My problem with Hinduism and why I think it is worse then Christianity.

[2-0-Sixx]

I will do my best to explain how Hinduism is directly linked the catastrophic human rights violations in India.

India is the major center of Hinduism of the world, there is no questioning that.

India has what is called the “caste system”, something that is deeply rooted in the Hindu religion. There are several castes, the lowest of them being the dalits or untouchables, who are treated like, well shit. The untouchablity feature in the caste system is one of the cruelest features of the caste system. It is one of the strongest racist phenomenon’s in the world.

In Hinduism there exists four castes arranged in a hierarchy. Anyone who does not belong to one of these castes is an outcast. The religious word for caste is 'Varna'. Each Varna has certain duties and rights. Each Varna members have to work in certain occupation which only that Varna members are allowed. Each Varna has certain type of diet. The highest Varna is of the Brahman. Members of this class are priests and the educated people of the society. The Varna after them in hierarchy is Kshatria. The members of this class are the rulers and aristocrats of the society. After them are the Vaisia. Members of this class are the landlords and businessmen of the society. After them in hierarchy are the Sudra. Members of this class are the peasants and working class of the society who work in non-polluting jobs. The caste hierarchy ends here. Below these castes are the outcasts who are untouchable to the four castes. These untouchables worked in degrading jobs like cleaning, sewage etc. link

MOST people are only allowed to marry into their own caste, and social interaction between the castes is strictly limited. In many cases, girls as young as 10 may be forced into marriage (typically to a MUCH older man).


The caste that you are born into depends on your karmic...situation. Meaning your position in life is not only fully earned from birth (and before) but also not to be questioned.

They hold the belief that one must not ask or expect better, but suffer quietly, and be rewarded in the next life and this is reinforced if not totally created by the their religion.

Most people live on in immense poverty, barely able to feed their families and unable to send their children to school or break away from cycles of debt bondage that are passed on from generation to generation. (Yes, that’s right- they are born into debt- whatever their relatives owed when they died, you owe). Bonded labor also exists due to this caste system, which by the way is a form of slavery according to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

Research carried out in March 2000 by the Indian NGO Mine Labour Protection Campaign (MLPC) documented a high incidence of bonded labour amongst the three million mineworkers in Rajasthan and estimated that 95 per cent of them were dalits (untouchables) or indigenous people. This pattern is repeated in many different industries throughout India.
source

As long as Hinduism exists in India, they will never fully progress. They may become a super power for production, but the people will never be free.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

"He who created the god was a fool; he who spreads his name is a scoundrel and he who worships him is a barbarian." - Periyar


"No country or people who are slaves to dogma and dogmatic mentality can progress." - Jawaharlal Nehru, speaking about India

 

[miggidy]

I know very little about Hinduism.
But I do know a lil about the Indian people from personal experience.

They do not come off as oppressed, racist, or assholes.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

No, I haven't met too many asshole hindus, but I have seen plenty of racist hindus.

Plus I think there is a difference between Hindus in the U.S (a very tiny minority) compared to Hinduism in India.

P.S
I've never had a Hindu knock on my door trying to convert me, so It's a tough call.

 

[miggidy]

lol

I thought about that, most Hindus out here are the wealthy type, which moved to this side of the world.

But I've been to Southeast Asia. There's many in Malaysia, and believe it or not. They're even more outgoing then the Indian cats here.
Most of the Indians I see here are the religious type.
Not many non-Hindus here.
But most of the ones living in Malaysia are not religious.
It's a trip seein them that way.
The criminal type, hip hop type, etc.... It's definately a trip.

But you make a good point, I wonder how they are over in India.
I guess we should let an Indian cat who knows better, respond to this....

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Most Hindus I’ve met here are wealthy too. In Seattle, there is actually a fairly large group of “hip-Hoppin-Hindus.” I don’t think they are too religious and most of them (that I met) are cool people.

But yes, perhaps we should let an actual Indian or Hindu reply. I’m sure that Vishnu cat will respond telling us how great Hinduism is and how it’s so beautiful and my Atheism is evil, blah blah blah.

But, I’ve spoken to a number of people who traveled to India, including my father and my old bosses who went there many times, and it’s always the same story –immense poverty, savagery etc. There is no denying this. The question then is how and why. As I illustrated above, I think it’s clearly rooted to Hinduism itself. This caste system and this wacky belief system of belonging to different classes are absurd and a tragedy to the people.

