God's Will

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ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#21
ok, well, if i could, i would.
but logic is limiting.
But how do you know what is true and what is not, if logic and facts are limiting??


i'll try to explain in my own words the best that i possibly can.
now, i never believed in praying or 'hoping' to some bullshit, i never believed in God, i thought we died, our energy is passed into the wind, etc. Now i was still depressed at that point, i felt still that things were not right.

then i realized whenever i lived with my feelings and love, not feelings based off of ego, but feelings based off Love, then i had so much better of a day and everyone elses lives were enriched.

so i started living with my feelings, and i realized when i studied the cross cultural impact of praying, meditating, etc, that i felt 'more' alive. i understand that this is a neurological process, i agree with that explanation completely, and i know it happens. But what caused my body and whole Self feel better for praying?

if this process is not something that is scientifically needed then how come my health has become increasingly better, my female problems gone, and anxiety nonexistant?
yes its because i have less stress, and more love, but how come now? why not when i aknowledged that life will be over and my energy will just be transformed?

the only difference in my diet and excercise from before to now, is that i do not eat land animal's flesh or organs.
There is something called endorphin, a class of compounds that your brain synthesizes and that make you feel good. Among their effects is their positive influence on physiology. I can see the connection here. But this is again a very materialistic explanation and it does not involve any "energies" and etc. BS
 
Mar 18, 2003
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#22
If God has a will and it will be done, then what good does praying do?
People pray to show their loyalty to god, and to give thanks. The fact the some people pray to God as a means of acquiring goods should have no barring over those who simply want to establish some form of communication.
 
Jan 31, 2008
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#23
But how do you know what is true and what is not, if logic and facts are limiting??
logic and facts are limiting in the sense that they come from the mind, therefore are limited and flawed by the mind.


There is something called endorphin, a class of compounds that your brain synthesizes and that make you feel good. Among their effects is their positive influence on physiology. I can see the connection here. But this is again a very materialistic explanation and it does not involve any "energies" and etc. BS
your definition of Energies varies, just as your definition of Cosmic Consciousness, and thats understandable when you look at the flaws in "factual evidence" that are always interpretted subjectively and mean different things to different people.

you cant always break it down to "there is a chemical in your brain called oxytocin that makes you feel love, love is nothing but a chemical reaction" because youd then need to answer that yes , the effect is the body releasing those chemicals, but what is the cause? obviously the cause is formless and occurs before anything is felt.
 
Apr 8, 2005
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#24
I will not demand a rigorous neurological explanation of what you mean, I will just ask you a simple question: why do you need to pray to a non-existent, imaginary higher being in order to achieve the same pattern of brain activity as visualizing a goal (which is presumably beneficial for you), when you can just focus on that goal??
because people believe that these are things they cannot do without the power of god. even if god is non existent, the idea of an all powerful god that can make anything happen, helps people to believe that their goal is actually possible. thats the first step, then once they see it all coming about, they start believing more and more that it is possible and therefor eventually reach their goal. its hard to explain, but you dont need to pray to god you can just focus on the goal, but god is the only one that some people think can make their goals possible or realistic
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#25
logic and facts are limiting in the sense that they come from the mind, therefore are limited and flawed by the mind.
LMAO

And where do all of your insane ideas come from? They are not flawed, right?

BTW, there is a very good reason why science is the only way for discovering the objective truth about the world around that exists and it is a very simple one - it works. Basing our reasoning on logic and facts and rigorous methodology got us on the moon among countless other things, this is the best proof that a method is working



your definition of Energies varies, just as your definition of Cosmic Consciousness, and thats understandable when you look at the flaws in "factual evidence" that are always interpretted subjectively and mean different things to different people.

you cant always break it down to "there is a chemical in your brain called oxytocin that makes you feel love, love is nothing but a chemical reaction" because youd then need to answer that yes , the effect is the body releasing those chemicals, but what is the cause? obviously the cause is formless and occurs before anything is felt.
sigh...

Since you refuse to follow logic, and since you apparently have skipped all your science and biology classes, I will not bother to write 2000 words explaining
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#26
because people believe that these are things they cannot do without the power of god. even if god is non existent, the idea of an all powerful god that can make anything happen, helps people to believe that their goal is actually possible. thats the first step, then once they see it all coming about, they start believing more and more that it is possible and therefor eventually reach their goal. its hard to explain, but you dont need to pray to god you can just focus on the goal, but god is the only one that some people think can make their goals possible or realistic
And we have to absolutely fool ourselves about the world around us, just because some people feel well about it....

This is insane to say the least
 
Jan 31, 2008
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#27
LMAO

And where do all of your insane ideas come from? They are not flawed, right?

BTW, there is a very good reason why science is the only way for discovering the objective truth about the world around that exists and it is a very simple one - it works. Basing our reasoning on logic and facts and rigorous methodology got us on the moon among countless other things, this is the best proof that a method is working





sigh...

