Religious Division

[n9newunsixx5150]

I am convinced of mine just as you are of yours. Faith is always involved. The Vedas state that this knowledge was first imparted by the Supreme Lord to Brahma. Then Brahma spoke it so another, and them to another, and in this way it has been passed down. There is no empirical way to prove this succession, but one is either convinced or they are not. I think part of it, for me, is that I've always looked for the basic philosophical points of the theist in general. I found that the Vedas applied these points further and more consistently than anything else I had come across. That is just my experience. In any case, the goal is love for God. With that all else becomes meaningless (or, rather, is realized as being meaningless). I may believe one thing and you may believe another, but all we can really do is keep toward that goal.

 

[EDJ]

I BELIEVE YOU ARE RUNNIN' IN BLIND FATIH WITHOUT N-E REAL FOUNDATION. THE VEDAS STATE THIS, THE VEDAS STATE THAT, BUT WHERE'S THE SHIT THAT IT PROVES ITSELF(PROPHECY? KNOWLEDgE? ETC.....?)

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

The Vedas are packed with knowledge. The word "Veda" means knowledge. What kind of knowledge are you looking for?

Did you ever see my thread about Isha-Masiha in the Bhavishya Purana? http://www.siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=144574. I bet you can guess who some people think this is. Isha/Issa, Masiha/Messiah?

Lets see, there is also the Kalki incarnation who will appear at the end of this Kali Yuga. It is said that He will ride on a white horse and lead His divine army to destroy all the inimical rulers of the world. Then He will reestablish the earth into a new Satya Yuga. Both the purpose for coming and the white horse are described in Revelations, as you may already know.

What else are you looking for?

 

[EDJ]

^YOU STRESSED, "The Vedas are packed with knowledge. The word "Veda" means knowledge. What kind of knowledge are you looking for?"

I'M LOOKIN' FOR KNOWLEDgE THAT IS FRUITFUL, REFRESHIN', gIVES HOPE, PROVES ITSELF, AND DOESN'T DAP INTO MYSTICISM AND gRAVEN IMAgES. I DON'T WANT NO HOOPLA THAT JUST BABBLES ON AND JUST LEAVES YOU WITH THE CHOICE OF TRYIN' TO FALL FOR IT WITHOUT PROVIN' IT'S AUTHENTICITY OF COMIN' FROM A HIgHER SOURCE. AND IF THE VEDAS WERE BEFORE THE HOLY SCRIPTURES(TORAH, HEBREW OLD TESTAMENT, gREEK NEW TESTAMENT) THEN WHY THE COPY-CAT STORIES?

 

[HERESY]

The Vedas are packed with knowledge. The word "Veda" means knowledge. What kind of knowledge are you looking for?

Did you ever see my thread about Isha-Masiha in the Bhavishya Purana? http://www.siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=144574. I bet you can guess who some people think this is. Isha/Issa, Masiha/Messiah?

Lets see, there is also the Kalki incarnation who will appear at the end of this Kali Yuga. It is said that He will ride on a white horse and lead His divine army to destroy all the inimical rulers of the world. Then He will reestablish the earth into a new Satya Yuga. Both the purpose for coming and the white horse are described in Revelations, as you may already know.

What else are you looking for?

I know this wasn't directed at me but I did read the thread. I have a question for you. It's often said that krsna IS christ/jesus. Other times its stated that jesus is a manifestation of krsna and a sort of demigod. In your opinion which is it?

 

[HERESY]

I have one more thing to add. In the recent discussion you and I had 916 we talked about desire/lust and how it keeps one bind to the material world. We discussed karma and we discussed salvation to a small extent. We talked about escaping the cycle of reincarnation but I have a question for you. Do you believe krsna takes on a persons sins and atones for the bad karma?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

^YOU STRESSED, "The Vedas are packed with knowledge. The word "Veda" means knowledge. What kind of knowledge are you looking for?"

