Freddie Roach to star in his own TV Series on AMC

[MOREBASS]

Would Pacquiao have been a great fighter with another top trainer? Definitely a possitility.


Would he have been as good as he is with Freddie Roach? Questionable.


I'm telling you, it was the perfect marriage. Besides Chris, there's a reason why guys are flocking to work with Freddie...the best MMA fighters in the world go to Freddie Roach for help with their boxing. He's one of the busiest trainers in the world for a reason.

You're not giving the guy enough credit.

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

He has the highest profile gym and fighter in the world IN Hollywood/Southern California. I would expect a grip of people to work with him. I don't know for sure but other boxing trainers may not want to work with MMA fighters. I personally never liked the idea because they're only semi interested in boxing most of the time (when I was training fighters).

I think there's no argument about Pac/Roach as far as their relationship which does count for something, no doubt about that but I think it also speaks volumes that his highest profile fighters like Toney, Hopkins or DLH left him. Or even Israel Vasquez fighting better with Rudy Perez as his trainer.

Is Roach great? He'll be remembered as one of the better trainers ever by most I'm sure but he's not the greatest by a long shot to me.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Roach's best gift to me is to pick opponents that will be a high reward/low risk for Pacquiao.

riiiiiiiiiiight. Roach doesn't make the fights for pacquiao. bob arum does. Roach wanted Marquez, arum gets mosley. Roach didn't want Margarito, arum gets Margarito, and so on. Barrera, Marquez, Morales, Cotto, Hatton, Oscar, Clottey, etc., none of these guys Roach picked for pacquiao, bob arum did.

He has trained a lot of fighters but there's a reason why most of them don't stay with him for very long, they usually end up losing a big fight with Roach as their trainer. Nearly all of the name fighters he's trained were already Champions or titlists and had a bulk of the boxing knowledge/skill they needed when they met roach. They are best served by the quality of sparring and learning they get from the other fighters in the gym with them as they train.

Nein!

Roach is one of the best fundamental trainers in boxing. This is one of the most obvious areas that he's great. It was so clear in a recent fight, with the sloppy Julio Cesar Chavez jr. who always looked like absolute trash, but suddenly looked like a B+ fighter against John Duddy after only a short 4-6 weeks of training with Freddie Roach. Why? Because Chavez learned the basics with Roach and it improved his game drastically. Now, Chavez will probably never be an elite fighter because he's gay, but that is an example right there of a fighter that was never taught fundamentals and Roach laying it down.

Roach also is a great game planner. He comes up with strategies to beat the opponent very well and for the most part he gets his fighters to follow through.

He gives good advice during the fights, remains calm never overloads the fighters with information.

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

I think he gives crap advice between rounds, frequently to most of his fighters. He tells them to stick with the gameplan for better or worse. Instead of telling DLH to stay on his toes and jab against Floyd which was clearly working, they had him trying to pressure Floyd which had little affect. I don't remember him telling Khan to go back to the body after Maidana was obviously affected big time by the body shot. Those are just 2 blatant examples.

Roach isn't the sole decision maker by any means but he does pick fights to some extent or another. If Roach said, no way, we're not fighting this guy, it wouldn't happen. Roach, Pac and Arum are the trifecta of cherry picking opponents. Roach doesn't get a ton of credit for picking Marquez when pretty much no one gives him a shot at winning.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I think he gives crap advice between rounds, frequently to most of his fighters. He tells them to stick with the gameplan for better or worse. Instead of telling DLH to stay on his toes and jab against Floyd which was clearly working, they had him trying to pressure Floyd which had little affect. I don't remember him telling Khan to go back to the body after Maidana was obviously affected big time by the body shot. Those are just 2 blatant examples.

Roach isn't the sole decision maker by any means but he does pick fights to some extent or another. If Roach said, no way, we're not fighting this guy, it wouldn't happen. Roach, Pac and Arum are the trifecta of cherry picking opponents. Roach doesn't get a ton of credit for picking Marquez when pretty much no one gives him a shot at winning.

Roach is the one wanting Mayeather more than anything else so I don't know what you want them to do. Anyone Pac fights right now he's the favorite - Marquez, Mosley, Berto. All three of them Pac is a heavy favorite. So until Floyd gets his head out of his ass it's always going to be this way.

It's funny Pacquiao is considered a cherry picker now, I guess that's the backlash after selecting twitching shane mosley for his next bout but he was an underdog in many of his fights and of course climbed the weight classes while doing it. Again, Barrera, Marquez, Morales, Cotto, Hatton, Oscar, most of these fights he was the underdog or the odds were very close.

