Is Religion the Source of Morality?

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May 13, 2002
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#1
Is Religion the Source of Morality?
by Jerry Brown

Most religious people are sure it is, and many claim that without it we would all be savages. The evidence indicates otherwise.

Christians who make this claim evidently do not know much of the history of religion in general and of Christianity in particular. They are also not very familiar with the contents of their own Bible. Its cruel and vindictive God, forever "smiting" people, and condoning slavery, murder, genocide, and subjugation of women is an atrocious example of morality. We are lucky that most Christians do not live by the Bible, and we had better make sure that those who would rule by it do not ever get in positions where they can.

There is no credible evidence outside of the Bible (which proves itself to be unreliable) that its "savior" Jesus Christ ever lived, much less had the extraordinary powers attributed to him. So that means the whole Christian religion is based on a false premise, a lie, which we are admonished to accept, under penalty of eternal punishment, as fact. That comes pretty close to extortion, and is not a very good opening for something claiming to be the standard for morality.

A major tenet of the Christian religion--that because of a mythical event in the dim past we are all born in "sin," and that someone had to suffer a horrible death so that we can be "redeemed" by believing this BARBARIC, INHUMANE idea--is a moral outrage. Another one, that a person can spend a lifetime creating misery in this world, then "repent" and live happily forever in another one, while someone else whose life was devoted to bettering the human condition but who cannot believe illogical nonsense will be eternally tortured, is a travesty of any concept of justice.

The religious notion of reliance on an imaginary "outside power" is the root of all sorts of problems, some of them quite serious. Children have died because their parents, trusting in "god," withheld medical treatment that could have saved their lives. That's not only immoral that's CRIMINAL. Religion tells us we are inherently evil and helpless, which certainly doesn't do much to promote self-esteem. Religion fought the use of anesthetics on the ground that suffering is "god's will" and must therefore be endured; it has defended wars and unwanted births on the same grounds. Anyone claiming these to be moral concepts has to be kidding.

Historically, religion has opposed anything that conflicts with its fables, no matter how well-supported the evidence. The evolution/creation conflict, which should have been settled with the Scopes "monkey" trial, shows how many religionists today continue to think in the same myopic way. This is basically a put-down of the human mind, our most valuable asset and the one thing separating us from all other animals. It is an immoral, anti-human concept.

Christianity teaches that knowledge is to be avoided, that questioning is wrong, that doubting is sinful, and that the right thing to do is to believe without evidence, on "faith." This is another put-down of the intellect, a sure route to gullibility, and a perfect tool for tyrants.

The Christian doctrine that humans are a special divine creation put here to have dominion over everything has made us oblivious of the fact that we are but a rather insignificant part of life on this planet, all of which is inter-dependent. It has led us to be more conquerors than stewards, more plunderers than conservators. The "savior" myth has produced "Armageddon syndrome" which is threatening the entire species and possibly others as well. Far from being humble, these are arrogant, irresponsible, immoral beliefs.

To say religion is the source o f morals is to ignore the facts. The more highly-evolved mammals have all developed behavioral codes that enable them to live together in groups with relative harmony; the larger the group, the more strict are the rules (this is also true in human society). Lions hunt together in mutual respect, as do wolves, and they develop a hierarchy that helps them survive. Even ants have a certain amount of what we might call moral behavior. Morality is not exclusive with religion, and certainly not with Christianity. Moral precepts are far older and come from life in the real world; they have survival value. Social conscience exists for utilitarian reasons and is the result of thousands of years of experience--it's just plain "good business." Belief or non-belief in the God concept has nothing to do with it. People who credit their good behavior go God are short-changing themselves. They would be more honest, and give their self-esteem a boost, if they gave credit where it is due: to themselves.

What are called God's laws are in fact HUMAN laws. Some of them have practical value in the functioning of society (these long predate Christianity), some have at one time been useful but no longer are, others never did have practical value, and some are so cruel and abhorrent that it is decidedly unflattering to acknowledge their human origin.