Since you refuse to follow logic, and since you apparently have skipped all your science and biology classes, I will not bother to write 2000 words explaining
you are one ignorant mother fucker.
rather than trying to view the objective world subjectively, you should spend a quarter of the time wasted on that and study yourself subjectively, and you will see how limited a perception on either,or a perception in its own essence as a Perception is.

congratulations to man for landing on the moon,so now all thats left is for man to learn to live with his self....



EDIT: " The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive."
 
Apr 8, 2005
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#28
And we have to absolutely fool ourselves about the world around us, just because some people feel well about it....

This is insane to say the least
YOU dont HAVE to do anything, but for some people, belief in god makes them feel as if their goals are possible, which puts them on a road to reaching these goals
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#29
YOU dont HAVE to do anything, but for some people, belief in god makes them feel as if their goals are possible, which puts them on a road to reaching these goals
It also forces them into completely irrational behavior and predisposes them to totally inadequate worldview, both with detrimental consequences to society and nature
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#34
Straw man

BTW German scientists of the WW2 era actually contributed a lot to the development of science
Actually, it isn't a strawman argument. I'm not presenting anything new that is a misrepresentation of anything you've stated. In addition, I haven't made the claim that what you originally stated was false. Considering these two things are prerequisites for a strawman argument, your claim that I'm presenting a strawman has no merit.

You're the one making the claim that belief in God "forces them into completely irrational behavior and predisposes them to totally inadequate worldview, both with detrimental consequences to society and nature" all while attempting to be the self-appointed harbinger of scientific proof and rationale. However, you are failing to realize that the very same thing you said about those who believe in God, can and should, be applied to many people in the scientific field (past, present and future.)

So, the German scientist of WWII actually contributed to the development of science? Well that's a good thing I commend them for it. BTW, do you commend them for the many experiments they did on so-called jews?

I guess the belief in racial superiority isn't completely irrational, isn't an inadequate worldview, and has no detrimental consequences to society and nature, nah, it can't be when you do stuff like this:

http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/nazidocsandothers.html
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#35
Actually, it isn't a strawman argument. I'm not presenting anything new that is a misrepresentation of anything you've stated. In addition, I haven't made the claim that what you originally stated was false. Considering these two things are prerequisites for a strawman argument, your claim that I'm presenting a strawman has no merit.

You're the one making the claim that belief in God "forces them into completely irrational behavior and predisposes them to totally inadequate worldview, both with detrimental consequences to society and nature" all while attempting to be the self-appointed harbinger of scientific proof and rationale. However, you are failing to realize that the very same thing you said about those who believe in God, can and should, be applied to many people in the scientific field (past, present and future.)

So, the German scientist of WWII actually contributed to the development of science? Well that's a good thing I commend them for it. BTW, do you commend them for the many experiments they did on so-called jews?

I guess the belief in racial superiority isn't completely irrational, isn't an inadequate worldview, and has no detrimental consequences to society and nature, nah, it can't be when you do stuff like this:

http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/nazidocsandothers.html
It is exactly a straw man because you are using something that is commonly considered discredited to attack science as a whole when it is completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed.

Anyway, do you have any proof that:

1. all Nazi scientists believed in racial supremacy (obviously false)
2. racial supremacy is a completely irrational concept (also false, whether it is a correct concept is an entirely different topic but it is certainly not irrational)

I don't think so

It is good to remember that they were able to obtain data that we can't obtain today and it is very sad we are so restrained today when we could learn so much more. We have never had more useless people than we have today, in the same time we have never had more questions to answer that we can't answer because of "ethical considerations"

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending Nazi scientists who were simply torturing people for the sake of getting a sadistic kick out of it, but those who did real science and got the most out of the opportunity given them have to be admired
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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www.godscalamity.com
www.godscalamity.com
#36
It is exactly a straw man because you are using something that is commonly considered discredited to attack science as a whole when it is completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed.
Again, I'm not using a strawman, but the fact you're going back and forth with me on it should tell you something about your debating skills and perspective. Don't get sidetracked. No, it was not completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed as part of the issue being discussed is science and how you and several others believe it is the best thing since free diseased free pussy. What you said, which is what I quoted, is commonly used to attack religion. We will touch on this later.

Anyway, do you have any proof that:

1. all Nazi scientists believed in racial supremacy (obviously false)
Never calimed they did nor implied it. Please read my previous post again,

2. racial supremacy is a completely irrational concept (also false, whether it is a correct concept is an entirely different topic but it is certainly not irrational)
What type of proof do you require that supports the claim that racial superiority is completely irrational? You tell me the type you want and I'll give it to you.

I don't think so
Now you're using the begging the question fallacy. No need for that, Thag. If you want to pose a rhetorical or hypothetical question do so. If you want me to actually answer don't jump the gun like that.