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

As well he should be the favorite but when you're a 12 to 1 favorite as opposed to maybe a 2 to 1 favorite, that's a big difference. I'll never forget that he only agreed to fight Cotto after he saw that Cotto had a really tough time with Clottey and said "I can beat him, I'll fight him." That explains a lot about his career. Most of the guys you named were coming off of a bad loss or 1 fight removed from a really tough fight. Floyd gets a lot of crap for his opponent selection but Manny's doing the same thing. He fights in a more exciting style, no question but he's cherry picking opponents like he has been since fighting morales

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Pacquiao was a 135 pound fighter when he fought Oscar, who was a 154 pound fighter. Oscar was a huge favorite. Everyone was saying Oscar was going to knock him out and that Pac was just too small. That's cherry picking?

Ricky Hatton was the lineal 140 pound champion, undefeated at that weight. That's cherry picking?

Miguel Cotto was a welterweight champion. Pacquiao had never fought someone that big and was moving up in weight once again. Everyone agrees that was a great win for Pacquiao and a tremendous performance on his part.

Joshua Clottey is a big welterweight with great defense and was the best welterweight available at the time (floyd negotiations failed and shane/berto were scheduled to fight). Not sure what else pac could have done there.

Margarito, well people can say what they want about him he had a 20 pound advantage on pac that says something and shane, it's not the best fight but it's not the worst either. JMM is going to fight Eric Morales at 140 pounds and no one is criticizing the pound 4 pound #3 guy in the world for taking on a shot fighter. Anyone's resume can be nitpicked apart from Ali to Leonard to Hagler to Hopkins to Pacquiao. All the greats. The difference here is all of them fight and continue to prove their greatness while others don't. Floyd's opponent selection isn't as scrutinized as his lack of opponents and his extended vacations when the divisions get hot. The lack of names missing like Cotto, Margarito, and Pacquiao.

 

[MOREBASS]

Most of the guys you named were coming off of a bad loss or 1 fight removed from a really tough fight. Floyd gets a lot of crap for his opponent selection but Manny's doing the same thing. He fights in a more exciting style, no question but he's cherry picking opponents like he has been since fighting morales

This is a dumb argument.


Do you want to know why Pacquiao was facing guys coming off a loss at welterweight?


Because all of these guys (the top welterweights): Margarito, Cotto, Clottey, Mosley...were all facing each other. Of course someone is going to lose! Doesn't change the fact that these guys are still the best the division had to offer. Period.


Look at it this way. Manny has already faced and destroyed 3 of the best welterweights (yes I'm counting Margarito as a 147'er) and the other left are Mosley (scheduled to fight), Mayweather (legal issues, doesn't want the fight, and Berto (who has done nothing to show that he even deserves a shot)


I posted in another thread a response to this "Manny only fights fighters coming off a loss..." and the only time this is really true is: Against Clottey, who was coming off a close loss to Cotto.

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

Pacquiao was a 135 pound fighter when he fought Oscar, who was a 154 pound fighter. Oscar was a huge favorite. Everyone was saying Oscar was going to knock him out and that Pac was just too small. That's cherry picking?

Ricky Hatton was the lineal 140 pound champion, undefeated at that weight. That's cherry picking?

Miguel Cotto was a welterweight champion. Pacquiao had never fought someone that big and was moving up in weight once again. Everyone agrees that was a great win for Pacquiao and a tremendous performance on his part.

Joshua Clottey is a big welterweight with great defense and was the best welterweight available at the time (floyd negotiations failed and shane/berto were scheduled to fight). Not sure what else pac could have done there.

Margarito, well people can say what they want about him he had a 20 pound advantage on pac that says something and shane, it's not the best fight but it's not the worst either. JMM is going to fight Eric Morales at 140 pounds and no one is criticizing the pound 4 pound #3 guy in the world for taking on a shot fighter. Anyone's resume can be nitpicked apart from Ali to Leonard to Hagler to Hopkins to Pacquiao. All the greats. The difference here is all of them fight and continue to prove their greatness while others don't. Floyd's opponent selection isn't as scrutinized as his lack of opponents and his extended vacations when the divisions get hot. The lack of names missing like Cotto, Margarito, and Pacquiao.

I know all of those things, you literally wasted your time typing all that. Those were things leading in to the fight but look at how Roach talked about the opponents, look at his predictions. They knew he still had a big time edge against all the fighters your named, regardless of whether or not sports writers agreed.

Yes, it was cherry picking against hatton when he'd just completely outclassed DLH at 147 and the only decent fight Hatton had in a year and a half was against Malignaggi. He was almost knocked out by Juan Lazcano in the fight before that and knocked out by Floyd in the fight before that.