 

[BaSICCally]

I was reading in the paper, because of the Tsunami, those of the lowest caste,"the untouchables", are being denied food and water. Just because of their caste.

pretty fucked up.

 

[krishna]

OK I'll reply since some of you are surely expecting me to: (am I "that Vishnu cat?" lol. If so maybe you should know that I'm an atheist as well, and I dont recall me and you ever discussing our religious beliefs -or lack of it, as the case may be- with each other before)

I'm not a religious man, but I was raised in a Hindu family before I moved to the US and I've read tons of Hindu literature along with the Bible and Q'uran and lots of other texts and true Hindus, from my experience, do not advocate that kind of intolerance. So I don't fully agree with your point of view.

The caste system that has garnered so much attention began thousands of years ago when the Aryans invaded India from the North and subjugated the people from the southern part of the subcontinent, who were distinguishably darker-skinned. since that event, it's undergone some changes to include a complicated strata of castes and subcastes. I would consider the people who follow these caste rules strictly to be fanatics, just as I would consider an islamist terrorist to be a fanatic or extremist. They focus on a relatively obscure part of the religion and make it the foundation of their beliefs.

I've never been to India, but from what I hear there is immense poverty and that it is somewhat related to the caste system, but that is not the fault of Hinduism, its the fault of individuals who choose to perpetuate oppression in order to maintain their own power. Ever since India was colonized by the British it's been unstable, so I think politics has more to do with India's misfortunes than religion does.

Where I was raised in the west indies, half the people were hindu and half were christian. there were some Muslims too. For the most part, they were segregated by their own accord. Neither group claimed superiority over the other, so I don't understand why you're trying to do that now.

As for the comment about them being rich, I dont see how that's true. Sure, there are rich Hindus just like their are rich people belonging to every religion. Where I grew up everyone was poor.
And about them being racist, sure I know some racist Hindus. Don't you know any racist Christians? It has nothing to do with religion.

One last thought - many Hindus are strong believers in Fate. Christianity talks about fate (or destiny) to some extent, but not as much as Hinduism does. A lot of people believe they were born on this earth to accomplish something, and once they've done that they can die happily. This can be either a good or bad thing. On one hand, it encourages people to be humble and stay away from thoughts of avarice as well as practice self-restraint (qualities that are rare in Americans as a whole); but on the other hand some people are led to believe that there's no room for improvement in their lives. Maybe this is one contribution to the endless poverty in India- an unwillingness to change.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

1). Just to be clear - I was NOT referring to you when I said “Vishnu.”

2). Thank you for your comments.

3). I stated that most of the Hindus I have met here in Seattle are from wealthy families, I never intended to imply that most Hindus in America are rich.

4). I stated that I have met plenty of racist Hindus because Miggidy said that they “do not come off as oppressed, racist, or assholes.” I am well aware that that all races/religions are equally as guilty of racism/prejudices.

5). I agree that politicians are largely responsible for implementing the caste system in India; however imo without this kind of basis already existing in their religious beliefs it would not be possible or nearly as simple to implement.

These people have an unwillingness to change and they accept being oppressed. How is this good for their society? It’s horrible for any man or woman to live in the appalling living standards they are accustomed to live in.

When people are born as let’s say an untouchable and live their whole lives with the mentality that that’s all they will ever be and that’s what they should be, the people can never progress.

6). Regardless if this caste system is isolated only to the “fanatics” (which I don’t believe to be true), it’s still a part of the belief system and causing serious problems. Just like the Christian fanatic who blows up an abortion clinic or the Muslim fanatic who blows up the towers, it’s still a part of their specific faith and these fanatics are direct consequences of the faith. IMO the world would be better off without any of these stinking religions.

 

[I. Cold]

can anyone hook me up with The Icecream Man of Dru Down's album featuring the Luniz?

