Does Communism Work After All?
- Thread starter Mike Manson
- Start date
Ill make this simple and some of you will appreciate it, and some of you will bitch about the simplicity and get hung up on definitions to be sure. This is, plus my own flavour, what our teacher spit to us back in high school. Its been observed many times throughout history…
Communism leads to capitalism (democracy). This is because people are inevitably exposed to outside influences and eventually desire material wealth and status. They think that fair distribution of wealth is in fact unfair because they work harder than neighbors who reap the same benefits. They seek meritocracy.
Capitalism (democracy) leads to dictatorship. This is because groups in power with money realize they can control populations based on their desires for material wealth. By making promises of opportunity, and examples of rags to riches, the masses are entranced and obsessed with the idea that “any one can make it”. While they toil to achieve material wealth, their rights and laws are slowly changed around them…like boiling a frog by slowly turning up the heat.
Dictatorship leads to communism. This is because the people eventually find less satisfaction in materials goods and realize they are being played like pawns by the ruling class. They seek equality once the distribution of wealth becomes too one-sided. They grow tired of the discrepancies believe that revolution towards communism, or some derivative of it, is the only way back to fairness and justice.
And you know what communism leads to….
The only constant is change. Have a nice day.
Communism leads to capitalism (democracy). This is because people are inevitably exposed to outside influences and eventually desire material wealth and status. They think that fair distribution of wealth is in fact unfair because they work harder than neighbors who reap the same benefits. They seek meritocracy.
Capitalism (democracy) leads to dictatorship. This is because groups in power with money realize they can control populations based on their desires for material wealth. By making promises of opportunity, and examples of rags to riches, the masses are entranced and obsessed with the idea that “any one can make it”. While they toil to achieve material wealth, their rights and laws are slowly changed around them…like boiling a frog by slowly turning up the heat.
Dictatorship leads to communism. This is because the people eventually find less satisfaction in materials goods and realize they are being played like pawns by the ruling class. They seek equality once the distribution of wealth becomes too one-sided. They grow tired of the discrepancies believe that revolution towards communism, or some derivative of it, is the only way back to fairness and justice.
And you know what communism leads to….
The only constant is change. Have a nice day.
How am I going to run? SO you want to bicker back and forth like a bitch ass nerd? He proved me wrong and so what, you live and your learn. Like I said, I'm going to take a biology class and a sociology class next semester. You bring back people's flaws even though one has already admitted to it, for no apparent reason. You look for internet beef, with me, jesse, and whom ever you feel the need to get at. You're lame, Spider man, WTF would I need to answer, do you get aroused seeing people reply to you nerd? Always starting shit when it's not necessary, just like you did with Jesse in the Squid thread, and with me in here. It's amazing, how nerds enjoy a never ending internet bickering.
NERD ALERT!!! (sorry, but several people have made this reference about you)
actually this particular high school teacher had his phd, along with the majority of my high school teachers. Quite a different envionment from your community college teaching assistants assigning you book work.
oh wait, where is your argument, or contribution, or anything resembling thought? thanks.
actually this particular high school teacher had his phd, along with the majority of my high school teachers. Quite a different envionment from your community college teaching assistants assigning you book work.
oh wait, where is your argument, or contribution, or anything resembling thought? thanks.
NHOJ, he's one of those people, that look for debate for no apparent reason. This is called Attention whoristist or Nerdist Flexicus. You spell one word with one letter wrong, IT'S ON! You find a Shark fossil, and call it a GREAT WHITE tooth, he'll say, actually it's a Megladon. Call a White Leopard a Snow leopard, "NO it's called a Neo felis nebulosa"!!!
Communism is a democracy or it's not communism at all.
Basically that killed your teachers entire point.
No, these things are taught to us under certain societies, i.e capitalist societies. This is another common argument we are taught in first grade: Human Nature goes against Communism. Humans by nature are greedy, materialistic, evil, etc.