I'M LOOKIN' FOR KNOWLEDgE THAT IS FRUITFUL, REFRESHIN', gIVES HOPE, PROVES ITSELF, AND DOESN'T DAP INTO MYSTICISM AND gRAVEN IMAgES. I DON'T WANT NO HOOPLA THAT JUST BABBLES ON AND JUST LEAVES YOU WITH THE CHOICE OF TRYIN' TO FALL FOR IT WITHOUT PROVIN' IT'S AUTHENTICITY OF COMIN' FROM A HIgHER SOURCE. AND IF THE VEDAS WERE BEFORE THE HOLY SCRIPTURES(TORAH, HEBREW OLD TESTAMENT, gREEK NEW TESTAMENT) THEN WHY THE COPY-CAT STORIES?

How do you prove something is from a higher source? Do you have proof that the Bible is from a higher source? If so, can you tell me how that same proof doesn't apply to the Vedas if, 1. the Vedas are older and, 2. they speak of some of the same historical accounts as well as prophecies.

Copy-cat stories? If these stories are true historical accounts then wouldn't it make sense that they are found in various world scriptures?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

I know this wasn't directed at me but I did read the thread. I have a question for you. It's often said that krsna IS christ/jesus. Other times its stated that jesus is a manifestation of krsna and a sort of demigod. In your opinion which is it?

Some people believe that no Jesus Christ ever existed and that the name 'Jesus' comes from Iesous, which refers to Vishnu, and 'Christ' comes from Krishna aka: Krista. P. N. Oak, the author of that article I posted a little while back, believes this. I believe that Yahushua was an empowered devotee of God. I keep my opinion aligned with the acharyas in my disciple line. There are a few conversations where Srila Prabhupada mentions Jesus as an empowered devotee.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

I have one more thing to add. In the recent discussion you and I had 916 we talked about desire/lust and how it keeps one bind to the material world. We discussed karma and we discussed salvation to a small extent. We talked about escaping the cycle of reincarnation but I have a question for you. Do you believe krsna takes on a persons sins and atones for the bad karma?

Desire for material ownership and enjoyment is lust and that perpetuates our material existence. It is not that desire itself is the problem. As I explained before, desire is actually spiritual and, in its constitution, is focused on God Himself. In other words, spiritual life means desiring God. That is freedom from the karma of this material world. That is salvation/liberation.

Yes, it is explained that Krsna takes His devotees sins upon Himself. He burns up sin. Only God and those empowered by God can do that.

 

[EDJ]

N9NEWUNSIXX5150,

YOU STRESSED, "How do you prove something is from a higher source? "


THE KNOWLEDgE AND COUNSEL AND HOW IT HAS OUTLASTED THE TEST OF TIME.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Do you have proof that the Bible is from a higher source?"

IT PROVES ITSELF WITH ACCURATE ACCOUNTS AND PROPHECIES THAT CAME TO BE.[/B]

THEN YOU STRESSED, "If so, can you tell me how that same proof doesn't apply to the Vedas if,
1. the Vedas are older

2. they speak of some of the same historical accounts as well as prophecies."

51ST OF ALL,
IF THE VEDAS WERE FIRST, IS HOLY AND IN HARMONY WITH THE BIBLE, THEN WHY DON'T THE BIBLE MENTION IT?
XCONDLY,
FOR ARgUMENTS SAKE LET'S SAY THE VEDAS ARE OLDER, HOW CAN IT HAVE THE SAME PROOF AS THE BIBLE? YOU CAN'T BE LEADER AND TRY TO PLAY FOLLOWER TO.

3RDLY,
HOW CAN THE VEDAS SPEAK THE SAME PROHPECIES AS THE SCRIPTURES? IF THE VEDAS CAME FIRST, WHY NEED THE BIBLE?


THEN YOU STRESSED, "Copy-cat stories?"

YUP

THEN YOU STRESSED, "If these stories are true historical accounts then wouldn't it make sense that they are found in various world scriptures?"

IF TECHNOLOgY WAS ADVANCED AS TODAY, MAYBE. BUT WHY WOULD (gOD) HAVE SOME OTHA SHIT IN ONLY ONE COUNTRY AS OPPOSED TO THE WORLD?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

THE KNOWLEDgE AND COUNSEL AND HOW IT HAS OUTLASTED THE TEST OF TIME.

