*OT* KC Sports Arena debate

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May 2, 2002
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#1
I don't see what the big deal about this thing is. Why even consider building a new arena if we don't have a sprots team to occupy it?

KC Chiefs-- Arrowhead
KC Wizards-- Arrowhead
KC Royals-- Kaufman Stadium
KC T-Bones-- Community America Ballpark
KC Blades-- Kemper Arena
KC Knights-- Kemper Arena
(new franchise)-- (new arena)

Am I missing somethin' here? Why even draw up plans to construct a new arena for a team that is nonexistent? I would think there'd have to be a franchise even before an arena was constructed to house them. I don't know how good the attendance is on the last three, but the others have great attendance, I would imagine.
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#2
Dude... the IHL folded awhile back. There are no Blades.

Quite simply, you WON'T get an NBA or NHL team in Kemper. Not to mention KC is missing out on things like college BB tourneys. Once upon a time the Big 8/12 tournament was in KC every year. This is no longer the case because Kemper is simply a substandard venue.

Whether an NHL or NBA team ever comes to KC or not, a new arena opens the possibility for more sports tournaments, conventions, concerts and other events that would presently turn their nose up at Kemper. Additionally, the new arena is intended to be a big part of a downtown revitalization project.
 
Aug 8, 2002
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#5
I wanted to un-delete this thread because I feel very strongly about this proposal. This arena project is being funded mainly by a tax paid by people visiting KC. Rental car companies, hotels, etc. You won't see any big effect on your wallet for this thing to happen.

What will we use the arena for? Endelt said it....Dallas stole the big 12 tournament from us because the got a new arena down there. Building a new arena here will help bring the tourny back up here every few years. Plus NCAA Regional games and wait........MAYBE A FINAL FOUR.

But college basketball is just a small but attractive use for a new arena. Last 2 or 3 years the NHL has come into Kemper and sold out an exhibition game. There seems to be a large amount of closet hockey fans here in KC. With the ever changing geography of the NHL I wouldn't be surprised if we could sway a team to move here.

NBA is probablly last on the list as far as potential fans in KC, but I'm sure with a new stadium we could draw some exhibition games here and if we're able to draw interest from some NBA owners we might just fill the arena with a team.

There are so many possibilities for this arena project. We haven't even gone into concerts and other indoor events. Fact is, Kemper is out of date....it's falling apart. Why dump a couple of hundred million dollars into giving an OLD arena a face lift when you can put a NEW one in a prime downtown spot for just a few more dollars.

I hate coming through the downtown loop and seeing bullshit abandoned buildings flanking some of our beautiful skyline. A new entertainment district there would be great. Business in the river market and downtown would benefit without really taking anything away from any other attraction areas of the city.
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#6
techn9nehq said:
I wanted to un-delete this thread
Who deleted it? And why? If you care to share. Just curious.

NBA is probablly last on the list as far as potential fans in KC, but I'm sure with a new stadium we could draw some exhibition games here and if we're able to draw interest from some NBA owners we might just fill the arena with a team.
That's a pretty solid take. I question how successful the NBA would be in KC. KC's a college ball town.
 
Aug 26, 2002
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WWW.YABITCHDONEME.COM
#7
techn9nehq said:
I wanted to un-delete this thread because I feel very strongly about this proposal. This arena project is being funded mainly by a tax paid by people visiting KC. Rental car companies, hotels, etc. You won't see any big effect on your wallet for this thing to happen.

What will we use the arena for? Endelt said it....Dallas stole the big 12 tournament from us because the got a new arena down there. Building a new arena here will help bring the tourny back up here every few years. Plus NCAA Regional games and wait........MAYBE A FINAL FOUR.

But college basketball is just a small but attractive use for a new arena. Last 2 or 3 years the NHL has come into Kemper and sold out an exhibition game. There seems to be a large amount of closet hockey fans here in KC. With the ever changing geography of the NHL I wouldn't be surprised if we could sway a team to move here.

NBA is probablly last on the list as far as potential fans in KC, but I'm sure with a new stadium we could draw some exhibition games here and if we're able to draw interest from some NBA owners we might just fill the arena with a team.

There are so many possibilities for this arena project. We haven't even gone into concerts and other indoor events. Fact is, Kemper is out of date....it's falling apart. Why dump a couple of hundred million dollars into giving an OLD arena a face lift when you can put a NEW one in a prime downtown spot for just a few more dollars.

