to Ha-shem in terms of belief and deed?
How is this relevant to our topic?
The exception? Listen, you said, "Aside from metropolitan USA (and a select few other in Metropolitan area’s across the globe) Israel is virtually the only place in the world where it is socially acceptable, let alone safe to live an openly Jewish life.", and you are wrong. Do the estimated 610,000 so-called Jews in France practice freely, or do they hide in basements? The truth is you are attempting to make it seem as if those who practice Judaism have no where to practice (aside from the USA and a select metropolitan area's across the globe.)
So? There are parts of america where it is not safe to have DARK skin. I am not saying everything is peaches and cream for the so-called jews in Latin America. What I AM saying is you are INCORRECT in your statement. What I am saying is you are MISLEADING the readers with the claims you are making.
This is a waste of bandwidth.
Listen, if you are not attempting to construct a correlation between The Passion and a rise in violence against the so-called jews in Western Europe, why even mention The Passion? Why not just say "it has been rising since (insert date of whenever the passion came out?) Truth is, you are talking out of your ass, have been for some time now, and if we were to do a bit of research we would probably come up with numbers that say the crime/discrimination/violence against so-called jews in Eastern Europe have been on the rise BEFORE the passion (and thats IF it's on the rise at all because you offer NO proof to validate your claim.)
Useless info.
See, this is exactly what I am talking about. You have people (Ethiopian Jews) who have basically stuck to the SAME script for CENTURIES. These people actually thought they were the last of the jewish population (because they were isolated) and CAN give an account to who they trace to, yet they are being DISCRIMINATED against. Why are they being discriminated against? Most likely because they ARE afrikan AND they are REAL jews. Btw, what is the significant percentage of Israeli population who are in disagreement with the treatment of the ethiopian jews? 10k? 400k?
It depends on which Torah you are referring to and what time period. You have Torahs writtin in coptic, some writtin in BIBLICAL HEBREW, and you even have versions like teh Yemenite Torah etc. But how is any of this relevant to what we are discussing? Yes, I mentioned semitic and linguistics, BUT for the scope of this topic when I mention HEBREW I am speaking of those who are HEBREW in BLOODLINE. Hebrew is NOT the language of interest as far as this convo goes because a large percentage of the so-called jewish population speak YIDDISH, ENGLISH, ARABIC and ARAMAIC.
Useless info. Fictitious accounts are not needed here, and you need to stick to what has been presented. The bottom line is the so-called jews of today have NO historical or scietific evidence to verify that they are, in fact, the children of Abraham. You can say the jews have done this and that, bred this way or that way, yet you have NO PROOF that the so-called jews (most of them european in origin) came from the mid east.
Who said a woman COULDN'T have a male son? The point is you are attempting to spin my words out of context so you can avoid the point that was being made. I'll review the point again, and we will see you dance around the question (you have been avoiding questions since this convo has started.) Lets say the cohen gene DOES exist, and the Cohens are related to hebrews. Where does that leave the REMAINING so called jews who are not cohen?
More useless info, and the reason they are struggling with a defining themselves,is because they are actually claiming to be something they are not. :dead: Since when have "WE" spent lifetimes doing anything? YOU (yes YOU) have done NOTHING! Stop trying to make it seem as if you are a vanguard for the great jewish cause. We both know you aren't so cut the crap.
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’ it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy…
it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy…
This is USELESS INFO. In response to, "We as Jews make up less than ¼ percent of the global population,", I asked, how much of the worlds total wealth do so called jews control? The ENTIRE rant about banking, jewelry cutting, not able to own farms/lands etc is USELESS. I will ask you again. HOW MUCH OF THE WORLDS TOTAL WEALTH DO THE SO-CALLED JEWS CONTROL/OWN?
Who said the Rothschilds embodied or personified Jews or Judaism as a whole? I am mentioning the ROTHSCHILDS because it was LORD ROTHSCHILD that gave the greenlight in this entire SCHEME!
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917
For those who want more info research Guy de Rothschild and Mayer Amschel Rothschild.
No scientific or historical proof to validate your claim...
Useless info (albeit highly emotional charged info) used to steer the reader away from the core of the convo. Now, since you speak of the written word of the Book, why have you failed to answer simple questions? Are the jews supposed to be given the land by God or are they to recieve it from Man? Are they given the land because they have RETURNED to Ha-shem in terms of belief and deed?
Quote:
Yes there are places in remote Latin America where there are thriving Crypto Orthodox Jews, and they are freely practice their religion
These Jews generally live in metropolitan areas. Over half the Jewish population in Argentina is in Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Cordoba, over 90% of Brazilian Jews are in San Paulo or Rio De Janero. Good luck finding any Jews outside of Mexico City in Mexico as well. Point being there is a significant (5% of the total Jewish population) living in 5-8 different cities in these aforementioned Latin American countries. Odds of finding a Jew (let alone one who openly practices) in remote areas of this countries are low.
Quote:
(there are other denomonations as well).
Yes there are places in remote Latin America where there are thriving Crypto Orthodox Jews, and they are freely practice their religion
These Jews generally live in metropolitan areas. Over half the Jewish population in Argentina is in Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Cordoba, over 90% of Brazilian Jews are in San Paulo or Rio De Janero. Good luck finding any Jews outside of Mexico City in Mexico as well. Point being there is a significant (5% of the total Jewish population) living in 5-8 different cities in these aforementioned Latin American countries. Odds of finding a Jew (let alone one who openly practices) in remote areas of this countries are low.
Quote:
(there are other denomonations as well).
How is this relevant to our topic?
[QUOTE/]
Other denominations in the Jewish faith (reform, conservative, moder-orthodox, conserva-dox, who have either Ashkenazi or Sephardic backrounds)
Quote:
However, that is the exception, and not the rule, as I should have placed a greater emphasis on ‘VIRTUALLY’ (in reference to being able to openly practice Judaism)….
The Truth is, aside from the US and Israel, there aren’t many places, we could name all of the places/cities with doing 10 minutes of a google search .
I should have also made a distinction that where we do exist, it tends to be in metropolitan areas.
Jews in France face a lot more anti-Semitism, through violence, vandelism, & prejudice than American or Israeli Jews. Walking down the street in a Kipa puts one has a much higher risk of getting beat up anywhere in Metropolitan france (definitely in the back country). If people know your Jewish in the Eastern Block you won’t get a job, you’ll be denied public benefits, education, ostracized, humiliated, and physically threatened.
Quote:
There are also parts of Latin America where it is not safe to openly flag being Jewish.
Quote:
Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation).
Good point. There was no need for the cheap shot.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/new_threat/default.asp
Here’s a pleasant story
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Default.htm
Go to any internet search engine and type in ‘anti-semetic violence in _(name country here) 200X) and there will be plenty of reading material
Quote:
No chance in Communist China (and it’s domain). Then there is the Entire Mid-East and most of N. Africa which isn’t very tolerant and being Jewish is a big no-no. Anyway…
The truth none-the less…but if so useless then there’s no need to respond.
Quote:
Another point I would like to address is the immigration issue for the Ethiopian Jews. There is no doubt that they (as well as other N. African or Persian Jews) are put under much more scrutiny when it comes to the law of return. This does not sit well with either of us, or a significant percentage of the Israeli population as well. There is already proactive measures being taken to rectify this situation…http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/...a/ix/101120053I actually feel a bigger problem is that once in Israel, the Ethiopian and other N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews do unfortunately face some institutional racism as well. Especially at the educational level, after their H.S. education and/or Military service, they are encouraged to pursue vocational training, as opposed to preperation for college entrance exams. I think these policies will shift, as greater numbers emigrate…
I agree with you on this point. It is abhorrent and unacceptable, and contrary to some of our most basic & fundamental ideals of our faith. I have no empirical data, just personal sentiments from discussions that I had with others when I was there this past January on this very subject.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian descent, then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
Quote:
It is obvious that we will go round & round & round & round on this issue of being semetic. As you pointed out, the etymology of Semetic does refer to a language or tounge from the current Mid-east region (Hebrew being the language of interest as far as this convo goes)…The Torah is written in which language?
