Does Israel Really Have a Right to Exist?

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Apr 25, 2002
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Does Israel Really Have a Right to Exist?
by Susan Abulhawa / June 15th, 2009
http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/06/does-israel-really-have-a-right-to-exist/


Following Netanyahu’s much anticipated policy speech, politicians and journalists, like mindless automatons, have set about repeating Israel’s tired mantra that Palestinians should recognize Israel’s right to exist. Never mind the fact that the PLO and Palestine Authority have obliged this ludicrous call, not once, but four times. And never mind that Israel has always denied Palestine’s right to exist, not only as a nation, but as individuals seeking a dignified life in our own homeland.


Does anyone find it interesting that Israel is the only country on the planet going around with this incessant insistence that everyone recognize her right to exist? Given that we Palestinians are the ones who have been dispossessed, occupied, and oppressed, one might expect that we should be the ones making such a demand. But t hat isn’t the case. Why? Because our right to exist as a nation is self-evident. We are the natives of that land! We know we have that right. The world knows it. That’s why Palestine doesn’t need Israel or any other country to recognize her right to exist. We are the rightful heirs to that land and this can be verified legally, historically, culturally, and even genetically. And as such, the only true legitimacy Israel will ever have must come from us abdicating our inheritance, our history, and our culture to Israel. That’s why Israel insists we declare she had a right to take everything we ever had — from home and property, cemeteries, churches and mosques, to culture and history and hope.

Israel is a country that was founded by Europeans who came to Palestine, formed terrorist gangs who set about a systematic ethnic cleansing of the native Palestinians from their homes on 78% of Historic Palestine in 1948. Those Palestinians and their descendants still languish in refugee camps. Israel attempted a similar scenario in 1967 when they conquered the remainder of Palestine, but Palestinians then couldn’t be dislodged from their homes as easily. This remains true, despite 40 years of Israel’s violent and oppressive military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Despite home demolitions, land confiscations, rapacious building of Jewish-only colonies, endless checkpoints, targeted assassinations, bombings of schools, hospitals, municipal buildings and malls, closures and denials; despite the massive human rights abuses, the imprisonment and torture of men women and children alike, the separation of families, the daily humiliations; despite the massive killings — Palestinians remain. We still resist. We still live, love, and have babies. As much as we can, we rebuild what Israel destroys. Such are rights!

Rights are inherent and inherently just, like the right to live with dignity and to be masters of one’s own fate. It is a human right not be persecuted and oppressed because you happen to belong to one religion and not another.

That Israelis simply take property belonging to Palestinians is not a right. That is theft. That Israel cut off the movement of food, medicine and other basic goods to the Gaza strip, causing massive malnutrition, economic collapse and misery because Palestinians elected particular leaders is not a right. That is an affront to humanity. That Israel rain death from the skies on an already battered and starved Gaza, murdering over 3000 human beings and maiming thousands more in a single month is not a right. It’s a war crime. That Israel has employed every imperialistic tactic to subjugate, humiliate, break, and expel an entire nation of principally unarmed civilians because of their religion is not a right. It is a moral obscenity. That every Jew from Europe, Africa, Asia, the Americas, and Australia be entitled to dual citizenship, one in their native country and one in Israel, while the rightful heirs to the land linger as refugees without citizenship anywhere is not a right. It is an outrage.

I’m sure my words will be twisted in some way to imply that I’m advocating pushing Israelis “into the sea” or some other asinine claim. So let me be explicit: We all have the right to exist, to live, to be masters of our own destiny. We all have the right not to be oppressed by others. Such rights are inherent to every individual living in that land: Jew, Muslim, or Christian. But Israelis do not have the right to create particular religious demographics by causing the demise of the natives. To be a Jewish [or Muslim or Christian] state, where privilege is accorded to those belonging to a particular religion at the expense of those who do not is not a right.

A nation that discriminates against and oppresses those who do not belong to a particular religious, racial, or ethnic group is not a light onto nations. It is a blight. And to recognize such racism as a human or national right goes against every tenet of international law. It defies the basic sense that the worth of a human being should not be measured by their religion, any more than it should be measured by the color of their skin or the language they speak.
 
