Heaven with no hell?
- Thread starter JazzFan
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My friend think that everyone will go to heaven as everyone is good. He says a soul is given by god and therefore it cannot be changed, it can be lost but not changed. He focuses on the good and ignores the bad.
I feel you ccytzo, all or nothing. He doesnt believe that people will go to hell yet people will go to heaven and he sees religion as just being made for you to suffer and follow rules and regulations.
I feel you ccytzo, all or nothing. He doesnt believe that people will go to hell yet people will go to heaven and he sees religion as just being made for you to suffer and follow rules and regulations.
I believe Heaven and Hell go hand in hand. Either you in one place or the other. Hell is like God giving you a spankin. It's when you are in Hell and you never want to get out that's bad. Cuz that means your punishment isn't workin and your never gonna learn shit. Hell wasn't meant to be a place you stay at, it's a tool God uses to teach us things. Everybody was meant to advance to a higher level of understanding. The eternal lake of fire is where you go when you refuse to learn or accept God's teachings.The devil uses this place as an excuse to keep on doing wrongass shit with no consequences. It's a mockery of God's forgiveness and a futile attempt at an illusion of power over his maker. Here is the epitamy of selfishness defined at it's root, and where evil was born.
Why do people take the suffering in this world for granted?
How can there only be heaven if there is suffering and ignorance here? This world is proof of hell.
Constitutionally, yes, the soul is not corrupt. But the soul is allowed, by the grace of God, to remain in whatever conception of life it has, which is often due to false ego. We suffer because we fail to recognize our true position. That position is in relation to God and that relationship is in our devotional service to Him.
So, even though we are all consitutionally pure, we suffer due to the illusion of identifying self apart from God. That illusion is of the subtle mind. The material energy consists of the gross and the subtle. People often mistake the mind for the soul. The soul transcends both the gross body and the subtle mind. This subtle mind is also born of this world just as is the body. The souls have fallen here because they desired to be enjoyers apart from God. Actually, God is the enjoyer. We are the enjoyed. By being the enjoyed we become enjoyers as well. Somehow or other we thought at some point in our existence that we could be all-in-all enjoyers, just like God is. God doesn't need us to enjoy, He is filled with inconceivable internal pleasure potencies. So we have decided to try and be God, that is how we fell.
Hell is a greater degree of suffering. No one has to go to hell. We move up or down in this world of birth, death, disease and old age due to karma. But karma (or sin) can be burnt up by God. The problem is, if one does not desire to transcend these karmic designations, then why is God going to do anything about one's suffering?
How can there only be heaven if there is suffering and ignorance here? This world is proof of hell.
Constitutionally, yes, the soul is not corrupt. But the soul is allowed, by the grace of God, to remain in whatever conception of life it has, which is often due to false ego. We suffer because we fail to recognize our true position. That position is in relation to God and that relationship is in our devotional service to Him.
So, even though we are all consitutionally pure, we suffer due to the illusion of identifying self apart from God. That illusion is of the subtle mind. The material energy consists of the gross and the subtle. People often mistake the mind for the soul. The soul transcends both the gross body and the subtle mind. This subtle mind is also born of this world just as is the body. The souls have fallen here because they desired to be enjoyers apart from God. Actually, God is the enjoyer. We are the enjoyed. By being the enjoyed we become enjoyers as well. Somehow or other we thought at some point in our existence that we could be all-in-all enjoyers, just like God is. God doesn't need us to enjoy, He is filled with inconceivable internal pleasure potencies. So we have decided to try and be God, that is how we fell.
Hell is a greater degree of suffering. No one has to go to hell. We move up or down in this world of birth, death, disease and old age due to karma. But karma (or sin) can be burnt up by God. The problem is, if one does not desire to transcend these karmic designations, then why is God going to do anything about one's suffering?
Yes, that is the consitution of the soul. But who realizes that?
Someone once told me on another messageboard, "if God will accept me as I am then I will surrender to Him."
