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May 13, 2002
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#1
by Robert Fisk in Beirut
Republished from The Independent


President Bush is expected to announce on Wednesday that Syrian - and perhaps Lebanese - military intelligence officers were involved in Mr. Hariri's death.


The bomb also killed 18 others.



As the United Nations’ Irish-led special investigation team here prepares to report that the Lebanese authorities have covered up evidence of the murder on 14 February of the former prime minister Rafik Hariri, his two sons have fled Lebanon after hearing that they too are in danger of assassination.

Mr Hariri’s elder son, Bahar, has flown to Geneva while Saad has left hurriedly for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, after warnings that they could be the next targets of their father’s assassins.

President George Bush is expected to announce on Wednesday that Syrian – and perhaps Lebanese – military intelligence officers were involved in Mr Hariri’s death; the bombing killed 18 other civilians.

The UN’s Irish, Egyptian and Moroccan investigation team has now been joined by three Swiss bomb experts following the discovery that many of the smashed vehicles in Hariri’s convoy were moved from the scene of the massacre only hours afterwards – and before there was time for an independent investigation. Yesterday, frogmen were sent into the sea off the Beirut Corniche to recover the wreckage of the one car in the Hariri convoy that was not taken away by the authorities because it was blasted over a hotel wall into the Mediterranean by the force of the explosion. If they successfully recover parts of the vehicle, they may be able to discover the nature of the explosives. First reports that Hariri was killed by a car bomb are now being challenged by evidence that the explosives – estimated at 600kg – could have been buried beneath the seafront avenue.

A unique photograph handed to The Independent in Beirut – which is now also in the hands of the UN investigators – was taken on the afternoon of 12 February, about 36 hours before the bombing. It shows a drain cover in the road at the exact spot where the explosion was to tear a 30-foot crater in the highway, instantly killing Hariri and many of his bodyguards.

The section of roadway is marked off by “no parking” signs which have been left there innocently by staff of the nearby HSBC bank. But a mysterious object can be seen on the left edge of the drain cover. Both the metal cover and an extensive area of roadway around it were atomised by the bomb.

The picture also shows two buildings which the UN police officers are investigating as possible locations of the bomber who detonated the explosives: one is on top of the circular building in the centre of the photo – which houses a Beirut hotel as well as a Lebanese army retirement fund office – and the other is on top of the war-damaged Holiday Inn (far right) which has been empty for more than a decade. The balloon in the centre of the photograph regularly takes tourists on sightseeing tours of Beirut.

Some members of the Hariri family have been told that the report of the UN inquiry team will be so devastating that it will force a full international investigation of the murder of “Mr Lebanon” and his entourage, perhaps reaching to the higher echelons of the Syrian and Lebanese governments.

Hariri opposed the continued Syrian military presence in Lebanon and many Lebanese have blamed the Syrians for his murder. The UN investigators have become convinced that there was a cover-up of evidence at the very highest levels of the Lebanese and Syrian intelligence authorities.

In their search for information, at least one Irish police officer has now interviewed Brigadier General Rustum Ghazale, the senior Syrian army intelligence officer in Lebanon, at his headquarters in Aanjar. He is believed to have pointed out to the police that his job was only to safeguard Syrian forces in the country – an assertion which will require more than a few grains of Syrian salt to be believed.



President Bush’s expected remarks on Wednesday will follow two extraordinary days of public demonstrations in Beirut. In the first, today, opposition politicians will try to gather a million followers to protest against the government’s failure to resign and to reveal the truth about Hariri’s murder – as well as to dwarf last Tuesday’s half-million strong Hizbollah rally in support of Syria. The second, by pro-Syrian demonstrators, is planned to march to the US embassy in the Aukar suburb of east Beirut.



All this is being organised while violent rumours sweep Beirut. One says that the Syrians have been handing out weapons to pro-Syrian Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila in Beirut and Ein el-Helwe in Sidon.

Investigations by The Independent strongly suggest that this in untrue; the Palestinians have quite enough weapons without being resupplied, and many of them would like to be disarmed to end lethal inter-Palestinian factional fighting. But on Saturday night in the Sabra camp, someone knifed to death an elderly Syrian fruit-seller in what was an obvious attempt to provoke violence.
 