Feb 15, 2006
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#3
no! and i think there never will be a 2 state solution.the only thing i think can solve this problem is if Israel would cease to exist and became new state one with out a aparthiad regime that would save alot of people alot off grief.
 
May 27, 2009
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#5
Fuck yes. Historically they've got more right to be there than non-Indians have in America. How can anyone possibly say this is "Palestinian" land? That shit was NEVER run by the Palestinians. The Jews "stole" the land from the fucking English.

The Jews were all about sharing the land, the Arabs were all about being greedy and having everything. The Arabs declared war, the Arabs lost. Move the fuck on with your lives. Arabs, you lost. Get over it. Every time you try to attack you lose more land.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#9
Fuck yes. Historically they've got more right to be there than non-Indians have in America.
What about non-native americans that were forced to come here?

How can anyone possibly say this is "Palestinian" land? That shit was NEVER run by the Palestinians.
Before that question can be addressed one must first identify what a "Palestinian" is and who the "Palestinians" are. Once this has been done, one must address the history of the lands and the various borders of "Palastine."

So, do you have the answers to the above questions?

The Jews "stole" the land from the fucking English.
No, the so-called jews did not steal the land from the fucking English. The Balfour Declaration proves this and so does history as Old Yishuv lived in the land before the formation of the Israeli state in the 40's.

The Jews were all about sharing the land
Well, this is up for debate.

the Arabs were all about being greedy and having everything.
Well, this is up for debate.

The Arabs declared war, the Arabs lost.
It was much more complicated than that.

Move the fuck on with your lives. Arabs, you lost. Get over it. Every time you try to attack you lose more land.
It is much more complicated than that.
 
Apr 25, 2002
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One problem I see with the article is it is written for the past. The author never acknowledges Israel's right to exist. Regardless of what happened before if the Palestinians do not acknowledge the Israeli's right to exist we have status quo forever and ever.
 
May 27, 2009
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#12
No, the so-called jews did not steal the land from the fucking English. The Balfour Declaration proves this and so does history as Old Yishuv lived in the land before the formation of the Israeli state in the 40's.
That's correct. I should have said "if the land is stolen, it was stolen from the English not the Arabs."

The English left, the Jews declared independence, the Arabs declared war.

Also, if ColdBlooded would care to read up on the Balfour Declaration and Yishuv, it kind of paints a different picture than the one presented in the article he posted:
Israel is a country that was founded by Europeans who came to Palestine, formed terrorist gangs who set about a systematic ethnic cleansing of the native Palestinians from their homes on 78% of Historic Palestine in 1948.
Yes there was higher Jewish immigration due to displaced Jews. But there was a substantial Jewish population already living in Israel. Jews weren't just getting off boats and walking into Arab neighborhoods and kicking out occupants.

The author needs to understand one key thing. The Arabs declared war not the Jews.

As for the other questions/statements that you posted HERESY, I'll try to keep this brief:
I mentioned native-Americans only as an illustration of who has "rights" to land occupied by others. We can discuss or debate the issue on a different thread. I'm not sure how much we'd disagree.
By "Palestinians" I'm referring to the ancestors of the people claiming their shit was stolen.
Pretty much all of it is up for debate, and all of it is definitely more complicated than how I or anyone else can attempt to describe it.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#13
The English left, the Jews declared independence, the Arabs declared war.
It was not a simple three point process, and the trouble with all of this goes back to who the "jews" actually are and if the people not living in the land prior to the the establishment of Israel as a nation have a connection to the land.

Also, if ColdBlooded would care to read up on the Balfour Declaration and Yishuv, it kind of paints a different picture than the one presented in the article he posted:
Coldblooded does not have to read up on the Balfour Declaration or Yishuv as he simply posted the article, and in this thread, has yet to give an opinion. However, you should educate yourself on both as they tend to actually validate certain arguments presented in the article.

Yes there was higher Jewish immigration due to displaced Jews. But there was a substantial Jewish population already living in Israel. Jews weren't just getting off boats and walking into Arab neighborhoods and kicking out occupants.
First of all, what is this "substantial number" you speak of? In regards to Jews getting off boats, walking into Arab neighborhoods and kicking them out, you have to look at the time periods the author was referencing. Is the author talking about the late 1800’s, the early 1920’s or the establishment of Israel in the 40’s?

