Q&A: Whether friend or old foe, Barnett fights on
Barnett Q&A: Heavyweight fighter Josh Barnett is only 30 years old, but there isn't much that he hasn't accomplished in mixed martial arts.
Coming from a catch wrestling background, Barnett became the youngest heavyweight champion in UFC history by knocking out Randy Couture in March 2002, and soon after became the first major champ stripped of his title after testing positive for a banned substance. He went to Japan, where he became a pro wrestling star, won a King of Pancrase title and reached the finals of the Pride 2006 Open Weight Grand Prix.
His 21-5 record includes wins over two UFC Hall-of-Famers, Couture and Dan Severn; a pair of near-7-footers, Gan McGee and K-1 superstar Semmy Schilt; and UFC's current interim heavyweight champion, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, whose September 2006 bout with Barnett is one of the best fights I've ever seen.
Pride's demise left Barnett in MMA limbo last year, but after going 15 months without a fight, he hooked up with two fledgling groups, World Victory Road, in Japan, and Affliction, in the United States. Barring injuries or other delays, Barnett will have had three fights in four months by the end of July, including his March victory over Hidehiko Yoshida; a May 18 bout against friend and training partner Jeff Monson; and a July 19 rematch with Pedro Rizzo, the first man to defeat Barnett in a professional MMA match.
I talked to Barnett recently about his busy schedule and the MMA business, in general. Excerpts from the interview:
Q: Your fight against Jeff Monson will be the second in a row in which you're going against someone you've trained with a lot. Is that just something that just happened, or...?
It's just circumstance, really. The industry isn't so big that you're not going to come across this scenario at least once, if not more than once. It just so happens that I came up in this scenario.
Both of these times, I've come across people that are friends of mine, that I've trained extensively with. In the case of Jeff, I've even coached him and been in his corner for a lot of his fights.
It's unusual to have to go out there and fight your own friend, I suppose. But in this profession, you really are sort of on your own island.
What advantages and disadvantages come with fighting someone who has that level of familiarity?
He knows a lot of the things that I've been successful with in practice so, of course, he's going to be wary and train to try and defend against those things. Knowing what he does also helps me to prepare to defend some specific things that he does as well.
But I usually feel pretty confident when I go into a fight against any of my opponents. I'm pretty good at reading what they like to do and where their strengths are.
So how do you assess Monson as a fighter and an opponent?
He tends to be giving up reach, height and leverage, but he's very compact, he's strong. There's not going to be a whole of difference in weight, I would imagine.
He's got a lot of tensile strength, I would call it — he can hold and grip and keep a position very well. He is not a very explosive athlete, but he can be when he needs to, and he's known to throw some heavy punches when given the opportunity.
Not a big ground and pounder, but he posseses a modicum of skill all throughout the ground game. He really likes to attack for the chokes, though.
In the past you've liked to tout a rivalry between catch wrestling and jiu-jitsu. Are you going to look to sub him since he's a jiu-jitsu specialist?
I'm going to look to sub him just because I feel that's probably the best bet and what I'd like to do anyway. Not very many folks have ever submitted Jeff Monson in grappling, let alone a fight, if they have even ever submitted him in a fight.
But I don't really think of Jeff when I think of jiu-jitsu, because Jeff's original background was wrestling, fine, but he originally started training with us at AMC Pankration, in Kirkland, Wash., where I used to train with Matt Hume. So a huge array of his arsenal comes from the catch wrestling training that we used to do up there, and his own natural skill at amateur wrestling from college.
Even with all of his training with the jiu-jitsu guys, like (Ricardo) Liborio and others, they've really (only) refined his game.
He really sort of fits into the mold like a Liborio, I would say, who's beyond being just, say, a label of jiu-jitsu. They're just really well skilled, they have takedowns, they've got wrestling control. Their abilities are above stereotypes.
From the way you're talking, it sounds like you're willing to train with him again, after it's all said and done.
Oh, absolutely. Hopefully, I'll get him to come out and train with us here in California; I've offered it to him before. I'll still be in his corner for his fights.
I expect to win, and afterward I'll sit down with him and go, "Here's where you made your mistakes, here's what we need to improve on, to make sure you don't get caught with this same thing again."
Will you be looking to execute any suplexes this time?
Every time. That never changes.
In fact, sometimes, given the opportunity, I've asked for some of the big opponents in MMA — because in Japan, it's open weight — just some very large individuals. I said, "Look, man, you get me in the ring with all those guys, there's a pretty good chance that I can get the opportunity to get a hold of them, and when that happens, I can take a 300-, 350-, near 400-pound man and put him on his head, don't worry about it."
You have a big fight coming up in July with Pedro Rizzo. You recently said on HDNet that you want to knock him out, so are you going to stand with him like you did seven years ago, or will you change things up?
It's necessary to stand with everybody, if you ask me. It's long since past that you can be entirely a one-dimensional fighter and make things work. You have to be able to stand with anybody, even if you wanted to take them down, because if they have no respect for anything that you may do on the feet, then you're never going to be very successful with your takedowns and vice versa.
Whether it's on the ground or on the feet, I'm coming and I'm bringing it hard. I always aim for the knockout or the submission, but it certainly would be sweet to turn the tables around and leave him with his eyes rolled up in the back of his head.
When you look back at that fight with Rizzo in '01, what do you see that you did wrong?
You know, I didn't strategize; I didn't think as much as I should've. I started landing lots and lots of punches and I just kept going with it, and instead of thinking about setting things up, I just kept coming after him. He likes to run a lot in the ring; he got me to chase him, too.
