Faith is Healthy?

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May 13, 2002
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www.socialistworld.net
#21
If you think science is the answer that is pretty sad. science has its place but science has also added a lot of false ideas to the world.
I don't really care, but this statement is just stupid. Science is simply the study of something. Science hasn't added anything that is false, man has (which is eventually corrected through science).


although not as full of bullshit as christianity, science's is full of contradictions. as you say "Believing in something for which there is no proof of existence is a big reason this world is fucked up", science pushes ideas that have no "proof" in certain instances while denying other things that have no "proof" in instances that dont fit the paradigm.
Another stupid statement. Science is based on facts, truths, observations, experiment, etc. There has to be evidence or it's not related to science.

I'm not going to even try with the rest.
 
Apr 29, 2006
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#25
It definitely seems to me that science does speak down on these cultures and dismisses their ideas as superstition. I'm not really sure how science can cover these ideas as you say, maybe you could explain a little more. These practices go beyond what science can cover because they dont provide results that are visual. I dont really care about what science does or doesnt do, all i know is that it breaks nature down into little pieces in an attempt to study it in a mechanical manner, thus losing the true connection. I just dont really understand how you can say that if everyone just bowed down to science, everything would be solved. I believe a lot would be lost.
 
Apr 29, 2006
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#26
^ I received a B.s. in cultural anthropology last year, and my thesis and emphasis was in the Mayan and Shaman societies of south america. I can name you every 'known' shaman society that is currently living and where to find them... so I dont think im the one you want to tell about how Magic system people's work, haha.
Thats tight, you should hit me with you paper, thatd be interesting. I had the chance to stay in peru and bolivia for a few months and have the experiences first hand with ayahuasca and san pedro. It was pretty amazing to be able to see a shaman up close and personal, quite eye opening. A book you might find interesting is "The Lost Language of Plants" by Stephen Buhner. A mix of science and more traditional ideas.
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#28
The problem is, science will not and can not verify phenomenon that can't be studied objectively. So regardless of the amount of subjective anecdotal "evidence", because a phenomenon can't be studied objectively, it doesn't exist. We are trying to examine shamanistic experience within the framework of scientific method, which is a mistake because it simply cannot be measured at all. This does not mean there isn't any substance, validity or value to these experiences.
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
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#29
I just dont really understand how you can say that if everyone just bowed down to science, everything would be solved. I believe a lot would be lost.
the greatest minds of mankind have pondered over what is the best way to reach the objective truth for millenia

and they have come to the conclusion that methodological naturalism (translated = science) is the way

since we value, or at least should value, truth more than anything, everything has to "bow down" to methodological naturalism
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#30
The problem is, science will not and can not verify phenomenon that can't be studied objectively. So regardless of the amount of subjective anecdotal "evidence", because a phenomenon can't be studied objectively, it doesn't exist. We are trying to examine shamanistic experience within the framework of scientific method, which is a mistake because it simply cannot be measured at all. This does not mean there isn't any substance, validity or value to these experiences.
Wrong

You say that shamanistic experiences "can't be studied scientifically" but you can not back that up. Has anybody really studied it scientifically? Do we fully understand how the brain functions on the cellular and molecular level? Do we know what plants shamans use and what they contain?

The answer to all these is no, and you need all of them to be able to explain shamanistic experiences scientifically. So the case is that we do not have the tools and the knowledge yet, not that it is absolutely impossible to study these phenomena
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#31
It is impossible to study the phenomena because it is impossible to study the results of these chemicals objectively. What science will eventually be able to do is isolate the active ingredients in these plants, and determine exactly how they change our brain chemistry. However, this is not an explanation of the experience itself, merely an explanation for the cause of the experience.
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#32
from Near-Death Experiences, Shamanism, and the Scientific Method

by J. Timothy Green, Ph.D.
This article was originally published in the IANDS "Journal of Near Death Studies" vol.16 #3 Spring 1998.




As in the case of NDEs, it is difficult to verify that the experiences reported actually occurred. In other words, while remaining in Ordinary State Consciousness, it is impossible for a researcher to prove scientifically that someone has left their physical body, traveled down a tunnel, entered into a light, met and conversed with dead friends and relatives, and so on. The experience itself is subjective and, like all other subjective phenomena, is impervious to direct scientific study.

A similar situation exists in trying to deal with shamanic journeys from an empirical standpoint. Unless the researcher is able to enter into Shamanic State Consciousness, and travel with the practitioner into these realms, it is impossible to verify that the shaman did, in fact, do so. However, from a purely clinical perspective, there is no need to verify the subjective aspect of the shamanic intervention. In order to employ shamanic techniques ethically, we need prove only that the treatment was effective in alleviating the presenting problem, that it was other than placebo and that it is safe. The underlying theory about why shamanic techniques are effective can remain theoretical indefinitely.

Similar situations occur quite often in modern medicine as well as other areas of science. To take just one example, no one has been able to identify which pharmacological action of some of the new generation of antidepressant medications is the active mechanism in alleviating depression. In other words, what happens once the person takes the medication, how it works within the brain to alleviate depressive symptoms is, at this point in time, theoretical. All we are able to do is hypothesize about may be happening inside the brain that results in symptom relief. Despite this, we are able to prove these medications are effective in treating depression using the most rigorous scientific methods, and because of this, we employ them, assuming that further research will someday answer the question of why they work. What may be a better example comes from physics. When Einstein first proposed his theory of relativity, it was just that--a theory. But like all good theories, Einstein’s generated a number of testable hypotheses and each time researchers were able to put his ideas to the test, the results supported Einstein’s insights. Over a period of time, what had been scientific theory became accepted scientific fact.