Jul 18, 2002
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#2
All going according to plan;
-------------------------------------

"In Spring 2000...the PNAC debuted their 76-page blueprint to achieve world domination. "Rebuilding America's Defenses" became the PNAC's manifesto, detailing the ideal level of military power to specifically eliminate the hostile regimes of Iraq, Iran, Syria and North Korea and endorsing preemptive strikes against them, tradition be damned. Iraq was given star billing as Control Central for their Mid-East base of operations.

"At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s grand strategy should aim to preserve and extend this advantageous positionas far into the future as possible."

"American landpower is the essential link in the chain that translates U.S. military supremacy into American geopolitical preeminence."

"We cannot allow North Korea, Iran, Iraq or similar states to undermine American leadership'.

"While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."


http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/PNAC_101
 
Dec 7, 2004
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Good shit 2-0 sicc... Im lebanese so i can assure y'all that the lebanese ppl want syria out, They've killed too many of our leaders..Just when beirut was back to bein peacefull again..syria kills another leader to make it seem like Lebanon cant handle it self...

people can bash bush all you want, but if hes gonna bring democracy to the Middle East, more power to him
 
Dec 18, 2002
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#7
Malkorasoul said:
Good shit 2-0 sicc... Im lebanese so i can assure y'all that the lebanese ppl want syria out, They've killed too many of our leaders..Just when beirut was back to bein peacefull again..syria kills another leader to make it seem like Lebanon cant handle it self...

people can bash bush all you want, but if hes gonna bring democracy to the Middle East, more power to him
"MORE POWER TO HIM" indeed
 
Dec 7, 2004
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#8
LOL...he wont ever get a peace prize cuz he cant get his own country runnin right...Domesticly bush is a shit head...but i cant complain about what hes doin to the middle east...for all of you that dont know, Calling an arab country corrupt would be a compliment, They run shit like a mafia, i've seen the destruction caused over there (by syria), trust me it aint worth seein,

democracy is in the best interest of the arab world, thing is arabs by nature are way to stubborn to realize that.

But one thing the lebanese dont want is too much Western Influence, Bush might over step the line on that one, They [lebanon] are intent on making it a 100% lebanese affair,
They've had foreign influence for the last 20 years so they want real indpendence...
 
May 13, 2002
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#9
So I suppose you think Bush spread Democracy in Iraq? 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians since the start of a war is sure democracy. :rolleyes:

Serious questions: Do you honestly think Bush is concerned with Democracy in Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq or anywhere else in the Middle East for that matter? Do you believe Bush is trying to help these countries? And lastly, what do you think the true agenda is for the Bush Administration in the Middle East?
 
Jan 2, 2003
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#10
look at the the countries we are trippin over most recently...

IRAQ(WE INVADED), IRAN, & VENEZUELA....

LOL.....what do these 3 countries have in common???

OIL.....and all part of OPEC

u guys need to understand this....OPEC is a HUGE/MAJOR obstacle to the US...and to capitalism....

CAPITALISM is hindered by these cartels....we have NO CONTROL over oil prices...and it fucks with our economy big-time...

look at what uses Oil.....i mean pretty much evrything!!!...haha....so when oil is a rediculous price...it hurts EVERYTHING...

so how do we get around OPEC w/o drilling in ALASKA or sumthin like that? I mean THEY CONTROL oil....

invade countrys and setup puppets governments....OR...support an overthrow/assassination.......in favor of a US-friendly government

here is an article about VENEZUELA....its very interesting because CHAVEZ has been working on ideas not to send oil to the US anymore...and other ways not to deal with the US...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_defending_chavez

yaimean??....u guys dont see this??....im not sure HOW MUCH MORE OBVIOUS IT COULD BE THAT THE U.S. IS TRYING TO TAKEOVER THE OIL MARKET??????????????

BUT LET ME GUESS....its over "Freedom" & "democracy" right??....

i mean...surely we wouldnt want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud(words of condoleeza rice pre-IRAQ war)
 
Dec 7, 2004
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#11
I think that bush does care for democracy...All american presidents do, that is mostly the reason why any president in the history of the United States ever sent troops over to foriegn countries...But i do agree that he cares for oil and other personal gains too....When it comes down to it, I can care less what bush's intentions are, the fact is, Democracy is going to be a product of all this shit happening....I've discussed this with really experianced middle easteners, people that put in time and effort into researching this matter and the majority support bush's plan...

Too many family members have died for me not to support his cause in the middle east, the old shit wasnt working obviously...What ever the intentions or casualties the mid east may suffer, in the end it will be better than before...100,000 deaths to civilians is the price you pay to correct a severly corrupt government...

