Socialism and Religion
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I am. I think i have a different view on the subject, at least in part But i am also still formulating my opinions on the subject. i was using the oportunity for discourse and criticism/self-criticism with like minded individuals.
"As we say, dust will accumulate if a room is not cleaned regularly, our faces will get dirty if they are not washed regularly. Our comrades' minds and our Party's work may also collevt dust, and also need sweeping and washing. The proverb "running water is never stale and a door-hinge is never worm-eaten" means that constant motionprevents the inroads of germs and other organism. . . . To feat neither criticism nor self-criticism . . . this is the only effective way to prevent all kinds of political dust and germs from contaminating the minds of our comrades and the body of our party" - Quotation from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung "On Coalition Government" (April 24, 1945), Selected Works, Vol. III, pp. 316-317
"As we say, dust will accumulate if a room is not cleaned regularly, our faces will get dirty if they are not washed regularly. Our comrades' minds and our Party's work may also collevt dust, and also need sweeping and washing. The proverb "running water is never stale and a door-hinge is never worm-eaten" means that constant motionprevents the inroads of germs and other organism. . . . To feat neither criticism nor self-criticism . . . this is the only effective way to prevent all kinds of political dust and germs from contaminating the minds of our comrades and the body of our party" - Quotation from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung "On Coalition Government" (April 24, 1945), Selected Works, Vol. III, pp. 316-317
Selected quotes V. I. Lenin - The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion:
"The party of the proletariat demands that the state should declare religion a private matter, but does not regard the fight against the opium of the people, the fight against religious superstitions, etc., as a “private matter”. The opportunists distort the question to mean that the Social-Democratic Party regards religion as a private matter! "
"This point in the Erfurt Programme has come to be interpreted as meaning that we Social-Democrats, our Party, consider religion to be a private matter, that religion is a private matter for us as Social-Democrats, for us as a party. Without entering into a direct controversy with this opportunist view, Engels in the nineties deemed it necessary to oppose it resolutely in a positive, and not a polemical form. To wit: Engels did this in the form of a statement, which he deliberately underlined, that Social-Democrats regard religion as a private matter in relation to the state, but not in relation to themselves, not in relation to Marxism, and not in relation to the workers’ party."
"We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion. "
"And he must not succumb . . . to the philistinism and opportunism of the petty bourgeois or liberal intellectual, who boggles at the struggle against religion, forgets that this is his duty, reconciles himself to belief in God, and is guided not by the interests of the class struggle but by the petty and mean consideration of offending nobody, repelling nobody and scaring nobody—by the sage rule: “live and let live”, etc., etc. "
"A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could. "
read the whole thing here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm
"The party of the proletariat demands that the state should declare religion a private matter, but does not regard the fight against the opium of the people, the fight against religious superstitions, etc., as a “private matter”. The opportunists distort the question to mean that the Social-Democratic Party regards religion as a private matter! "
"This point in the Erfurt Programme has come to be interpreted as meaning that we Social-Democrats, our Party, consider religion to be a private matter, that religion is a private matter for us as Social-Democrats, for us as a party. Without entering into a direct controversy with this opportunist view, Engels in the nineties deemed it necessary to oppose it resolutely in a positive, and not a polemical form. To wit: Engels did this in the form of a statement, which he deliberately underlined, that Social-Democrats regard religion as a private matter in relation to the state, but not in relation to themselves, not in relation to Marxism, and not in relation to the workers’ party."
"We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion. "
"And he must not succumb . . . to the philistinism and opportunism of the petty bourgeois or liberal intellectual, who boggles at the struggle against religion, forgets that this is his duty, reconciles himself to belief in God, and is guided not by the interests of the class struggle but by the petty and mean consideration of offending nobody, repelling nobody and scaring nobody—by the sage rule: “live and let live”, etc., etc. "
"A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could. "
read the whole thing here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm
^^ Saying my comeback is that of a 13 year old = a 14 year old comeback. Be real.
I extract a plot line and a central theme of a movie.....this person over here extracts a name and a photo, goes about Google'ing up a picture, and stares at my own picture for who knows how long while Photoshopping the other one in. That is seriously weird.
Although i must admit, not as strange as the person who Google'd a gay porn website and a dildo for use in a Photoshopped Tadou pic.
I extract a plot line and a central theme of a movie.....this person over here extracts a name and a photo, goes about Google'ing up a picture, and stares at my own picture for who knows how long while Photoshopping the other one in. That is seriously weird.
Although i must admit, not as strange as the person who Google'd a gay porn website and a dildo for use in a Photoshopped Tadou pic.
I’ve been thinking about what you posted ColdBlooded.
A part of me would like it a necessity for members to be atheist, but on the other hand I believe it may hurt the movement.
I recently discussed religion and Marxism with several comrades and the overall agreement is we should permit religious members into Socialist parties as long as they have the same revolutionary interests. Once they become members, we should educate them on the history and any injustices of their specific religion, but at the same time not force them to give up their beliefs.