It'd be greatly appreciated

 

[I. Cold]

shit, wrong thread

 

[krishna]

1. OK my bad I thought you were talkin about me

2. you're welcome

3. I see. The reason is probably because the wealthy Hindus are the only ones who can afford to move to the US. My family was lucky to be able to move here because my mom had relatives in Cali who could help our family get on our feet. Most people in our situation wouldnt be able to just pack up and move to another country, so yeah I can see why there might be a disproportionate amount of rich Hindus in Seattle

4. If you accept the fact that racism is just as prevalent in christianity as it is in hinduism, then how is one better than the other?
This reminds me of another fact- Christianity is a religion that depends on conversion for it to survive. Over the centuries, christians have enslaved killed and conquered people from all corners of the world, bent on the ridding the world of "heathens". This kind of behavior is not found in Hinduism. Although there has been a despicable war between Hindus and Muslims in Pakistan/India, Hindus have not lashed out at the rest of the world violently as Christians have. they dont have missionaries of crusaders.

5. I agree it's depressing to us. but you and I don't know what an "untouchable" thinks like, we will in fact never understand what their idea of happiness is. Who is to say that we need wealth to be happy, and who is to say that we should depend on politicians to make us happy? In Hinduism there is the concept of "sanyasin" which is the renunciation of worldly things. It means you dont care for material things, wealth or fame. they believe in an inner self that doesnt depend on these things to gratify it.
I'm curious about what your idea of "progression" is. I assume you mean less poverty? Which is fine, I would also like to see less poverty in this world. But be careful not to equate progress with globalization/westernization, which has political connotations reminiscent of George W. Bush. The progress of India as a nation (economically) and the progress of an individual (spiritually) are, in my opinion, mutually exclusive. If a person is a true follower of Hinduism and all that it teaches, then little else should matter but their personal spiritual progress. It's a hard concept for me to understand as well, but to a Hindu I'm sure it doesnt seem unusual at all.

6. Why don't you believe it to be true? Do the Hindus you know in Seattle follow the caste system? If you asked one, would he be able to answer, 'oh yeah, I'm a kshatriya.'? In the town I grew up in, nobody believed in the caste system, it was viewed as archaic and obsolete.

And I agree, the world would be a lot better off with no religions.
but it sure does make shit interesting..

 

[2-0-Sixx]

3. I agree.

4. You raised a good point. If we compare the destruction Christianity has caused historically to the destruction caused by Hinduism, there is no question that Christianity has caused more damage, but on the other hand India now has over 1 billion people living in its country, many of which are poor & suffering and if the numbers continue to rise, it could be possible that one day they will be on a similar level.

Maybe it’s not fair for me to say one is worse than the other. Perhaps I am simply venting about Hinduism today & tomorrow I will think Muslims are worse.

5. I think it’s naive to say "untouchables" may live in happiness. I refuse to believe that millions of people living in the worst possible conditions, starving, suffering and dieing from disease & hunger are truly happy. They, like many Christians, might have a false sense of hope or “denial” that helps them cope with lifes hardships, but it’s definitely not happiness.

In Hinduism there is the concept of "sanyasin" which is the renunciation of worldly things. It means you dont care for material things, wealth or fame. they believe in an inner self that doesnt depend on these things to gratify it.

That’s actually a real good thing. (but then again Christians are supposed to have a similar mentality).

I'm curious about what your idea of "progression" is. I assume you mean less poverty? Which is fine, I would also like to see less poverty in this world.

A higher or acceptable standard of living. Poverty as you know is extreme there.

But be careful not to equate progress with globalization/westernization, which has political connotations reminiscent of George W. Bush.

I never would liken the two. India is and has been for some time victims of Imperialism/Globalization/Westernization(Bollywood). Sadly, its only going to get worse.

[I'm off work now, I'll finish later. ]

 

[The Duke of Earl]

what about tension between hindus and muslims in india ?

 

[krishna]

good discussion 206

about the idea of happiness, maybe you're right that it's not happiness that they experience but rather a "false sense of hope". But if, in the end, it does help them "cope with lifes hardships" then isnt that worth something?
Like I said, I'm not a religious person, but to me it seems that anything that can help people cope with their hardships must be beneficial in some sense. It may seem false to us, since we arent "pious" people, but to them it must be very real. And isnt that one of the main functions of faith and religion - to provide hope and comfort when needed?

As any person living in the ghetto knows, life is full of hardships and there often seems like there is no room for improvement. Ghettos in India I would imagine are much more impoverished than anything in the US, and an "acceptable standard of living" (by American standards) is a downright impossibilty, at least in their lifetime. So to a lot of these people, religion is the only "hope" they have.