The Morales/Marquez fight is a b.s. fight along the lines of Hopkins/Jones II that shouldn't even happen. Morales is one of my favorite all time fighters but he should hang them up. If Morales wins, it's big for his legacy but if Marquez wins it means nothing. I hate those types of fights.

The fight with Cotto (though he isn't/wasn't the same fighter anymore) is fine. That was a really good challenge on paper but Pac hasn't beaten a fighter in his prime that I can think of. He fought some good and formerly great fighters but they were all past their prime except for Marquez in his first fight.

As usual. You're not going to change my mind and I'm sure I'm not going to change yours but I hate the double standard of it all.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

double standard of what? This thread is about a new show about freddie roach and you come in here with your player hater mentality talking about roach isn't that good of a trainer and pacquiao is a cherry picker. No one was even talking about anything else until you came in talking all this negative nonsense trying to bring guys down for no good reason.

It's like if there is something positive going on with Freddie Roach, just because he's associated with Pacquiao you got to hate just to defend Floyd Mayweather in some roundabout way lmao what type of shit is that?

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

This is a dumb argument.


Do you want to know why Pacquiao was facing guys coming off a loss at welterweight?


Because all of these guys (the top welterweights): Margarito, Cotto, Clottey, Mosley...were all facing each other. Of course someone is going to lose! Doesn't change the fact that these guys are still the best the division had to offer. Period.


Look at it this way. Manny has already faced and destroyed 3 of the best welterweights (yes I'm counting Margarito as a 147'er) and the other left are Mosley (scheduled to fight), Mayweather (legal issues, doesn't want the fight, and Berto (who has done nothing to show that he even deserves a shot)


I posted in another thread a response to this "Manny only fights fighters coming off a loss..." and the only time this is really true is: Against Clottey, who was coming off a close loss to Cotto.

It's not a dumb argument. Has Cotto been the same fighter since losing to Margarito? He used to destroy people against the ropes and he's had no pop on his punches when he has someone against the ropes. He just stands there most of the time now instead of punching if he has them against the ropes. How is that a dumb argument?

Hatton was beat the hell up by mayweather and almost knocked out by Lazcano. He was nearing the end of his road too. He beat Malignaggi because he could be ultra aggressive because paulie can't bust a grape.

The Clottey fight wasn't a bad loss or anything and he didn't take a lot of punishment, I actually wasn't including him.

DLH was a part time fighter, past his prime coming down in weight, we know this.

Morales was coming off of a loss to Barrera in yet another tough fight. Beat Pacquiao. Morales lost to Raheem, Pac fought him again anyways and knocked him out. Then he wanted to fight him again. I've never seen someone get so much credit for beating a fighter that retired after one more fight and going 1-5 in 6 fights. His only win was against Pac in that stretch.

Margarito had the daylights beaten out of him by Shane, looked like crap against Garcia yet Top Rank and 24/7 sold this as fight of the century. I actually went back and forth on this because of size alone and Margarito looked fast on 24/7 but he was molasses slow when they actually fought as usual. The wars and inactivity were brutal for Margs but they sold this fight on weight and reach.

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

double standard of what? This thread is about a new show about freddie roach and you come in here with your player hater mentality talking about roach isn't that good of a trainer and pacquiao is a cherry picker. No one was even talking about anything else until you came in talking all this negative nonsense trying to bring guys down for no good reason.

It's like if there is something positive going on with Freddie Roach, just because he's associated with Pacquiao you got to hate just to defend Floyd Mayweather in some roundabout way lmao what type of shit is that?

Double standard of how some fighters are scrutinized for not fighting the very best yet Pacquiao is considered the best ever by some clowns because he beat Margarito when he was at a 17 lb disadvantage.

Good for Freddie and his show but I think he's overrated. Simple as that. I can't speak my mind on that but people can talk about why he's so great? I'm not trying to slander anyone, you're taking it that way because you're fans of theirs. I said the credit belongs to Pacquiao more than Roach and people get butthurt about that. I could care less about Floyd, he was merely an example of someone who's achieved a lot but gets blame where Pac gets praise for doing the similar things

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Double standard of how some fighters are scrutinized for not fighting the very best yet Pacquiao is considered the best ever by some clowns because he beat Margarito when he was at a 17 lb disadvantage.

Other than Mayeather who Pacquiao is trying to fight, name the guys pacquiao should be fighting. Again, the options are pretty slim at 147 you got Andre Berto. Beyond that Pacquiao would need to drop back down to 140 pounds before you get to any talent.