I told him that God does accept you for who you are. The problem is, you don't know who you are. You may think self in relation to this body and to the place of birth and to being born in such and such family and having certain material likes and dislikes, etc, etc, etc, but that is all false designation born out of ignorance of self and God. God basically says, "If you want to be an animal I will send you to the forest." Man proposes, God disposes. You suffer because you don't know who you are.
The self is not changed, just covered by ignorance. So I agree with what your friend is saying somewhat, but we cannot ignore the fact that we are suffering. We cannot ignore that we are ignorant of our spiritual position.
True religion is not man-made. Now, whether a certain literature is God-word or not is up to use of our common sense. People tend to think that religion was made in order to control people. Ok, that is called self control. Human life is characterized by self control. Anything else is animal life. That is fine though, if you want to be an animal, God will arrange it. God is not limited in this department, (or any at that). The wrong idea is that religion was made for people to control people. Control means steadiness of the mind and the senses. That makes is easier for people to live spiritual life without the hindrance of a perverted mind and sense gratification. Historically people may have used religion to control others for their own perverted purpose. That is very unfortunate. People should not accept anything blindly. Always use common sense and be open to hearing other's ideas.
Someone once told me on another messageboard, "if God will accept me as I am then I will surrender to Him."
I told him that God does accept you for who you are. The problem is, you don't know who you are. You may think self in relation to this body and to the place of birth and to being born in such and such family and having certain material likes and dislikes, etc, etc, etc, but that is all false designation born out of ignorance of self and God. God basically says, "If you want to be an animal I will send you to the forest." Man proposes, God disposes. You suffer because you don't know who you are.
The self is not changed, just covered by ignorance. So I agree with what your friend is saying somewhat, but we cannot ignore the fact that we are suffering. We cannot ignore that we are ignorant of our spiritual position.
True religion is not man-made. Now, whether a certain literature is God-word or not is up to use of our common sense. People tend to think that religion was made in order to control people. Ok, that is called self control. Human life is characterized by self control. Anything else is animal life. That is fine though, if you want to be an animal, God will arrange it. God is not limited in this department, (or any at that). The wrong idea is that religion was made for people to control people. Control means steadiness of the mind and the senses. That makes is easier for people to live spiritual life without the hindrance of a perverted mind and sense gratification. Historically people may have used religion to control others for their own perverted purpose. That is very unfortunate. People should not accept anything blindly. Always use common sense and be open to hearing other's ideas.
Maybe the earth is hell...and after you die you go to heaven, or get reborn on earth to try again...
Jazzfan, I suggest you check out a movie called "defending your life" it's a comedy by Albert Brooks...it's a couple of years old, but it's a classic...I kinda believe something like that...
Basically the premise of the movie, is you are born on earth, then when you die, you to go to midway point of heaven...and you are put on trial...with a defender and prosecutor and judge...
And they watch movies of your life...The defender, basically gives all the reasons you should be let into heaven, and the prosecutor, gives all the reasons you shouldn't. Then it's up to the judge to decide. If you pass, you are granted access to heaven, if you fail...you are sent back to earth to be reborn as a baby, and live a new life again...
Jazzfan, I suggest you check out a movie called "defending your life" it's a comedy by Albert Brooks...it's a couple of years old, but it's a classic...I kinda believe something like that...
Basically the premise of the movie, is you are born on earth, then when you die, you to go to midway point of heaven...and you are put on trial...with a defender and prosecutor and judge...
And they watch movies of your life...The defender, basically gives all the reasons you should be let into heaven, and the prosecutor, gives all the reasons you shouldn't. Then it's up to the judge to decide. If you pass, you are granted access to heaven, if you fail...you are sent back to earth to be reborn as a baby, and live a new life again...
I disagree with my how my friend will accept things about of the bible like loving people but will reject the story of Adam and Eve being cast of of the garden and Eve being punished by having childbirth be painful. He instead uses science, a baby coming out of a small hole.
I still cant understand if he believes in God yet can he deny the devil. He totally rejects the notion of being judged by god. So you just walk right into heaven.
I still cant understand if he believes in God yet can he deny the devil. He totally rejects the notion of being judged by god. So you just walk right into heaven.