I’m referring the biblical Hebrew.
The evolution of Language is relevant to this topic…
‘The language of the Hebrew Bible (roughly the same as the Old Testament) is similar to other Canaanite languages from the same region and period. The books of the Hebrew Bible fall into three categories: Torah (laws of Moses), Nevi’im (prophets), and Ketuvim (chronicles and scrolls). The Hebrew Bible is sometimes known as Tanakh, which is simply an acronym of Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, or as Miqra (from the Semitic root q-r-’ ‘read,’ the same root that underlies the name of the Muslim Qur’an). These books show clear changes in style that represent the language’s natural development over a period of around a millennium and a half. During this time the language remained the dominant spoken language of the Israelites. All texts from this period are thought to make up a single grammar and are usually referred to collectively as Ancient Hebrew, a.k.a. Biblical Hebrew. It apparently reflected the language of the tribe of Judah, Jerusalem being the center of government and culture. Until the discovery of the Mesha Stone (in closely related Moabite) and the Siloam Inscription in the late 19th century, and findings such as the Lachish Letters, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nash Papyrus in the 20th century, the Hebrew of this period was known only from biblical texts.’
This is an except from this site
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
As we trace the language we also follow the people, which leads to us as Jews today from all over the world.
Quote:
The dichotomy of the Y-Chormosomal Aaron going through male genes, in conjunction with Rabbinical Orthodox Talmudic law ascribing the mother to pass on the genes is an interesting point. Forgive my rash assumptions for I haven’t brushed up on my genetics, but can’t a women have a male son?
The Kohanim gene lineates a priestly blood line, not the entire Jewish population. Thus it leaves the remain Jews outside of the priestly blood line…
Quote:
Anyway, to go on another tangent, Israel’s law of return is not necisarrily consistent with the Rabbinic Jewish Council’s definition of a Jew. In fact, admittedly the definition of a Jew is a struggle to define for us ourselves within the entire Jewish culture. We constantly debate with what it means to be a Jew (we spend lifetimes contemplating this question, so to sum it up in myramblings on a message board is too daunting of a task)…
Again, if useless then no need to respond… I have never claimed to be a vanguard, if that is how YOU interperet it, so be it. I have no crap to cut!
Quote:
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’ it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy…
It’s actually amazing how much information and concepts are brilliantly woven into this production. (btw the number 18 is of significace)
Regarding the slave trade, any participant should justly be condoned. However, the actions of individuals do not reflect an entire culture…
Quote:
Speaking of the financial issue, b/c of the wandering Jew complex we’ve faced throughout history, we’ve had to get into a trade which accommodated the possibility of maybe having to just pick up and move at the drop of a dime, thus banking and jewelry cutting have become prevalent in the past 800 years or so. We weren’t able to own land, to farm, or bake, or other trades we were banned from political forums, so money and banking became a prevalent profession. A profession which derived out of hate and oppression led to much success, thus leading to more hate and oppression…
If its useless then no need to respond.
However, it is remarkable to think that we were forced into an industry as a result of ate and oppresion. Then, as a result of our success in this industry, more hate has derived…
To answer your question, I don’t know, if you can provide some empirical data I’d be interested. Once that is compiled, I’d also be interested to see within the 12,000,000 Jews across the globe, whom the majority of the wealth lies… (it’ll probably be a concentrated few, thus feeding the notion that ‘one bad apple ruins a bunch’
Quote:
and there’s a lot more. So as it is a tendancy, and Rothschild is a huge player, he does not embody or personify Jews or Judaism as a whole. It would be like using Bush as a model for all Christians…
You infer that the Rothchilds are the ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate world finances and concoted this plan to create an independent state. He may have pulled strings to expidite the process, but Zionism had been alive and well for some 30-40 years before the Sikes-Picot/Balfour stuff… Zionism started as a labor movement in the 1880’s with communist ideals (thus a Kibbutz)… Only near the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of the British Empire did the Zionist movement to create a Jewish gain realistic momentum.
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
Quote:
is survived by the written word of the Book, or the Torah (in conjunction with the oral traditions as expressed in the Talmud)… Through a turbulent & violent past, when forced to give up all other material possessions, we protected the Torah above all, regardless of the persecution we had to endure, which has all in all bonded our ties to Israel, bottom line!
Good question… a classic chicken and egg question… Will the Messiah/messianic age come once we all have returned to the holy land, or will the coming of the messiah/messianic age bring us all back to the holy land?
Whatever the answer is, the modern day state of Israel was created out dire circumstances resulting in the need for a Jewish State.
[QUOTE/]
Other denominations in the Jewish faith (reform, conservative, moder-orthodox, conserva-dox, who have either Ashkenazi or Sephardic backrounds)
Quote:
However, that is the exception, and not the rule, as I should have placed a greater emphasis on ‘VIRTUALLY’ (in reference to being able to openly practice Judaism)….
The Truth is, aside from the US and Israel, there aren’t many places, we could name all of the places/cities with doing 10 minutes of a google search .
I should have also made a distinction that where we do exist, it tends to be in metropolitan areas.
Jews in France face a lot more anti-Semitism, through violence, vandelism, & prejudice than American or Israeli Jews. Walking down the street in a Kipa puts one has a much higher risk of getting beat up anywhere in Metropolitan france (definitely in the back country). If people know your Jewish in the Eastern Block you won’t get a job, you’ll be denied public benefits, education, ostracized, humiliated, and physically threatened.
Quote:
There are also parts of Latin America where it is not safe to openly flag being Jewish.
Quote:
Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation).
Good point. There was no need for the cheap shot.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/new_threat/default.asp
Here’s a pleasant story
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Default.htm
Go to any internet search engine and type in ‘anti-semetic violence in _(name country here) 200X) and there will be plenty of reading material
Quote:
No chance in Communist China (and it’s domain). Then there is the Entire Mid-East and most of N. Africa which isn’t very tolerant and being Jewish is a big no-no. Anyway…
The truth none-the less…but if so useless then there’s no need to respond.
Quote:
Another point I would like to address is the immigration issue for the Ethiopian Jews. There is no doubt that they (as well as other N. African or Persian Jews) are put under much more scrutiny when it comes to the law of return. This does not sit well with either of us, or a significant percentage of the Israeli population as well. There is already proactive measures being taken to rectify this situation…http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/...a/ix/101120053I actually feel a bigger problem is that once in Israel, the Ethiopian and other N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews do unfortunately face some institutional racism as well. Especially at the educational level, after their H.S. education and/or Military service, they are encouraged to pursue vocational training, as opposed to preperation for college entrance exams. I think these policies will shift, as greater numbers emigrate…
I agree with you on this point. It is abhorrent and unacceptable, and contrary to some of our most basic & fundamental ideals of our faith. I have no empirical data, just personal sentiments from discussions that I had with others when I was there this past January on this very subject.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian descent, then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
Quote:
It is obvious that we will go round & round & round & round on this issue of being semetic. As you pointed out, the etymology of Semetic does refer to a language or tounge from the current Mid-east region (Hebrew being the language of interest as far as this convo goes)…The Torah is written in which language?
I’m referring the biblical Hebrew.
