Social Philosophy

[Stealth]

I noticed Hutch say we should start a philosophy thread, but I realized with a board like this, it might be easier to make a social philosophy thread (Along the lines of Plato's Republic, Hobbes' Leviathon, etc.) I did a lot of social philosophy at school, but those two books left the biggest lasting impression on me (even though I dont much agree with them). But considering most of you never read any of it, I'll highlight a few points -

In Plato's Republic he basically says that society will run most smoothly when everybody is doing a job that he or she is most qualified for. This means that at a certain point in life the government will decide what your job is - he had th job classes broken up into different parts, with the noble, most honest people working as law enforcement. He also made it so that parents did not raise their children, and instead children were raised by the members of society most fit to do so.

These are all good points with respect to cops being corrupt and parents having 20 kids and raising them like shit.

Hobbes' Leviathon basically states that men are born into a "state of nature" in which it is a very savage society. Every man is equal because every man is capable of killing any other man. As long as this is true, we are constantly on our guard, trying to protect ourselves in this "kill or be killed" society. The only way that we can be safe is if we engage in a social contract in which we give up certain rights in return for the understand that we will not kill or be killed by our neighbors. The only way to make sure that these social contracts are binding, however, is to have someone more powerful than ourselves (a Leviathon) that we can all equally fear and respect. The Leviathon is responsible for enforcing the social contract between the peoples.

There's a lot of other theories on social philosophy (I like Nietzche a lot) - but I just wanted to throw some of these theories out here to get your mind working philosophically so I could ask:

How would you create the perfect society - Laws, enforcement, jobs, food, economy, social issues, divisions of power, divisions of labor, rich and poor, etc.

And if you create a perfect society, you'll likely say things like "everyone would be equal". But its not that easy. How would you design your society to ensure that the basic structure guaranteed equality?

 

[[ n a v ]]

in my perfect society, teachers would get payed as much as doctors. kids would not be bombared with the need for toys and happy meals to train them for later in life. schools would teach about knowing thyself and meditation as much as they would about sex ed and PE. advertisers would not make men feel like they had to be rich, emotionless, violent, muscular, and void of intellect to be considered masculine, so girls would stop looking for that in them. woman would be respected because they would be taught from a young age how to first respect themselves. to love themselves, so they wouldnt have to destroy their essence in order to feel loved by friends and society. people would know the value of balance and moderation for all things in the world, and people would not feel that living in excess meant livin in success. practices like this would have prevented the destruction of our planet with things like destroying wildlife and creating global warming (or at least prolonged it a couple thousand years). religion would not be fabricated and butchered in order to keep society in order while simultaniously keeping them from realizing the essence of enlightenment is thru self discovery, not spending your life in "service" and in fear of some white skinned, long bearded man they give the image of God to. governments would be, well, not like they are now lol. i think that would be a start.?

 

[Stealth]

If religion was not fabricated and butchered to keep society in order, how would society be kept in order, if at all? A society without order (esentially anarchy) would destroy knowledge, education, technology, communication, travel, industry, etc. There must be SOME sort of order in society to ensure that we remain living the standard of life that we now know.

I guess my question is this: These are all things that you want to do, but HOW would you ensure that they get done?

 

[[ n a v ]]

but is society really in order right now?the standard of living we now know is still a living consumed by fears and insecurities and all that. i agree with you that those fabrications are necessary, because people need answers and when they run out at some point they need to be created to prevent anarchy. again that was a fantasy world. maybe a way it could work is if it was fabricated, but maybe in a better way, a way that would give people a little more sense of self and love instead of fear and so on. i mean more people have died in the name of God than any other reason. i would just rather people understand that God is within them and that they have the power to create and shape their reality, and take ownership over the state of the world. humans are flawed by design so i guess such a model is difficult. we've been given a lot and still fucked it up somehow. i dont know i mean what do you think? how would you handle your own society?

 

[Stealth]

I never said that society was in order right now. I said that society needs to be in order so that we can continue living the standard of living we are now. What I mean by standard of living isn't that some people can buy Lincoln Navigators.

What I mean by standard of living is that I can walk down my street right now without some stranger running me down and killing me. If you do away with organized religion and don't give people anything to either fear or believe in, then I think we'd go right back into the state of nature/anarchy/chaos etc.

Not that I believe controlling the masses by brainwashing is the appropriate answer, but if you are going to do away with organized religion, you should have an alternative plan to maintain a safe society.

