Should the United States Use Military Force in Darfur?
- Thread starter MaddDogg
- Start date
aranoid:
Who was so unhappy with the previous peace deal with the rebels in southern sudan that they fermented a second uprising and began covert funding/military supply in Darfur? I'll give you a hint. It's the same ones who disguise military shipments as humanitarian aid.
I believe in cleaning up the mess you've made. But more intervention, especially militarily, is just going to make the mess bigger. It will never result in cleaning things up.
Sudan is secret partner of U.S.
Khartoum supplies information to the CIA on insurgents in Iraq
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/na...jun11,0,7816375.story?coll=bal-home-headlines
By Greg Miller and Josh Meyer
Originally published June 11, 2007
Washington // Sudan has secretly worked with the CIA to spy on the insurgency in Iraq - an example of how the United States has continued to cooperate with the Sudanese regime even while condemning its role in the killing of tens of thousands of civilians in Darfur.
President Bush has condemned the killings in Darfur as genocide and has imposed sanctions on Sudan's government. But some critics say the administration has soft-pedaled the sanctions to preserve its extensive intelligence collaboration with Sudan.
The relationship underscores the complex realities of the post-Sept. 11 world, in which the United States has relied heavily on intelligence and military cooperation from countries, including Sudan and Uzbekistan, that are considered pariah states for their records on human rights.
"Intelligence cooperation takes place for a whole lot of reasons," said a U.S. intelligence official, who like others spoke on condition of anonymity when discussing intelligence assessments. "It's not always between people who love each other deeply."
Sudan has become increasingly valuable to the United States since the Sept. 11 attacks because the Sunni Arab nation is a crossroads for Islamic militants making their way to Iraq and Pakistan.
That steady flow of foreign fighters has provided cover for Sudan's Mukhabarat intelligence service to insert spies into Iraq, officials said.
"If you've got jihadists traveling via Sudan to get into Iraq, there's a pattern there in and of itself that would not raise suspicion," said a former high-ranking CIA official familiar with Sudan's cooperation with the agency. "It creates an opportunity to send Sudanese into that pipeline."
As a result, Sudan's spies have often been in better position than the CIA to gather information on al-Qaida's presence in Iraq, as well as on the activities of other insurgent groups.
Blue eyes no use
"There's not much that blond-haired, blue-eyed case officers from the United States can do in the entire Middle East, and there's nothing they can do in Iraq," said a second former CIA official familiar with Sudan's cooperation. "Sudanese can go places we don't go. They're Arabs. They can wander around."
The officials declined to say whether the Mukhabarat has sent its own intelligence officers into the country, citing concern over the protection of sources and methods. They said that Sudan has assembled a network of informants in Iraq providing intelligence on the insurgency. Some may have been recruited as they traveled through the Sudanese capital, Khartoum.
The U.S.-Sudan relationship goes beyond Iraq. Sudan has helped the United States track the turmoil in Somalia, working to cultivate contacts with militias and Islamic courts in an effort to locate al-Qaida suspects hiding there. Sudan also has provided extensive cooperation in counter-terrorism operations, acting on U.S. requests to detain suspects as they pass through Khartoum.
Sudan gets a number of benefits in return. Its relationship with the CIA has given it an important back channel for communications with the U.S. government. The U.S. has also used this channel to lean on Sudan over the crisis in Darfur and for other issues.
And at a time when Sudan is being condemned in the international community, its counterterrorism work has won precious praise. The U.S. State Department recently issued a report calling Sudan a "strong partner in the war on terror."
Some critics accuse the Bush administration of being soft on Sudan for fear of jeopardizing the cooperation on counterterrorism. John Prendergast, the former director of African affairs for the National Security Council in the Clinton administration, called the latest sanctions announced by Bush last month "window dressing," designed to appear tough while putting little real pressure on Sudan to halt government-linked Arab militias from killing members of African tribes in Darfur.
"One of the main glass ceilings on real significant action in response to the genocide in Darfur has been our growing relationship with authorities in Khartoum on counterterrorism," said Prendergast, now with the International Crisis Group. "It is the single biggest contributor to why the gap between rhetoric and action is so large."
Financial penalties
In an interview, Sudan's ambassador to the United States, John Ukec Lueth Ukec, suggested that the sanctions could affect the country's willingness to cooperate on intelligence matters. The steps announced by Bush include banning 31 businesses owned by the Sudanese government from access to the U.S. financial system.
