Religious vs Spiritual - Perception of Reality

[iaoish]

Thought so..
But let's carry on...

Define 'imperfection' and how is this (in all forms) a human trait?

You said bassicaly:
'because we are human we perpetuate cycles of shame, guilt and hate'

Then I replied:
I don't think this is true. There are lots of people, tribes, civilizations who do not perpetuate these circles.
And these people are also human.
I think it is part of our current social structure, we mainly know here in the west or in 'developed countries'.

You still need examples or you know some by now?
Do you really think this and failure are a part of 'human nature'?

 

[Lordbyron]

Thought so..
But let's carry on...

Define 'imperfection' and how is this (in all forms) a human trait?

You said bassicaly:
'because we are human we perpetuate cycles of shame, guilt and hate'

Then I replied:
I don't think this is true. There are lots of people, tribes, civilizations who do not perpetuate these circles.
And these people are also human.
I think it is part of our current social structure, we mainly know here in the west or in 'developed countries'.

You still need examples or you know some by now?
Do you really think this and failure are a part of 'human nature'?

You thought so...? Ahahahahahaha... SHUT UP...!

Anyhow... How is imperfection a human trait...? Well, nobody's perfect... People make mistakes... Happens all the time, all day long... And yes, I still need some examples... But I'm not sure what your last question refers to...?

 

[iaoish]

You thought so...? Ahahahahahaha... SHUT UP...!

yes, I thought so because I did not ask that question. I wasnt coming at you sideways. We can keep this respectfull towards eachother. In my opinion.
(your first example, now I think of it).

Anyhow... How is imperfection a human trait...? Well, nobody's perfect... People make mistakes... Happens all the time, all day long... And yes, I still need some examples... But I'm not sure what your last question refers to...?

First of, the original question was:

why do humans perpetuate cycles of shame, guilt and hate?
the compelling nature of negativity is quite fascinating.

says nothing about 'imperfection'. But we were commenting cycles of shame, guilt and hate.
What, in my opinion, is something different.

I still say this is a trade of 'developed countries' but 2 examples we all know are
Ghandi and Mother therresa, or even everyday people in our sociaty who put others infront of themselves (there are not many, i know, but they are).

I take you have never really traveled outside the US? There are numerous tribes, people who do not perpetuate these circles.

 

[Lordbyron]

I've been outside the US... Even hit up yo part of the globe... Amsterdam STAND UP...! So, whatever with that... Europeans...!?!?!?!? Ya'll swear you're the only ones well travelled (did I spell that right?)...!!!!!!!!! Anyhow... I'm gonna flip it... I said humans perpetuate these cycles... 'Cause........ We're HUMAN...! I mean, are cats, & frogs perpetuating these things...????? Of course not...!!!!!!!!!!! And, let's be honest, Ghandi was tryin' to shame the Brits into treatin' Indians better...!

 

[swoop187]

amazing...

i dont know if my labeling of the divided groups would be religious vs spiritual but i personally try to continue evolve into a more "spiritual' living by paying close attention to reality and and spirituality to me is more of a social system as well. I believe Mature Man/Woman (maturity only takes realness) will, thanks to evolution, realize that all of earths "problems" can be solved on a much more simpler basis if the whole social system of the world was to mature alongside it.
concepts are nothing but your own interpretation so any concept such as "spirituality" , "god" , "government" etc is a self expression of your ego.

i need to continue watching project bluebeam but honestly from what i saw is the conspiracy theorists but completely conspiring against another conspiracy. To me the idea of a mature society and of its peoples happens to be the "open minded new agers" which of course have some learning to do themselves but unlike what ive seen so far on project bluebeam is i dont see how even a world collected by one goal while living a mature existance where social problems can be handled with HIGHER THOUGHT that we all know exists.



anyway i just hit the bowl before writin this, but i hope my thoughts reach somebody

Thats actually religion man, at least based on how you portray your dealing with what you believe spirituality to be.

The difference between religion and spirituality is rules.

I would call spirituality more personal ethics then anything else, the difference is the notion YOU make up your own rules, eithics, moral code etc rather then a book or gospel..

I mean you do what you think is reasonable rather then have someone tell you how you should approach and live your own beliefs. At least thats the way you see it.

Spirituality is more personal rather then "group think."

When you bring up society and "social" thats just a conflicting outside source and that aligns with "group think." Spirituality is not consensus nor should it be.

I guess my point is spirituality should be unique to the individual and secular from social norms or social trends. Those trends are only outside influences and they should have absolutely no barring on a persons spiritual being.

 

[SeriouslyThug]

Thats actually religion man, at least based on how you portray your dealing with what you believe spirituality to be.

The difference between religion and spirituality is rules.