It sounds to me like you don't want to do away with religion as much as you want to revamp how people look at religion. I dont want to put words in your mouth though.

How I would handle my society though is a completely different issue. The only true firm answer I can give you off the bat is that I start from scratch. But until I understand a few certain things about human nature, I wouldnt want to start a society. The things I want to know is: are human inherently evil? Are they inherently greedy? Do they crave power more than anything else?

By inherently I mean: from birth, without any influence from the outside world, do all humans have a tendency to achieve power, wealth, and status? If not, how is it taught through society?

If it is taught environmentall, I would look at all of the things that contribute to people becoming greedy - whether it be through power (monarchy) or money (capitalism) - and destroy them. The only way to destroy them is by incorporating certain VALUES. Do not kill, cheat, steal, murder.

The next thing I would teach is tolerance. To each his own. In the words of Devon "do what the fuck you want to do". I think if tolerance and a community structure were developed at the same time, the world would be at a good point.

The thing is that there is only so much control you can have over a society before it evolves.

On the other hand, if the answer to the question of "is man inherently evil/greedy/competitive" is yes, then I honestly dont believe a perfect society or utopia could be created.

But then again...I think I've just talked my way through my entire thought process without giving a full answer. I'd like to see what other people have to say before I go on a major rant.

 

[[ n a v ]]

It sounds to me like you don't want to do away with religion as much as you want to revamp how people look at religion. I dont want to put words in your mouth though.
How I would handle my society though is a completely different issue. The only true firm answer I can give you off the bat is that I start from scratch. But until I understand a few certain things about human nature, I wouldnt want to start a society. The things I want to know is: are human inherently evil? Are they inherently greedy? Do they crave power more than anything else?

On the other hand, if the answer to the question of "is man inherently evil/greedy/competitive" is yes, then I honestly dont believe a perfect society or utopia could be created.

i agree with you completely, and yes you're right about my views on religion.

i think to understand the nature of man's greed and evil, you would indeed HAVE to start from scratch. studies have shown that living in a certain environment, a inner-city hood where the mother constantly lives under fear, for example, can have a huge effect on the behavior and physical attributes the baby will develop even before the fetus starts devoloping. so what i'm saying is if man IS in fact inherintly evil or greedy, it could be simply an adaptation to the state of our CURRENT society.

good points homie

but ur right we should let other people get at the topic

 

[R]

In my opinion all humans want is a feeling that they are important and they achive this feeling of importance in different ways. Some do it by being successful in their career n becoming rich. Others do it by following their religion to the fullest. Some might do it by gaining power over others and making themselves feared. I think it's not power they crave more than anything else, it's a feeling of importance.

 

[I AM]

Those books sound a lot like Consenses and Conflict theories dealing with sociology.

Humans in this day and age NEED to feel like they are apart of something, most of the time apart of something more, or higher (better) than they believe themselves to be.

As far as I'm concerned....there can't be a perfect society, unless it's small. When there's a lot of people, they start fucking off shit because they get greedy. If you had a group of close friends, say 30 people, and started a community or something, it could probably last quite awhile....If people just had common courtesy and respect for one another and knew how to take responsibility for their actions, there wouldn't be any need for law enforcement or other social insitutions that limit the freedoms of the people.

Education is funny though, cause it almost doesn't matter what you teach someone, just how you teach them...I mean, we could have learned about crackers and jam instead of the Civil War (how they teach us is BS anyway) and probably get the same thing out of it as long as they related the material correctly.

People are too selfish to let others flourish because they get envious and greedy, instead of sharing that person's happiness, they want their happiness, they are jealous. Unless we have a system that can produce the perfect human being, there will almost always be a bunch of fucking retards...either that, or I need to buy an island and invite only the chillest people that aren't fucking morons and crooked ass bitches.

I'd say the media plays a HUGE role in the way our society behaves...cause people are too easily influenced, they want to be like everyone else but themself because they are told they aren't good enough, whether that's directly told to them, or indirectly doesn't make a difference, the message is still there.

And about religion.....FUCK IT. You do not need it, all you need is people that have a FUCKING BRAIN! Most people, not all, that affiliate with organized religion, do so because they need a connection because they are TOO WEAK to deal with the harsh realities of our world. They depend on their God to make them feel better about their existance and the existance of the universe. If they bucked up and just took responsibility for shit, it wouldn't matter. They dont' have to fear being in trouble, or going to hell or any of that shit. They should just be taught to be honest no matter what...