The decision to impose financial penalties "was not a good idea," Ukec said. "It diminishes our cooperation. And it makes those who are on the extreme side, who do not want cooperation with the United States, stronger."
But White House and U.S. intelligence officials played down the prospect that the intelligence cooperation would suffer, saying that it is in both countries' interests.
"The No. 1 consideration in imposing stiffer sanctions is that the Sudanese government hasn't stopped the violence there and the people continue to suffer," said Gordon Johndroe, spokesman for the National Security Council. "We certainly expect the Sudanese to continue efforts against terrorism because it's in their own interests, not just ours."
Sudan has its own interests in following the insurgency because Sudanese extremists and foreign fighters who pass through the country are likely to return and become a potentially destabilizing presence.
Jihadi 'way station'
Sudan's lax controls on travel have made it what one official described as a "way station" for jihadists not only from North Africa, but also from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Gulf states.
Some former U.S. intelligence officials said that Sudan's help in Iraq has been of limited value, in part because the country accounts for a small fraction of the foreign fighters, mainly at lower levels of the insurgency.
"There's not going to be a Sudanese guy near the top of the al-Qaida in Iraq leadership," said a former CIA official who operated in Baghdad. "They might have some fighters there but that's just cannon fodder. They don't have the trust and the ability to work their way up. The guys leading al-Qaida in Iraq are Iraqis, Jordanians and Saudis."
But others said that Sudan's contributions have been significant because Sudanese frequently occupy support positions throughout Arab society - including in the insurgency - giving them access to movements and supply chains.
"Every group needs weapons. Every group needs a meeting place," said a another former high-ranking CIA official who oversaw intelligence collection in Iraq. "Sudanese could get involved in the support chain or smuggling channels from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait."
A State Department official said Sudan had "provided critical information that has helped our counterterrorism efforts around the globe" but noted that there is an inherent conflict in the relationship.
'Playing both ends'
"They have done things that have saved American lives," the official said. "But the bottom line is that they are bombing their people out the wazoo in Darfur. Dealing with Sudan, it seems like they are always playing both ends against the middle."
The CIA declined to discuss any cooperation with Sudan.
"The agency does not, as a rule, comment on relations with foreign intelligence organizations," said a CIA spokesman, Paul Gimigliano.
Ukec, the Sudanese ambassador, said "the details of what we do in counterterrorism are not available for discussions." But he noted that the U.S. State Department "has openly said we are involved in countering terrorism" and that the assistance that Sudan is providing "is not only in Sudan."
In the mid-1990s, the CIA's relationship with Sudan was severed. At the time, Sudan was providing safe harbor for Osama bin Laden and other leaders of al-Qaida. But the ties were re-established shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, when the CIA reopened its station in Khartoum.
Initially, the collaboration focused on information Sudan could provide about al-Qaida's activities before bin Laden left Sudan for Afghanistan in 1996, including al-Qaida's pursuit of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons and its many business fronts and associates there.
Since then, Sudan has moved beyond sharing historical information on al-Qaida into taking part in ongoing counterterrorism operations, focusing on areas where its assistance is likely to be most appreciated.
"Iraq," a U.S. intelligence official said, "is where the intelligence is going to have the most impact on Americans."
In 2005, the CIA sent an executive jet to Sudan to fly the country's intelligence chief, Maj. Gen. Salah Abdallah Gosh, to Washington for meetings with officials at agency headquarters.
Gosh has not returned to Washington since, but a former official said "there are liaison visits every day" between the CIA and Sudan's Mukhabarat.
Greg Miller and Josh Meyer write for the Los Angeles Times.
Khartoum supplies information to the CIA on insurgents in Iraq
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/na...jun11,0,7816375.story?coll=bal-home-headlines
By Greg Miller and Josh Meyer
Originally published June 11, 2007
Washington // Sudan has secretly worked with the CIA to spy on the insurgency in Iraq - an example of how the United States has continued to cooperate with the Sudanese regime even while condemning its role in the killing of tens of thousands of civilians in Darfur.
President Bush has condemned the killings in Darfur as genocide and has imposed sanctions on Sudan's government. But some critics say the administration has soft-pedaled the sanctions to preserve its extensive intelligence collaboration with Sudan.