The evolution of Language is relevant to this topic…
‘The language of the Hebrew Bible (roughly the same as the Old Testament) is similar to other Canaanite languages from the same region and period. The books of the Hebrew Bible fall into three categories: Torah (laws of Moses), Nevi’im (prophets), and Ketuvim (chronicles and scrolls). The Hebrew Bible is sometimes known as Tanakh, which is simply an acronym of Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, or as Miqra (from the Semitic root q-r-’ ‘read,’ the same root that underlies the name of the Muslim Qur’an). These books show clear changes in style that represent the language’s natural development over a period of around a millennium and a half. During this time the language remained the dominant spoken language of the Israelites. All texts from this period are thought to make up a single grammar and are usually referred to collectively as Ancient Hebrew, a.k.a. Biblical Hebrew. It apparently reflected the language of the tribe of Judah, Jerusalem being the center of government and culture. Until the discovery of the Mesha Stone (in closely related Moabite) and the Siloam Inscription in the late 19th century, and findings such as the Lachish Letters, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nash Papyrus in the 20th century, the Hebrew of this period was known only from biblical texts.’
This is an except from this site
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
As we trace the language we also follow the people, which leads to us as Jews today from all over the world.
Quote:
The dichotomy of the Y-Chormosomal Aaron going through male genes, in conjunction with Rabbinical Orthodox Talmudic law ascribing the mother to pass on the genes is an interesting point. Forgive my rash assumptions for I haven’t brushed up on my genetics, but can’t a women have a male son?
The Kohanim gene lineates a priestly blood line, not the entire Jewish population. Thus it leaves the remain Jews outside of the priestly blood line…
Quote:
Anyway, to go on another tangent, Israel’s law of return is not necisarrily consistent with the Rabbinic Jewish Council’s definition of a Jew. In fact, admittedly the definition of a Jew is a struggle to define for us ourselves within the entire Jewish culture. We constantly debate with what it means to be a Jew (we spend lifetimes contemplating this question, so to sum it up in myramblings on a message board is too daunting of a task)…
Again, if useless then no need to respond… I have never claimed to be a vanguard, if that is how YOU interperet it, so be it. I have no crap to cut!
Quote:
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’
it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy… It’s actually amazing how much information and concepts are brilliantly woven into this production. (btw the number 18 is of significace)
Regarding the slave trade, any participant should justly be condoned. However, the actions of individuals do not reflect an entire culture…
Quote:
Speaking of the financial issue, b/c of the wandering Jew complex we’ve faced throughout history, we’ve had to get into a trade which accommodated the possibility of maybe having to just pick up and move at the drop of a dime, thus banking and jewelry cutting have become prevalent in the past 800 years or so. We weren’t able to own land, to farm, or bake, or other trades we were banned from political forums, so money and banking became a prevalent profession. A profession which derived out of hate and oppression led to much success, thus leading to more hate and oppression…
If its useless then no need to respond.
However, it is remarkable to think that we were forced into an industry as a result of ate and oppresion. Then, as a result of our success in this industry, more hate has derived…
To answer your question, I don’t know, if you can provide some empirical data I’d be interested. Once that is compiled, I’d also be interested to see within the 12,000,000 Jews across the globe, whom the majority of the wealth lies… (it’ll probably be a concentrated few, thus feeding the notion that ‘one bad apple ruins a bunch’
Quote:
and there’s a lot more. So as it is a tendancy, and Rothschild is a huge player, he does not embody or personify Jews or Judaism as a whole. It would be like using Bush as a model for all Christians…
You infer that the Rothchilds are the ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate world finances and concoted this plan to create an independent state. He may have pulled strings to expidite the process, but Zionism had been alive and well for some 30-40 years before the Sikes-Picot/Balfour stuff… Zionism started as a labor movement in the 1880’s with communist ideals (thus a Kibbutz)… Only near the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of the British Empire did the Zionist movement to create a Jewish gain realistic momentum.
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
Quote:
is survived by the written word of the Book, or the Torah (in conjunction with the oral traditions as expressed in the Talmud)… Through a turbulent & violent past, when forced to give up all other material possessions, we protected the Torah above all, regardless of the persecution we had to endure, which has all in all bonded our ties to Israel, bottom line!
Good question… a classic chicken and egg question… Will the Messiah/messianic age come once we all have returned to the holy land, or will the coming of the messiah/messianic age bring us all back to the holy land?
Whatever the answer is, the modern day state of Israel was created out dire circumstances resulting in the need for a Jewish State.
JoMoDo said:
Quote:
Yes there are places in remote Latin America where there are thriving Crypto Orthodox Jews, and they are freely practice their religion
These Jews generally live in metropolitan areas. Over half the Jewish population in Argentina is in Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Cordoba, over 90% of Brazilian Jews are in San Paulo or Rio De Janero. Good luck finding any Jews outside of Mexico City in Mexico as well. Point being there is a significant (5% of the total Jewish population) living in 5-8 different cities in these aforementioned Latin American countries. Odds of finding a Jew (let alone one who openly practices) in remote areas of this countries are low.
Quote:
(there are other denomonations as well).
For the sake of this discussion I ask that you go back in and edit your entire post. On the real, I can't make heads or tails of what you just posted. Your quotes are misplaced, certain things doen't even have full quotations, you are quoting yourself without informing us that you are quoting yourself etc. Please, go back and make the corrections so the readers (and myself) won't be hindered when trying to read and answer the points.
Thankyou
EDIT: I think this might have to do with the site. If not the request still stands.
Yes there are places in remote Latin America where there are thriving Crypto Orthodox Jews, and they are freely practice their religion
These Jews generally live in metropolitan areas. Over half the Jewish population in Argentina is in Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Cordoba, over 90% of Brazilian Jews are in San Paulo or Rio De Janero. Good luck finding any Jews outside of Mexico City in Mexico as well. Point being there is a significant (5% of the total Jewish population) living in 5-8 different cities in these aforementioned Latin American countries. Odds of finding a Jew (let alone one who openly practices) in remote areas of this countries are low.
Quote:
(there are other denomonations as well).
How is this relevant to our topic?
[QUOTE/]
Other denominations in the Jewish faith (reform, conservative, moder-orthodox, conserva-dox, who have either Ashkenazi or Sephardic backrounds)
Quote:
However, that is the exception, and not the rule, as I should have placed a greater emphasis on ‘VIRTUALLY’ (in reference to being able to openly practice Judaism)….
The Truth is, aside from the US and Israel, there aren’t many places, we could name all of the places/cities with doing 10 minutes of a google search .
I should have also made a distinction that where we do exist, it tends to be in metropolitan areas.
Jews in France face a lot more anti-Semitism, through violence, vandelism, & prejudice than American or Israeli Jews. Walking down the street in a Kipa puts one has a much higher risk of getting beat up anywhere in Metropolitan france (definitely in the back country). If people know your Jewish in the Eastern Block you won’t get a job, you’ll be denied public benefits, education, ostracized, humiliated, and physically threatened.
Quote:
There are also parts of Latin America where it is not safe to openly flag being Jewish.
Quote:
Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation).
Good point. There was no need for the cheap shot.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/new_threat/default.asp
Here’s a pleasant story
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Default.htm
Go to any internet search engine and type in ‘anti-semetic violence in _(name country here) 200X) and there will be plenty of reading material
Quote:
No chance in Communist China (and it’s domain). Then there is the Entire Mid-East and most of N. Africa which isn’t very tolerant and being Jewish is a big no-no. Anyway…
The truth none-the less…but if so useless then there’s no need to respond.