Personally, I suppose a member can be a true Marxist and still believe in god. The reason is because I have met a few people who truly believe in science and contain a very rational approach on life in general, but they aren’t truly religious; they don’t go to church or follow a specific religion or read the bible, etc. These types of people may be repelled by any firm policy of Atheism, when in actuality they may perhaps be beneficial to the party.
Something else I thought about; what about Agnostics? Would they be denied?
This is a difficult topic since I myself am atheist, but in the end my reasoning is I think it will hurt the movement; it will drive back a lot of possible members.
Do you think this approach of permitting religious members can hurt the party, even though the strict rule of religion being a private affair and completely separate from the party and the state?
A part of me would like it a necessity for members to be atheist, but on the other hand I believe it may hurt the movement.
I recently discussed religion and Marxism with several comrades and the overall agreement is we should permit religious members into Socialist parties as long as they have the same revolutionary interests. Once they become members, we should educate them on the history and any injustices of their specific religion, but at the same time not force them to give up their beliefs.
Personally, I suppose a member can be a true Marxist and still believe in god. The reason is because I have met a few people who truly believe in science and contain a very rational approach on life in general, but they aren’t truly religious; they don’t go to church or follow a specific religion or read the bible, etc. These types of people may be repelled by any firm policy of Atheism, when in actuality they may perhaps be beneficial to the party.
Something else I thought about; what about Agnostics? Would they be denied?
This is a difficult topic since I myself am atheist, but in the end my reasoning is I think it will hurt the movement; it will drive back a lot of possible members.
Do you think this approach of permitting religious members can hurt the party, even though the strict rule of religion being a private affair and completely separate from the party and the state?
I'm not saying that it's a necessity for members to be atheist, but i do find it a necessity for the party to distinguish itself as an Atheist organization.
But that doesn't mean you have to be pushy and combative about it. There is a difference between being an Atheist and an asshole.
The example Lenin gives about this in "The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion" is a good one:
"Let us take an example. The proletariat in a particular region and in a particular industry is divided, let us assume, into an advanced section of fairly class-conscious Social-Democrats, who are of course atheists, and rather backward workers who are still connected with the countryside and with the peasantry, and who believe in God, go to church, or are even under the direct influence of the local priest—who, let us suppose, is organising a Christian labour union. Let us assume furthermore that the economic struggle in this locality has resulted in a strike. It is the duty of a Marxist to place the success of the strike movement above everything else, vigorously to counteract the division of the workers in this struggle into atheists and Christians, vigorously to oppose any such division. Atheist propaganda in such circumstances may be both unnecessary and harmful—not from the philistine fear of scaring away the backward sections, of losing a seat in the elections, and so on, but out of consideration for the real progress of the class struggle, which in the conditions of modern capitalist society will convert Christian workers to Social-Democracy and to atheism a hundred times better than bald atheist propaganda. To preach atheism at such a moment and in such circumstances would only be playing into the hands of the priest and the priests, who desire nothing better than that the division of the workers according to their participation in the strike movement should be replaced by their division according to their belief in God. An anarchist who preached war against God at all costs would in effect be helping the priests and the bourgeoisie (as the anarchists always do help the bourgeoisie in practice). A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could. "
Atheism should still be part of the party program and atheist propaganda should still be used, but it's all about how you use it.
People that believe in god can join up with the party because they see all the good the party stands for out weighs the atheism of the party. Just as the party will work with people who have common political work and conscientiously perform Party duties, without opposing the program of the Party because that's more important than their belief in god.
But that doesn't mean you have to be pushy and combative about it. There is a difference between being an Atheist and an asshole.
The example Lenin gives about this in "The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion" is a good one:
"Let us take an example. The proletariat in a particular region and in a particular industry is divided, let us assume, into an advanced section of fairly class-conscious Social-Democrats, who are of course atheists, and rather backward workers who are still connected with the countryside and with the peasantry, and who believe in God, go to church, or are even under the direct influence of the local priest—who, let us suppose, is organising a Christian labour union. Let us assume furthermore that the economic struggle in this locality has resulted in a strike. It is the duty of a Marxist to place the success of the strike movement above everything else, vigorously to counteract the division of the workers in this struggle into atheists and Christians, vigorously to oppose any such division. Atheist propaganda in such circumstances may be both unnecessary and harmful—not from the philistine fear of scaring away the backward sections, of losing a seat in the elections, and so on, but out of consideration for the real progress of the class struggle, which in the conditions of modern capitalist society will convert Christian workers to Social-Democracy and to atheism a hundred times better than bald atheist propaganda. To preach atheism at such a moment and in such circumstances would only be playing into the hands of the priest and the priests, who desire nothing better than that the division of the workers according to their participation in the strike movement should be replaced by their division according to their belief in God. An anarchist who preached war against God at all costs would in effect be helping the priests and the bourgeoisie (as the anarchists always do help the bourgeoisie in practice). A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could. "
Atheism should still be part of the party program and atheist propaganda should still be used, but it's all about how you use it.
People that believe in god can join up with the party because they see all the good the party stands for out weighs the atheism of the party. Just as the party will work with people who have common political work and conscientiously perform Party duties, without opposing the program of the Party because that's more important than their belief in god.