is god really all powerful and knowing??

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 23, 2003

^^^^^^^^^^^
@2-0-Sixx

I already know where this is going...

"if God knows all then he can't be all powerful because if He knows that I am going to eat a burger from "in & out" next tuesday He can't change that fact and therefore must not have that power. And if He can change it then He must not be all knowing since what He knew was wrong."

^^^Is this something along the lines of what you are getting ready to say?

I'll say this...
God will know that you will eat a burger next tuesday but God does not make last minute changes. He does not make last minute changes because He does not dwell in a world of "minutes". God is above time and already has everything set in motion. Just because God does not "jump in" and change what you will eat to a sloppy-joe doesn't compromise His power. God does not need to flex His power constantly; He has nothing to prove to anyone. He answers to no one. As it is already done, you can speculate all you want on God having power to change things He already knows will happen, but...
GOD *KNOWS*, AND THE THINGS HE KNOWS DO NOT CHANGE, BUT THE THINGS *WE* KNOW ARE *CHANGING* JUST AS PHYSICAL EXISTENCE IS CHANGING ACCORDING TO UNIVERSAL LAW.
And God knows these changes already. And He knows all outcomes because He is above time. Once Again, just because God does not flex all His power constantly means absolutely nothing.

Vyasadeva · Feb 23, 2003

What you don't seem to grasp is that God DOES know what our choices will be yet we still are free to CHOOSE what to do.

It is not an "either/or" situation. God knows exactly what I will write right now before I even write it, AND I still am choosing which words to use and what to say.

Not only that, but God is the force which is carrying out all activity, therefore even though I am CHOOSING what to write, it is only due to the will of God that I write anything at all.

Hit The Blunt · Feb 24, 2003

"If we truly have a choice, then god CANNOT know the future"

I don't know why you are so set on this being an either/or matter. How does someone knowing you are going to tie your shoe in 5 minutes stop that from being your choice? Have you ever known somebody so well that you knew what they were going to say? think of it like that X100. Completely understanding a being which is all-knowing AND can transcend time is impossible. however, it is not impossible to understand that having foreknowledge of a decision does not prevent it from being a choice.

2-0-Sixx · Feb 24, 2003

Hit The Blunt said:

You think about 100X. If god KNOWS ALL, he knows the future. Which means, he knows what we will do b4 we do it. in other words, PREDESTINED. If god is the creator, then he already knows what he created. RAPISTS/MURDERERS/THIEVES, etc.

How many times do I have to say it. If we are PREDESTINED, which clearly we are according to you, then man does NOT have a choice...You may say or think we do, but how can we have a choice in ANYTHING if we are already PREDESTINED. Logically speaking, god CANNOT be ALL-Knowing and All-POWERFULL at the same time. If you wish to change the definitions, go ahead.

I'm not the fisrt one to speak on this. There are hundreds of books out there as well as thousands of debates that have occured ALL in favor of my defense. If you wish to be irrational in defending the all-powerfull/all-knowing god, then that is on you.

Vyasadeva · Feb 24, 2003

Your problem is humility. You are under the false impression that the Supreme Being, who creates an INFINITE number of universes and living entities, who has NO BEGINNING and NO ENDING, some how has to fit perfectly into that tiny teeny weeny itsy bitsy little puny brain inside your head.

Not only is your brain inconceivably SMALL and your experience considerably LIMITED, but your mind is IMPERFECT.

Why exactly do you expect that you would perfectly understand the perfect Lord when you are using an *imperfect* mind?

What is irrational is you thinking that God must make perfect sense to you. You are a grain of sand on an infinite beach, and you are trying to understand how far the beach stretches. It cannot be done, and since it cannot be done, you are falsely concluding that there is no beach.

2-0-Sixx · Feb 24, 2003

Wow, are dissing me now by saying my brain is small or are you saying that ALL of our brains are small, including yours?? I hope your not trying to diss me here...I never said anything about you. Please explain.