Good for Freddie and his show but I think he's overrated. Simple as that. I can't speak my mind on that but people can talk about why he's so great? I'm not trying to slander anyone, you're taking it that way because you're fans of theirs. I said the credit belongs to Pacquiao more than Roach and people get butthurt about that. I could care less about Floyd, he was merely an example of someone who's achieved a lot but gets blame where Pac gets praise for doing the similar things

Speaking your mind is fine, speaking ignorance is another thing altogether and I'm going to call you out on it as I see fit.

I'm not a "fan" of Roach, I just think it's pretty obvious he's clearly one of the best trainers in the game.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Morales was coming off of a loss to Barrera in yet another tough fight. Beat Pacquiao. Morales lost to Raheem, Pac fought him again anyways and knocked him out. Then he wanted to fight him again. I've never seen someone get so much credit for beating a fighter that retired after one more fight and going 1-5 in 6 fights. His only win was against Pac in that stretch.

Nice revisionist history you got here.

Morales BEAT Pacquiao.

They agreed to rematch, it was a contractual agreement.

Raheem beat Morales. Pacquiao & Morales fight in a rematch (it was an agreement not to mention pacquiao wants to avenge his loss).

Meanwhile, Raheem loses to Acelino Freitas.

Pacquiao & Morales have a rubber match. It's the most money for the both of them, plus it evens the score (they both won one fight each).

This would be a similar scenario to what happened with Chad Dawson/Pascal/Bernard Hopkins.

Pascal beat Dawson (but Dawson had a contractual rematch clause, which allowed Pascal to fight someone else first). Pascal fights Hopkins. Lets say Hopkins got the decision. Dawson fights Pascal. Would Dawson get heat for fighting Pascal even though he just lost to Hopkins? Absolutely not. He for one, lost to Pascal the first time, and two, it was an agreement to rematch from the start. It was the same scenario for Pacquiao/Morales.

Everyone else you just nitpicked apart. Again, you can do this to anyones resume and try to make everyone negative. Hatton looked bad against so and so. While I could say Hatton was undefeated at 140, was the lineal champion, etc etc etc.

 

[MOREBASS]

Again, Chris...the people you named were all fighting each other. So, is your logic being...that since they lost, he should move on to fight a lesser opponent?


He fought the best people in the division, period.


Name more worthy opponents at 147 than:

Cotto, Clottey, Margarito, and Mosley

These guys were all fighting each other, and of course, there's a loser in every fight.

Cotto: Clottey, Margarito, Mosley, Pacquiao
Clottey: Margarito, Cotto, Pacquiao
Margarito: Clottey, Cotto, Mosley, Pacquiao
Pacquiao: Clottey, Cotto, Margarito, Mosley next
Mayweather: Mosley

(Besides Mayweather, because obviously they've been trying to get a fight with him to no avail...)

 

[KrazeeRDM]

is it manny's fault that mayweather is ducking him? i mean thats the fight HE wants and mayweather is too scared to let it happen. i bet everything else doesnt even matter for pac so he just takes what bob wants. i'm not huge into this whole ordeal but even i can see who manny wants to fight and it cant happen so he just takes who ever wants to get it.

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

Other than Mayeather who Pacquiao is trying to fight, name the guys pacquiao should be fighting. Again, the options are pretty slim at 147 you got Andre Berto. Beyond that Pacquiao would need to drop back down to 140 pounds before you get to any talent.



Speaking your mind is fine, speaking ignorance is another thing altogether and I'm going to call you out on it as I see fit.

I'm not a "fan" of Roach, I just think it's pretty obvious he's clearly one of the best trainers in the game.

Here's the issue at hand. Pac could make 140 easily and fight better fights than taking on the worn out Mosley, or fighting Clottey, or fighting Margarito. I was playing the devil's advocate role with y'all, there is 2 sides to every story and most careers can be nit picked all day, that's nothing new.

Why are we not demanding more out of the best fighter in the world though? I don't think most fighters have a chance against him at 140 or 147 but I'd at least like to find out. He's not taking the toughest challenges out there, straight up. There's a case to be made for every fight as to why he may take it. Shane is a Hall of Famer, great. But does ANYONE care about this fight?

I understand the money side of the game. There's nothing wrong with the move up in weight to fight DLH. It was the biggest payday of his career and most people thought he'd lose. With Hatton, another huge payday. Same for Cotto. That's what most of his career has been about in the last couple years though. He proved he could pull in great money against Clottey and Margarito, why not fight Berto? He has a choice. Arum presents him offers but ultimately, he decides who to fight.