In the case of shamanic interventions, many Western practitioners have now begun to use these methods, some with great success. And they have also set forth a theory, the same theory that underlies NDEs, that some individuals are able to enter into a spiritual realm, journey to different locations, interact with spiritual beings who exist in those locals, and bring back information that is helpful in alleviating human suffering. And although they cannot at this time prove their theory, the effects of their interventions are objective, empirical facts that are well within the realm of the most rigorous of scientific study. Although these studies have yet to be done, if shamanic techniques can be shown to be effective, they should be employed along with biological and psychological treatments. In fact, to withhold or refuse to utilize a therapeutic modality, simply because one holds a worldview which is inconsistent with the theory it is based on, is not only unscientific, it is clearly unethical, the ethical principle being the best interest of the patient.
.........................................................
All of science attempts to be empirical. Yet, the entire scientific enterprise rests on a number of metaphysical assumptions, untestable hypotheses therefore--in short beliefs. And probably the most deeply ingrained assumption made by modern science is that physical reality is the only reality. Because of this, whenever materialistic scientists are faced with phenomena which do not fit into their own belief systems, they quickly attempt to interpret them.

It is not less scientific, or less logical, to suggest or entertain the hypothesis that physical reality is not the only reality and that even a minor alteration in consciousness can put someone in contact with a different reality. And, given the overwhelming evidence in support of the ecstatic experiences, this hypothesis fits the known facts.

As Thomas Kuhn wrote in the Structure of Scientific Revolutions, “In much the same way, scientific revolutions are inaugurated by a growing sense, again often restricted to a narrow subdivision of the scientific community, that an existing paradigm has ceased to function adequately in the exploration of an aspect of nature to which the paradigm itself had previously led the way.” (Kuhn, 1962, p. 92)
Conclusion

A profound shift in paradigm is already well underway, and the field of near-death studies can pride itself for having played a major role in this shift. After more than 20 years of research into NDEs, investigators have thoroughly documented the existence of this phenomenon. An entire generation has grown up hearing and reading about these accounts, which are now taken for granted. We now find ourselves in a position to enter a new phase, evolving from pure science, to the development of a therapeutic modality, one based on spiritual principles, that will stand side by side with biological and psychological treatments. If we recognize the overlap between NDEs and shamanism, and realize that much of the work has already been done by shamans who have kept these sacred techniques alive, we will have an excellent starting point. This knowledge has been brought back to Western culture and is now available to anyone who chooses to walk the path of the shaman. NDEers have, in fact, already begun to tread this time path and, for those who choose to pursue it, formalized training in shamanism may help them realize the fullest potential of their experience.
**************************************************
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
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#33
It is impossible to study the phenomena because it is impossible to study the results of these chemicals objectively. What science will eventually be able to do is isolate the active ingredients in these plants, and determine exactly how they change our brain chemistry. However, this is not an explanation of the experience itself, merely an explanation for the cause of the experience.
"takes a deep breath"

you can entirely explain the experience knowing the cause of it and the pattern of neuronal activity involved

all of this can be done by modern neuroscience if we have the necessary information
 
Sep 25, 2005
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#35
*shakes head in disbelief, attempts to vomit all over self, after eating Jack In The Box, and stroking chin in a scientific manner.*
 
Mar 4, 2007
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#36
man you shouldn't eat jack in crack^...that shit is nastier than fuck.
just hit up your local taqueria and get a bean and cheese burrito or some s hit, much healthier, and just as cheap, and million times tastier.
 
Mar 4, 2007
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#38
yeah i guess i'd like to give this example,
like i have a friend that feels like he's gonna be dead within 10 years, andhe proclaims this without hesitation.
he has no problem with it, or atleast he portrays it as such.
well he's had a lot of stress problems, and just his health has been goin down the poopy hole, and quickly...he's had this BAD cough for weeks, headaches, insomnia, lots of physical ailments..

but yeah, so i point out ot him that he's silly for sayin that he'll be dead in 10 years cause he's got this one girl that cares so much about him, and i told him"you guys would be a perfect married couple" he's like "yeah i know" haha
well couple days later, he calls me in such a good mood, and sayin that i made him think about shit, he said he's been uncontrollabley happy, and like he's been happy since.
its been weeks now, but he's still so healthy n happy, just caus ehe got the thought of having something to live for,
ya see, it ain't god or jesus, or payment for his good deeds, or bad deeds, he feels like his life would mean something if he's with a woman he loves(which he loves her deeply, stupid why he hasn't thought about this before) and have kids that he can raise right, (cause he didn't have a stable home growin up), and that makes his health make a turn around, and his WHOLE entire attitude about everything in his life, family, school, work, everythiing is different for himnow.
all because he thinks differently.

i would say finding meaning in your life is healthiest thing for ya, soul, and mind.

for me, its helpin kids out where i didn't have help, and that was emotional support from people i could look up to(teachers, adults of that sort)....i wanna be a coo ass teacher that makes kids think deeper than whats ever been expected of them before in their life.
=D