I want to apologize....

[WHITE DEVIL]

I don't know what you're talking about but people who are PC tend to get on my nerves. Acting like color or race doesn't exist anymore is bullshit.

And acting like it's the largest, most salient, and most crucial issue facing minorities/the hip-hop community is also bullshit. Not one comment has been made about the lack of positivity in mainstream rap, or the monopoly of radio and MTV, or the recurrent, non-addressed themes in mainstream rap in this thread, or for the most part, this board.

It doesn't mean it has to stop progress, but I think acknowledging the fact that it exists is more important than trying to sweep it under the rug with a "music sees no color" statement. You're damn right it does see color...until white kids started listening and corporate America started embracing hip hop for financial gain, it was just ni**er music.

Yes, the national outcry about hip-hop was absolutely horrendous. Rap CDs were burned in massive piles, people were lynched, black and white, kids were put out on the streets, and mainstream white America vehemently attacked and protested the n***r music, just as they violently opposed jazz, soul, blues, and rock and roll. David Duke, Ronald Reagan, Weird Al Yankovic, Kurt Cobain, Neil Armstrong, all held hands in support of the banning of this "n***r music".

Take it home to some radio groupies that think you got some shit to say. White reaction to hip-hop pre "snoop, biggie, etc." was actually kinder than it was to 80's rock. Groups like AC/DC, Kiss, Twisted Sister, etc., recieved more attacks and outcries than most rap CDs. The whole parental advisory campaign did not hinge on rap music at all, it was predicated on the content in mainstream metal/rock at the time.

Once white people take to something it starts becoming ok. Before that, it's unacceptable and scary.

In some mainstream white circles...possibly. But how many white people are on the fringe of this? To how many white people does this apply? All, most? Haha...foolishness. How many white people are actually open-minded about music, race, whoop di whoop, bla bla, etc.? Alot more than you give credit. Hip-hop's intrinsic "blackness" will always be preserved and inherited. To say that White America acted with disgust, protest, and negativity to hip-hop in general is to ignore a realistic picture of the social conscious of the 80s and 90s. You're so busy conjuring and inflating racism that you fail to see from a detached perspective.

 

[Sergeant Hustle]

what the fuck is PC? Either way, I dont care of what race a person is as long as the music is tight. Isnt that the point of music, the music? Race doesnt matter to me. That doesnt mean that it doesnt exist, its just saying music is music to me.

That's is good...unforfortunatley not everyone in the past has seen it that way. That is all I am saying here.

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Nah you sayin in the present. And you're enforcing the view that race does matter.

 

[Sergeant Hustle]

As long as you emphasise color barriers everything will always be devided.

Not emphacizing...merely acknowledging. It's worse when you talk about it as if it doesn't exist. Our reality is not the reality of our parents' and generations before that. It was horrific. Even in our generation it exists, though it is masked better. I'm talking about the color barrier here.

1. Black people are embracing hip hop for financial gain just as much, if not more than any "WHITE" person in this country.

Some are, you are right. But these black people are only being let into the houses and parties and record labels of white people and white companies so that they can be raped of all they have to provide and then be thrown to the wolves. "You need to be more gangster", "You need to have more hoez", "Talk more about selling drugs". Shit is dirty...believe me I know. It's only getting worse. A kid from the 'hood has to take the bait or his mom will continue living in the projects. Black folks are being taken advantage of by a white run system.

2. What made hip hop "NIGGER MUSIC" in the first place was white people who were unwilling to accept such a culture into their society. Nothing has changed, these same class of white people still look down on it. It's just that the new age style of rap & hip hop is appealing to a much larger crowd (of kids) where it wasn't before. These kids never thought of it as "NIGGER MUSIC" they just didn't like it, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I disagree. It goes far past upper class whites and it has to do with imbedded racism in white culture and a feeling of superiority that we have which is supported by every major function in this county.

You can't possibly be upset that corporate America has turned gold hip hop albums into quintuple platinum albums.

Refer to why I feel they are wrong above....there is much more to it than that.

3. When white people grab ahold of something, it becomes "OK" by who's standards? Teachers, parents, upperclass white people are all still looking down on this culture. Who is it "OK" with now, that it wasn't "OK" with earlier? If your saying white kids, then I'll ask you to show me how it wasn't "OK" with them in the first place.

I agree with you on one hand, yes. But white people have always caught on late to what black culture has been doing. After berating it, they start to like it and it becomes pop culture, which is where it is at now. Once it's pop culture, white people start to emulate it and take it over. Flash forward 5 to 7 years and you will see. Reference jazz and blues and rock and roll.