Conditions determine consciousness. In other words, our environment determines our mentality. You have to remember that humans got where we are today not by crushing and killing each other, it was because of communication and working together. Only by cooperation have we been able to hunt successfully, build shelters, huge cities, and truly advance.
Under capitalism, the ruling class does everything they can to effect the way we think. Through media, education, religion, etc. we are raised with values of a capitalist system, which is that 'dog eat dog', 'every man for himself,' "I want to be rich" mentality. This isn't human nature, this is something we have been conditioned to think. Also referred to as "a false consciousness."
This kind of mentality doesn't benefit the common man...only the very rich. It's amazing how some people think this is fair, we produce the wealth socially, but the profit goes into private hands.
This mentality would slowly go away under socialist and communist societies. Since conditions determine consciousness, new generations would see the world entirely different. When a baby is born, they do not know about violence, sexual harassment, being materialistic, etc., they only learn about these things as they are passed down to them by society.
You have to remember that Human nature, like all things, in a constant state of change too.
Basically that killed your teachers entire point.
No, these things are taught to us under certain societies, i.e capitalist societies. This is another common argument we are taught in first grade: Human Nature goes against Communism. Humans by nature are greedy, materialistic, evil, etc.
Conditions determine consciousness. In other words, our environment determines our mentality. You have to remember that humans got where we are today not by crushing and killing each other, it was because of communication and working together. Only by cooperation have we been able to hunt successfully, build shelters, huge cities, and truly advance.
Under capitalism, the ruling class does everything they can to effect the way we think. Through media, education, religion, etc. we are raised with values of a capitalist system, which is that 'dog eat dog', 'every man for himself,' "I want to be rich" mentality. This isn't human nature, this is something we have been conditioned to think. Also referred to as "a false consciousness."
This kind of mentality doesn't benefit the common man...only the very rich. It's amazing how some people think this is fair, we produce the wealth socially, but the profit goes into private hands.
This mentality would slowly go away under socialist and communist societies. Since conditions determine consciousness, new generations would see the world entirely different. When a baby is born, they do not know about violence, sexual harassment, being materialistic, etc., they only learn about these things as they are passed down to them by society.
You have to remember that Human nature, like all things, in a constant state of change too.
I would like to add some more meat to my last post regarding the idea that greed and selfishness are human nature...
Self-interest is human nature. Self-interested means that a person acts in accordance with his or her own interests. Being selfish and greedy suggests that a person is self-interested to the detriment of others. A selfish and greedy person would never form alliances to get what he needs, but a self-interested person does.
Under a socialist or communist society, workers will form a class consciousness by understanding where their true self-interest lay. The ruling class in a Capitalist society on the other hand have also have a self-interest, in this case a class interest in controlling the class consciousness of the workers - shoring up the false consciousness of the workers that their self-interest lay with the promotion of the class system (remember the old slogan that "what's good for GM is good for America" - nationalism is a good tool for propping up false consciousness as is religion).
Self-interest is human nature. Self-interested means that a person acts in accordance with his or her own interests. Being selfish and greedy suggests that a person is self-interested to the detriment of others. A selfish and greedy person would never form alliances to get what he needs, but a self-interested person does.
Under a socialist or communist society, workers will form a class consciousness by understanding where their true self-interest lay. The ruling class in a Capitalist society on the other hand have also have a self-interest, in this case a class interest in controlling the class consciousness of the workers - shoring up the false consciousness of the workers that their self-interest lay with the promotion of the class system (remember the old slogan that "what's good for GM is good for America" - nationalism is a good tool for propping up false consciousness as is religion).
ok fair enough. i anticipated a problem with the language so let me try to flesh it out a little more. In reality, none of these terms can absolutely be ascribed to any particular nation. The US is not a pure democracy. China was not a pure communist nation. And a pure dictatorship will always be threatened with revolution.
when i say communism i refer to how it has been applied. lets try to separate theoretical communism from how its actually been implemented. So take china, which you feel is not communism, even though they labeled themselves the Communist Party of China, as communist under Mao for the time being. And lets agree that this is not the same as a capitalist society. The reason I paired capitalism and democracy is on the basis of meritocracy. But I agree the terms cant be interchanged. So now we have two different regimes, and I would argue China right now is moving from one regime to the other because they have been infected with capitalism.