Quote:
Another point I would like to address is the immigration issue for the Ethiopian Jews. There is no doubt that they (as well as other N. African or Persian Jews) are put under much more scrutiny when it comes to the law of return. This does not sit well with either of us, or a significant percentage of the Israeli population as well. There is already proactive measures being taken to rectify this situation…http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/...a/ix/101120053I actually feel a bigger problem is that once in Israel, the Ethiopian and other N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews do unfortunately face some institutional racism as well. Especially at the educational level, after their H.S. education and/or Military service, they are encouraged to pursue vocational training, as opposed to preperation for college entrance exams. I think these policies will shift, as greater numbers emigrate…
I agree with you on this point. It is abhorrent and unacceptable, and contrary to some of our most basic & fundamental ideals of our faith. I have no empirical data, just personal sentiments from discussions that I had with others when I was there this past January on this very subject.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian descent, then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
Quote:
It is obvious that we will go round & round & round & round on this issue of being semetic. As you pointed out, the etymology of Semetic does refer to a language or tounge from the current Mid-east region (Hebrew being the language of interest as far as this convo goes)…The Torah is written in which language?
I’m referring the biblical Hebrew.
The evolution of Language is relevant to this topic…
‘The language of the Hebrew Bible (roughly the same as the Old Testament) is similar to other Canaanite languages from the same region and period. The books of the Hebrew Bible fall into three categories: Torah (laws of Moses), Nevi’im (prophets), and Ketuvim (chronicles and scrolls). The Hebrew Bible is sometimes known as Tanakh, which is simply an acronym of Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, or as Miqra (from the Semitic root q-r-’ ‘read,’ the same root that underlies the name of the Muslim Qur’an). These books show clear changes in style that represent the language’s natural development over a period of around a millennium and a half. During this time the language remained the dominant spoken language of the Israelites. All texts from this period are thought to make up a single grammar and are usually referred to collectively as Ancient Hebrew, a.k.a. Biblical Hebrew. It apparently reflected the language of the tribe of Judah, Jerusalem being the center of government and culture. Until the discovery of the Mesha Stone (in closely related Moabite) and the Siloam Inscription in the late 19th century, and findings such as the Lachish Letters, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nash Papyrus in the 20th century, the Hebrew of this period was known only from biblical texts.’
This is an except from this site
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
As we trace the language we also follow the people, which leads to us as Jews today from all over the world.
Quote:
The dichotomy of the Y-Chormosomal Aaron going through male genes, in conjunction with Rabbinical Orthodox Talmudic law ascribing the mother to pass on the genes is an interesting point. Forgive my rash assumptions for I haven’t brushed up on my genetics, but can’t a women have a male son?
The Kohanim gene lineates a priestly blood line, not the entire Jewish population. Thus it leaves the remain Jews outside of the priestly blood line…
Quote:
Anyway, to go on another tangent, Israel’s law of return is not necisarrily consistent with the Rabbinic Jewish Council’s definition of a Jew. In fact, admittedly the definition of a Jew is a struggle to define for us ourselves within the entire Jewish culture. We constantly debate with what it means to be a Jew (we spend lifetimes contemplating this question, so to sum it up in myramblings on a message board is too daunting of a task)…
Again, if useless then no need to respond… I have never claimed to be a vanguard, if that is how YOU interperet it, so be it. I have no crap to cut!
Quote:
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’ it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy…
It’s actually amazing how much information and concepts are brilliantly woven into this production. (btw the number 18 is of significace)
Regarding the slave trade, any participant should justly be condoned. However, the actions of individuals do not reflect an entire culture…
Quote:
Speaking of the financial issue, b/c of the wandering Jew complex we’ve faced throughout history, we’ve had to get into a trade which accommodated the possibility of maybe having to just pick up and move at the drop of a dime, thus banking and jewelry cutting have become prevalent in the past 800 years or so. We weren’t able to own land, to farm, or bake, or other trades we were banned from political forums, so money and banking became a prevalent profession. A profession which derived out of hate and oppression led to much success, thus leading to more hate and oppression…
If its useless then no need to respond.
However, it is remarkable to think that we were forced into an industry as a result of ate and oppresion. Then, as a result of our success in this industry, more hate has derived…
To answer your question, I don’t know, if you can provide some empirical data I’d be interested. Once that is compiled, I’d also be interested to see within the 12,000,000 Jews across the globe, whom the majority of the wealth lies… (it’ll probably be a concentrated few, thus feeding the notion that ‘one bad apple ruins a bunch’
Quote:
and there’s a lot more. So as it is a tendancy, and Rothschild is a huge player, he does not embody or personify Jews or Judaism as a whole. It would be like using Bush as a model for all Christians…
You infer that the Rothchilds are the ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate world finances and concoted this plan to create an independent state. He may have pulled strings to expidite the process, but Zionism had been alive and well for some 30-40 years before the Sikes-Picot/Balfour stuff… Zionism started as a labor movement in the 1880’s with communist ideals (thus a Kibbutz)… Only near the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of the British Empire did the Zionist movement to create a Jewish gain realistic momentum.
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
Quote:
is survived by the written word of the Book, or the Torah (in conjunction with the oral traditions as expressed in the Talmud)… Through a turbulent & violent past, when forced to give up all other material possessions, we protected the Torah above all, regardless of the persecution we had to endure, which has all in all bonded our ties to Israel, bottom line!
Good question… a classic chicken and egg question… Will the Messiah/messianic age come once we all have returned to the holy land, or will the coming of the messiah/messianic age bring us all back to the holy land?
Whatever the answer is, the modern day state of Israel was created out dire circumstances resulting in the need for a Jewish State.
[QUOTE/]
Other denominations in the Jewish faith (reform, conservative, moder-orthodox, conserva-dox, who have either Ashkenazi or Sephardic backrounds)
Quote:
However, that is the exception, and not the rule, as I should have placed a greater emphasis on ‘VIRTUALLY’ (in reference to being able to openly practice Judaism)….
The Truth is, aside from the US and Israel, there aren’t many places, we could name all of the places/cities with doing 10 minutes of a google search .
I should have also made a distinction that where we do exist, it tends to be in metropolitan areas.
Jews in France face a lot more anti-Semitism, through violence, vandelism, & prejudice than American or Israeli Jews. Walking down the street in a Kipa puts one has a much higher risk of getting beat up anywhere in Metropolitan france (definitely in the back country). If people know your Jewish in the Eastern Block you won’t get a job, you’ll be denied public benefits, education, ostracized, humiliated, and physically threatened.
Quote:
There are also parts of Latin America where it is not safe to openly flag being Jewish.
Quote:
Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation).
Good point. There was no need for the cheap shot.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/new_threat/default.asp
Here’s a pleasant story
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Default.htm
Go to any internet search engine and type in ‘anti-semetic violence in _(name country here) 200X) and there will be plenty of reading material
Quote:
No chance in Communist China (and it’s domain). Then there is the Entire Mid-East and most of N. Africa which isn’t very tolerant and being Jewish is a big no-no. Anyway…
The truth none-the less…but if so useless then there’s no need to respond.
Quote:
Another point I would like to address is the immigration issue for the Ethiopian Jews. There is no doubt that they (as well as other N. African or Persian Jews) are put under much more scrutiny when it comes to the law of return. This does not sit well with either of us, or a significant percentage of the Israeli population as well. There is already proactive measures being taken to rectify this situation…http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/...a/ix/101120053I actually feel a bigger problem is that once in Israel, the Ethiopian and other N. African and Mid-Eastern Jews do unfortunately face some institutional racism as well. Especially at the educational level, after their H.S. education and/or Military service, they are encouraged to pursue vocational training, as opposed to preperation for college entrance exams. I think these policies will shift, as greater numbers emigrate…
I agree with you on this point. It is abhorrent and unacceptable, and contrary to some of our most basic & fundamental ideals of our faith. I have no empirical data, just personal sentiments from discussions that I had with others when I was there this past January on this very subject.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian descent, then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
Quote:
It is obvious that we will go round & round & round & round on this issue of being semetic. As you pointed out, the etymology of Semetic does refer to a language or tounge from the current Mid-east region (Hebrew being the language of interest as far as this convo goes)…The Torah is written in which language?