4. When something appeals to "WHITE" kids it's always going to seem like it's acceptable because look at the number of white kids in America. If they made up for 10% of the country, we would not be having this coversation, but it's almost as if your blaming white people for being so highly populated.

Good point. It's not about population so much as it is band-wagon jumping and stealing of a culture that a few years ago in relative time you would have dismissed as inferior, scary and unbearable. Some of course still do. I'm not sayin YOU I'm just speaking in those terms.

Black people should be smiling not complaining about it like you are.

The music has been raped of it's content and boiled down to some poppy bullshit that supports mysoginy, drug and alcohol use, self-hate and materialism. This is the fault of corporate American record labels putting pressure on acts to perform in this manner...some responsibilty of course lies on the artist, but if you have nothing and someone is selling you false hopes, you'll hop at it out of desparation and pressure to conform to what you think you should be in America.

 

[Sergeant Hustle]

And acting like it's the largest, most salient, and most crucial issue facing minorities/the hip-hop community is also bullshit. Not one comment has been made about the lack of positivity in mainstream rap, or the monopoly of radio and MTV, or the recurrent, non-addressed themes in mainstream rap in this thread, or for the most part, this board.

I agree. And I eluded to that in my above post.

Take it home to some radio groupies that think you got some shit to say. White reaction to hip-hop pre "snoop, biggie, etc." was actually kinder than it was to 80's rock. Groups like AC/DC, Kiss, Twisted Sister, etc., recieved more attacks and outcries than most rap CDs. The whole parental advisory campaign did not hinge on rap music at all, it was predicated on the content in mainstream metal/rock at the time.

I would tend to disagree here. The parental advisory thing didn't really become a huge deal until 2 Live Crew, NWA and Body Count came about. Yes, some rock was attacked, but they have always gotten away with more in their lyrics than hip-hop artists.

How many white people are actually open-minded about music, race, whoop di whoop, bla bla, etc.? Alot more than you give credit. Hip-hop's intrinsic "blackness" will always be preserved and inherited. To say that White America acted with disgust, protest, and negativity to hip-hop in general is to ignore a realistic picture of the social conscious of the 80s and 90s. You're so busy conjuring and inflating racism that you fail to see from a detached perspective.

I respect what you say here, but I don't believe I am "inflating racism" by acknowledging it and being frank about it. The problem is it's not talked about enough. Most people don't know their history. Many of us were not even old enough in the early 80's to know hip hop's roots and the fire it came under even then. This requires us to take a look back and do some investigation. Hip hop has gone pop and now it is a nationwide sensation, but back to the original statement that set this off...it does see color.

 

[Sergeant Hustle]

Nah you sayin in the present. And you're enforcing the view that race does matter.

It does matter because it has always mattered...it will not disappear not for hundreds of years. You cannot think that an intitution of racism aka America that has operated under the umbrella of inequality for hundreds of years is going to disappear overnight. Our parents' generation didn't even go to the same schools if they were different races....we've come a long way but to say it does not matter would be cheating people out of a struggle that is still being fought on the daily and that has killed many.

 

[HERESY]

I can gurantee that the majority of people who say race/color doesn't matter have *NEVER* been involved with the music industry/business.


Just curious have any of you actually met an A.R. rep or are you simply a paying fan? Have any of you interned at a radio station or studio? Have any of you ever cut a song or been on a commercial release? It's EASY to say what is and what isn't but at the end of the day Hustle DOES have a point. Some of you have no idea on how the business works because you're not involved. Just like I wouldn't know what an astronaut does because im not a member of NASA but a member of A.S.C.AP


The majority of you speaking on this subject are speaking from a consumer standpoint. Big difference. You have NO idea on how record labels send artist back to re-cut songs because they aren't "black enough" or "ghetto" enough. You have NO idea on how radio stations select WHO gets play and WHY. You have NO idea on marketing and promotions and how certain demographics are targeted.



Heres a quote from STEVE SAVAGE (IF YOU DONT KNOW WHO HE IS LEAVE THE THREAD)



"...the African-derived backbeat dominates the rhythmic structure of all popular styles, from alternative rock to blues and rap, from heavy metal to hip hop and country. It's what gives the beats their tension and locks together the groove."



Eventually the majority of people will forget where your musical styles come from. When they do the majority or dominant culture will claim to be the originators...