And Anarchy is not chaos. It's just a state of society without government and law. If the PEOPLE werent' so FUCKING DUMB and careless, and worthless sacks of SHIT, we wouldn't need this...The problem is, the strong and the weak have been surviving, not just the strong. Now we have all these worthless humans that depend on EVERYONE else to supply them with things they need to live for the rest of their lives....Our system is shit. I'd rather have no system, cause I'd just buy a strap and if someone has a problem they could take it up with the heater. But until our gov't fucks us and people realize shit is bad, that will NEVER happen...but it's always nice to talk about.

 

[Stealth]

Sixxness, as I was replying to Handsworth4Life, I was about to say if he thinks people must feel important, then the only way that would happen is if the community is very small - small enough that every member of society can play a role.

But you took the words right out of my mouth...bastard.

Also - I agree with what you say about anarchy and religion...but the question still remains is that without a government or organized religion, how are people going to remain in check? You say people with a brain who think for themselves wouldnt need religion or government, and I agree. But how do you develop people with a brain who think for themselves?

 

[I AM]

We educate them privately, outside of school. And I dont' mean private school. Put the kids in public school, and then teach them at home.

You and I seem to have brains here, as well as several others on this board. It's not like there aren't people with common sense and shit, they just don't have a place to unite anymore (except here, LOL).

The funny thing is, I keep myself in check. I'm more critical of myself than ANYONE, even people that HATE me. Why? Because I know that I can do better for myself and others, and I have potential to do a lot of good things, but that's just my opinion.

I don't know how to create a the person we're talking about, but you and I seem to be there already. So we just need to figure out how we got to be how we are, then make everyone else just like us...LOL...

Gov't is just an illusion for the most part anyway. They just want you to think you can't smoke weed. But we ALL know that's BUUUUULLLLSHIT...They say we can't speed....everyone speeds. Gov't is just there to intimidate people. Same with religion, only gov't is THIS life, and religion is the NEXT (if that's even possible--so you tell them it is, they believe you, and they are your servants FOREVER). Religion is a way to keep people in check while they are alive, they think God is watching them so they HAVE to be good or they will go to HELL. They are being good because of FEAR. They aren't being good because they genuinely want to help other people. I've been passed the fear stage for quite awhile, and I was in the "fuck this shit" stage for awhile as well. But what people fail to realize is that attitude holds you back from helping yourself and others.

I honestly do not know what it would take to do this. But I can say that it IS possible, if it wasn't, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation. There are people out there that could live in the society we are describing, that society just hasn't been formed yet. So how bout that island? Kinda like "The Beach" or whatever that movie was....

 

[[ n a v ]]

i think the problem is people's lack of will power. even people who are intelligent and can think on this level, when put in an environment with ignorant people, and are constantly forced to reduce their thinking and their vocabulary and what not to match that of those around them, for the simple goal of "fitting in" or belonging like u were talking about, are somewhat dumbed down or at least put their intellectual minds at rest. for them to go into a rant about the state of the country, the influence of the media, the power of love, or anything more than cars, clothes, hoes, and whos got 5 on a sack, would seem so foreign to some people, so bizarre and "out there" that u are risking your very image when trying to educate about what u think is simple common sense (which has become an oxy moron). we are in a land of puppets, and although some people can realize that they are puppets, why they are puppets, how it came to that point, and what they can do about it, they still really cant do anything about it. not while living here at least.

so wusup wit this island?

 

[HERESY]

Sixxness, while I do agree with several of the things you said; two are causing red flags.

The first:

They just want you to think you can't smoke weed. But we ALL know that's BUUUUULLLLSHIT...They say we can't speed....everyone speeds. Gov't is just there to intimidate people

As a student majoring in criminal justice I disagree with this 100% The reason you can't kill someone is because it is inherently wrong to do so. However, the reason you can't smoke weed is because society as a whole has said it is not legal to do so. Has the government influenced this? Yes, but ultimately in the case of weed smoking and speeding these are crimes/infractions that we ultimately decide on as a whole.

Here is the second thing I wanted to address:

Religion is a way to keep people in check while they are alive, they think God is watching them so they HAVE to be good or they will go to HELL. They are being good because of FEAR. They aren't being good because they genuinely want to help other people.