I’m referring the biblical Hebrew.
The evolution of Language is relevant to this topic…
‘The language of the Hebrew Bible (roughly the same as the Old Testament) is similar to other Canaanite languages from the same region and period. The books of the Hebrew Bible fall into three categories: Torah (laws of Moses), Nevi’im (prophets), and Ketuvim (chronicles and scrolls). The Hebrew Bible is sometimes known as Tanakh, which is simply an acronym of Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, or as Miqra (from the Semitic root q-r-’ ‘read,’ the same root that underlies the name of the Muslim Qur’an). These books show clear changes in style that represent the language’s natural development over a period of around a millennium and a half. During this time the language remained the dominant spoken language of the Israelites. All texts from this period are thought to make up a single grammar and are usually referred to collectively as Ancient Hebrew, a.k.a. Biblical Hebrew. It apparently reflected the language of the tribe of Judah, Jerusalem being the center of government and culture. Until the discovery of the Mesha Stone (in closely related Moabite) and the Siloam Inscription in the late 19th century, and findings such as the Lachish Letters, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nash Papyrus in the 20th century, the Hebrew of this period was known only from biblical texts.’
This is an except from this site
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
As we trace the language we also follow the people, which leads to us as Jews today from all over the world.
Quote:
The dichotomy of the Y-Chormosomal Aaron going through male genes, in conjunction with Rabbinical Orthodox Talmudic law ascribing the mother to pass on the genes is an interesting point. Forgive my rash assumptions for I haven’t brushed up on my genetics, but can’t a women have a male son?
The Kohanim gene lineates a priestly blood line, not the entire Jewish population. Thus it leaves the remain Jews outside of the priestly blood line…
Quote:
Anyway, to go on another tangent, Israel’s law of return is not necisarrily consistent with the Rabbinic Jewish Council’s definition of a Jew. In fact, admittedly the definition of a Jew is a struggle to define for us ourselves within the entire Jewish culture. We constantly debate with what it means to be a Jew (we spend lifetimes contemplating this question, so to sum it up in myramblings on a message board is too daunting of a task)…
Again, if useless then no need to respond… I have never claimed to be a vanguard, if that is how YOU interperet it, so be it. I have no crap to cut!
Quote:
However, despite your distaste, I would highly recommend a recently released film called ‘The Tribe’ its an 18 minute film (www.tribethefilm.com which deals with the complexities of being an ‘American Jew’
it is choc full o info. If anyone can find this free on the net, hook me up with a link, thanks, otherwise its $25 a copy… It’s actually amazing how much information and concepts are brilliantly woven into this production. (btw the number 18 is of significace)
Regarding the slave trade, any participant should justly be condoned. However, the actions of individuals do not reflect an entire culture…
Quote:
Speaking of the financial issue, b/c of the wandering Jew complex we’ve faced throughout history, we’ve had to get into a trade which accommodated the possibility of maybe having to just pick up and move at the drop of a dime, thus banking and jewelry cutting have become prevalent in the past 800 years or so. We weren’t able to own land, to farm, or bake, or other trades we were banned from political forums, so money and banking became a prevalent profession. A profession which derived out of hate and oppression led to much success, thus leading to more hate and oppression…
If its useless then no need to respond.
However, it is remarkable to think that we were forced into an industry as a result of ate and oppresion. Then, as a result of our success in this industry, more hate has derived…
To answer your question, I don’t know, if you can provide some empirical data I’d be interested. Once that is compiled, I’d also be interested to see within the 12,000,000 Jews across the globe, whom the majority of the wealth lies… (it’ll probably be a concentrated few, thus feeding the notion that ‘one bad apple ruins a bunch’
Quote:
and there’s a lot more. So as it is a tendancy, and Rothschild is a huge player, he does not embody or personify Jews or Judaism as a whole. It would be like using Bush as a model for all Christians…
You infer that the Rothchilds are the ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate world finances and concoted this plan to create an independent state. He may have pulled strings to expidite the process, but Zionism had been alive and well for some 30-40 years before the Sikes-Picot/Balfour stuff… Zionism started as a labor movement in the 1880’s with communist ideals (thus a Kibbutz)… Only near the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of the British Empire did the Zionist movement to create a Jewish gain realistic momentum.
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
Quote:
is survived by the written word of the Book, or the Torah (in conjunction with the oral traditions as expressed in the Talmud)… Through a turbulent & violent past, when forced to give up all other material possessions, we protected the Torah above all, regardless of the persecution we had to endure, which has all in all bonded our ties to Israel, bottom line!
Good question… a classic chicken and egg question… Will the Messiah/messianic age come once we all have returned to the holy land, or will the coming of the messiah/messianic age bring us all back to the holy land?
Whatever the answer is, the modern day state of Israel was created out dire circumstances resulting in the need for a Jewish State.
For the sake of this discussion I ask that you go back in and edit your entire post. On the real, I can't make heads or tails of what you just posted. Your quotes are misplaced, certain things doen't even have full quotations, you are quoting yourself without informing us that you are quoting yourself etc. Please, go back and make the corrections so the readers (and myself) won't be hindered when trying to read and answer the points.
Thankyou
EDIT: I think this might have to do with the site. If not the request still stands.
These Jews generally live in metropolitan areas. Over half the Jewish population in Argentina is in Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Cordoba, over 90% of Brazilian Jews are in San Paulo or Rio De Janero. Good luck finding any Jews outside of Mexico City in Mexico as well. Point being there is a significant (5% of the total Jewish population) living in 5-8 different cities in these aforementioned Latin American countries. Odds of finding a Jew (let alone one who openly practices) in remote areas of this countries are low.
How is this relevant to our topic?
[QUOTE/]
Other denominations in the Jewish faith (reform, conservative, moder-orthodox, conserva-dox, who have either Ashkenazi or Sephardic backrounds)
The Truth is, aside from the US and Israel, there aren’t many places, we could name all of the places/cities with doing 10 minutes of a google search .
I should have also made a distinction that where we do exist, it tends to be in metropolitan areas.
Jews in France face a lot more anti-Semitism, through violence, vandelism, & prejudice than American or Israeli Jews. Walking down the street in a Kipa puts one has a much higher risk of getting beat up anywhere in Metropolitan france (definitely in the back country). If people know your Jewish in the Eastern Block you won’t get a job, you’ll be denied public benefits, education, ostracized, humiliated, and physically threatened.
Good point. There was no need for the cheap shot.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/new_threat/default.asp
Here’s a pleasant story
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Default.htm
Go to any internet search engine and type in ‘anti-semetic violence in _(name country here) 200X) and there will be plenty of reading material
The truth none-the less…but if so useless then there’s no need to respond.
I agree with you on this point. It is abhorrent and unacceptable, and contrary to some of our most basic & fundamental beliefs and ideals of our faith. I have no empirical data, just personal sentiments from discussions that I had with others when I was there this past January on this very subject.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian/Arabic descent, (or Italian/Spainish, ect… then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
I’m referring to biblical Hebrew.