"You're damn right it does see color...until white kids started listening and corporate America started embracing hip hop for financial gain, it was just ni**er music. Once white people take to something it starts becoming ok. Before that, it's unacceptable and scary."

That statement is true. Corporate america is making BILLIONS from rap. Rappers, Producers, composers and roadies don't make billions from rap. From burger king to t-mobile to the cartoon network to espn to general motors. THEY ALL USE RAP MUSIC IN COMMERCIALS (TO SELL PRODUCTS OR SERVICES) AND TO HIT A CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC. Once corporate america saw "nigger music" was popular they began to capitalize on the popularity. Do you honestly believe that the owners of sony or universal listen to rap music? It's STILL nigger music...but with a twist. It can be marketed, exploited and used to bring in BILLIONS.


Are black people making money from rap music? YES but are they making it to the extent of whites? NO. Minorities comprise 85-90% of the music industry but don't OWN or CONTROL 10% of the BUSINESS. You see people like master p, jay z, russell simmons, puss daddy and several others making big money. At the end of the day do they control 100% of what goes on? NO. What THEY own are subsideries which in turn get distribution from the LARGER labels (all owned by false jwes and whites). So with white people controlling the distribution venues how can they hit the big numbers? How can they own everything and see ALL of the profit? They can't unless they break bread.


How many black owned graphics companies, duplication plants and mastering facilities do you see? Not many but you see A LOT of white owned companies like the ones, I mentioned. Don't believe me? Check the back of electronic musician, mix magazine or refer to a music atlas.


:HGK:

 

[Gordon Gekko]

^^Heresy summed it all up. CASE CLOSED!

 

[TONY206]

@sinista, you gon be in the contest in the art forum? id like to see you there.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

I aint heard nothin about no contest at no forum.

 

[TONY206]

theres a sign up thread in the art forum. the contest details thread lists the prizes.

 

[Snubnoze]

my only dispute was over whites only accepting hip hop once whites where using it. As far as how the business runs, i don't think anyone is denying that the majority of corporations and companies are white owned...

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

The majority of you speaking on this subject are speaking from a consumer standpoint. Big difference. You have NO idea on how record labels send artist back to re-cut songs because they aren't "black enough" or "ghetto" enough. You have NO idea on how radio stations select WHO gets play and WHY. You have NO idea on marketing and promotions and how certain demographics are targeted.

But isn't that why we're all here? Isn't the purpose of the Siccness to give a chance to independant artists whose work generally would not end up on MTV? When, if ever, will a decentralization of the music industry occur?

If they ain't shootin right, it's time to take the gun away.

"...the African-derived backbeat dominates the rhythmic structure of all popular styles, from alternative rock to blues and rap, from heavy metal to hip hop and country. It's what gives the beats their tension and locks together the groove."

True, but the melodic and tone structure of most music no matter what genre borrows *heavily* if not completely from conventions introduced by Major composers and symphonic arrangements. The structure of most popular music, in 4/4, can be very easily traced back to Europe, Beethoven, Bach, etc.

The beat is a huge element in music. But as important is the tone, melody, and arrangement. One could easily argue that most styles of music today are a mixture of different inherited musical conventions.

Eventually the majority of people will forget where your musical styles come from. When they do the majority or dominant culture will claim to be the originators...

See but who made this claim? White people will never claim to be the originators of rap. Some whites may claim to have invented *their own* rap, but whites/other minorities will never have the right to say they invented the genre.

Corporate america is making BILLIONS from rap. Rappers, Producers, composers and roadies don't make billions from rap. From burger king to t-mobile to the cartoon network to espn to general motors. THEY ALL USE RAP MUSIC IN COMMERCIALS (TO SELL PRODUCTS OR SERVICES) AND TO HIT A CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC.

How is this any different from corporate America's indiscriminate, sweeping exploitation of any available profit source?

Once corporate america saw "nigger music" was popular they began to capitalize on the popularity. Do you honestly believe that the owners of sony or universal listen to rap music? It's STILL nigger music...but with a twist. It can be marketed, exploited and used to bring in BILLIONS.

I have no idea as to the cultural preferences of the owners of Sony or Universal...but I do know that many listen to the music before they deicde whether or not to market it. If they were all backwoods racists and listened to Merle Haggard all day, they would seriously lack any idea of what would sell.

Are black people making money from rap music? NO. At the end of the day do they control 100% of what goes on? NO. So with white people controlling the distribution venues how can they hit the big numbers? How can they own everything and see ALL of the profit? They can't unless they break bread.