The relationship underscores the complex realities of the post-Sept. 11 world, in which the United States has relied heavily on intelligence and military cooperation from countries, including Sudan and Uzbekistan, that are considered pariah states for their records on human rights.
"Intelligence cooperation takes place for a whole lot of reasons," said a U.S. intelligence official, who like others spoke on condition of anonymity when discussing intelligence assessments. "It's not always between people who love each other deeply."
Sudan has become increasingly valuable to the United States since the Sept. 11 attacks because the Sunni Arab nation is a crossroads for Islamic militants making their way to Iraq and Pakistan.
That steady flow of foreign fighters has provided cover for Sudan's Mukhabarat intelligence service to insert spies into Iraq, officials said.
"If you've got jihadists traveling via Sudan to get into Iraq, there's a pattern there in and of itself that would not raise suspicion," said a former high-ranking CIA official familiar with Sudan's cooperation with the agency. "It creates an opportunity to send Sudanese into that pipeline."
As a result, Sudan's spies have often been in better position than the CIA to gather information on al-Qaida's presence in Iraq, as well as on the activities of other insurgent groups.
Blue eyes no use
"There's not much that blond-haired, blue-eyed case officers from the United States can do in the entire Middle East, and there's nothing they can do in Iraq," said a second former CIA official familiar with Sudan's cooperation. "Sudanese can go places we don't go. They're Arabs. They can wander around."
The officials declined to say whether the Mukhabarat has sent its own intelligence officers into the country, citing concern over the protection of sources and methods. They said that Sudan has assembled a network of informants in Iraq providing intelligence on the insurgency. Some may have been recruited as they traveled through the Sudanese capital, Khartoum.
The U.S.-Sudan relationship goes beyond Iraq. Sudan has helped the United States track the turmoil in Somalia, working to cultivate contacts with militias and Islamic courts in an effort to locate al-Qaida suspects hiding there. Sudan also has provided extensive cooperation in counter-terrorism operations, acting on U.S. requests to detain suspects as they pass through Khartoum.
Sudan gets a number of benefits in return. Its relationship with the CIA has given it an important back channel for communications with the U.S. government. The U.S. has also used this channel to lean on Sudan over the crisis in Darfur and for other issues.
And at a time when Sudan is being condemned in the international community, its counterterrorism work has won precious praise. The U.S. State Department recently issued a report calling Sudan a "strong partner in the war on terror."
Some critics accuse the Bush administration of being soft on Sudan for fear of jeopardizing the cooperation on counterterrorism. John Prendergast, the former director of African affairs for the National Security Council in the Clinton administration, called the latest sanctions announced by Bush last month "window dressing," designed to appear tough while putting little real pressure on Sudan to halt government-linked Arab militias from killing members of African tribes in Darfur.
"One of the main glass ceilings on real significant action in response to the genocide in Darfur has been our growing relationship with authorities in Khartoum on counterterrorism," said Prendergast, now with the International Crisis Group. "It is the single biggest contributor to why the gap between rhetoric and action is so large."
Financial penalties
In an interview, Sudan's ambassador to the United States, John Ukec Lueth Ukec, suggested that the sanctions could affect the country's willingness to cooperate on intelligence matters. The steps announced by Bush include banning 31 businesses owned by the Sudanese government from access to the U.S. financial system.
The decision to impose financial penalties "was not a good idea," Ukec said. "It diminishes our cooperation. And it makes those who are on the extreme side, who do not want cooperation with the United States, stronger."
But White House and U.S. intelligence officials played down the prospect that the intelligence cooperation would suffer, saying that it is in both countries' interests.
"The No. 1 consideration in imposing stiffer sanctions is that the Sudanese government hasn't stopped the violence there and the people continue to suffer," said Gordon Johndroe, spokesman for the National Security Council. "We certainly expect the Sudanese to continue efforts against terrorism because it's in their own interests, not just ours."
Sudan has its own interests in following the insurgency because Sudanese extremists and foreign fighters who pass through the country are likely to return and become a potentially destabilizing presence.
Jihadi 'way station'
Sudan's lax controls on travel have made it what one official described as a "way station" for jihadists not only from North Africa, but also from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Gulf states.
Some former U.S. intelligence officials said that Sudan's help in Iraq has been of limited value, in part because the country accounts for a small fraction of the foreign fighters, mainly at lower levels of the insurgency.