Fuck the bible, get on your knees and pray to my rifle. -Dead Prez

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 24, 2003

@2-0-Sixx

He never called you a name.

2-0-Sixx · Feb 24, 2003

I read it wrong the first time...I edited my original response.

Vyasadeva · Feb 24, 2003

Where did I dis you or call you any names?

I said the reason you do not understand God's omnipotence and omniscience is because you are not humble.

I pointed out that the brain you are using to try to understand the perfect Lord is very very very small and is imperfect.

Nowhere did I dis you or call you any names, and the fact of the matter is that MY brain is just as small and insignificant as yours, and I am just as imperfect as you are.

The difference between us is that I do not pretentiously argue that God must make 100% perfect sense to me. I realize that since He is the source of my mind and abilities, that my mind will never be able to wrap itself completely AROUND Him.

2-0-Sixx · Feb 24, 2003

I edited my original response, please refer back to it.

I'm not saying you have 100% knowledge of "him." What I would like to ask you is how can one have ANY knowledge of "him." You have numerously attached a definition to "him", like all-knowing and all-powerfull....How do you know this? Knowledge must come from somewhere, and it must be verified by some means, right? When you claim god is omniscient, you are excluding acquisition and verification.

2-0-Sixx · Feb 24, 2003

How can an event be "free" in the fisrt place, if god has infallible knowledge of it prior to its happening?

306 · Feb 24, 2003

Hit The Blunt · Feb 24, 2003

We will have to agree to disagree. I see no conflict between foreknowledge and choice. If someone knew I was going to jump off a bridge before I did. i still decided to jump of the bridge. While someone having that type of foreknowledge or knowing me that well would trip me out...it still doesn't deny that I did in fact decide to jump of that bridge.

I do not see your logic--As you do not see mine. therefore I agree to disagree End of my story.

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 24, 2003

@2-0-Sixx

God having "prior knowledge" to something does not fully encompass the truth because the term "prior" is still dealing with time. And God is above time. God knows all, eternally. Yes, in the eyes of God, there is predestination. But to say that God knows if you are going to be a "serial killer", "rapist", "priest" or whatever, is faulty. It is faulty because God does not create these labels, man does. God does not see a man murder and dub him a "murderer". People put that label on others. If a man murders one person in cold blood and never does it again their whole lives, the masses will still label him a "murderer"...

Vyasadeva · Feb 24, 2003

Through sincere endeavor. Atheists do not make a sincere attempt to know Him, instead they engage their thinking in trying futilely to DISPROVE that which they believe does not exist!

All knowledge comes from God, and since God is a person He has spoken it in many different languages. I refer to the Vedas, others the Koran, others the Bible, etc. God's knowledge is verified by us by our experience and deliberation.

Excluding it how? There is no way for me verify His omniscience, but that is one of His qualities nonetheless. Like I said, it is illogical to even think about being able to "verify" God with our imperfect mind and senses. He is eternal, and since our bodies have beginnings and endings, *HOW* can His eternality be verified? It cannot. Since our knowledge is finite, how can we verify that God has infinite knowledge when we don;t even know what it means to have infinite knowledge?

Vyasadeva · Feb 24, 2003

God is controlling us. And in this control He allows us to act freely. The mind cannot understand how this is possible. The mind cannot understand the paradox because the mind is IMPERFECT.

God is able to do this because He *is* perfect. Since we cannot perfectly understand what it means to be perfect, we cannot understand how God is simultaneously controlling everything yet letting everyone act freely. God's power is inconceivable to us.

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 24, 2003

^^^^^

with the above come to the conclusion that...