The evolution of Language is relevant to this topic…
‘The language of the Hebrew Bible (roughly the same as the Old Testament) is similar to other Canaanite languages from the same region and period. The books of the Hebrew Bible fall into three categories: Torah (laws of Moses), Nevi’im (prophets), and Ketuvim (chronicles and scrolls). The Hebrew Bible is sometimes known as Tanakh, which is simply an acronym of Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, or as Miqra (from the Semitic root q-r-’ ‘read,’ the same root that underlies the name of the Muslim Qur’an). These books show clear changes in style that represent the language’s natural development over a period of around a millennium and a half. During this time the language remained the dominant spoken language of the Israelites. All texts from this period are thought to make up a single grammar and are usually referred to collectively as Ancient Hebrew, a.k.a. Biblical Hebrew. It apparently reflected the language of the tribe of Judah, Jerusalem being the center of government and culture. Until the discovery of the Mesha Stone (in closely related Moabite) and the Siloam Inscription in the late 19th century, and findings such as the Lachish Letters, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nash Papyrus in the 20th century, the Hebrew of this period was known only from biblical texts.’
This is an except from this site
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
As we trace the language we also follow the people, which leads to the Jews of today from all over the world.
The Kohanim gene lineates a priestly blood line, not the entire Jewish population. Thus it leaves the remain Jews outside of the priestly blood line…
Again, if useless then no need to respond… I have never claimed to be a vanguard, if that is how YOU interperet it, so be it.. I have no crap to cut. It is not I who is in the pole position in this ‘witch hunt’
(witch hunt)
n
1. campaign against dissenters: an intensive systematic campaign directed against those who… hold different views
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
It’s actually amazing how much information and concepts are brilliantly woven into this production. (btw the number 18 is of significace)
Regarding the slave trade, any participant should justly be condoned and viewed with contempt. However, the actions of individuals do not reflect an entire culture…
If its useless then no need to respond.
However, it is remarkable to think that we were forced into an industry as a result of hate and oppresion. Then, as a result of our success in this industry, more hate has derived…
To answer your question, I don’t know, if you can provide some empirical data I’d be interested. Once that is compiled, I’d also be interested to see within the 12,000,000 Jews across the globe, with whom the majority of the wealth lies… (it’ll probably be a concentrated few, thus feeding the notion that ‘one bad apple ruins a bunch’
You infer that the Rothchilds are the ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate world finances and concoted this plan to create an independent state. He may have pulled strings to expidite the process, but Zionism had been alive and well for some 30-40 years before the Sikes-Picot/Balfour stuff… Zionism started as a labor movement in the 1880’s with communist ideals (thus a Kibbutz)… Only near the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of the British Empire did the Zionist movement to create a Jewish gain realistic momentum.
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
Good question… a classic chicken and egg question… Will the Messiah/messianic age come once we all have returned to the holy land, or will the coming of the messiah/messianic age bring us all back to the holy land?
Whatever the answer is, the modern day state of Israel was created out dire circumstances resulting in the need for a Jewish State.
[QUOTE/]
Other denominations in the Jewish faith (reform, conservative, moder-orthodox, conserva-dox, who have either Ashkenazi or Sephardic backrounds)
The Truth is, aside from the US and Israel, there aren’t many places, we could name all of the places/cities with doing 10 minutes of a google search .
I should have also made a distinction that where we do exist, it tends to be in metropolitan areas.
Jews in France face a lot more anti-Semitism, through violence, vandelism, & prejudice than American or Israeli Jews. Walking down the street in a Kipa puts one has a much higher risk of getting beat up anywhere in Metropolitan france (definitely in the back country). If people know your Jewish in the Eastern Block you won’t get a job, you’ll be denied public benefits, education, ostracized, humiliated, and physically threatened.
Good point. There was no need for the cheap shot.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/new_threat/default.asp
Here’s a pleasant story
http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Default.htm
Go to any internet search engine and type in ‘anti-semetic violence in _(name country here) 200X) and there will be plenty of reading material
The truth none-the less…but if so useless then there’s no need to respond.
I agree with you on this point. It is abhorrent and unacceptable, and contrary to some of our most basic & fundamental beliefs and ideals of our faith. I have no empirical data, just personal sentiments from discussions that I had with others when I was there this past January on this very subject.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian/Arabic descent, (or Italian/Spainish, ect…
then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned) I’m referring to biblical Hebrew.
The evolution of Language is relevant to this topic…
‘The language of the Hebrew Bible (roughly the same as the Old Testament) is similar to other Canaanite languages from the same region and period. The books of the Hebrew Bible fall into three categories: Torah (laws of Moses), Nevi’im (prophets), and Ketuvim (chronicles and scrolls). The Hebrew Bible is sometimes known as Tanakh, which is simply an acronym of Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim, or as Miqra (from the Semitic root q-r-’ ‘read,’ the same root that underlies the name of the Muslim Qur’an). These books show clear changes in style that represent the language’s natural development over a period of around a millennium and a half. During this time the language remained the dominant spoken language of the Israelites. All texts from this period are thought to make up a single grammar and are usually referred to collectively as Ancient Hebrew, a.k.a. Biblical Hebrew. It apparently reflected the language of the tribe of Judah, Jerusalem being the center of government and culture. Until the discovery of the Mesha Stone (in closely related Moabite) and the Siloam Inscription in the late 19th century, and findings such as the Lachish Letters, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nash Papyrus in the 20th century, the Hebrew of this period was known only from biblical texts.’
This is an except from this site
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
As we trace the language we also follow the people, which leads to the Jews of today from all over the world.
The Kohanim gene lineates a priestly blood line, not the entire Jewish population. Thus it leaves the remain Jews outside of the priestly blood line…
Again, if useless then no need to respond… I have never claimed to be a vanguard, if that is how YOU interperet it, so be it.. I have no crap to cut. It is not I who is in the pole position in this ‘witch hunt’
(witch hunt)
n
1. campaign against dissenters: an intensive systematic campaign directed against those who… hold different views
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
It’s actually amazing how much information and concepts are brilliantly woven into this production. (btw the number 18 is of significace)
Regarding the slave trade, any participant should justly be condoned and viewed with contempt. However, the actions of individuals do not reflect an entire culture…
If its useless then no need to respond.
However, it is remarkable to think that we were forced into an industry as a result of hate and oppresion. Then, as a result of our success in this industry, more hate has derived…
To answer your question, I don’t know, if you can provide some empirical data I’d be interested. Once that is compiled, I’d also be interested to see within the 12,000,000 Jews across the globe, with whom the majority of the wealth lies… (it’ll probably be a concentrated few, thus feeding the notion that ‘one bad apple ruins a bunch’
You infer that the Rothchilds are the ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate world finances and concoted this plan to create an independent state. He may have pulled strings to expidite the process, but Zionism had been alive and well for some 30-40 years before the Sikes-Picot/Balfour stuff… Zionism started as a labor movement in the 1880’s with communist ideals (thus a Kibbutz)… Only near the end of the Ottoman Empire and the beginning of the British Empire did the Zionist movement to create a Jewish gain realistic momentum.
http://kennedy.byu.edu/partners/NMELRC/handbooks/hebrew2.php
Good question… a classic chicken and egg question… Will the Messiah/messianic age come once we all have returned to the holy land, or will the coming of the messiah/messianic age bring us all back to the holy land?
Whatever the answer is, the modern day state of Israel was created out dire circumstances resulting in the need for a Jewish State.
Compare the above to your previous statement:
Please reconcile your statements because you are being inconsistant and have been for awhile. Since you say 90% of Brazilian jews live in San Paulo or Rio De Janero, go ahead and explain how these places (which are obviously known outside and considered tourist attractions) considered "remote."
Again, this info is useless.
The TRUTH is, aside from the Us and Israel, you have a large so-called jewish population in Russia, The United Kingdom, Ukraine, France and Canada. In total, the places I just listed comprise 2.5 to 4.2 million of the so-called jewry.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
Yet in another post you said they thrive in remote areas. Please make up your mind and stick to your guns.