As for the claim that our civil laws come from the Christian religion, Thomas Jefferson said that U.S. common law was derived from the Anglo-Saxons while they were still pagan "when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced." The U.S. Constitution was NOT founded by Christians. The founders were mostly Deists, many of whom took an extremely dim view of Christianity.

Religion in intellectually dishonest and immoral because it teaches as fact things for which it has no credible evidence, while at the same time attempting to hide the actual facts which provide the only realistic basis for dealing with our situation. It is basically an instrument of denial and deception, explaining nothing and solving no problems, and is for all practical purposes USELESS. If, as claimed, it is the basis for morality, then after several thousands of years of such widespread practice of it we should no longer need locks, police, or prisons. Instead, we always seem to need more of them. And the ratio of religious believers to atheists in prisons has been found to be considerably higher than in the general population.

In spit of all this, most of the religious people I've known have been reasonably decent folk. But so have the atheists. Where does THEIR morality come from? The same place that of good Christians comes from--their own conscience, their desire to just "get along." The difference is that the atheists can freely acknowledge this; they don't have to give credit to a god. They are simply facing reality. And that's moral A very IMMORAL thing is the captivity and degradation of the human mind, and that has been the specialty of religion since its inception.

It is possible to be quite moral without being religious. It is also possible, as history proves to be quite religious without being moral.
 
Dec 27, 2002
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#2
^^^ Do you actually believe that bullshit ass nonsense? That was one of the most elementary and unintelligent arguments for atheistic morality I have ever read.

It *is* possible to behave morally without having religion, but for an atheist to claim that there is an objective moral standard all humankind should abide by is completely illogical and contradictory. What argument can the atheist provide as to why I should not kill them? If there is no outside authority then what reason can they give me to not carry out any desire which I may have?

According to the atheist philosophy, if I kill a person I am unaccountable to anything other than the immediate retribution given to me by members of society. For them there is no such thing as sin, or karma, or sovereign authority. As such, the atheist argument for the evil of killing falls apart because without an objective absolute moral standard to refer to, the atheist has no platform on which to condemn my actions other than personal & subjective criteria, which is inadequate and selfishly derived.

How can the atheist reconcile the fact that they view things as "right" and "wrong", two polar opposites, while simultaneously claiming that there does not exist an Absolute transcendental standard? On one side is "wrong", on the other side is "right". So where is this line drawn? Do we each get to draw it for ourselves? If I decide it is "right" to kill babies, then how can the atheist say that I am "wrong", unless he accepts the existence of an objective standard to which the both of us can refer to?
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#3
LMAO!!!!

2 0 Sixx,

I dare you to go to this website.
And I dare you to read the information it has with no bias.
It will prove to you how wrong you are about Christianity.
I tell you the truth,
everyone who questions the bible and Christianity do it out of rebellion or ignorance.

Go here for straight facts:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/questions-for-skeptics.html

Peace,
Miggidy

Here is just a sample:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin?

>> Read about fulfilled biblical prophecies...

Explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion (Psalm 22) 1000 years previous to crucifixion being established as a form of capital punishment?

How could any mere human pinpoint the birth town of the Messiah seven full centuries before the fact, as did the prophet Micah?
>> Read the "God's Story" account of Micah describing the Messiah...

Account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in one person, i.e Jesus.
>> Prophecies

How was it possible for the Old Testament prophet Isaiah to have predicted the virgin birth of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14) 700 years before it occurred?
>> Read the "God's Story" account of the prophets describing the Savior / Is the virgin birth a myth?

 
Nov 17, 2002
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#6
@2-0-Sixx


I agree with some of the points made in your post. But, you have not tainted the bible's teachings. Only, you have shown how people can misuse its teachings. And you, (or whoever wrote the article), have obviously misperceived the bible. Your post is not regarding the bible. Its regarding a select people who, themselves, misinterpreted its teachings. Forget what you think you know or heard about the bible from other people. If you are, in fact, a seeker of truth and deeper meaning, study it for yourself. I, personally have much to study about it. But, I do not make foolish judgements based on what certain people have done in the past. That is illogical. It would be like if you noticed that all the serial killers ate sliced bread and then decided that eating sliced bread must make you a serial killer. Either study the bible or don't speak of it in a negative way. Don't let "atheism" close your mind......
 