I feel you have to have some sort of foundation to base a truth you stand on. If you are utilizing the bible as that source for your beliefs or nonbelief, then its a matter of rightly dividing the word of God to distinguish some questions the individual may have. Not to mention, God assisting you to understand and interpret the word. I think its easy for the mass majority of people to form any belief system that suits themselves. One that gives them the liberty to live without any boundaries so to speak. God is not the authour of confusion, and he definitely wants to help us more than we seek help for ourselves. He allows us to be free moral agents, that is the reason there are so many choices that are made by mankind that are diverted from the truth. With a free will man can fathom what he desires, nevertheless it doesn' t make it truth. God cannot lie, If you believe the word of God is truly insprired by God, He can help anyone seeking more questions they have regarding anything they need assistance with. His word cannot return unto him bound. Meaning whatever he spoke into existence will come to pass and thats that. To get to point of heaven and hell. There is definitely a heaven and a hell. Its easy to go with the notion that there isn't a hell because the average human cannot fathom eternal punishment, judgement etc... Its easier to just believe theres no hell with no foundation to base it on, because it makes life a little easier to ride without the conviction, the possibility of uncertainty and the probability of not going to heaven. I wouldn't really want to argue my position, cause i truly believe the word of God is so much of a blessing to us and I believe God is the one with the last say in the end. I much rather explore the possibility of finding a way to get closer to him than distancing myself from him. No one comes to God, yet the spirit of God draw him. And for the spirit it returns to its maker which of course is he who gave it, the body of course returns to the ground. And the soul is the seat of your emotions etc.. It awaits the judgement. Either you are clothed with a new body and live eternally with God or Hell awaits us if we didn't live according to Gods word. It seems like people understand there are laws for everthing in society that we have to abide by, but as soon as it comes to God they have a unique way of aborting that same fundemental veiw.
Damn you hit it on the head there Inferno. He doesnt seem to think that god will punish people as that would make him 2 sided, Good and Bad etc.
I'll let him read it, I wanted him to post up his beliefs himself but he declined saying that he'd have to defend them and he doesnt want to waste the time.
I'll let him read it, I wanted him to post up his beliefs himself but he declined saying that he'd have to defend them and he doesnt want to waste the time.
@jazzfan I believe your friend will be o.k. with some guidance and direction. First, I believe he is entitled to believe anything his heart desires. God on the other hand really is interested in assisting him through lifes obstacles. The bible says theres no remission(removal)of sin without the shedding of blood. Hence Jesus is the only one I know that died and shed blood as a ransom sacrifice to pay our debt. No one has to agree on my understanding of God, but like I said he will be the one you stand in front of at the judgement. "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess him as Lord." direct quote from the word. Thus everyone will give it up to him, no matter whether you believe he exists or not.
Jesus shed blood to teach us a lesson. Which I believe to be different then what everybody else thinks.
I believe He was teaching us how to fight. He basically showed us that you could do everything right in God's eyes and live peacefully and do nothin but teach and help people out, and the wicked will still come to kill you with no justification other than a lie and the means to do so.
Self righteous suicide was Jesus' last lesson to man. Live by the sword die by the sword. He lived under oppression and oppression killed Him. God's people are not weak they just forgot how to fight.
It's like this you feel sorry for somebody so your not gonna hurt them. But everyday that person comes and hurts you. You figure you can't save this person by whoopin thier ass cuz all that will do is strengthen his hatred, all you can do is sit back and hope he developes some form of compassion and realizes the error of his ways. He knows you think this way and uses that to his advantage and beats the shit out of you every damn day. What do you do?
You kill him. Cuz whoopin his ass will only teach him to feed on somebody weaker then himself. And that wouldn't help the situation. It would only temporarily solve your problem but would ultimately only spread oppression. Some people will not change. Some people's only lesson is death. If life is a gift from God and you abuse that gift it should be stripped from you.
If God's children refuse to fight then they will be killed like lambs led to the slaughter.
I believe He was teaching us how to fight. He basically showed us that you could do everything right in God's eyes and live peacefully and do nothin but teach and help people out, and the wicked will still come to kill you with no justification other than a lie and the means to do so.