Can you please validate this claim by citing a source? I would like to see a study between so-called jews in FRANCE and those in america and Israel. I would like to see recent studies comparing and contrasting the differences between them such as so-called anti semitism, violence, prejudice etc. If you CANNOT provide a chart/study comparing france to the other nations you have no point. But, for the sake of arguement, lets say your statement is true. Does your statement negate the fact that France has a large so-called jewish population, it is not a remote area, and despite all of the horrors commited against them they STILL call themselves jews and practice what they believe is judaism?
What am I supposed to do with this? Ok, I hit the links now what? HOW DO THESE LINKS PROVE YOUR POINT? The ONLY thing it does is show crimes commited against so-called jews. I have NOT denied violence, opression, discrimination against the so-called jews, however these links do NOT validate your claim that, "Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation)." I need to see something that shows an INCREASE of crime since a certain date AND, I need to see what actually caused the increase (was it centered around the passion, was it because of actions done by the state of israel against others etc?)
If I had not told you it was useless, you would have asked why I didn't respond. Unlike you I can actually GIVE an account to why I DON'T answer certain issues, however everything you have presented (that is remotely relevant) I have answered, and discredited.
So basically we both agree you are talking out the side of your neck. Ok lets move on, because I need to finish this so I can play some video games.
Jomodo, where is the scietific or historical evidence linking the so-called jews of today to the Diaspora of Judea?
I’m referring to biblical Hebrew.
Actually, it isn't because I have already said a lot of so-called jews speak languages other than biblical hebrew (yiddish being one of them.) In addition, I will show you why it doesn't really matter and the reason is very simple.
‘ The reason this is useless info, and the reason we shouldn't focus on the issue of language is because languages do change over time, BUT scientific AND historical evidence has linked the so-called jews to a DIFFERENT group/race of people and have attributed their so-called jewishness to the fact that they CONVERTED. Are you implying that because these people speak a certain language that they are in fact HEBREW (Hebrew as in the seed/bloodline of abraham?) If so this is a fallacy, and all you would have to do is look at the plight of african americans and look at what we have gone through. Would it be correct to say african americans are not related to africans because we don't speak the languages of africa?
Listen, I will ask you the question again. You seem to have a serious problem and want to distort what has been said. Let us for the sake of argument agree that the Cohen gene is real. The Cohen gene ONLY establishes the bloodline and priesthood of certain jews. Where does it leave the OTHER jews? If for the sake of argument we are saying the Cohens have been established as jews, what scientific evidence do you have to suggest that the remaining jews are still jews but outside of the bloodline? If you cannot answer this question why even present the cohen gene? It does NOT validate all so-called jews as it only confirms those who have cohen genes.
You have a lot of crap to cut. You are posting links that have nothing to do with anything, you have failed numerous times to validate your claim, you have, on more than ocassion, backpeddled and said "you should have said this." You have said "we have done this", and "we have done that", but truth is YOU have done NOTHING, yet you are here attemtping to refute my claims that YOU, and the majority of so-called jews are "faux."
faux
adjective [before noun]
1.not real, but made to look or seem real; false:
faux fur
a faux-brick wall
faux jew
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary © Cambridge University Press 2006.837418378
Again, no matter what symbolism is included or implied, 18 minutes is NOT enough time to give an unbiased (or even biased) account of the jews in question. Any participate should be condoned? I'll chalk that up as a typo. No one said the actions of individuals reflected the entire culture, however you need to cease attempts at making it seem as if the poor little jew boys are innocent.
I have already stated why I respond with useless info. Also, I would not say that the hate and oppression experienced by so-called jews is a result of being successful. A lot of hate comes from the mistreatment of the palastinian people, the policy of Israel and Israels dealings with america.
Actually I have a couple of links pertaining to thesubject and a couple of books. Here you can start with this:
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/relgwlth.htm
http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishhumor/a/challenges.htm
Also, I will REFRAIN from listing jewish owned banks, media outlets, jewish lobbyist etc.
Please answer the question. Who said the Rothschilds embodied or personified Jews or Judaism as a whole? In this topic/thread can you show me where I have said/inferred that the Rothschilds (PLURAL) are ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate the worlds finances? Your claim is unfounded and is not rooted in reality.
Who said it wasn't? Of course he pulled the strings, now can you explain why uganda was rejected as "the promised land?" Better yet, can you explain how the land was given away when the persons giving it away never owned it? Can you explain the current violation of the agreement and how the people of arab background still suffer in the land?
Actually, the groundwork for zionism can be traced to the events of France in 1791, and even Talmudism. Go and do your homework. :dead:
You said, "The Jewish Heritgage (descendents of the Hebrews of old)", and I replied with, "No scientific or historical proof to validate your claim...", but can you explain to me how a link dealing with the language is supposed to convince the board and myself that the so-called jews of today are blood relatives of the 12 (10) tribes of Israel?
The question is not a chicken and egg question. I will ask you again, are the jews supposed to be given the land by God or are they to recieve it from Man? Are they given the land because they have RETURNED to Ha-shem in terms of belief and deed? What does teh Torrah say about these matters?
False. The modern state of Israel was created because of Idolatry, wickedness, hatred for God, Hatred for fellow humans and greed.
Please reconcile your statements because you are being inconsistant and have been for awhile. Since you say 90% of Brazilian jews live in San Paulo or Rio De Janero, go ahead and explain how these places (which are obviously known outside and considered tourist attractions) considered "remote."
Again, this info is useless.
The TRUTH is, aside from the Us and Israel, you have a large so-called jewish population in Russia, The United Kingdom, Ukraine, France and Canada. In total, the places I just listed comprise 2.5 to 4.2 million of the so-called jewry.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
Yet in another post you said they thrive in remote areas. Please make up your mind and stick to your guns.
Can you please validate this claim by citing a source? I would like to see a study between so-called jews in FRANCE and those in america and Israel. I would like to see recent studies comparing and contrasting the differences between them such as so-called anti semitism, violence, prejudice etc. If you CANNOT provide a chart/study comparing france to the other nations you have no point. But, for the sake of arguement, lets say your statement is true. Does your statement negate the fact that France has a large so-called jewish population, it is not a remote area, and despite all of the horrors commited against them they STILL call themselves jews and practice what they believe is judaism?
What am I supposed to do with this? Ok, I hit the links now what? HOW DO THESE LINKS PROVE YOUR POINT? The ONLY thing it does is show crimes commited against so-called jews. I have NOT denied violence, opression, discrimination against the so-called jews, however these links do NOT validate your claim that, "Western Europe has been had a recent wave of violence and discrimination as well, (and has been on the steady rise since ‘The Passion’ not saying as a direct result, rather an observation)." I need to see something that shows an INCREASE of crime since a certain date AND, I need to see what actually caused the increase (was it centered around the passion, was it because of actions done by the state of israel against others etc?)
If I had not told you it was useless, you would have asked why I didn't respond. Unlike you I can actually GIVE an account to why I DON'T answer certain issues, however everything you have presented (that is remotely relevant) I have answered, and discredited.
So basically we both agree you are talking out the side of your neck. Ok lets move on, because I need to finish this so I can play some video games.
If an Ethiopian Jew were to produce off-spring with someone of Pesian/Arabic descent, (or Italian/Spainish, ect… then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
then the blood line is not as concentrated, but still existent. Over the course of thousands of years we end up with a myriad of different physical, biological, and genetic traits. This is actually what has happened as a result of the Diaspora out of Judea (then again and again through the various oppressed periods previously mentioned)
I’m referring to biblical Hebrew.