It is good to remember that they were able to obtain data that we can't obtain today and it is very sad we are so restrained today when we could learn so much more. We have never had more useless people than we have today, in the same time we have never had more questions to answer that we can't answer because of "ethical considerations"
I'll keep my mouth shut on this one and let the readers chew on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending Nazi scientists who were simply torturing people for the sake of getting a sadistic kick out of it, but those who did real science and got the most out of the opportunity given them have to be admired
No one has to be admired. Part of the reason why this world is in shambles now is because people go admiring people for the fuck of it or because they have some emotional attachment they can't shake.

Anyway, I said I was going to touch on something earlier so I'll do it now. You know how people say, "religion is used to control the masses" and things like that? Well, anything can be used to control the masses as long as the masses are receptive to it or predisposed to being controlled and this will bring me to your statement again.

What you said can be applied to any agent of socialization, or anything that requires a person to think and act, not just religion. Your entire premise is - science good, religion bad - but you're failing to realize the same thing you're applying to religion can be applied to science because it's a very general statement.

I'll give you an example. If thatguy said: "belief in a GANG makes them feel as if their goals are possible, which puts them on a road to reaching these goals." your statement of "It also forces them into completely irrational behavior and predisposes them to totally inadequate worldview, both with detrimental consequences to society and nature" would still be applicable. This is NOT a distortion of your view nor is it saying your view is wrong. I'm simply saying your view is a hasty generalization that can be applied to anything.
 
Jan 31, 2008
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#37
you are one ignorant mother fucker.
rather than trying to view the objective world subjectively, you should spend a quarter of the time wasted on that and study yourself subjectively, and you will see how limited a perception on either,or a perception in its own essence as a Perception is.

congratulations to man for landing on the moon,so now all thats left is for man to learn to live with his self....



EDIT: " The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive."
since you wont reply, i will add on to this from an excerpt from a page i read tonight that might enlighten you to the fact that science is no different than your view of 'religion'.

before i do that, you still havent answered my question from over a month ago, so... if it was scientifically valid for you to blow yourself up killing others for a greater good, would you?


now, to the excerpt (rekomstop you might like this):

"The multifarious forms around us, says he, are constituted of the five
elements. They are transient, and in a state of perpetual flux.
Also they are governed, by the law of causation. All this applies
to the body and the mind also, both of which are transient and
subject to birth and death. We know that only by means of the
bodily senses and the mind can the world be known. As in the
Kantian view, it is a correlate of the human knowing subject,
and, therefore, has the fundamental structure of our way of
knowing. This means that time, space and causality are not
‘objective’, or extraneous entities, but mental categories in
which everything is moulded. The existence and form of all
things depend upon the mind. Cognition is a mental product.

And the world as seen from the mind is a subjective and private
world, which changes continuously in accordance with the
restlessness of the mind itself.
In opposition to the restless mind, with its limited categories —
intentionality, subjectivity, duality etc. — stands supreme the
limitless sense of ‘I am’. The only thing I can be sure about is, that
‘I am’ not as a thinking ‘I am’ in the Cartesian sense, but without
any predicates. Again and again Maharaj draws our attention to
this basic fact in order to make us realize our ‘I am-ness’ and thus
get rid of all self-made prisons. He says: The only true statement
is ‘I am’. All else is mere inference. By no effort can you change
the ‘I am’ into ‘I am-not’.
Behold, the real experiencer is not the mind, but myself, the
light in which everything appears. Self is the common factor at the
root of all experience, the awareness in which everything hap-
pens. The entire field of consciousness is only as a film, or a
speck, in ‘I am’. This ‘I am-ness’ is, being conscious of con-
sciousness, being aware of itself. And it is indescribable, be-
cause it has no attributes. It is only being my self, and being my
self is all that there is. Everything that exists, exists as my self.
There is nothing which is different from me. There is no duality
and, therefore, no pain. There are no problems. It is the sphere of
love, in which everything is perfect."
 
Apr 8, 2005
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#38
It also forces them into completely irrational behavior and predisposes them to totally inadequate world view, both with detrimental consequences to society and nature
unless they are intensely radical i dont see any irrational behavior, the inadequate world view is an opinion.... that world view doesnt hurt you in any way besides being pestered by door to door church people. detrimental consequences.... i see what your saying here, with war and shit, but if we didnt fight over religion you know damn well it would be something else, thats a part of human nature
 
Nov 10, 2006
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#39
If God has a will and it will be done, then what good does praying do?
Even Moses, when faced with the destruction of Israel by God after they had built the golden calf to worship, interceded before God and asked Him to CHANGE His will. God heard Moses' plea and relented from what He said He was going to do (Exodus 32:9-14)
 
Nov 17, 2002
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#40
I'm a deist. We're playing catch up and it's simply a means to stay on track.
de·ism

n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

Source:
"deist." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 23 Sep. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deist>.


Really? You're a deist now?