Let's say — and I don't really like the idea of this tactic — but let's say toward the end of the second round, right before I got knocked out, I just started firing off the low kicks and front kicks, and just sort of dancing away for a minute. Maybe he engages me, maybe he doesn't, (but) I could have stalled out the entire end of that second round (and) I probably would have been up two rounds to zero. It's as simple as that.
I would never even have thought of that at the time, and honestly, I just should have taken advantage of certain things that he was doing. And sometimes, if he's not going to initiate, I should have used that opportunity to do something else.
I just wasn't smart in some of the things I did in that fight, and against a guy like Pedro Rizzo, who's that skilled, it cost me.
Seven years later, how have you changed as a fighter, and, as far as you can tell from watching him, how has Pedro Rizzo changed?
Pedro Rizzo has started to do more ground work in his fights, but he's been doing this long enough that he's always been able to grapple to a certain extent.
I think he's pretty much the same guy. I don't think much has changed for Pedro and he had quite a bit of success with it early on in his career, so I don't think there was any reason in his mind to change it, other than to just try and be better at what he already was.
For me, I'm still pretty much the same fighter in one aspect and that is, I always aim to be world class at every aspect.
A lot of people talk about being a well-rounded fighter and able to do X and Y, and they don't care — (they say) they'll fight on the feet, they'll fight anywhere. But it's very rare that you'll see a fighter get out there and start to try and execute and go ahead and fight within all levels. It'll become apparent very quickly where they have to be to win the fight, and what they have to do, otherwise they fall apart.
For me, it's not an issue. I truly can fight at any level and any area in the ring. I've just spent so many years working with great coaches like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume and Bill Robinson. My submission game, my top game, has improved. I'm stronger and bigger and faster than I used to be back then, and I've got more fights under my belt.
So if anything, I'm just me, but a hundred times better.
You've said that pro wrestling has improved your fighting. How so?
When you've got to get out there in front of 50,000 (pro wrestling) fans, and go out there and mix it up with somebody, and when you go on the road, and you've got to stay in shape, and you're wrestling match after match, night after night, everything you do is physical and athletic.
It also helps you to understand and to be comfortable out there in front of everybody, and become very intimate with your surroundings, and also be very mindful of what your opponents are doing as well.
Affliction Vice-President Tom Atencio has said the plan is to match the winner of your fight with Rizzo against the winner of Fedor-Sylvia. How do you see the Fedor-Sylvia fight going?
Let's see — a couple of jabs from Sylvia, (then) I think Fedor, at some point, will step in with some overhands and hooks, and paste him right in the face, and put him down and either finish him there, or put him on his back and submit him within two.
Affliction will be using a ring. I'm told that Tim Sylvia has said he's happy to fight in a ring. Would you rather see a ring or a cage?
Oh, I'd rather fight in a ring, personally. I think the ring is a superior surface for conducting matches — I think it keeps the fights a lot faster.
A guy like Sylvia, unfortunately, with the cage, he's able to grab and hook onto it, on the top of it, to reach out and grab the links. He has a great history of hooking and grabbing the cage, so I imagine he'll probably transition that to the ring as well. I expect him to hook the rope with his elbows, overhook them, grab them; as long as he's penalized for it, that should hopefully deter him, but it'll make it difficult for Fedor to take him down if he's constantly doing stuff like that.
What sort of approach would you take with Sylvia or Fedor?
With Sylvia, I would just train really hard and come in in really good shape and then just pick him apart until I put him on his back and then submit him.
Fedor — just try and impose my will.
Affliction is a new organization coming up, and World Victory Road is a relatively new organization. Should new organizations even think about competing with the UFC?
No, they shouldn't. They can't operate within a vacuum, because what every promotion does, even to a small extent, is going to affect them, but they can't worry about competing with UFC.
They have to try and make sure that:
a) They can put together a great product, in a fashion that is going to draw people to watch it and is available for people to watch it.
b) All their i's are dotted and all their t's are crossed, and everything is laid out and set up, so that someone like UFC couldn't come along and try and find some way to throw a wrench into it, hijack it, challenge it by running programming against it or just simply going behind the scenes to whoever and making a few handshakes, and (say), "Hey, make sure this thing doesn't go off."
You've worked with many promoters in your career. Why is it so hard for new organizations to get traction?
They don't secure the viewership first and basically they just spend way too much right off the bat.
Of course, you're going to lose money when you start, but some of these guys, I think they come in not with the understanding of how long it's going to take them to recoup that investment, and they don't have a nest egg that's large enough to hang in there, especially at the level they're trying to do it at.
You do a lot with women's MMA. How do you see that field progressing, especially in this country, over the next few years?
It's making strides. It's getting bigger and better, and I think the women, like Shayna (Baszler) and Gina (Carano), who are on Showtime right now are doing a great job of trying to increase more awareness. Other than being women, they're two entirely different types of athletes and individuals, so therefore you're not hitting the same market in the same way. And with that, it could make an open path for other women to come and perhaps get into that larger spotlight.
It's still got a ways to go. The fact of the matter is, you run an all-women show, it's going to be difficult to get past a certain point, when it comes to the size of the promotion, how much people are going to be able to spend on it, either in buying it, and merchandise. There's just a certain plateau right now for women's MMA.
But by having them integrated with EliteXC, which is a fairly large company, and having the ability to show a women's fight on something like CBS or Showtime, is big, and that's a big step in the right direction.
I thought Bodog had a really quality product, but they just had some really horrible people in their office, that I don't truly believe were there to make the product stick around, they were just there to collect a paycheck. It's unfortunate that a lot of the women who were involved in that are no longer around, but if you like to see great fights, the women rarely disappoint