Alot of people are happy being stupid and selfish....

[Mr. Nice Guy]

And practically how do you see human beings seperating this brain, and nuerons, endorphins, hormones, etc. From the rest of our body so we won't feel pain (in its many forms)? I'm not here to speak semantics of what is reality or what is not, and what the brain and body constitutes and what they produce, cartesian dualism, basic biology or any of that..My point is the human condition is "suffering", as most of us know it, not those into science, transcedentalist, bodis and other assorted "specials", we need a practical way to minimize this suffering.

Well who controls the release chemical and electrical signals to stimulate your neurons?

I think that people continually pushing their bodies beyond the limits of what is considered scientifically possible is testament to our growing ability to eliminate our own self imposed limitations.

Self-immolation by Monks who use to set themselves on fire and sit silently until they died is evidence of our innate abilities to transcend pain.

 

[Dhadnot]

I know that, but seriously the other 5,999,000,000 (of course I don't know the exact figures) people in the world have time to train and study like monks, live as they do, live where they live? Practicality.

 

[Smile]

I know that, but seriously the other 5,999,000,000 (of course I don't know the exact figures) people in the world have time to train and study like monks, live as they do, live where they live? Practicality.

That's why we have an infinite amount of "lives".

This life is not our first or our last.

 

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I know that, but seriously the other 5,999,000,000 (of course I don't know the exact figures) people in the world have time to train and study like monks, live as they do, live where they live? Practicality.

No one said transcending past our human condition would be easy. I was only arguing that it is possible.

I am not sure why this discussion has become about someone "practically" transcending and the subjectivity of "practically" is another debate in and of itself.

My OP is in response to:

reality is what a mind perceives, or how a mind interprets stimuli, but the actuality of things is that we are in a flesh chasis that feels pain and no amount of transcendence talk can destroy that actuality and the effects it brings about.

At that point we weren't debating the practicality of transcendence and I don't know why it has now been thrown in as an afterthought.

So in regards to your original post - I believe the example and the science we are discussing shows that "transcendence talk" can destroy the actuality and absolute nature of pain and any other feeling/emotion or stimuli produced by our own self.

I am not arguing practicality - I am arguing possibility.

 

[HERESY]

That's why we have an infinite amount of "lives".

This life is not our first or our last.

How do you know we have an infinite amount of lives? This aint Contra or the third level of Super Mario Brothers.

 

[HERESY]

No one said transcending past our human condition would be easy. I was only arguing that it is possible.

I am not sure why this discussion has become about someone "practically" transcending and the subjectivity of "practically" is another debate in and of itself.

My OP is in response to:



At that point we weren't debating the practicality of transcendence and I don't know why it has now been thrown in as an afterthought.

So in regards to your original post - I believe the example and the science we are discussing shows that "transcendence talk" can destroy the actuality and absolute nature of pain and any other feeling/emotion or stimuli produced by our own self.

I am not arguing practicality - I am arguing possibility.

Forget all of this. Can the guy stop himself from being burned? No he can't so what is all this transcending talk?

 

[Smile]

How do you know we have an infinite amount of lives? This aint Contra or the third level of Super Mario Brothers.

And how do you know that we do not?

Infinity only exists if you want it to. Living in a perpetual hell is a self-made decision.

 

[HERESY]

And how do you know that we do not?

Infinity only exists if you want it to. Living in a perpetual hell is a self-made decision.

Counter questions and socratic methods won't work here. You're making the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Forget all of this. Can the guy stop himself from being burned? No he can't so what is all this transcending talk?

Is being on fire bad if you don't feel pain?

I don't know if you are purposely trying to introduce a a red herring argument here, but whether or not the guy can stop himself from being burned is totally irrelevant to our current debate about whether the chemical stimuli that we experience is absolute or if we have the ability to transcend beyond it.

The current debate is about whether he must feel the pain we associate with being on fire; not whether or not he can stop himself from being burned.

That is what all this transcending talk is about.

 

[HERESY]

Is being on fire bad if you don't feel pain?

Yes because regardless if you feel the pain or not third degree burns lead to death.

I don't know if you are purposely trying to introduce a a red herring argument here, but whether or not the guy can stop himself from being burned is totally irrelevant to our current debate about whether the chemical stimuli that we experience is absolute or if we have the ability to transcend beyond it.

No, it isn't a red herring as all we're dealing with here is the subject of pain. Regardless of what yourself and others may think, pain involves tissue damage. So ultimately, all this talk about transcending this or that, and not feeling pain is useless if the person can't even stop the damage from taking place. He may be able to stop the sensation but he can't stop the end result which is tissue damage and possible death.

Your claims of red herrings just got flushed, better luck next time.

The current debate is about whether he must feel the pain we associate with being on fire; not whether or not he can stop himself from being burned.

See above.

That is what all this transcending talk is about.

See above.

He hasn't transcended shit if he can't stop his flesh from peeling off his body.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

Yeah, burns arent good for anyone, period. Pain or not, you CAN die from severe burns.