Self righteous suicide was Jesus' last lesson to man. Live by the sword die by the sword. He lived under oppression and oppression killed Him. God's people are not weak they just forgot how to fight.
It's like this you feel sorry for somebody so your not gonna hurt them. But everyday that person comes and hurts you. You figure you can't save this person by whoopin thier ass cuz all that will do is strengthen his hatred, all you can do is sit back and hope he developes some form of compassion and realizes the error of his ways. He knows you think this way and uses that to his advantage and beats the shit out of you every damn day. What do you do?
You kill him. Cuz whoopin his ass will only teach him to feed on somebody weaker then himself. And that wouldn't help the situation. It would only temporarily solve your problem but would ultimately only spread oppression. Some people will not change. Some people's only lesson is death. If life is a gift from God and you abuse that gift it should be stripped from you.
If God's children refuse to fight then they will be killed like lambs led to the slaughter.
@Ender, First I respect your opinion because I believe it is very beneficial to learn how someone else sees, interprets or believes for that matter.
I think its best for us to establish a basis for our belief or claim to set a precedent.
Its interesting to note there are various forms of doctrines that people adhere to. If the bible is the final authority we are making our assesments from then we have somewhat of a level playing field. I say this because its easy to refute scripture with the notion of a wrong interpretation, miscostruing the facts or not comprehending the text.
With that said, its hard to come to some common ground unless we are both using the same basis as a starting point.
In the Old Testament they offered animals as a sacrifice for their sins with each repeated offence. Lambs that were used had to be without blemish. Jesus became our sacrificial lamb to take away the sins of the world once and for all. The shedding of his blood covered our debt. (Hebrews 9:12).
I agree that man has inherited a sinful nature, and the bible does state that there is no good thing that dwells in man. Meaning the only thing that is good that is in you is what God places in you. Hence any good work or deed that we do is initiated by God. I believe there were many things that he was trying to teach us.
Not sure im following the implication of Self righteous suicide. I do remember him praying in the Garden for God to take the cup away from him if it were possible. And i know he was trying to figure if there were another way to accomplish the task at hand. Although he did profess that it wasn't his will but the Fathers that he surrendered to. He also stated that he willingly laid down his life and that no one could take it from him.
I comprehend where you're going, not sure if completely understand your analogy or literal interpretation.
I think its best for us to establish a basis for our belief or claim to set a precedent.
Its interesting to note there are various forms of doctrines that people adhere to. If the bible is the final authority we are making our assesments from then we have somewhat of a level playing field. I say this because its easy to refute scripture with the notion of a wrong interpretation, miscostruing the facts or not comprehending the text.
With that said, its hard to come to some common ground unless we are both using the same basis as a starting point.
In the Old Testament they offered animals as a sacrifice for their sins with each repeated offence. Lambs that were used had to be without blemish. Jesus became our sacrificial lamb to take away the sins of the world once and for all. The shedding of his blood covered our debt. (Hebrews 9:12).
I agree that man has inherited a sinful nature, and the bible does state that there is no good thing that dwells in man. Meaning the only thing that is good that is in you is what God places in you. Hence any good work or deed that we do is initiated by God. I believe there were many things that he was trying to teach us.
Not sure im following the implication of Self righteous suicide. I do remember him praying in the Garden for God to take the cup away from him if it were possible. And i know he was trying to figure if there were another way to accomplish the task at hand. Although he did profess that it wasn't his will but the Fathers that he surrendered to. He also stated that he willingly laid down his life and that no one could take it from him.
I comprehend where you're going, not sure if completely understand your analogy or literal interpretation.
I AgREE WITH WHAT INFERNO WAS INITIALLY STATIN'. JUST THE HELL PART I KNOW AIN'T A PLACE OF TORMENT. BUT IF YOU'RE A SICCNESS VET(ESPECIALLY THIS FORUM), THIS TOPIC BEEN TALKED ABOUT OVER AND OVER, AgAIN'. I SUggEST YOU HIT THIS LINK AND SEE MY POINTS:
http://siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?threadid=82156&goto=newpost
http://siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?threadid=82156&goto=newpost