Remember y'all these countries are ran by religion more than anything, islam is the law of the land, and y'all havent seen how islam really fucks people over, ive seen it first hand, the more goverments set up that separates religion and state the better, unless you want these countrys to harbor terrorist, cuz i can assure you they do (explains why i get checked up at the airport twice as much as the avg traveler, the gov knows that these countries produce them, and its proven)


i dont see why all of you are complaining about setting up pro american countries in the middle east, I garentee that most of you cursed all arabs when u saw them dancing in the streets after 911 attacks... I respect your doubts on Bush 2-0 sixx but i dont totaly see eye to eye with you on Bush's intentions, I like to think there is more good in people than bad..(it maybe my weakness but thats for god to judge)
 
May 13, 2002
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#12
Ok, first off, I don’t think you were including me in that statement about cursing Arabs, but just in case let me clarify- I’ve never said one bad thing about Arabic people on this board prior to 9/11 or after. In fact, a number of my folks and closest comrades are Persian.

I think that bush does care for democracy...All american presidents do
We can argue about this statement all day and neither one of us could prevail since it is an opinion not based on facts however I will say I think you have a very distorted view of American politicians and their true motives and agendas.

that is mostly the reason why any president in the history of the United States ever sent troops over to foriegn countries...
100% B.S.
Tell me comrade, which wars or invasions were because America wanted to spread democracy?

Was it when we overthrew and assassinated the DEMOCRATICALLY elected President in Chile and placed a ruthless dictator in his place who killed hundreds of thousands of people for over 17 years? Is that spreading democracy?

Was it when we overthrew the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Prime Minister of Iran (Mossadeq)?
(We really made Iran a better place, didn’t we?) Was this about Democracy or securing Iran’s oil resources?

Was it when we helped overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Syria? Was this spreading democracy?

Was it when we backed and funded Israel to invade Lebanon that killed over 20,000 people? Democracy?

Was it when we overthrew the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of Guatemala? Is that spreading democracy?

I can go on for hours.

When it comes down to it, I can care less what bush's intentions are, the fact is, Democracy is going to be a product of all this shit happening....
You honestly believe that? What about Iraq? You think the elections are all fine and dandy, dispite the continuing violence and daily bombings? I see a bright future for Iraq /cough***civil war****cough.

've discussed this with really experianced middle easteners
Really, me too.
Thing is though comrade, it doesn’t matter if someone is a middle easterner or not. That’s like a middle easterner saying he spoke to some experienced Americans so he knows the deal.
100,000 deaths to civilians is the price you pay to correct a severly corrupt government...
Wow, you’re really coldhearted. Just remember over half of those 100,000 dead are children and many more will die in the upcoming years.

emember y'all these countries are ran by religion more than anything, islam is the law of the land, and y'all havent seen how islam really fucks people over, ive seen it first hand, the more goverments set up that separates religion and state the better, unless you want these countrys to harbor terrorist, cuz i can assure you they do (explains why i get checked up at the airport twice as much as the avg traveler, the gov knows that these countries produce them, and its proven)
I will disagree slightly and say that it’s not Islam that fucks them over, it is the Right-Wing Islamic Extremists that fuck them over.

I respect your doubts on Bush 2-0 sixx but i dont totaly see eye to eye with you on Bush's intentions, I like to think there is more good in people than bad..(it maybe my weakness but thats for god to judge)
That’s cool bro, I don’t expect everyone to see eye-to-eye but I hope you will at the very least take what I say into consideration.
 
Dec 7, 2004
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#13
Good post, I wasnt including you in those statements i was generally describing the sentiment of Americans after the attacks...And those are good examples, they are also isolated incidents, I believe that deep down, the desire to spread democracy is something America wants to do, and like you said its an opinion, and im not down to argue about that...No country is perfect, America has it's share of fucked up Politicians which lead to examples that you have stated...

Wow, you’re really coldhearted. Just remember over half of those 100,000 dead are children and many more will die in the upcoming years.

not really cold hearted considering that unrest in the middle east is the main cause of death in my family, ive comed to the reality that it has to happen, especialy with these types of people.