I.e. the Vedas. Don't take my word for it, study for yourself.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "Do you have proof that the Bible is from a higher source?"

IT PROVES ITSELF WITH ACCURATE ACCOUNTS AND PROPHECIES THAT CAME TO BE.

I can say the same thing for the Vedas...

Look into the Bhavishya Purana. Therein you will find references to Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc. Also, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who was here 500 years ago, is prophesied in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana.

51ST OF ALL,
IF THE VEDAS WERE FIRST, IS HOLY AND IN HARMONY WITH THE BIBLE, THEN WHY DON'T THE BIBLE MENTION IT?

Security. The Bible dawned on man during an age of deception. It also was revealed to a specific group of people who were not ready to hear certain things. This fact is backed up by Yahushua himself (John 16:12). The Bible was simply accomodating people of a specific time and circumstance. If those people were ready to hear the Vedas then they would have.

XCONDLY,
FOR ARgUMENTS SAKE LET'S SAY THE VEDAS ARE OLDER, HOW CAN IT HAVE THE SAME PROOF AS THE BIBLE? YOU CAN'T BE LEADER AND TRY TO PLAY FOLLOWER TO.

The Vedas have some things written about in the Bible and they have other things that are not in the Bible. Regardless, if the Vedas are older then how can you say they are playing follower?

3RDLY,
HOW CAN THE VEDAS SPEAK THE SAME PROHPECIES AS THE SCRIPTURES? IF THE VEDAS CAME FIRST, WHY NEED THE BIBLE?

Some dictionaries are abridged and some are unabridged. ideally we don't need separate scripture, but it came to be as a result of this age of quarrel and hypocrisy.

THEN YOU STRESSED, "If these stories are true historical accounts then wouldn't it make sense that they are found in various world scriptures?"

IF TECHNOLOgY WAS ADVANCED AS TODAY, MAYBE. BUT WHY WOULD (gOD) HAVE SOME OTHA SHIT IN ONLY ONE COUNTRY AS OPPOSED TO THE WORLD?

What does technology have to do with it? Is it not possible that God gave this knowledge to people of various places in the world? Or it could be that there was one worldwide Religion many thousands of years ago and that all the sectarian religions today are broken off pieces of that one system.

 

[HERESY]

Security. The Bible dawned on man during an age of deception. It also was revealed to a specific group of people who were not ready to hear certain things. This fact is backed up by Yahushua himself (John 16:12). The Bible was simply accomodating people of a specific time and circumstance. If those people were ready to hear the Vedas then they would have.

Can you please explain this?

Some people believe that no Jesus Christ ever existed and that the name 'Jesus' comes from Iesous, which refers to Vishnu, and 'Christ' comes from Krishna aka: Krista. P. N. Oak, the author of that article I posted a little while back, believes this. I believe that Yahushua was an empowered devotee of God. I keep my opinion aligned with the acharyas in my disciple line. There are a few conversations where Srila Prabhupada mentions Jesus as an empowered devotee.

I've been reading about Srila Prabhupada and thats why I asked the question. Good lookin out.

Desire for material ownership and enjoyment is lust and that perpetuates our material existence. It is not that desire itself is the problem. As I explained before, desire is actually spiritual and, in its constitution, is focused on God Himself. In other words, spiritual life means desiring God. That is freedom from the karma of this material world. That is salvation/liberation.

So according to you one obtains freedom from the karma of this world by desiring God? Bhakti yoga, karma yoga and jnana yoga are all methods of obtaining this freedom correct? With that being said let me ask you a question. What seperates man from the divine. Sin or ignorance? These are two different concepts here.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Can you please explain this?