One must learn to accept paradox. Paradox is reality. In my mind it is very simple how God can be controlling everything yet has given us free will. I have been through this debate from your perspective, 2-0-Sixx. Your view is very half-sided. The paradox can be reconciled but the first step is accepting that it does exist. Then, you may eventually, truly realize that God is above time. And also that there are absolute and relative truths. In the perspective of 2-0-Sixx, you see lots and lots of choices you may choose to make at every second of your life. What choices you make is up to you, on a relative level. Absolutely, God sees all, so God is not bombarded with multiplicity of choice. God is all decisions and He is all outcomes.

2-0-Sixx · Feb 24, 2003

Vyasadeva said:

That is 100% nonsense. There are countless amounts of Theists that have converted to Atheism. Your telling me that these men that were Theists there entire lives did not make a "sincere" attempt to know god?

Vyasadeva said:

God is a person? As in a living Physical organism?????
If god is the origin of "all knowledge" then your telling me that god is giving us knowledge? He is teaching me to become a stronger Atheist? Or is it MAN that teaches themselves???

If you CANNOT verify his omniscience(or anything else for that matter), then there is NO way you can truly know this. All you have is ***FAITH***. If it is illogical to even "think" about being able to verify god with our "imperfect" minds and senses, then how does one come to that conclusion? I will tell you how. It is what you have read or been taught. That is what you WANT to believe. You do NOT know any of this. And if you claim you do, then explain to me how one recieves this knowledge.

Since you are attaching words to god, and claiming that he is this or that, can we also attach these words; Almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, jut, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, imnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, and True???? Will you disagree with any of these?

Vyasadeva · Feb 25, 2003

Your question was not about people who have converted from theism to atheism. You asked *HOW* one can have any knowledge of God, and the way one can know Him is by ENDEAVORING to know Him. The *DESIRE* to know something is necessary before there can BE any knowledge of that thing.

No, not as in a physical organism. As in a spiritual person. God is the Supreme spiritual person. You are a spiritual person, but you are covered by material clay. The material energy which makes up our bodies is God's inferior energy, it cannot cover Him like it does to us.

Exactly.

Krsna says: "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge, and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; I am the compiler of the Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas." Bhagavad-Gita 15:15

Atheism is not knowledge, it is speculation.

But yes, since you desire to reject God He is giving you every faculty for doing so. You are enjoying maya, and Krsna is very happy to provide you with her.

Man is simply a vessel for relaying knowledge to one's self and to others.

Man did not INVENT the laws of gravity, or mathematics, or physics. We may teach others about these laws, but we did not "come up" with them. They exist apart from us.

And since you CANNOT verify that He is NOT omniscient, there is NO way YOU can truly know He is not. If you say He is NOT omniscient, all YOU have is ***FAITH***. You are not exempt from relying on faith, no matter how much you lie to yourself about it.

How can you verify eternity? Since your body has a beginning and it will end, it is IMPOSSIBLE and ILLOGICAL to claim that you can verify eternity.

But just because you cannot VERIFY eternity does not mean that you cannot KNOW what it means. Your inability to verify it does not mean that it is unreal.

Your claim that I do not know but that I believe, means that *you* know what I do and do not know. That is obviously nothing but speculation, and since it is not true, it is only what *YOU* want to believe.

One receives knowledge through the deductive reasoning process. For example, all men are mortal. I can make this statement NOT from empirical induction, because I myself am mortal, therefore I cannot VERIFY that every man is mortal.

However, through the deductive process, I can infer from my limited experience that any man who is born will also die. This is an ACCEPTANCE of a self-evident truth, it is not something which can be VERIFIED.

I am not "attaching" words to God. I refer to the authoritative scripture of the Vedas whenever I describe God, where are you getting these words from?

Actually nah, I don't disagree with any of those words in and of themselves. So what?

BaSICCally · Feb 25, 2003

'One of the most obtuse supersitions is the supersition of the scientits who say that man can exist without faith'

'True religions is the establishment of a relationship between man and the infinite life that surrounds him, and which binds his life to this infinity and guides his actions'

Leo Tolstoy

is god really all powerful and knowing??

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