I hate coming through the downtown loop and seeing bullshit abandoned buildings flanking some of our beautiful skyline. A new entertainment district there would be great. Business in the river market and downtown would benefit without really taking anything away from any other attraction areas of the city.

i suggest...everyone...Read...Re-read...re-read again..what nick just said..

this is a huge thing for Kc..
i work for a Civil engineering Firm...and ...let me tell you..
there are huge plans for Kc...i MEAN HUGE...(dowtown)..

we could become the standard if this thing passes..

like lamar hunt said "If Kc didnt take the chance on the Truman sports complex 35yrs ago, where would be?"...

this is a no-second thought subject...i want to see...this thing happen..

on the same note...

EVERYONE GO OUT AND VOTE..

or dont tell me shit about bush..and this and that...if you aint voting..

5000
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#8
JLMACN said:
or dont tell me shit about bush..and this and that...if you aint voting..
Heh... earlier today I overheard a conversation that touched on that subject. "If you don't vote you can't bitch." One guy says, "Now, if you vote for Bush, and Kerry wins and fucks everything up, you can bitch." I was tempted to interject, "Hell, just vote Libertarian. Then you can always bitch."

On subject, tho... for those interested, more info on the downtown revitalization stuff can be found here:

http://www.kcskyscrapers.com/
 
Aug 8, 2002
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#9
JLMACN said:
EVERYONE GO OUT AND VOTE..

or dont tell me shit about bush..and this and that...if you aint voting..

5000

actually the vote for this is TUESDAY AUGUST 3rd......not the november elections. Bush aint on the bill. There is no reason not to go out and vote though.

Unfortunately I cannot vote, because I'm still registered as a Liberty, Clay County voter...not Kansas City, Clay County where I live now. #1 will only be on the Kansas City Ballots. But I sorely want this to pass. The only people who shouldn't want it to pass is the people from St Louis, and last I checked they can't vote on it either. Only we can!!! (we not so much me, but you get the idea)
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#11
techn9nehq said:
The only people who shouldn't want it to pass is the people from St Louis, and last I checked they can't vote on it either.
No, but they can dump half a mil into an organization purporting to be a group of Kansas Citians simply concerned for those poor local that'll have to pay $4/day to rent a car.
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#14
techn9nehq said:
Oh you must be talking about Enterprise Rent-A-Car.......BASED in St Louis.
Yeah. I like the idea I saw a guy post on another board...

ah... damn server's fucking up. Basically, the exact number was Enterprise is dumping in was posted. A guy did the math and said, "Y'know, if they're really concerned about the consumer they use that money to pay half of the new tax on XXX cars for local renters."
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#15
Here's an enterprising notion: let local people have their say

JOE POSNANSKI


Well, Enterprise Rent-A-Car's “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” flew in another expert to bash Kansas City on Tuesday. This particular expert, named Daniel Rascher, Ph.D., flew in all the way from San Francisco with a very special message: He wants everyone to know that “Kansas is not a viable market for an NBA or NHL team.”

Dan probably meant “Kansas City,” although it's possible that adding the word “City” would have cost Enterprise Rent-A-Car a few hundred extra dollars, and the Enterprise people decided, “Oh, what the heck, just leave it off. No one will know the difference.”

The thing is, if all Enterprise Rent-A-Car's “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” wanted was an expert to say that Kansas City is too small, too poor and too backward to support an NBA or NHL team, they did not have to go all the way to San Francisco to get some guy with a nice suit. I know dozens of people right here in town who feel that way. There is one guy who e-mails me every other day to say that Kansas City doesn't need the Royals or Chiefs either — let 'em all leave town.

It would have been cheaper for Enterprise to buy that guy a suit and then, as only they can do, “go pick him up.”

While Enterprise Rent-A-Car's “Coalition Against Arena Taxes,” continues to pay for any crank across America willing to rip Kansas City and all hopes of improving this city, more than 300 local people wrote concerning our question of whether or not Kansas City should try for an NBA or NHL team.

And while the results are hardly scientific, they are pretty interesting.

Before I get into that, though, let me say once more that I believe Kansas City needs a new arena no matter how you feel about the NBA or NHL. We need it to anchor dreams of a better downtown. We need it to bring back the Big 12 tournaments and the NCAA Tournament and great concerts and big conventions. We need it to house a College Basketball Hall of Fame. We need to look ahead. We all know the truth: Kemper Arena is already on life support. The patient can't be saved. Kansas City needs this.