Was it when we backed and funded Israel to invade Lebanon that killed over 20,000 people? Democracy?
that was a delicate situation, Lebanon was in total chaos, lemmie explain, The christian lebanese made up the majority of the population back then, and they wanted to keep lebanon a strictly lebanese country, while the muslims (who place religion over nationality) wanted to bring in the palestinians to stick with their muslims brothers, and arafat took advantage of the invation and tried to take lebanon over...obviously the christians were outnumberd (Lebanese Christians vs. Muslims from all difffernt countries) so they needed help to drive the palestinians out and weakin the muslims all to keep their country intact. The christian lebanese needed israel to come in and wipe out some of the muslims, palestians...If israel didnt invade lebanon, lebanon would have became palestine...So naturaly the christians werent gonna lay down and let Arafat take shit over, they were in dire need of help.


Was it when we helped overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president of Syria? Was this spreading democracy?
I hope when you typed "Syria" that it was just a typo...Syria and Democracy are two totaly different things lol...I can tell my cousin (who used to live in syria) to email you 100's of storys of how law inforcement officials beat the shit out of him becuase he didnt want to go to the mosque (mind you he's christian)...thats not a democracy...Syria is a glorified monarchy, Hafez Al assad was president from 1970 till he died, they had a extremely corrupt elections, His son is appointed president, his son is no more than a puppet, he is there for name recognition while his fathers men run the country.


You honestly believe that? What about Iraq? You think the elections are all fine and dandy, dispite the continuing violence and daily bombings? I see a bright future for Iraq /cough***civil war****cough.
They arent fine and dandy, and i wasnt expecting for it to be, Iraq was severly fucked in sadams regime (i kno that theres 30,000 iraqis in san diego alone that left becuase of that, and the shia in iraq wanted change),and it would be a pure miracle for it to work fine and dandy...The Iraqi future cant be assesed right now, give it more time, bush was ignorant in thinking he can do it so quick.


I do agree with your assesment that US is out for personal gain, and its a shame that lives have to be lost for it to happen, you made good points which brought some doubt in my mind, but im willing to wait and see what happens,As of now there is no other choice, its either the middle east stays with midevil style government or reforms and changes to fit the future...If arabs were allowed to speak, they would ask for more western style government, but if they do the car bombs, shootings, executions start comin around
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#14
The 100,000 civilian death toll is less that what would have been had Saddam remained in power, and drastically less than the toll of his time spent in power.

We are stealing oil, yes, from people who stole oil (by way of murder) from others.

Pointing out 100,000 dead civilians is meaningless in debating democracy in Iraq. It has nothing to do with democracy. This is just the process by which this type of goal is acheived. The United Nations was estimating a death toll of up to 500,000 before the invasion took place.

Saddam and Iraq before U.S. intervention:

The killing of Sunni religious leaders such as Abdul Aziz Al Badri the Imam of Dragh district mosque in Baghdad in 1969, Al Shaikh Nadhum Al Asi from Ubaid tribe in Northern Iraq, Al Shiakh Al Shahrazori, Al Shaikh Umar Shaqlawa, Al Shiakh Rami Al Kirkukly, Al Shiakh Mohamad Shafeeq Al Badri, Abdul Ghani Shindala.

The arrest of hundreds of Iraqi Islamic activists and the execution of five religious leaders in 1974.

The arrest of thousand of religious people who rose up against the regime and the killing of hundreds of them in the popular uprising of 1977 in which Ayatollah Mohamad Baqir Al Hakim the leader of SCIRI was sentenced to life imprisonment.

The arrest, torture and executions of tens of religious scholars and Islamic activists in such as Qasim Shubbar, Qasim Al Mubarqaa in 1979.

The arrest, torture and execution of Ayatollah Mohamad baqir Al Sadr and his sistre Amina Al Sadr (Bint Al Huda) in 1980.

The war against Iran in 1980 in which hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed, and many doubles of that number were handicapped or missed.

The arrest of 90 members of Al Hakim family and the execution of 16 members of that family in 1983 to put pressure on Ayatollah Mohamad Baqir Al Hakim to stop his struggle against Saddam's regime.

Using chemical weapons in the North and the South the details of which are below.

The occupation of Kuwait which resulted in killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and injuring many doubles of that number in addition to the destruction of Iraq.

The assassination of many opposition figures outside Iraq such Haj Sahal Al Salman in UAE in 1981, Sami Mahdi and Ni'ma Mohamad in Pakistan in 1987, Sayed Mahdi Al Hakim in Sudan in 1988, and Shaikh Talib Al Suhail in Lebanon in 1994.

The execution of 21 Bath Party leaders in 1979 in Iraq , the assassination of Hardan Al Tikriti former defence Minister in Kuwait in 1973, and the former Prime- Minister Abdul Razzaq Al naef in London 1978.​

Why did we invade? LOL!
 