See but aren't many people out here tryin to change this? What needs to happen is a paradigm shift away from major record labels, now thats what I call music, etc. The further the popular shift is from gluttonous corporations, obviously the more extensive will be the payback to the minority or Black entrepreneur.

 

[HERESY]

"But isn't that why we're all here? Isn't the purpose of the Siccness to give a chance to independant artists whose work generally would not end up on MTV? When, if ever, will a decentralization of the music industry occur?

If they ain't shootin right, it's time to take the gun away."

I don't know why ANYONE else is here. I know why I'M here. I think the purpose of the Siccness was to be the last sanctuary of west coast gangsta music. The point I was making is most people partaking in this convo/thread are speaking from a consumer standpoint. They views they hold and what they type DON'T really reflect those of people who actually are involved.


"True, but the melodic and tone structure of most music no matter what genre borrows *heavily* if not completely from conventions introduced by Major composers and symphonic arrangements. The structure of most popular music, in 4/4, can be very easily traced back to Europe, Beethoven, Bach, etc. "

Classical music is simply homophonic but syncopation is primarily an afrikan influence.I'm not disputing europe and metered music (4/4). I do disagree that most music no matter what genre borrows *heavily* if not completely from conventions introduced by major composers and symphonic aarrangements.

"The beat is a huge element in music. But as important is the tone, melody, and arrangement. One could easily argue that most styles of music today are a mixture of different inherited musical conventions."

See my previous statement. BTW before rap music had a lot of tone, melody and arrangement it was what? DRUMS. Listen to EARLY hip hop records/tapes and peep how much live instrumentation (pianos, strings, bass guitar it doesnt matter) you hear. The MAJORITY of music if not ALL of the music will be DRUMS. I agree that most styles of music ARE a combo of different styles of music. What I disagree with are the comments that actually DENY Afrikan involvement and simply say "it's just music". Well if it's "just music" and "color doesn't mater" why don't we do away with the teaching of music theory?????


"See but who made this claim? White people will never claim to be the originators of rap. Some whites may claim to have invented *their own* rap, but whites/other minorities will never have the right to say they invented the genre."


White people have claimed to be the originators of rap. A THREAD EXISTS ON THIS SITE IN THIS FORUM. IF IM NOT MISTAKING A WHITE PERSON SAID THAT THE BEASTIE BOYS INVENTED RAP.

White/European people have ALWAYS claimed credit for styles, traditions and creations that were not theirs. From the Egyptians and pyramids being european in origin (and nationality/race) to rock music to jazz....At the end of the day white people will say they invented rap. Just like white people used to put white faces on BLACK music (album covers) to sale records (refer to the 50's-60's)

"How is this any different from corporate America's indiscriminate, sweeping exploitation of any available profit source?"

It's different in many ways. One being that corporate america actually CONDENMED rap music but now they embrace it. Why do they embrace it? Because it can be implemented in marketing schemes which will bring revenue.

"I have no idea as to the cultural preferences of the owners of Sony or Universal...but I do know that many listen to the music before they deicde whether or not to market it. If they were all backwoods racists and listened to Merle Haggard all day, they would seriously lack any idea of what would sell."

Nope not true:

1.MANY LABEL OWNERS (SPEAKING OF THE BIG FIVE) DON'T LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. A&R DOES.

2.MANY ARTISTS AREN'T SIGNED BY THE LABEL *OWNERS* BUT A.R.

3.IT'S NOT ON THE LABEL OWNER (SPEAKING IN TERMS OF MAJORS) TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC AND DECIDE IF IT WOULD SELL OR NOT. THAT JOB BELONGS TO A.R.
IT'S ON A.R. TO CONSULT THE MARKETING, PRODUCT MANAGER AND ARTIST DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENTS.



"See but aren't many people out here tryin to change this?"

NO!!! Many people are trying to become whores. You CAN'T change ANYTHING in the music unless some type of structure and guidelines are implemented. IN THE BAY AREA THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. How can you change it when most artists can't spell B.M.I? It starts with LEARNING the business and to be honest thats something MOST blacks (im speaking in reference to composers, producers and artists) DON'T know.

"What needs to happen is a paradigm shift away from major record labels, now thats what I call music, etc. The further the popular shift is from gluttonous corporations, obviously the more extensive will be the payback to the minority or Black entrepreneur."

The shift will NEVER happen as long as the "little people" are blind and willing whores. It will NEVER leave the hands of the corporations until 1 of 2 things happen:

1.Artists form some type of union (a real union comprised of all "registered" artists) and demand for certain things to be changed.