According to the Vedas there was a great war some five-thousand years ago. This was right at the end of the Dvapara Yuga. In the Dvapara Yuga and prior pretty much the whole world was under one rule and everyone practiced Vedic culture. Many, many people (literally billions) died in this war and it resulted in much of the world being disconnected from its capital, which put the world into a dark age. Religions like Christianity and Islam are said to be Kali Yuga religions. They arose as an emergency situation in this degraded age. I find it ironic how religions like these arose to accomodate people in this age of quarrel when they themselves have caused quarrel (amongst theists, might I add) due to their exclusivity. When a people misunderstand and abuse a religious system then it becomes necessary to reject that system for the sake of spiritual growth. For example, Islam and Christianity both condemn the worship of graven images. If people take deity worship and abuse it then it becomes necessary to reject altogether. From what I have read, in pre-Islamic times the Arabs were worshipping all kinds of idols, even plain slabs of rock. The situation was too degraded to rectify so it was necessary to reject the worship of any form. In desperate situations it seemed necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Another case with this is in Buddhism. At that time people were unnecessarily slaughtering and eating animals on the strength of Vedic sacrifice, more specifically, on the strength of serving God. So Siddhartha Gautama completely rejected the Vedas and promoted ahimsa (nonviolence). Although He rejected the Vedas, His philosophy is Vedic. He just promoted an impersonalist version of Vedic philosophy in order to deliver the atheist class of men from their degraded habits and especially to save the poor animals. He also rejected the Varnashrama (aka: caste) system because it was also being abused (since it was the leading Brahmins who were authorizing animal slaughter).

I've been reading about Srila Prabhupada and thats why I asked the question. Good lookin out.

No problem. What have you been reading in particular, if I may ask?

So according to you one obtains freedom from the karma of this world by desiring God? Bhakti yoga, karma yoga and jnana yoga are all methods of obtaining this freedom correct? With that being said let me ask you a question. What seperates man from the divine. Sin or ignorance? These are two different concepts here.

As for the first question, yes, of course. We either desire God or we desire illusion. If we truly desire God then we will take up that path. I don't mean to say that people are to just desire Him but go about their sinful ways as if they are saved. That is rascal philosophy. We act so long as we exist, therefore purification in our eternal activity means being actively devoted to God. Bhakti Yoga is the perfection of karma and jnana. Jnana Yoga is the cultivation of knowledge, i.e. philosophical speculation about the absolute truth. This process leads one to an impersonal understanding of God. Karma Yoga is to offer the results of one's work to God rather than accepting those results oneself. Bhakti Yoga constitutes the confidential knowledge of God's Personality, which makes it the perfection/conclusion of the Jnani, and it is also the perfection of Karma Yoga by adding the eternally nectarean feelings of love for God. In conclusion, Bhakti is the only system of yoga that introduces love for God, which is the summum bonum of life. It is beyond any mechanical yoga process.

I don't know if I understand the difference between sin and ignorance. I would say that sin is a result of ignorance. Even when one is doing something sinful and knows that it is sinful they are still acting in ignorance of their constitutional position as spirit-souls eternally related to God. If they knew the demeaning nature (demeaning to themselves as well) of their action then they would not be doing it. Either way, God never sins nor becomes ignorant so both of these things would be something that separates us from God, would they not? Srila Prabhupada explains that we are qualitatively the same as God, but quantitatively, God is Supreme and we are subordinate. He is infinite and we are infinitesimal. Due to our being very small we are prone to fall down whereas God is Achyuta (infallible). Our being the same in quality with God means that we are both spiritual beings. We are actually God's part and parcel living entities and so our constitutional position involves engaging in devotional service to Him.

 

[EDJ]

N9NEWUNSIXX5150,

AH MAN, I DON'T HAVE TIME TO gO BAK AND FORTH. CAUSE YOU HAVE MADE UP STORIES THAT ARE BASED ON YOU BELIEVIN' THEM. FIRST TIME I HEAR OF SUCH.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

I haven't made up anything. I'm just repeating what's in these ancient texts. Although we haven't proven that this war happened five-thousand years ago, we do have evidence of various other things mentioned in the Shastra. For example, just recently, due to the tsunami, relics were uncovered off the coast of Mahabalipuram. These relics were from the ancient city, Dvaraka, which was described in the Mahabharata as being swallowed by the sea. Also, according to the Mahabharata, there were weapons in ancient times that caused people to get sick, and nails and hair to fall out. Interestingly enough, they have discovered this fused green glass dating back thousands of years in Pakistan, which supposedly is the same phenomenon resulting from our Nevada desert atomic weapons testing. Maybe I'll post an article on that...