 

[Smile]

Counter questions and socratic methods won't work here. You're making the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

There is no burden of anything here. I choose to live without fear, and I suggest that choice to others because I see how much pain they cause themselves due to the weight of fearing "what happens after this body dies?".

When individuals allow their impressionable minds to become free of any slave-like mentalities, then they finally begin to live for the sake of living rather than for the fear of dying. This alone makes for a constantly evolving community which can give our children and the rest of the universe a nice rebound affect.

Either way Heresy, I cannot materially prove that we have more than one life with this soul, and you cannot prove materially that we do not. That is God's little joke.

 

[Smile]

Btw Heresy, you were speaking of a very scientific materialistic world when you said that if you touch something scalding hot, then you will in fact burn. How do you explain meditative individuals who walk slowly on coals without any prior practice and walk off without any sign of the previous "trauma". What about the individuals who allow deadly poisonous snakes to bite them with only the belief that God will protect them, and they suffer absolutely no consequences?

If anyone wants, I can post stories and findings from anthropologists and other researchers who have witnessed some things that do not fall under "action, cause" understanding and will maybe help individuals who put their whole faith in scientific materialism understand that there is an entire part of their psyche that they are denying.

 

[HERESY]

There is no burden of anything here...Either way Heresy, I cannot materially prove that we have more than one life with this soul, and you cannot prove materially that we do not. That is God's little joke.

There are times where a person can make a claim and not have the burden of proof. However, in this instance the bop is on you. However you said you can't prove it so we'll move on.

Btw Heresy, you were speaking of a very scientific materialistic world when you said that if you touch something scalding hot, then you will in fact burn.

That isn't exactly what I said but ok.

How do you explain meditative individuals who walk slowly on coals without any prior practice and walk off without any sign of the previous "trauma".

David Willey can explain it better than I as he has done much research about the subject.

In addition you can read more here:

http://www.theness.com/the-physics-and-fantasy-of-firewalking/

What about the individuals who allow deadly poisonous snakes to bite them with only the belief that God will protect them, and they suffer absolutely no consequences?

Actually many of them are hospitalized from the bites and some die. Here is such a case:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/ep/snake_bite.htm

 

[Smile]

But many have survived without consequence, how do you explain that?

 

[HERESY]

But many have survived, how do you explain that?

They survived because they were taken to the hospital and recieved treatment, survived because there wasn't enough venom in the body, the person having a tolerance to venom (genetic or from being bitten over long periods of time) etc. You go handling a Fer-de-lance, Taipan or Sea snake, and you get hit with those fangs you're SOL.

 

[Smile]

There are plenty of examples that are not well-known either.

There is the fact that 'possessed' individuals in Santeria and other East-African based religions can endure extreme conditions, like very small petite women becoming possessed by a "male spirit" who enjoys to drink an enormous amount of alcohol straight from the bottle and smoke and entire box of cigars. When the women 'woke up' from the possession she was not physically affected whatsoever and attempted to smoke one cigar later on to test her own self, and she threw up on the 5th hit. She also never drank before the possession.

There is no materialistic explanation to that one.

 

[HERESY]

There are plenty of examples that are not well-known either.

Examples of what? Someone being bitten by a snake and surviving? Yes, I'm sure people have survived snake bites, my father survived a bite from a rattler. Was he in pain? Yes. Unless someone has something going on with their genetic code, I highly doubt they are going to suffer a bite from a venomous snake and feel no adverse side effects.

There is the fact that 'possessed' individuals in Santeria and other East-African based religions can endure extreme conditions, like very small petite women becoming possessed by a "male spirit" who enjoys to drink an enormous amount of alcohol straight from the bottle and smoke and entire box of cigars. When the women 'woke up' from the possession she was not physically affected whatsoever and attempted to smoke one cigar later on to test her own self, and she threw up on the 5th hit. She also never drank before the possession.

I'm very familiar with Santeria and most religions period. In regards to what you're talking about, it can easily be explained by suggestive techniques/the power of influence or hypnosis. I wasn't there so I can't comment on the situation and say it was a fraud, etc.

There is no materialistic explanation to that one.

Sure there is. There is always an explanation. The only thing is you may or may not know about it. I may or may not know about it. That is how the world works.

Now let me ask you a question, do you believe Benny Hinn or any preacher on TV can lay hands on the sick and heal them?

 

[Smile]

Now let me ask you a question, do you believe Benny Hinn or any preacher on TV can lay hands on the sick and heal them?

I believe its all within the person, since we are connected as one, the outside physical person is only helping the person access whats already within them.

 

[HERESY]

I believe its all within the person, since we are connected as one, the outside physical person is only helping the person access whats already within them.

Even though time and time again these people are caught faking it? Do you ever see these people going to burn shelters or visting children dying of cancer and healing them? Do you ever see them visiting homeless vets and telling them to rise, pick up their sleeping bags and walk?