2.Piracy destroys the corporations.


I see neither of the above happening.


:hgk:

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

My take is this: MTV, in denying creativity and basically reducing someone's choices to pussy ass rock, stereotypical "gangsta" rap which often contains little, if any, musically redeeming value, and Many Moore, Britney Spears, etc. has created a generation just as disaffected about music as politics. MTV has fucked off this generation's take on music as something unimportant, dated, and unessential.

Once people start caring about artists and groups, and their music, they will support said artists with CD purchases, concert attendance, etc. I don't think Napster or whatever will necessarily doom the music business, if it can move on its feet and try new things.

The kid who said white kids invented rap...LOL that was Nitrous the Goof. He kept arguing that there could have been a possibility of their invention of rap. Rap is for and by black people as a whole. It will never be a white invention.

 

[Sergeant Hustle]

A few thoughts as I re-read this thread:

Hip Hop is dead.

Hip Hop is pop.

Hip Hop is over saturated with bullshit to the point where it's even hard to distiguish what is good and what is not.

Everyone wants to be a rapper.

People want radio stations and TV to support local music.

These same people have done zero legwork in the streets to create a buzz, yet insist on radio play.

Artists that start their own business can make more money any day than a signed artist with the exception of multi-platinum artists who can deliver time and time again i.e. Jay-Z, Britney Spears.

Radio and TV are about the masses, not the 75 people on the Siccness who like to hear songs about guys eating babies.

Once an underground baby-eater goes platinum, the original fans who have screamed "Play the baby-eater!" or "How come you don't support the baby-eater!" will abandon their favorite rapper because he has then "sold out".

My synopsis: You can't win for losing.

 

[Ethereal]

Corporate america is making BILLIONS from rap. Rappers, Producers, composers and roadies don't make billions from rap [...] How many black owned graphics companies, duplication plants and mastering facilities do you see? Not many but you see A LOT of white owned companies like the ones, I mentioned. Don't believe me?

I believe you, but who's fault is it that these cats arn't investing right? 50 sold 7 million albums, and what do you think he is going to spend his money on? Is he going to place it in a savings and let the interest build, is he going to invest it into a business (black owned?), maybe start building a record label from scratch with what he does have, big or small. We both know where his money is going. Most of the companies are white owned because this country (the U.S.) was founded, established, and designed by white people, for white people. This country may have been built by spilling blood over racial ties, but the fact that all these business are still white owned is simply put, just the way the cookie crumbled. White people make up for over 80% of the U.S. population and your asking yourself why most business are white owned? Hip hop, R&b, rock, and blues were all started by black people, but when these music forms became marketable, who was there to turn to? White owned business and record labels. The music industry was established by white people before African Americans had a marketable source of music, so your only way to the top is through white owned businesses who are going to bank of your talents (regardless what your skin color is) and build from the ground up. These record labels arn't just exploiting African Americans for monetary gain, they are exploiting everyone that is musicly inclined. From what I can see, a lot of people are upset that white record label owners didn't look at this music and say "Hey this is your culture, here, this is my business, and this is how it works". The way your making it sound is that, rap was the beginning of the music industry and once white people saw it, they built these business when in fact these businesses were already there -- now they are just much larger, and still white owned.

My personal belief is that every marketable source of music that is derived from and dominated by African Americans, should (not *ALL*) be ran through black owned businesses. I don't want to see all black labels and all white labels, but I would like to see a MAJORITY of this music controlled by African Americans so they can prosper off something created within their own culture. My only arguement is that, you can't blame anyone today for the way things are controlled. Every owner is trying to get his just like you and me. Talking about how bent out of shape the industry is, is not going to help to fix the problem. Control is never going to be handed over and I don't see that it needs to be. YOU MUST BUILD ANEW.

It is because of "WHITE" people that the game turned out this way.
It is because of "BLACK" people that the game remains this way, and unchanged in their favor.

If you told a platinum artist everything you just laid out on this board, do you think he is going to comprehend it all and make a change, or will his greedy conscience rest more comfortably selling albums to satisy his own desires. It takes more than just teaching artists about the industry, you have to come in to touch with their way of thinking. It's going to take a lot of people (forming a union is a brilliant idea) and if it does happen, others will catch on and begin to follow.

I wish the best for the hip hop culture, I hope some day it lies in the hands of it's creaters, but until it does, you just have to make the best of it.