"There's not going to be a Sudanese guy near the top of the al-Qaida in Iraq leadership," said a former CIA official who operated in Baghdad. "They might have some fighters there but that's just cannon fodder. They don't have the trust and the ability to work their way up. The guys leading al-Qaida in Iraq are Iraqis, Jordanians and Saudis."
But others said that Sudan's contributions have been significant because Sudanese frequently occupy support positions throughout Arab society - including in the insurgency - giving them access to movements and supply chains.
"Every group needs weapons. Every group needs a meeting place," said a another former high-ranking CIA official who oversaw intelligence collection in Iraq. "Sudanese could get involved in the support chain or smuggling channels from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait."
A State Department official said Sudan had "provided critical information that has helped our counterterrorism efforts around the globe" but noted that there is an inherent conflict in the relationship.
'Playing both ends'
"They have done things that have saved American lives," the official said. "But the bottom line is that they are bombing their people out the wazoo in Darfur. Dealing with Sudan, it seems like they are always playing both ends against the middle."
The CIA declined to discuss any cooperation with Sudan.
"The agency does not, as a rule, comment on relations with foreign intelligence organizations," said a CIA spokesman, Paul Gimigliano.
Ukec, the Sudanese ambassador, said "the details of what we do in counterterrorism are not available for discussions." But he noted that the U.S. State Department "has openly said we are involved in countering terrorism" and that the assistance that Sudan is providing "is not only in Sudan."
In the mid-1990s, the CIA's relationship with Sudan was severed. At the time, Sudan was providing safe harbor for Osama bin Laden and other leaders of al-Qaida. But the ties were re-established shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, when the CIA reopened its station in Khartoum.
Initially, the collaboration focused on information Sudan could provide about al-Qaida's activities before bin Laden left Sudan for Afghanistan in 1996, including al-Qaida's pursuit of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons and its many business fronts and associates there.
Since then, Sudan has moved beyond sharing historical information on al-Qaida into taking part in ongoing counterterrorism operations, focusing on areas where its assistance is likely to be most appreciated.
"Iraq," a U.S. intelligence official said, "is where the intelligence is going to have the most impact on Americans."
In 2005, the CIA sent an executive jet to Sudan to fly the country's intelligence chief, Maj. Gen. Salah Abdallah Gosh, to Washington for meetings with officials at agency headquarters.
Gosh has not returned to Washington since, but a former official said "there are liaison visits every day" between the CIA and Sudan's Mukhabarat.
Greg Miller and Josh Meyer write for the Los Angeles Times.
I feel that Africa in general has a shit load of problems that aren't necessarily the responsibility of the United states due to slavery/colonialism since Sudan has been under Egyptian control longer than it has British control. However, I don't appreciate the feigned interest in the well-being of the southern Sudan, aside from military occupation, there has been a lack of diplomatic negotiation. Nigeria has an armed presence there as we speak and they barely have the resources, if there were any interest in the well-being of south Sudan, then troops would of been there a year ago. As the article above alludes to, there is always an agenda. The best that we can do now is to keep rallying for the government to get involved in some forceful way or another, or rally harder behind and support foreign intervention there.. Letting the bodies drop until the smoke clears is definitely not the answer, those are people who didn't do shit to anybody and after seeing what happened in Rwanda, any such conclusion toward this issue is simply disgusting.
I like the story of Isis, Horus, and Osiris.
I think it shows how strong a wife is or can be.
Also reading up on the Basongye of the Congo.
Are you familiar with them Park Boyz?
they were in Zaire before it got changed to Democratic Republic of Congo.
The Zulu people believed ancestors were the source of power and are souls of people who sought to fulfill their moral obligations. Diviners who are mostly women, are assisted by ancestors, who communicate by dream or vision. Diviners diagnose what spiritual powers are at work in patients, so healers can do their work. A Herbalist is a man who prescribes medicine for healing.
intersting stuff i thought.
5000
I think it shows how strong a wife is or can be.
Also reading up on the Basongye of the Congo.
Are you familiar with them Park Boyz?
they were in Zaire before it got changed to Democratic Republic of Congo.
The Zulu people believed ancestors were the source of power and are souls of people who sought to fulfill their moral obligations. Diviners who are mostly women, are assisted by ancestors, who communicate by dream or vision. Diviners diagnose what spiritual powers are at work in patients, so healers can do their work. A Herbalist is a man who prescribes medicine for healing.
intersting stuff i thought.
5000