Beyond that, getting back to the topic, this city with a new arena is very much a player for an NBA or NHL team. Dan Rascher, in the comprehensive study that he whipped up in five days, points out that Kansas City has not been a player. For instance, he points out that the last couple of NBA teams that moved did not consider Kansas City (or Kansas), and also this town was not even considered when the NHL expanded.

Of course, if Dan had spent more than 30 seconds in this town before his wrote his report, he might have known the reason for this is because KEMPER ARENA IS A DUMP AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Thanks for coming, Dan. Try the ribs.

OK, now for your thoughts. First of all, here are the results of your votes:

• NHL: 44.44%

• NBA: 33.33%

• Neither: 14.66%

• Arena Football: 3.56%

• No arena: 2.67%

• WNBA: 1.78%

• Both: 1.78%

• Minor-league hockey: .89%

• Various oddball suggestions: .61%

• Dodgeball: .28%.

• Ralph Nader: 0%.

I was a little bit surprised that hockey came out ahead. But it's clear that people who had been to a hockey game loved the experience and would love to have that in Kansas City. Here is some of what you had to say:

“Hockey is a game where players are still called ‘boys' and role models talk about their small towns, childhoods, parents, and communities.” — Phil Holderness.

“I vote NHL. The best ‘live' sporting event I've ever attended.” — Pat McLin.

“Go with proven results. Kansas City has a long history of hockey going back to the old Pla-Mor.” — Jack C. Bondon, Berbiglia Wine and Spirits.

See, he does know Jack. Of course, there's the argument that Kansas City already had an NHL team — the old Kansas City Scouts — and they failed miserably. But my friend and Kansas City native Tom Shatel, now writing fine columns in Omaha, has this to say:

“The Scouts failed in the '70s over lack of marketing. … The Scouts' problem was local. They had a bunch of great guys. But they didn't reach out. And Johnson County was waiting for them. I believe if the Scouts had marketed into an about-to-boom Overland Park, they would have made it.”

And this from Brian G. Fedotin: “I also think there are better rivalries for KC in the NHL: Blackhawks, Blues, Avs, etc. Of course all of these cities but St. Louis has an NBA team, but it would be great to be in a league where KC and St Louis could be in the same division or play regularly in the regular season.”

The NBA supporters point out that this is a basketball town and the NBA's star power would sell in Kansas City. They also point out that since St. Louis has the NHL (along with a feisty rental-car company) we should go the other way:

“I love hockey, but why don't we capitalize on the NBA void that exists in this state.” — Taylor Crouse.

“I think NBA gets the nod given the familiarity, and we have to hope that we get a team like Sac-town who loves their fans and plays hard for them.” — Matt Madden.

“Basketball verses hockey? I choose Show Time, Celtic Pride, Shaq Attack, and the thrill of watching ping-pong-ball-determining-drafts over glorified, Canadian/Russian figure skaters who run into each other, hit each other, and occasionally score. What is there to debate?” – S.S. McBride

Then, to deal with the argument that Kansas City had and lost the NBA Kings, here's Larry Knecht:

“We need to look at why the Kings didn't make it when they were here. First of all, the NBA did not have a salary cap at that time. When Otis Birdsong and Scott Wedman signed with the highest bidders after the 1980-81 season, the Kings' days in KC. were numbered. Secondly, the ownership group was extremely fragmented. With a good owner and the current NBA salary cap, I would hope that the NBA would have a better future in Kansas City the next time around. Bring back the NBA!”

Of course, there are also those who think this town's college basketball love would sink the NBA here.

“College basketball is a hotbed here and people appreciate the ability to play defense and do the basics more than the ability to dunk the ball and just outscore the opponent in the fourth quarter.” — Michael Fessenden.

“I vote for an NHL team because it would not compete with college basketball, which this town is nuts over. I just don't think we could support an NBA team financially when most of the population will be tied up focusing on the college level.” — Anne Waldron.

“This town is about Royals baseball, Kansas, Mizzou, K-State basketball. Give me college or give me death.” — Matt Cloud.

Plenty of people vote for neither NBA or NHL, of course, though it should be said that most of them still want a new arena to help draw the Big 12 tournament, NCAA Tournament and so on.

And then there are those who do not work for Enterprise and still do not want any kind of arena in Kansas City. Many of them make good points. One who writes in calls himself/herself “srch4nrpc” which I finally figured out must mean “Search for inner peace.” I have always been terrible about guessing what license plates mean.