I would call spirituality more personal ethics then anything else, the difference is the notion YOU make up your own rules, eithics, moral code etc rather then a book or gospel..

I mean you do what you think is reasonable rather then have someone tell you how you should approach and live your own beliefs. At least thats the way you see it.

Spirituality is more personal rather then "group think."

When you bring up society and "social" thats just a conflicting outside source and that aligns with "group think." Spirituality is not consensus nor should it be.

I guess my point is spirituality should be unique to the individual and secular from social norms or social trends. Those trends are only outside influences and they should have absolutely no barring on a persons spiritual being.

ok
for once i understand what you mean, and honestly i agree.
But, in the end, spirituality/religion etc are all nothin more than words that exist in a reality beyond worlds. that reality i call life.
that is what spirituality to me is, and my spirituality is approaching the point where "laws" dont apply.


im glad you understand that spirituality is a personal journey and not an external one as it might appear. But my claim of A society bound by spiritual ethiics, im actually speaking of an consciously evolved society where one is actually UNBOUND by laws and there for has nothin to do with making or breaking any.

I might appear to be a visionary, but i think if you tie this in with my belief of a True Anarchist "state" made of real(evolved) men, my anarchism would make more sense to the rest of you.


the current state of existence that the social world appears to be always transitioning through dualistic polarities, until either the experiencer learns that its a nondual world or the natural course of the dual nature of the world weeds and clean up whats failing according to its laws

 

[iaoish]

I've been outside the US... Even hit up yo part of the globe... Amsterdam STAND UP...! So, whatever with that... Europeans...!?!?!?!? Ya'll swear you're the only ones well travelled (did I spell that right?)...!!!!!!!!! Anyhow... I'm gonna flip it... I said humans perpetuate these cycles... 'Cause........ We're HUMAN...! I mean, are cats, & frogs perpetuating these things...????? Of course not...!!!!!!!!!!! And, let's be honest, Ghandi was tryin' to shame the Brits into treatin' Indians better...!

I never said that Europeans are the only ones 'well travelled' its just known fact that most Americans dont travel much.
And Europe is also western and 'developed'. I ment travelled' to 3th world countries.
And then not the resorts, but staying in 3 dollar a night cockroach hotels. Eat what the locals eat, etc.

So you think we perpetuate these circles, redgardless what social or economic structe we live in? ('because were human')
I still dont think this is true.
I believe people would not act this way if the given circumstamces of our social structure would be different.

-Take a look to communes (did i spell that right?) all over the world.
- Look at the Amish
- look at all the native/indigenous tribes of asia, south america, africa.
- The examples mentioned earlier

its easy to think we perpetuate this 'because were human'. But when you take a closer look, you'll see it mostley only around you. Because you live in a western 'developed' country.
But this is really not the case everywhere though. And thus we can conclude that the answer is not 'because were human' but, like I mentioned before. I believe the problem lays in our current social system.


Just my 2 cents..

 

[Lordbyron]

That's just naive (or maybe it's really elitist)... Why wouldn't the Amish, native tribes of Asia, Africa, or South America perpetuate cycles of shame & guilt...?????? Are you saying those groups don't have value systems/mores that, if broken don't 'cause feelings of guilt or shame...? Hindus won't feel guilty after eatin' hamburgers 'cause they're from India & and not some 'developed' (1st world) country...??????

And for the record... Yes, I've been to a few third world countries... Avoided the roaches though...! 'Cause you don't get extra points for 'sluming'...!

 

[SeriouslyThug]

That's just naive (or maybe it's really elitist)... Why wouldn't the Amish, native tribes of Asia, Africa, or South America perpetuate cycles of shame & guilt...?????? Are you saying those groups don't have value systems/mores that, if broken don't 'cause feelings of guilt or shame...? Hindus won't feel guilty after eatin' hamburgers 'cause there from India & and not some 'developed' (1st world) country...??????

And for the record... Yes, I've been to a few third world countries... Avoided the roaches though...! 'Cause you don't get extra points for 'sluming'...!

well at least you understand that ones ambitions/desires and their fears/attachment control their worldview.

now apply this to your own logic and you should , depending on how open minded you are, realize that neither of you can state any assumption as anything other than an assumption based on your own world-view.


to me the distinction is in how narrow or expansive you take yourself to be.
Are u human or a consciousness? are you consciousness or the soul?
are you an Earthling or is your true home the whole universe? all of your inner instant replies to those questions should be observed and inquired into and you shall see that no world-view stands on any grounds as long as the experience is subjective and always relative.

 

[Lordbyron]

well at least you understand that ones ambitions/desires and their fears/attachment control their worldview.

now apply this to your own logic and you should , depending on how open minded you are, realize that neither of you can state any assumption as anything other than an assumption based on your own world-view.


to me the distinction is in how narrow or expansive you take yourself to be.
Are u human or a consciousness? are you consciousness or the soul?
are you an Earthling or is your true home the whole universe? all of your inner instant replies to those questions should be observed and inquired into and you shall see that no world-view stands on any grounds as long as the experience is subjective and always relative.