While i agree that there is no inherent nature of man in terms of "greed, materialism" etc. I think this is negletcting the inherent nature of man to be curious. The reason china caught the capitalism bug, in my opinion, stems from Hong Kong. Now in your definition of a true communist state, a place like Hong Kong would never exist. But we already know China is not pure communist. Hong Kong showed the people, and the government, what money could do, and now whats going on in china? capitalism is all the sudden spreading its influence. China went from being a third world starving nation, to a third world starving nation with economic prowess and 1000 fold increase in millionaires over the span of a few decades.
I think this is the natural reaction to the shitty conditions under which many in china lived for so long. they can watch their family toil, or they can go to shanghai and make cash.
I think this grossly overlooks globalization, which is intertwined with Chinas fledgling capitlism, as well as the internet revolutionizing the availability of information. In your pure communist state, what incentive would the people have to block the availability of outside information to themselves? And again, this would only work if people were content with their living conditions.
I think thats why people have such trouble accepting communism. Whether its possible or not isnt the question. Its the fact that from the outside looking in, it only seems to work if its already working.
So yes i admit, using strict definitions, what i said in the other post is not applicable. But the point of myself, and my teacher i think, was that applying general modes of thought and regime, its easy to see how it can turn cyclical, and how there will always be threats to a system that make another system likely to spring forth.
when i say communism i refer to how it has been applied. lets try to separate theoretical communism from how its actually been implemented. So take china, which you feel is not communism, even though they labeled themselves the Communist Party of China, as communist under Mao for the time being. And lets agree that this is not the same as a capitalist society. The reason I paired capitalism and democracy is on the basis of meritocracy. But I agree the terms cant be interchanged. So now we have two different regimes, and I would argue China right now is moving from one regime to the other because they have been infected with capitalism.
While i agree that there is no inherent nature of man in terms of "greed, materialism" etc. I think this is negletcting the inherent nature of man to be curious. The reason china caught the capitalism bug, in my opinion, stems from Hong Kong. Now in your definition of a true communist state, a place like Hong Kong would never exist. But we already know China is not pure communist. Hong Kong showed the people, and the government, what money could do, and now whats going on in china? capitalism is all the sudden spreading its influence. China went from being a third world starving nation, to a third world starving nation with economic prowess and 1000 fold increase in millionaires over the span of a few decades.
I think this is the natural reaction to the shitty conditions under which many in china lived for so long. they can watch their family toil, or they can go to shanghai and make cash.
I think this grossly overlooks globalization, which is intertwined with Chinas fledgling capitlism, as well as the internet revolutionizing the availability of information. In your pure communist state, what incentive would the people have to block the availability of outside information to themselves? And again, this would only work if people were content with their living conditions.
I think thats why people have such trouble accepting communism. Whether its possible or not isnt the question. Its the fact that from the outside looking in, it only seems to work if its already working.
So yes i admit, using strict definitions, what i said in the other post is not applicable. But the point of myself, and my teacher i think, was that applying general modes of thought and regime, its easy to see how it can turn cyclical, and how there will always be threats to a system that make another system likely to spring forth.
@ Stockton
“ Like I said, I'm going to take a biology class and a sociology class next semester. “
Good to know that after next semester we can still count on you not to know anything valid regarding this post. Thanks for that info.
“You bring back people's flaws even though one has already admitted to it, for no apparent reason.”
I gave the reasoning twice now it this thread. You still avoid the questions and continue with the non-sense.
“You look for internet beef, with me, jesse, and whom ever you feel the need to get at."
You really shouldn’t compare yourself with fuckin rice. He may be my number one fan and possess a hard on for me from day one, but he does have at least some basic intellect.