The first thing I want to say is MANY religions had NO rules and regulations that governed the people who followed them. Many forms of religion (such as ancestral worship) don't place emphasis on fear because it has no place in the religion. In addition, many forms of religion lack dieties, so "god" is not applicable in this case. Moreover, MANY religions have NO concept of "HELL", so instead of making generalizations, you should probably identify the specific religions you are talking about. However, if you were to apply the words in bold to real christianity or even to "FOLLOWERS OF THE WAY", you would see that is THE concept (doing good because you are good) that keeps the person in check and NOT a "god".

 

[HERESY]

i think the problem is people's lack of will power. even people who are intelligent and can think on this level, when put in an environment with ignorant people, and are constantly forced to reduce their thinking and their vocabulary and what not to match that of those around them, for the simple goal of "fitting in" or belonging like u were talking about, are somewhat dumbed down or at least put their intellectual minds at rest. for them to go into a rant about the state of the country, the influence of the media, the power of love, or anything more than cars, clothes, hoes, and whos got 5 on a sack, would seem so foreign to some people, so bizarre and "out there" that u are risking your very image when trying to educate about what u think is simple common sense (which has become an oxy moron). we are in a land of puppets, and although some people can realize that they are puppets, why they are puppets, how it came to that point, and what they can do about it, they still really cant do anything about it. not while living here at least.

so wusup wit this island?

I honestly believe this depends on the person and if they have a true conviction in regards to the things they profess to believe in. When my nephew Goldie Gold comes around with Doonie, or Undaflow or anyone else in the Fed crew do you think I start becoming hyphy? Do you think I start ghost riding whips and wearing stunna shades? No. Why? Because I believe these things are detrimental to my life, belief system and mentality. Do I dumb myself down? Well, I choose not to talk about deep issues, but for the most part when I DO talk about certain issues with them they LISTEN, and this not only happens with them, but it also happens with any person I end up recording or engineering for. The key to all of this is knowing WHEN to cut it ON and OFF. If you go blabbing your mouth and talking about vain philosophies all damn day of course you'll be considered a back-porch philosopher or nut. If you speak when spoken to and refrain from casting your pearls before swine you'll have the advantage; even a fool appears wise when he doesn't speak.

Also, when you start to focus on your image or what people percieve you as you're lost.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

However, the reason you can't smoke weed is because society as a whole has said it is not legal to do so. Has the government influenced this? Yes, but ultimately in the case of weed smoking and speeding these are crimes/infractions that we ultimately decide on as a whole.

Just wanted to point out that the majority of Americans do feel weed should be legalized, at least for medical purposes.

The reason it is illegal is because of the way our legal system is set up – it is a money making business and the government makes money off of illegal pot smokers and because of the privatization of the prison industry, which causes groups with direct financial interests in the prison system to lobby for harsher drug laws.

It is no coincidence that every single year, for the last forty or fifty years, the US busts a new record number of people for marijuana violations (44.2 percent of all drug arrests in the United States. The total number of marijuana arrests in the U.S. for 2004 far exceeded the total number of arrests in the U.S. for all violent crimes combined, including murder, manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault. source).

This has nothing to do with the majority of Amerikan society voicing their judgment against weed and everything to do with the oppressive nature of capitalism.

Carry on.

 

[Stealth]

As a student majoring in criminal justice I disagree with this 100% The reason you can't kill someone is because it is inherently wrong to do so. However, the reason you can't smoke weed is because society as a whole has said it is not legal to do so.

Mala prohibitum - Evil because the government says so (Weed)
Mala un se - Evil because it is inherently evil (Murder)

I think its good that you separated these two things. Prohibitive laws by the government, in my opinion, are exactly the types of things that affect otherwise law abiding citizens. If, for example, marijuana was not prohibited, I would be an otherwise completely law abiding citizen, but instead I am enemy of the state. And the reason is not because I am destroying my life with it, but because other people could potentially destroy their lives with it. And as supremacist as this may seem, I am not responsible for people more weak-minded than me, and should not give up my rights because of them. Prohibitive laws are not from the people, they are from the government. And as one who views the government as a type of evil, I cannot readily agree with them when they declare something is evil. I think the point raised is that some of things that the government say are evil are basically still infringing upon our rights, and IF we had a society full of level headed people, those regulations from the government would not be needed because we would be able to regulate ourselves. So in a way, I do feel that the government is just trying to intimidate me, because despite whether or not they had certain laws, I feel levelheaded enough that I can make these decisions myself.