Jul 18, 2002
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#15
Nitro the Guru said:
Why did we invade? LOL!

I remember the reason that 'We' the American and Global public was told the reason for invading was, because Iraq had "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and that "Iraq was an imminent threat to the U.S."

But hey, I could have mis-understood what they meant............but I highly doubt it.
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#16
Dmac_nasty said:
I remember the reason that 'We' the American and Global public was told the reason for invading was, because Iraq had "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and that "Iraq was an imminent threat to the U.S."

But hey, I could have mis-understood what they meant............but I highly doubt it.
Thats not why we went in, thats how we got in. Know the difference.
 
May 13, 2002
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#18
.And those are good examples, they are also isolated incidents,
No, they’re not isolated incidents. In fact, they’re common place.

Peep this thread which focuses on Latin America alone. Read what myself & coldblooded contributed to the thread.

Surely you can’t say that these were just some rare isolated incidents? (We’re talking about the entire continent of Latin America and the Caribbean.)

Just a couple years ago the U.S was involved in a Coup that successfully overthrew democratically elected President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela for two days, fortunately though, the people rose up in the millions and demanded Chavez’s safe return. Now that’s democracy at its finest.

Not only are covert and overt military operations used to topple undesired, democratically elected president’s common place with the U.S, other methods are even more common to drastically paralyze a country such as the World Bank & IMF and other forms of restrictions such as sanctions etc.

No other country in the world can even come close to America’s dirty track record.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the US gives two shits about Democracy. It’s about control and globalization, Imperialism, power and resources. Sure, they paint real pretty pictures when it comes to the mid east by constantly using the words “Democracy” and “Freedom” and other pleasant sounding words. The truth of the matter is that the US has many interests in the Mid East such as natural resources and planting strategic military locations and installing ‘US friendly’ governments in power.
I want you to look

read this thread about the occupation in Iraq and the money that is being made.

I hope when you typed "Syria" that it was just a typo
No, it was not a typo. The US DID overthrow a democratically elected president in Syria, way before the examples you gave. It occurred in 1950’s and was a direct result in the instability of Syria the following years.

The Iraqi future cant be assesed right now, give it more time, bush was ignorant in thinking he can do it so quick.
Well, we can analyze the current state and by using logical analysis’s, we can accurately predict what is to come in the future.

but im willing to wait and see what happens,
Yes, you should and I hope you remember the warnings and predictions by people like me in the future.
If arabs were allowed to speak, they would ask for more western style government
I SERIOUSLY disagree with this statement. Most of the Arabic population would like sort of a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism, similar to certain European countries. The vast majority, who live in Oil rich countries, feel that Oil, among some other industries, should be nationalized and the wealth spread amongst the people and not rich capitalist oil companies.

I do agree that the ones who live in oppressive Islamic states want change, but I wouldn’t necessarally say they want a western style government and I think its safe to say many are anti-american
 
May 13, 2002
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#19
NITRO said:
The 100,000 civilian death toll is less that what would have been had Saddam remained in power, and drastically less than the toll of his time spent in power.
Is that so Nitro? You got some stats that suggest over 100,000 civilians were being killed in a two year span under Saddam’s rule?

We are stealing oil, yes, from people who stole oil (by way of murder) from others.
*With our permission*

Pointing out 100,000 dead civilians is meaningless in debating democracy in Iraq. It has nothing to do with democracy. This is just the process by which this type of goal is acheived. The United Nations was estimating a death toll of up to 500,000 before the invasion took place.
And why was that Nitro? Perhaps it was because of the sanctions that were placed on Iraq and the basic infrastructure that we destroyed from the first gulf war?

You can post the horrible things Saddam did before the illegal US occupation and I’ll agree with most of them; however the argument that was being made is that we invaded Iraq to spread democracy. My argument is that it has NOTHING to do with spreading democracy and you should know this. You already acknowledge that we are “stealing” oil and their resources. You know damn well if Iraq was rich in oil and other resources we would have never invaded.
 
Jan 9, 2004
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#20
2-0-Sixx said:
by Robert Fisk in Beirut
Republished from The Independent


President Bush is expected to announce on Wednesday that Syrian - and perhaps Lebanese - military intelligence officers were involved in Mr. Hariri's death.

It's Thursday and President Bush hasn't spoken about Hariri's death. Maybe this article is just bullshit?