“The days and nights are terrible for most citizens. Cracks in the sidewalks, pot holes in the streets, crumbling houses, hungry people, street lights out, garbage piling up, inadequate cooling and heating for poor people, killings galore of young and old on the streets, inadequate medical care, on and on. What we need is more concern for the wider picture … not a fantasy about how people will feel better about themselves by feeling more major league.”

I understand that point very well, but the truth is that these problems are not going to be solved by voting down an arena that helps Kansas City look to the future. Mayor Kay Barnes also checked in to say this: “We need the arena to be part of a larger economic package. It brings more money, more conventions, more conferences, athletic events, the list goes on. That's how we generate additional sales tax money. That's how we get the money to pay for street replacements, pot holes, and all those other services people talk about. Those things don't pay for themselves.

“There's only two ways to raise money for those things. One is to raise taxes to a level that is unacceptable for most people, and then nobody wants to live here. The other is to create economic development. That's what we're trying to do here.”

Meanwhile, you might ask: What is Enterprise Rent-A-Car's “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” trying to do?
 
Nov 14, 2003
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#16
i dont live in KC, but from what i saw when i was down there, not a lot of stuff happens downtown. shit, a arena downtown would be nice, maybe bring something there
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#17
Heh. Nevermind... he just went with the half a million estimate.

At 2.00 a pop, Enterprise could offer local residents a 50% reduced rate on the tax for 250,000 cars with the money they have allocated to this stoppage.

If they are so concerned about local Joe, perhaps that is how they should help?
 
Aug 19, 2002
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#18
Here's a great article.

He tried to be all cutesy with the footnote thing... so, it's kind of annoying to read. But, there's a lot of good information in here.

Rental-car company has bad case of footnote-in-mouth disease

JOE POSNANSKI

Enterprise Rent-A-Car's “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” likes footnotes.1 Last week, for instance, they sent out a press release that says half of the cars rented in America are rented by local customers.2 They then slapped a honking footnote on this statistic, which definitely makes it look more authentic and ominous.

The thing is, once you have a footnoted statistic, watch out, that's when you start to get cocky. You start taking leaps of faith. With that footnoted statistic in hand, the Coalition ran a commercial against the city's plan to build a new arena using hotel and rental-car fees. It included this dubious sentence: Half the new taxes will be paid by local people.3

Then they expressed outrage.4

Yep, armed with numbers, footnotes and outrage, the Enterprise Rent-A-Car “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” has gone on a mad attack in an effort to crush Kansas City's downtown arena. They paid for the services of noted stadium and arena skeptic Robert Baade,5 who reiterated the same claims he has made in pretty much every city where people have hired him to rip arena deals. They hired some Kansas City lawyers who — here's a shocker — wrote a report that says this is a bad deal for the city.6

Then, the Enterprise Rent-A-Car “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” must have run out of experts because they trotted out — get this — an Enterprise Rent-A-Car lawyer to say that the city was not dealing fairly with people. Isn't this like the time Bugs Bunny was the lawyer, the witness and also the judge in the same courtroom?7

I like footnotes, too.8 In fact, I'd like tell you a little story with footnotes.

A few days ago, I called to rent a car in Kansas City, because according to commercials this is what many Kansas City people do for fun. I was greeted by a very nice person.9 We had a pleasant conversation, and she quoted me a nice weekly rate of $140.95 — a touch more than $20 per day. A darned good deal, I thought.

“OK,” she said pleasantly, “your total will be $188.86.”

Now, I could be wrong here, but $188.86 seems a bit higher than $140.95.10 I said, “No, wait, I don't want insurance on the car.”

She explained there was no insurance included — actual insurance would have made the price quite a bit higher.11 So I said “What am I paying for?”

She said there was a 7.9% sales tax and a 9% airport access charge and something she called a “per-day surcharge of $3 per day.”

OK, the sales tax part I understood. The 9% airport access charge was more confusing, but it is true that the airport is not particularly accessible.

The $3 per-day charge had me completely baffled.

“What is that for?” I asked.

“It doesn't say,” she said. “It's a Kansas City thing.”12

Funny, I've lived in Kansas City for a while, and I don't know anything about it. So, I called Kansas City Mayor Kay Barnes, and she said her office wasn't involved. So I called Tom McKenna, director of marketing for the aviation department, and here's the deal.

Apparently, this surcharge was approved by the rental-car companies.

Of course, you say, that can't be right. We know that Enterprise Rent-A-Car13 and the many others14 in this broad-based coalition are determined to save Kansas City from car-rental surcharges and would not have allowed a $3 per-day tax to be placed on its customers.