Marijuana (and other prohibitive actions) is not something that WE as a whole decided to make illegal, it is something that the GOVERNMENT (Harry Anslinger and Congress) said was illegal, based mainly on misinformation.

In my utopian government, I dont think "self-regulation laws" would be necessary.

 

[Stealth]

^^ Didn't see there was already a reply when I posted that, but anywho..

Do I dumb myself down? Well, I choose not to talk about deep issues, but for the most part when I DO talk about certain issues with them they LISTEN, and this not only happens with them, but it also happens with any person I end up recording or engineering for. The key to all of this is knowing WHEN to cut it ON and OFF. If you go blabbing your mouth and talking about vain philosophies all damn day of course you'll be considered a back-porch philosopher or nut. If you speak when spoken to and refrain from casting your pearls before swine you'll have the advantage; even a fool appears wise when he doesn't speak.

One of the best things I've ever heard said on the Siccness.

 

[HERESY]

Brother 2-0-6, all of your criminal actions are divided amongst two groups. Mala In Se which is inherently wrong, and Mala Prohibita which is made illegal by criminal statue, but not necessarily "wrong" (like speeding.) Again, these are laws that for the most part society as a whole agrees on. Society as a whole agrees that speeding is wrong because of what may happen as a result from speeding (an old lady getting bapped for example.)

While most of our society DOES agree that weed should be legalized, you cannot ignore the fact that they agree it should be legalized for a specific purpose. Legalizing for medicinal purposes is entirely different than smoking for recreational use. For the most part our society does not agree with this, and based on the way sixxness stated his opinion, I assume he was referring to recreational use. Also, you have a battle between STATE and FEDERAL courts/laws/jurisdictions in regards to marijuana here in cali. The state = can use for medicinal purposes. The Federal Government = we dont give a damn what you want to use it for you can't do it.

Again, I have said that the government HAS influenced the current mentality, so I see no reason for you quoting me, underlining my words and citing references to the number of arrests. As I have said before, our society as a whole deems it wrong (but makes exceptions.)

EDIT: and as I have said in the past the motivation to keep it illegal IS driven by money. If the medical industry generates 8-15 billion per year, there is no way they are going to allow themselves to loose a major chunk of cash to hollistic or "natural" methods. So yes, I see what you're saying 100%, but what I am saying is society chooses to believe a certain way and that belief is due to government mindwarping.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

Just wanted to point out that the majority of Americans do feel weed should be legalized, at least for medical purposes.

The reason it is illegal is because of the way our legal system is set up – it is a money making business and the government makes money off of illegal pot smokers and because of the privatization of the prison industry, which causes groups with direct financial interests in the prison system to lobby for harsher drug laws.

It is no coincidence that every single year, for the last forty or fifty years, the US busts a new record number of people for marijuana violations (44.2 percent of all drug arrests in the United States. The total number of marijuana arrests in the U.S. for 2004 far exceeded the total number of arrests in the U.S. for all violent crimes combined, including murder, manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault. source).

This has nothing to do with the majority of Amerikan society voicing their judgment against weed and everything to do with the oppressive nature of capitalism.

Carry on.

What i dont get...is the amount of money the government makes off of alcohol and taxable tabacco....you would think they would scheme a way to do the same for marijuana....or you do you think they just make too much "free" money off of weed being illegal?I dont think anyone knows exact figures...but ive heard somewhere that the government makes anywhere from 500 billion to 1 trillion dollars a year via cocaine....thats more than the porn industry and the LEGAL drug industry combined....

 

[HERESY]

Stealth you said two things:

Prohibitive laws are not from the people, they are from the government.

This is incorrect. You have prohibitive laws that are created and voted upon on the municipal level. This is why you can have curfew for minors in one city and NO curfew law in a city 100 yards away.

Marijuana (and other prohibitive actions) is not something that WE as a whole decided to make illegal, it is something that the GOVERNMENT (Harry Anslinger and Congress) said was illegal, based mainly on misinformation.

I am not speaking about you specifically, but you decided to make it illegal by not speaking out. You decided to make it illegal by bashing so-called "hippies" and ostrascizing people who needed to smoke. You decided to make it illegal by eating all the propaganda that the government fed you. You also decided to make it illegal by not taking it to the courts or congress and demanding a change.

You sit back, they make the laws, you allowed it to happen.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

^^you might be able to say that the people allowed certain laws to be forced upon them, but they did not create the laws.