As far as Roach, he's one of the best in the game. There's really only a handful of elite trainers in the game as it is but I definitely don't think he's THE best and I do believe other trainers could've brought Pacquiao to these lofty heights given as much time as Roach has had to train him. Pacquiao is a once in a lifetime fighter and that's 80% of it. Any good trainer should be able to harness that other 20%

 

[2-0-Sixx]

Here's the issue at hand. Pac could make 140 easily and fight better fights than taking on the worn out Mosley, or fighting Clottey, or fighting Margarito. I was playing the devil's advocate role with y'all, there is 2 sides to every story and most careers can be nit picked all day, that's nothing new.

Why are we not demanding more out of the best fighter in the world though? I don't think most fighters have a chance against him at 140 or 147 but I'd at least like to find out. He's not taking the toughest challenges out there, straight up. There's a case to be made for every fight as to why he may take it. Shane is a Hall of Famer, great. But does ANYONE care about this fight?

140 is talented but who has a name right now other than amir khan? how would that fight work out? Freddie Roach trains both of them at the same time?

I think once a winner emerges from Bradley/Alexander there will be some legitimate hype around that person and should be brought into consideration with Pac.

What's interesting is I think bob arum likes the idea of a pac-bradley fight. Bradley is probably the only guy I hear arum consistently talk positive about and has nothing but good things to say about. If bradley has a good year this fight probably has a better shot than people realize.

I understand the money side of the game. There's nothing wrong with the move up in weight to fight DLH. It was the biggest payday of his career and most people thought he'd lose. With Hatton, another huge payday. Same for Cotto. That's what most of his career has been about in the last couple years though. He proved he could pull in great money against Clottey and Margarito, why not fight Berto? He has a choice. Arum presents him offers but ultimately, he decides who to fight.

It's about money and fighting someone with a name clearly. Berto is an idiot, or his manager al haymon is an idiot, for having him fight bums and C level fighters for the past 4 years and sells like 200 tickets to his fights. I mean we're arguing over who is the best out of the worst - mosley, berto, or marquez. Like KrazeeRDM said, this is the result of mayweather being MIA.

As far as Roach, he's one of the best in the game. There's really only a handful of elite trainers in the game as it is but I definitely don't think he's THE best and I do believe other trainers could've brought Pacquiao to these lofty heights given as much time as Roach has had to train him. Pacquiao is a once in a lifetime fighter and that's 80% of it. Any good trainer should be able to harness that other 20%

who's the best trainer in the game right now out of curiosity?

 

[CHRISHOGGALYPSE]

It's totally about money but I don't think he should be considered "fighter of the year" with the fights he had even though he'll probably win it by some boxing media. Al Haymon is either brilliant, or a total idiot. He's guided Mayweather to a grip and Berto was being paid VERY, VERY well to fight c level fighters. I guess you can't fault him anymore than you can fault Pacquiao for opponent selection. Berto is making his money from HBO guarantees, not the live gate.

As far as trainers, I don't know who I think the absolute best. I think that would probably have to go to Steward to me at the moment. I honestly think Teddy Atlas might be the most capable trainer out there and I can't wait to see how his work with Povetkin pays off.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

It's totally about money but I don't think he should be considered "fighter of the year" with the fights he had even though he'll probably win it by some boxing media. Al Haymon is either brilliant, or a total idiot. He's guided Mayweather to a grip and Berto was being paid VERY, VERY well to fight c level fighters. I guess you can't fault him anymore than you can fault Pacquiao for opponent selection. Berto is making his money from HBO guarantees, not the live gate.

Haymon get's people paid but as for their careers, the last couple of his years his fighters haven't done so well besides floyd of course but floyd could be managed by anyone and get bank.

What I mean by berto is yeah, he's getting over paid like crazy from HBO thanks to Haymon, so good hustle on their part, but what has it done for berto's career up to this point? No one knows who he is and he was the prospect of the year in 2006, an Olympic medalist and one of the most promising guys in boxing from that class. And who has he fought? Collazo? He should have big names on his resume by now is what I'm saying.

So I think being overpaid and fighting bums hurts his career in the long run.

As far as trainers, I don't know who I think the absolute best. I think that would probably have to go to Steward to me at the moment. I honestly think Teddy Atlas might be the most capable trainer out there and I can't wait to see how his work with Povetkin pays off.

Both these guys are part time trainers though. Atlas trains Povetkin and that is it. Steward trains a couple guys Klitschko obviously and Cotto now, andy lee I think.

Atlas I don't think ever was a top trainer though. Even back in his day the best work he did was with Michael Moorer but it was short lived and he always has some nasty fall out with his fighters everyone who has ever worked with him splits in some negative way I don't think that reflects well on him as a trainer.

There are other guys that aren't as popular that are much better like kevin cunningham, kenny adams, nazim, ronnie shields, etc