And indeed, they would not.

It will soon be a five-dollar surcharge.

Oh yeah, that's right: Five dollars. That would be one more dollar than the proposed arena surcharge.15

OK, well you know one thing: With these good people behind it, you know this five-dollar surcharge must be for something crucial, something that will aid the poor, heal the sick, teach our children well, something that will create jobs, make our streets safer and fix the potholes in front of people's houses, something noble.

And it is indeed for something very noble, you know, as long as you consider a $60 million rental-car facility16 at the airport noble.

Repeat: Sixty million smackolas.17

The thing is, I don't mind the new facility. No, I'm not kidding.18 I'm sure the rental-car companies could use a new building. I'm sure this will make traveling into Kansas City easier. No, see, here's my problem: I've gone back through the files, and I cannot find evidence of a “Coalition Against Rental Surcharges”19 that fought the good fight for all Kansas Citians back when this was an issue.20

No, I could not find a single noted expert brought in to say that a new rental-car facility would not, in fact, bring money to Kansas City or create jobs. I did not see lawyers hired to find the flaws in a deal that gave rental-car companies a new building and gave Kansas Citians a, uh, new building where they can rent cars.

There is a good reason I did not notice any of these things.21

And this is my point: There are many people against the arena, and I have no qualms with them. Anytime you ask for this much money on anything, there will be strong arguments against it. Some think the government will mess this deal up. Some don't like any tax increases, even if they don't expect to pay them. Some are nervous. Some think Kemper Arena's good enough. Some feel a new arena is just not important enough or Kansas City is not big enough to fill it. I may disagree with all these points, but I certainly will listen. This should be a citywide discussion.

But I have a big problem with a big St. Louis company coming in here and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to stomp on a Kansas City dream.

So when you go to vote on Aug. 3, you might want to consider the Enterprise Rent-A-Car “Coalition Against Arena Taxes” stance on rental-car surcharges:

1. Daily surcharge for $60 million rental-car terminal: Good deal for Kansas City.

2. Daily surcharge for downtown arena that would make us competitive for big events, conventions, concerts, house a new college basketball Hall of Fame, create new jobs, spur the economy, potentially bring in a new winter sports team and encourage people to come downtown: Bad deal for Kansas City.

Remember: This is the broad-based coalition ready to pick you up.22

1 They put two of them in their very first press release.

2 Source: Abrams Travel Data Services.

3 They don't footnote this statistic, probably because it's ludicrous.

4 “This is outrageous,” Paul Danaher, former city councilman.

5 Noted for being a “noted stadium and arena expert.”

6 I keep hearing what an unbelievable deal this is for Phil Anschutz, who is putting up $50 million and covering all cost overruns for 35 years. And I wonder, if this is such an amazing business proposition, why didn't a single Kansas City person step up to do it?

7 I love that one, although the “Bully For Bugs” with Bugs as a bullfighter is the best.

8 They're so cute!

9 Christy.

10 Basic math learned from Miss Richmond in fifth grade.

11 $314.49.

12 She also asked, “Is the airport in Kansas or Missouri?”

13 Enterprise Rent-A-Car's contribution to the Coalition: $437,000.

14 “Others” financial contribution thus far: $600.

15 Five dollars minus four dollars equals one dollar.

16 According to McKenna, the current $3 surcharge pays for the $60 million facility. The soon to be added $2 surcharge will pay for buses to take people to and from the facility.

17 Almost enough to buy the New York Yankees infield for one year.

18 He's not kidding.

19 They could even have called themselves “CARS.”

20 The rental-car facility was part of a 2000 bond to improve KCI without opposition it passed easily, with 74 percent voting for it.

21 They never happened. There was no opposition.

22 Come by soon and see them break ground on their new $60 million facility!
 
Dec 29, 2002
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#19
the new arena will bring more shit here then a possible nba or nhl team also
they said it will bring the big 12 back the final four here
and more concert will come here instead of skipping over us
 
K

KEEP IT KEEBLER

Guest
#20
we don't have the blades anymore. are new hockey team is the kc outlaws. i think ithey should build this thing. the nba and nhl have said in the kc star that they have teams that will move here if we bulid. if we build it they will come. the college basketball hall of fame will be built in it as will. we would even have better concert. a lot of artist don't even come to kc anymore just cause we do not have a good indoor place to play. kemper needs to be burned to the ground. that's all!!!!!!!!!