Maaaaan, what does this have to do with what I'm talkin' about...?

 

[SeriouslyThug]

well at least you understand that ones ambitions/desires and their fears/attachment control their worldview.

now apply this to your own logic and you should , depending on how open minded you are, realize that neither of you can state any assumption as anything other than an assumption based on your own world-view.


to me the distinction is in how narrow or expansive you take yourself to be.
Are u human or a consciousness? are you consciousness or the soul?
are you an Earthling or is your true home the whole universe? all of your inner instant replies to those questions should be observed and inquired into and you shall see that no world-view stands on any grounds as long as the experience is subjective and always relative.

how about now?

 

[iaoish]

That's just naive (or maybe it's really elitist)... Why wouldn't the Amish, native tribes of Asia, Africa, or South America perpetuate cycles of shame & guilt...?????? Are you saying those groups don't have value systems/mores that, if broken don't 'cause feelings of guilt or shame...? Hindus won't feel guilty after eatin' hamburgers 'cause they're from India & and not some 'developed' (1st world) country...??????

And for the record... Yes, I've been to a few third world countries... Avoided the roaches though...! 'Cause you don't get extra points for 'sluming'...!

Well, from my perspective or worldview, trying to smaller the gap here with what SeriouslyThug is trying to explain. You are naive.

Saying that something is so 'because we are human' does not make it so. In 'your world view' maybe because you do not know any better. But not in mine and not in others.

You don't have any influence on where you where born. So all people, especially who don't travel much. That's why I brought it up. Make up their world (view) by what they learn in life, their upbringing, the people around them. They grow up with certain morals and values in life that comes forth out of the social structure they are raised in.
These are all factors on how you deal and react to certain situations.

A lot of people look at disgust at cannibalism, see it as immoral, wrong, sick or there must be something seriously wrong with you if you eat another man.

If you for example would have been born in to a tribe somewhere in Asia or Africa and this is a cannibalistic tribe.
You would think of eating another man as a normal part of your life. Because you are brought up in a different social structure. You look and deal very differently to certain situations.

So everyone deals and handles and can look at the same situations but handles them or label them differently.

So not every tribe, group of people does have to perpetuate these circles. It is something we, 'developed' western countries do. But you don't see this anywhere.

I hope this was a small steppingstone to what SeriouslyThug was saying.
And if not. it was my view on it, lol.

And oh, I don't think you will ever catch a Hindu in India eating cow meat anyway..

 

[Lordbyron]

Well, from my perspective or worldview, trying to smaller the gap here with what SeriouslyThug is trying to explain. You are naive.

Saying that something is so 'because we are human' does not make it so. In 'your world view' maybe because you do not know any better. But not in mine and not in others.

You don't have any influence on where you where born. So all people, especially who don't travel much. That's why I brought it up. Make up their world (view) by what they learn in life, their upbringing, the people around them. They grow up with certain morals and values in life that comes forth out of the social structure they are raised in.
These are all factors on how you deal and react to certain situations.

A lot of people look at disgust at cannibalism, see it as immoral, wrong, sick or there must be something seriously wrong with you if you eat another man.

If you for example would have been born in to a tribe somewhere in Asia or Africa and this is a cannibalistic tribe.
You would think of eating another man as a normal part of your life. Because you are brought up in a different social structure. You look and deal very differently to certain situations.

So everyone deals and handles and can look at the same situations but handles them or label them differently.

So not every tribe, group of people does have to perpetuate these circles. It is something we, 'developed' western countries do. But you don't see this anywhere.

I hope this was a small steppingstone to what SeriouslyThug was saying.
And if not. it was my view on it, lol.

And oh, I don't think you will ever catch a Hindu in India eating cow meat anyway..

Man, ya'll are SLOW... You & Thug number 2... And no slow poke... I'm no where close to naive... Nor is this an argument about perspective... You keep talkin' about 'developed' countries perpetuatin' certain cycles but have yet to provide ANY examples... You also mentioned the Amish, native tribes of Africa, Asia, & South America... But again, you have yet to provide a single EXAMPLE of how any of these groups are FREE from perpetuating cycles of SHAME or GUILT...

And one last time... I've travelled all over... Prolly been on more Amish farms than you...! Speakin' of the Amish... Are you aware that members can be shunned...? Yep, shunned... That's akin to being ex-communicated from the Catholic church... It's also.......... Wait for it............... Perpetuating cycles of SHAME & GUILT...!

 

[Lordbyron]

how about now?

You're tryin' too hard...