The author needs to understand one key thing. The Arabs declared war not the Jews.
And you need to understand WHY they declared war.

I mentioned native-Americans only as an illustration of who has "rights" to land occupied by others. We can discuss or debate the issue on a different thread. I'm not sure how much we'd disagree.
I'm asking you a question based on your words. You mentioned a certain group of people in hopes of supporting your premise, but now it seems as if you don't want to go down that road. Fine, we don't, but in the future you should probably refrain from repeating the same mistake.

By "Palestinians" I'm referring to the ancestors of the people claiming their shit was stolen.
So who are these people? Are they Caananites? Philistines? Arabs? Hebrews?
 
Apr 25, 2002
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Coldblooded does not have to read up on the Balfour Declaration or Yishuv as he simply posted the article, and in this thread, has yet to give an opinion. However, you should educate yourself on both as they tend to actually validate certain arguments presented in the article.
:dead:
 
May 27, 2009
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me said:
The English left, the Jews declared independence, the Arabs declared war.
you said:
It was not a simple three point process, and the trouble with all of this goes back to who the "jews" actually are and if the people not living in the land prior to the the establishment of Israel as a nation have a connection to the land.
How is it not that simple? You want to derail the topic with semantics, go for it. "Jews" are people who follow Judaism.

If you make a new country what difference does it make if your immigrants have or don't have a connection to that land? By the way "Jews" do have a connection, ever heard of King David? Ever wonder where he ruled?
you said:
Coldblooded does not have to read up on the Balfour Declaration or Yishuv as he simply posted the article, and in this thread, has yet to give an opinion. However, you should educate yourself on both as they tend to actually validate certain arguments presented in the article.
Please quote those "certain arguments".

Coldblooded gave his opinion by copy-and-pasting an obviously biased article with the title of "Does Israel Really Have a Right to Exist?" it implies a stance on a topic. Feel free to focus on specific words and pick apart sentences when you don't actually have an argument to present. Semantics is a good tactic for debate when your argument is weak.
you said:
First of all, what is this "substantial number" you speak of?
The "substantial number" in my book is more than a handful. If you want specifics how bout more than 1 in 100. Here's a breakdown of the (possibly) actual numbers of types of people in place at the time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#Land_ownership_by_district
you said:
In regards to Jews getting off boats, walking into Arab neighborhoods and kicking them out, you have to look at the time periods the author was referencing. Is the author talking about the late 1800’s, the early 1920’s or the establishment of Israel in the 40’s?
The author finished her sentence with
The Author said:
... cleansing of the native Palestinians from their homes on 78% of Historic Palestine in 1948.
Read into things all you like, I see it as 1948.
me said:
The author needs to understand one key thing. The Arabs declared war not the Jews.
you said:
And you need to understand WHY they declared war.
Why do I need to understand that? If someone tries to rob me and I woop their ass, do I really need to know WHY they tried to rob me? Nope, they just need to know that they will get their ass wooped every time they try it.
me said:
I mentioned native-Americans only as an illustration of who has "rights" to land occupied by others. We can discuss or debate the issue on a different thread. I'm not sure how much we'd disagree.
you said:
I'm asking you a question based on your words. You mentioned a certain group of people in hopes of supporting your premise, but now it seems as if you don't want to go down that road. Fine, we don't, but in the future you should probably refrain from repeating the same mistake.
There's no mistake. It's called an "Analogy". Instead of using examples from the topic that each of us has already come to conclusions on, I'm using an unrelated subject as a comparison. This is a way to pull the reader away from their diehard beliefs and try to look at it in a different light. If you really want to derail the topic and discuss "Who is the rightful owner of America" start up a new topic and we'll discuss. You're trying to distract instead of addressing the topic at hand. This method is the second to last indicator that you've lost a debate. The last indicator is correcting grammar and spelling.
me said:
By "Palestinians" I'm referring to the ancestors of the people claiming their shit was stolen.
you said:
So who are these people? Are they Caananites? Philistines? Arabs? Hebrews?
None or all of the above. I already answered this. "The people claiming their shit was stolen". Does it really matter what their name is or are you just trying to distract again in an effort to avoid the actual topic?

-edit-
Good shit on making me work after a night at the clubs.