Your bringing up other people’s names just screams “Help me, I’m in over my head! Someone come to my rescue!”
“ Like I said, I'm going to take a biology class and a sociology class next semester. “
Good to know that after next semester we can still count on you not to know anything valid regarding this post. Thanks for that info.
“You bring back people's flaws even though one has already admitted to it, for no apparent reason.”
I gave the reasoning twice now it this thread. You still avoid the questions and continue with the non-sense.
“You look for internet beef, with me, jesse, and whom ever you feel the need to get at."
You really shouldn’t compare yourself with fuckin rice. He may be my number one fan and possess a hard on for me from day one, but he does have at least some basic intellect.
Your bringing up other people’s names just screams “Help me, I’m in over my head! Someone come to my rescue!”
Actually brush up on my evolutionary knowledge and the sociology class can give me a better understanding.
I didn't see anyquestions, this nerd! He'll say a bunch of bullshit, and withing the bullshit, he'll ask me a question like, Is batman strong than superman? Then say, I ignored his question.
I have no intellect according to you and your standards? HAHA, Ok
No, just pointing out, the characteristics of a nerd, if someone agrees, one must separate and allow others to distinguish the agreement, if one spells a word wrong, ALERT! ALERT!, Call a Big Squid, a Giant Squid, it turns into a long debate over nothing.
You have yet to address your nerdiness. There's a difference between a Nerd, and a smart person. Both have great knowledge, but the nerd is a bitch most of the time.
I didn't see anyquestions, this nerd! He'll say a bunch of bullshit, and withing the bullshit, he'll ask me a question like, Is batman strong than superman? Then say, I ignored his question.
I have no intellect according to you and your standards? HAHA, Ok
No, just pointing out, the characteristics of a nerd, if someone agrees, one must separate and allow others to distinguish the agreement, if one spells a word wrong, ALERT! ALERT!, Call a Big Squid, a Giant Squid, it turns into a long debate over nothing.
You have yet to address your nerdiness. There's a difference between a Nerd, and a smart person. Both have great knowledge, but the nerd is a bitch most of the time.
Those aren’t questions?
See above example.
It wont. It is beyond your understanding. Some courses in Political Theory, Comparative Politics, International Relations, Economics, History, International Political Economy, would all be more useful to the discussion of this thread.
You should be casting that stone at your boy Jesse since you like to keep his name in your mouth.
Can you even recall the last time, if ever, I have critiqued someone’s spelling?
Insert my thoughts, which weren't even close, but in the end, even if you lose a debate, which wasn't even close, take in information of the counterpart.
No, cause I am me, and you are not you. This is going to be irrelevant to the debate at hand, I fucking posted a pic of myself in the Sistah side. I work, I pray, I give food and money to the poor *not to brag*, I still kick it with the homies, we still speak about our past dirt, there's is no fake internet personality, still the same old Bible Thumping, quick to inquire, bible thumping hypocrite. When I say hypocrite, it applies to all people, there is no one exempt from it.
I've came a long way since my First post in here. Maybe, I could have said something I learned from someone else, and in the end, discount the old understanding, and apply the new one. How was I made a joke, because 206 Killed me and taught me a lesson about a Social Economy?
No one is as nerdy as you, are they?
No, cause I am me, and you are not you. This is going to be irrelevant to the debate at hand, I fucking posted a pic of myself in the Sistah side. I work, I pray, I give food and money to the poor *not to brag*, I still kick it with the homies, we still speak about our past dirt, there's is no fake internet personality, still the same old Bible Thumping, quick to inquire, bible thumping hypocrite. When I say hypocrite, it applies to all people, there is no one exempt from it.
I've came a long way since my First post in here. Maybe, I could have said something I learned from someone else, and in the end, discount the old understanding, and apply the new one. How was I made a joke, because 206 Killed me and taught me a lesson about a Social Economy?
No one is as nerdy as you, are they?