Actually, it isn't because I have already said a lot of so-called jews speak languages other than biblical hebrew (yiddish being one of them.) In addition, I will show you why it doesn't really matter and the reason is very simple.
‘ The reason this is useless info, and the reason we shouldn't focus on the issue of language is because languages do change over time, BUT scientific AND historical evidence has linked the so-called jews to a DIFFERENT group/race of people and have attributed their so-called jewishness to the fact that they CONVERTED. Are you implying that because these people speak a certain language that they are in fact HEBREW (Hebrew as in the seed/bloodline of abraham?) If so this is a fallacy, and all you would have to do is look at the plight of african americans and look at what we have gone through. Would it be correct to say african americans are not related to africans because we don't speak the languages of africa?
Listen, I will ask you the question again. You seem to have a serious problem and want to distort what has been said. Let us for the sake of argument agree that the Cohen gene is real. The Cohen gene ONLY establishes the bloodline and priesthood of certain jews. Where does it leave the OTHER jews? If for the sake of argument we are saying the Cohens have been established as jews, what scientific evidence do you have to suggest that the remaining jews are still jews but outside of the bloodline? If you cannot answer this question why even present the cohen gene? It does NOT validate all so-called jews as it only confirms those who have cohen genes.
You have a lot of crap to cut. You are posting links that have nothing to do with anything, you have failed numerous times to validate your claim, you have, on more than ocassion, backpeddled and said "you should have said this." You have said "we have done this", and "we have done that", but truth is YOU have done NOTHING, yet you are here attemtping to refute my claims that YOU, and the majority of so-called jews are "faux."
faux
adjective [before noun]
1.not real, but made to look or seem real; false:
faux fur
a faux-brick wall
faux jew
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary © Cambridge University Press 2006.837418378
Again, no matter what symbolism is included or implied, 18 minutes is NOT enough time to give an unbiased (or even biased) account of the jews in question. Any participate should be condoned? I'll chalk that up as a typo. No one said the actions of individuals reflected the entire culture, however you need to cease attempts at making it seem as if the poor little jew boys are innocent.
I have already stated why I respond with useless info. Also, I would not say that the hate and oppression experienced by so-called jews is a result of being successful. A lot of hate comes from the mistreatment of the palastinian people, the policy of Israel and Israels dealings with america.
Actually I have a couple of links pertaining to thesubject and a couple of books. Here you can start with this:
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/relgwlth.htm
http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishhumor/a/challenges.htm
Also, I will REFRAIN from listing jewish owned banks, media outlets, jewish lobbyist etc.
Please answer the question. Who said the Rothschilds embodied or personified Jews or Judaism as a whole? In this topic/thread can you show me where I have said/inferred that the Rothschilds (PLURAL) are ugly money grubbing bankers who dominate the worlds finances? Your claim is unfounded and is not rooted in reality.
Who said it wasn't? Of course he pulled the strings, now can you explain why uganda was rejected as "the promised land?" Better yet, can you explain how the land was given away when the persons giving it away never owned it? Can you explain the current violation of the agreement and how the people of arab background still suffer in the land?
Actually, the groundwork for zionism can be traced to the events of France in 1791, and even Talmudism. Go and do your homework. :dead:
You said, "The Jewish Heritgage (descendents of the Hebrews of old)", and I replied with, "No scientific or historical proof to validate your claim...", but can you explain to me how a link dealing with the language is supposed to convince the board and myself that the so-called jews of today are blood relatives of the 12 (10) tribes of Israel?
The question is not a chicken and egg question. I will ask you again, are the jews supposed to be given the land by God or are they to recieve it from Man? Are they given the land because they have RETURNED to Ha-shem in terms of belief and deed? What does teh Torrah say about these matters?
False. The modern state of Israel was created because of Idolatry, wickedness, hatred for God, Hatred for fellow humans and greed.
Quote:
I should have said ’a few’ or small handful as opposed to ’remote’ pardon my syntax error.
Dead issue then…
Yes this is true. However, aside from the US & Israel there are a few places in the world where it is safe to openly practice. (which was ultimately the point)
The semantics of my grammatical errors have detracted from my intent, resulting in the before mentioned inconsistencies. Looks like all and all, remote was simply the wrong choice of word.
Not tonight, but I will follow up…
The statement reinforces the fact that there are few places outside of the US and Israel where it is safe to openly practice.
Again, I will gather some data, and report back soon…
No
[/QUOTE]
Jomodo, where is the scietific or historical evidence linking the so-called jews of today to the Diaspora of Judea?
I should have said ’a few’ or small handful as opposed to ’remote’ pardon my syntax error.
Dead issue then…
Yes this is true. However, aside from the US & Israel there are a few places in the world where it is safe to openly practice. (which was ultimately the point)
The semantics of my grammatical errors have detracted from my intent, resulting in the before mentioned inconsistencies. Looks like all and all, remote was simply the wrong choice of word.
Not tonight, but I will follow up…
The statement reinforces the fact that there are few places outside of the US and Israel where it is safe to openly practice.
Again, I will gather some data, and report back soon…
No
[/QUOTE]
Jomodo, where is the scietific or historical evidence linking the so-called jews of today to the Diaspora of Judea?
^^^
The Talmud is the oral tradition which is comprised of the Mishna and Gammara. It is used in conjunction with the Torah. It is most easily understood as an ongoing dialogue between Rabbi's from the 2nd century up until today. It deals with Law, Ethics, concepts of religious practice ect... as with everything, Jewish practices have evolved. There are some prayers and practices which date back thousands of years, there are also new additions. There are many factions of Judaism and divergent & convergent beliefs throughout different branchs...
Uganda was rejected because it was logistically not practical and most likely not worked out, in terms of establishing an independent Jewish State.
After the Independence War and/or 67 war I don’t see the point to address obsolete ‘violations’ of the Balfour agreement.
http://www.trincoll.edu/~kclark2/the_city_of_jerusalem.htm
If you want to get nit-picky, the groundwork for Zionism started at the time of the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, and gained even greater momentum during Bar Khobah’s revolt.
Post French revolution did lay some groundwork, however it wasn’t until the 1880’s where the first generation of Aliya was made, and Zionism gained momentum which leads to Herzls involvment in the creation of a Jewish State...
It’s up to interpretation.
The current state of Israel was ultimately created out of necessity. I believe this would not have been possible without the intervention of Hashem during the war of indpendence. (an incredible victory)!
The Talmud is the oral tradition which is comprised of the Mishna and Gammara. It is used in conjunction with the Torah. It is most easily understood as an ongoing dialogue between Rabbi's from the 2nd century up until today. It deals with Law, Ethics, concepts of religious practice ect... as with everything, Jewish practices have evolved. There are some prayers and practices which date back thousands of years, there are also new additions. There are many factions of Judaism and divergent & convergent beliefs throughout different branchs...
Uganda was rejected because it was logistically not practical and most likely not worked out, in terms of establishing an independent Jewish State.
After the Independence War and/or 67 war I don’t see the point to address obsolete ‘violations’ of the Balfour agreement.
http://www.trincoll.edu/~kclark2/the_city_of_jerusalem.htm
If you want to get nit-picky, the groundwork for Zionism started at the time of the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, and gained even greater momentum during Bar Khobah’s revolt.
Post French revolution did lay some groundwork, however it wasn’t until the 1880’s where the first generation of Aliya was made, and Zionism gained momentum which leads to Herzls involvment in the creation of a Jewish State...
It’s up to interpretation.
The current state of Israel was ultimately created out of necessity. I believe this would not have been possible without the intervention of Hashem during the war of indpendence. (an incredible victory)!