May 13, 2002
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#8
STUPIDEST COMMENT OF THE YEAR! CONGRATULATIONS YOU WIN!
I say we got a winner! It was a close race, but in the end Miggidy came in first place with that comment. A close second place also goes to miggidy by saying budhism and hinduism is the same as Atheism.

I would just like to say Good job miggidy for bringing home two medals. I never would have thought it possible, but you proved me wrong!
 
Jul 24, 2002
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2-0-Sixx said:


LMAO!

You want me to go to a website called christianswers.net???

Ya right
Just what I expected, you are afraid to find the truth because it would crush your current beliefs.

Very similar to the situation my Atheist brother is in,
who saw what appeared to be a spirit.

He doesn't even want to look for the answer as to what he saw....
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#12
2-0-Sixx said:


I say we got a winner! It was a close race, but in the end Miggidy came in first place with that comment. A close second place also goes to miggidy by saying budhism and hinduism is the same as Atheism.

I would just like to say Good job miggidy for bringing home two medals. I never would have thought it possible, but you proved me wrong!
Now you are taking what I said out of context to help your cause.
Why?
Is it to make it appear that I'm bullshitting just to make yourself appear better?

You know exactly what I meant from that comment.
Hindus and Budhists are similar to Atheists,
and not another from of Atheism.
Hindus are similar because they simply made their philisophy up.
For what ever reason.....
Budhists are free to do what ever they want as long as it makes them happy not giving much shit about society, similar to Atheist philosophy.

Nothing wrong with living their life in what ever form they want.
It's just that they have a self centered philosophical point of view about the world, similar to Atheism....

Don't get mad at me, I ain't lying......
 
May 8, 2002
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#15
miggidy said:
Nice approach too, talking out of your ass with out nothing to say.
get used to it he usually talks alote of shit and is rude to you but then after a while and a few arguments are made he will settle down and show more respect and hold more intelligent conversations
 
Dec 27, 2002
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Hindus are similar because they simply made their philisophy up.
How do you know? I seriously doubt you know what their philosophy is, other than it is not the Bible. How do you know the Bible is not made up?

Exactly how do you determine what is "made up" and what is "real"? Remember, the Bible has talking snakes. Couldn't one argue that the Bible is also made up?

Just to be clear I am not Hindu nor Christian and I personally believe in the Bible and in the divinity of Jesus Christ. But that does not mean that every other philosophy is made up. Atheists can have closed minds but so can those who reject everything which is not the Bible. One book cannot contain God.
 
Nov 17, 2002
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#18
@Mcleanhatch


I believe Vyasadeva is trying to say he does not limit his beliefs to Christianity. I understand where he is coming from. We seem to be on the same page. Of course, if one believes in the divinity of Christ that makes them Christian. But, Vyasadeva and I differ in the way that we do not stop there. Rather, we find truth in many other teachings and philosophies...... I'll go ahead and let Vyasadeva speak for himself now......
 
May 8, 2002
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#19
n9newunsixx5150 said:
@Mcleanhatch

I believe Vyasadeva is trying to say he does not limit his beliefs to Christianity. I understand where he is coming from. We seem to be on the same page. Of course, if one believes in the divinity of Christ that makes them Christian

gotcha
 
Dec 27, 2002
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Fa sho, you got it right n9neWUN. I believe in Christ but I am not limited to "Christianity". Modern Christianity is very exclusionary, and in their eyes you are forced to ONLY worship Jesus. I have found that most "Christians" do not even fully understand who Christ actually was since they have no knowledge of the difference between spirit and matter. They think of Jesus as a sin merchant, and since Christ paid for their sins, it's all good as long as you believe in him. This is a very basic and philosophically unsatisfying theology.

Also, because I acknowledge the Gods described in the Vedas, "Christianity" mistakenly views that as idolatry and would never call me a "Christian".