Wino - Regarding the conflict between Hindus and Muslims in India, I think I acknowledged that previously.
But yes, they have been battling since the 1940s over territorial issues that arose after the British Empire split the former colony of India into two sovereign nations (India and Pakistan, India for the Hindus and Pakistan for the Muslims) Of course, there were some Hindus living in Muslim territory and vice versa, the result being a gruesome ethnic war.
I just read a short story about the situation called "The Skeleton" by Amrita Pritam, read it if you can find it.

 

[miggidy]

This reminds me of another fact- Christianity is a religion that depends on conversion for it to survive. Over the centuries, christians have enslaved killed and conquered people from all corners of the world, bent on the ridding the world of "heathens". This kind of behavior is not found in Hinduism. Although there has been a despicable war between Hindus and Muslims in Pakistan/India, Hindus have not lashed out at the rest of the world violently as Christians have. they dont have missionaries of crusaders

Hey now, lets not do the "bag them altogether" shit.
You're speaking on the early Catholic church there.
One who acted against the teachings of Christ Himself....

Anyways, isn't the conflict between India and Pakistan over land?

As for India's problems, isn't it just like China?
One of their major contributing factors in poverty is over population.
This may be the biggest problem in India.
I know that India will soon surpass China as the most populated country in the world....

 

[2-0-Sixx]

good discussion 206

Yes sir, it seems rare these days on this board.

about the idea of happiness, maybe you're right that it's not happiness that they experience but rather a "false sense of hope". But if, in the end, it does help them "cope with lifes hardships" then isnt that worth something?

Hope is worth something indeed but hope is not a solution to the problems. In fact, containing a false sense of hope I believe is very dangerous. Being contempt with poverty, slavery, disease etc. and looking forward to a better after life will get society no where. They need to make change now in real life.

On a smaller scale, religion can be very good, especially for some one “down on his luck” or a drug addict etc. But on the larger scale, i.e. entire communities/countries, they need to look for real solutions and religion has never and will never provide them with that.

6. Why don't you believe it to be true? Do the Hindus you know in Seattle follow the caste system? If you asked one, would he be able to answer, 'oh yeah, I'm a kshatriya.'? In the town I grew up in, nobody believed in the caste system, it was viewed as archaic and obsolete.

I was refering to the caste system in India. I think hindus living in America have been forced to adapt to the American way to life and it would be very difficult to maintain this caste system in a country where 70% of the population is Christian, compared to a tiny percentage of Hindus.

 

[I AM]

I thought I heard something along the lines that they were trying to get rid of that in India, but I can't remember if I really read it cause it would have been a like 2-4 years ago....I wish I could remember where I read it.....If I can, I'll try to post it....

 

[krishna]

Hey now, lets not do the "bag them altogether" shit.
You're speaking on the early Catholic church there.
One who acted against the teachings of Christ Himself....

No, it wasnt just the Catholic church. The crusades of the 12th and 13th centuries werent started by the catholic church. And I totally agree that what they did went against the teaching of Christ. Christians from every branch of the faith are guilty of this.

Anyways, isn't the conflict between India and Pakistan over land?

Yes, I wrote about that in my third post in reply to Wino.

As for India's problems, isn't it just like China?
One of their major contributing factors in poverty is over population.
This may be the biggest problem in India.
I know that India will soon surpass China as the most populated country in the world....

Yea I think you're right. Especially since India does not have restrictions on the number of children you're allowed to have

 

[krishna]

206-
I think we both agree that religion causes more problems than it solves.
Based on my studies, I conclude that religion is intended more to deal with issues of personal salvation (matters of the soul) and not with the large scale societal problems that you're talking about.
Considering the skepticism that you and I have about the value of religion, it's easy for us to blame religion for the problems of society when in reality there are several factors (such as colonialism, overpopulation, global economics, political corruption) that weigh in very heavily on the situation.
And like I mentioned earlier, what may seem like false hope to us is probably very REAL to a pious Hindu.


Sixxness-
you probably did read something like that, because I know some Indian leaders like Indira Gandhi have openly denounced the caste system. Post an article if you find one, maybe I'll look for one too if I have time but I need to get ready for work right now.